sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
dnaleor has quit [Client Quit]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
intcat has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intcat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wizkid057 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
CheckDavid has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jb55 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
PaulCapestany has quit [Quit: .]
PaulCapestany has joined #bitcoin-wizards
asok_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
d4de has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PaulCapestany has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
PaulCapestany has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
LeMiner has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner
PaulCapestany has quit [Quit: .]
PaulCapestany has joined #bitcoin-wizards
intcat has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intcat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<puff>
Good evening.
<puff>
I'm trying to understand sidechains better. I said earlier that as far as I could tell, they seem like glorified payment channels (which is not to dismiss their value) but then somebody said that's all wrong. I'm still trying to figure it out, but few of the sources I've read present a significantly different explanation from that.
<puff>
I mean sure, maybe they're not exactly like payment channels, but they're pretty damn close, at least in what I've read so far.
<sipa>
Perhaps explain what you think the similarity with payment channels is?
oleganza has quit [Quit: oleganza]
mn3monic has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<kanzure>
puff probably means a sidechain where the bitcoin miners aren't participating?
oleganza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<sipa>
At least technically speaking they're very different.
<sipa>
Perhaps the type of thing they could accomplish is similar, based on what your goals are.
<sipa>
But that's hard to say without knowing where you're coming from.
<puff>
sipa: Okay, well, let me use a metaphor... here's an obvious, but very not-cryptocurrency way to do it: set up an go-between website (I want to call this an exchange but I'm not certain how exchanges actually operate, whether they merge incoming transactions or just maintain effectively separate wallets for each of their user, etc).
<puff>
So you send money to an address that belongs to the go-between site, then you and somebody else use whatever private transaction mechanism via the go-between site.
oleganza has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<puff>
Now obviously that sucks, in terms of security, etc.
<kanzure>
sidechains aren't just escrow
<puff>
Right. As I said, that was a metaphor.
<sipa>
that sounds pretty close to a federated sidechain model, actually
<puff>
Now obviously that sucks, in terms of security, etc. Instead, you build something quite similar in effect, only you make the crossover between bitcoin and the go-between site cryptographically secure.
<sipa>
puff: you haven't described what the goal is, though
<puff>
In a manner similar to payment channels, i.e. you cross over by creating a transaction that locks some bitcoins until the business at the go-between site is done.
<sipa>
but why would you do this?
<puff>
Which is where I find it similar to payment channels.
<sipa>
why would you use a payment channel? they're a means to accomplish something. what is that?
<puff>
If you use the simplistic example I gave above, then you're trusting the go-between site.
<sipa>
(i'm not trying to be contrarian, just trying to make you explain your thinking)
<puff>
Payment channels are yet another poorly named bitcoin thing :-).
<sipa>
are you using them because of higher capacity? better privacy? particular features? smart contracts? lower fees?
<puff>
But basically they're a way to have a mostly-private transaction conversation, without inflicting every one of those transactions on the bitcoin network. Commonly suggested as a way to implement micropayments. Or possibly I completely misunderstand them.
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<puff>
They're an _approach_, rather than a way, etc.
<sipa>
ok, offloading the public network is your goal
<puff>
At least as defined in the bitcoin wiki entry on payment channels.
d4de has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<sipa>
that is something i guess private sidechains and payment channels have in common
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<puff>
I don't have a goal at all, except perhaps to understand what these sidechains are that everybod's talking about.
<sipa>
i don't think they apply to public sidechains - as those too effectively require every participants to see those too
<puff>
Well as I understand payment channels,it's not so much about privacy as about performance.
<puff>
Performance in the general sense.
<puff>
a) small transactions, b) frequent updates, c) not increasing load (and having to pay for it) on the main bitcoin network.
<sipa>
payment channels offload public transactions from the network, but in exchange get an addition security assumption (that you won't be censored when trying to settle on chain)
<puff>
Though I'm sure that once you have a basic foundation for sidechain implemented, you can come up with many more interesting variations.
<puff>
sipa: Can you expand on that?
<sipa>
federated sidechains offload public transactions, but in exchange you give the federation the ability to keep your pegged coins locked up
<puff>
Ah, okay, so they're not quite as safe as a payment channel would be.
Emcy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<sipa>
merged-mined sidehcain offload public transactions _to another public network_, and in exchange give miners the ability to take your money
<puff>
Has anybody ever actually implemented payment channels?
<sipa>
there is no separate chain involved in lightning
<puff>
Ah, okay, then I must have misread something.
<sipa>
sidechains, in my view, are a way to experiment with new blockchain technology without first needing to create a new currency
<sipa>
but they don't really give you any scaling advantages
<sipa>
there are still chains involved that need publishing and validation
<puff>
Interesting.
<sipa>
payment channels are different in that there are no published transactions for all the payments - they're kept private between the participants, and they only publish an aggregated transaction that represents multiple transactions
<puff>
Sure, that's clearly different about payment channels. The main similarity I see is that payment channels cryptographically lock the coins, and I would have assumed a sidechain did something similar.
<sipa>
there is some similarity with private federated sidechains
<puff>
Do you have a pointer to a good description of private federated sidechains?
<sipa>
except those are just between a small number of fixed participants
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<puff>
Ah.
<sipa>
it's like this... hey puff and i are going to be transferring money between eachother very often, let's lock up some coins on the main chain that both of us always have to sign off on
<sipa>
and we can create our own "chain" with updates to our balances
intcat has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<sipa>
the disadvantage is: it's just between the two of us (or 3, or 4, or 20, but 10000), and there is no way to settle in case one of the parties goes offline... so you really only want to do it with entities you know in real life and can go after if they hold your coins hostage
priidu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intcat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<sipa>
the advantage is: you're not restricted to bitcoin-like technology in the sidechain - it can be anything you come up, as long as all participants agree on it
<sipa>
which is great if you want to experiment with new technology
<sipa>
lightning doesn't let you do that... lightning payments _are_ bitcoin transactions - just most of them aren't published
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<puff>
Ok... Either I'm missing something, or I'm oversimplifying something, because that sounds a whole lot like a payment channel to me. I can see, a payment channel with more supporting code/infrastructure, so you have a private blockchain-like structure instead of just mailing updated half-signed transactions back and forth...
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<sipa>
yes, i agree
<sipa>
but that's not what people usually mean when they're talking about sidechains
blackwraith has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<kanzure>
also, many sidechains have consensus requirements on the bitcoin side (miners that merge-mine, especially for extension blocks and other "self-contained" universes)
<sipa>
*but not 10000
<puff>
Clearly I need to keep reading on this, thanks for your help and if you have any specific resources to recommend, I'm all eyes.
<puff>
sipa: ?
<puff>
sipa: "* but not 10000"?
<sipa>
01:30:02 < sipa> the disadvantage is: it's just between the two of us (or 3, or 4, or 20, but 10000), and there is no way to settle in case one of the parties goes offline... so you really only want to do it
<puff>
ah.
<sipa>
with entities you know in real life and can go after if they hold your coins hostage
<sipa>
^ i meant "but not 10000" there
<puff>
okay.
<puff>
Is there a general term for the lightning network and raiden and etc?
<nkel>
puff: you mentioned exchanges earlier, they are not side-chains, there's nothing decentralized or public about their internal accounting; the only public aspects are the ingress and egress transactions between off-exchange wallets and the exchange's wallets
sipa has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
<nkel>
puff: there are a few decentralized attempts using hashed time locks, but they run into front-running problems as well as problems of crossed-books and trade-through
<puff>
nkel: Absolutely. Look at the comment where I mentioned them, it started with "Okay, let me use a metaphor..."
<puff>
nkel: So do exchanges commonly present to the rest of the bitcoin network as one monolithic bitcoin user, so to speak?
<puff>
nkel: The "few decentralized attempts", do you mean attempts at exchanges? Or attempts at sidechains?
<nkel>
puff: attempts at decentralized exchanges
<puff>
ah, thanks.
<puff>
That would be an interesting topic to have a deep conversation about sometime, but I'm trying to keep my focus...
<nkel>
puff: side-chains work fine, but your funds are inaccessible for the duration of the HTLC
<nkel>
by 'your funds' I'm referring to only the portion sent to the side-chain
<puff>
Right.
<puff>
ok
<nkel>
although I would disagree with sipa calling side-chains like lightning as 'bitcoin transactions', if a side-chain is the same protocol as the main-chain it's sharding, an lightning isn't a sharded version of bitcoin
<nkel>
the ethereum analogue of lightning is raiden, but while they'll use raiden as a stop-gap solution, vitalik's long-term goal is sharding
<nkel>
not that I endorse sharding for bitcoin, but just pointing out the distinction between side-chains and sharding
<nkel>
s/side-chain/off-chain channels/g
Belkaar has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has quit [Changing host]
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<puff>
I thought sipa (or somebody) said lightning *isn't* a sidechain...
<maaku>
puff: it isn't...
<puff>
maaku: what's the key distinction?
<maaku>
puff: they are entirely different concepts, apples to oranges. you should probably take this to #bitcoin
intcat has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zshlyk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Murch has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
zshlyk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zshlyk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
priidu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jaromil has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zshlyk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zshlyk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
son0p has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wizkid057 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nephyrin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kenshi84 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
kenshi84 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
son0p has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
oleganza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zshlyk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zshlyk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zshlyk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zshlyk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
son0p has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
son0p has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 has quit [*.net *.split]
anon616 has quit [*.net *.split]
StopAndDecrypt_ has quit [*.net *.split]
AkiraZI has quit [*.net *.split]
harrow` has quit [*.net *.split]
brianhoffman has quit [*.net *.split]
stqism has quit [*.net *.split]
bxbxb has quit [*.net *.split]
JayDugger has quit [*.net *.split]
nickler has quit [*.net *.split]
vicenteH has quit [*.net *.split]
yorick has quit [*.net *.split]
aem has quit [*.net *.split]
luny has quit [*.net *.split]
brand0 has quit [*.net *.split]
bjorn[m] has quit [*.net *.split]
augoeides[m] has quit [*.net *.split]
nejon has quit [*.net *.split]
NicolasDorier has quit [*.net *.split]
mappum has quit [*.net *.split]
prosody has quit [*.net *.split]
nkel has quit [*.net *.split]
stoffu has quit [*.net *.split]
mryandao has quit [*.net *.split]
yongu has quit [*.net *.split]
brutefruit has quit [*.net *.split]
ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split]
Jeremy_Rand[m] has quit [*.net *.split]
airbreather_ has quit [*.net *.split]
BashCo has quit [*.net *.split]
kabaum has quit [*.net *.split]
Provoostenator has quit [*.net *.split]
Gurgulor has quit [*.net *.split]
Intensity has quit [*.net *.split]
[d__d] has quit [*.net *.split]
Nightwolf has quit [*.net *.split]
ryanofsky has quit [*.net *.split]
Chicago has quit [*.net *.split]
gnusha has quit [*.net *.split]
Apocalyptic has quit [*.net *.split]
mesh_ has quit [*.net *.split]
DougieBot5000 has quit [*.net *.split]
Pilfers has quit [*.net *.split]
devrandom has quit [*.net *.split]
hkjn0 has quit [*.net *.split]
Giszmo has quit [*.net *.split]
keymone has quit [*.net *.split]
gribble has quit [*.net *.split]
trippysalmon has quit [*.net *.split]
d9b4bef9 has quit [*.net *.split]
murchandamus has quit [*.net *.split]
Cory has quit [*.net *.split]
josephpoon has quit [*.net *.split]
kallewoof has quit [*.net *.split]
wizkid057 has quit [*.net *.split]
superkuh has quit [*.net *.split]
othe has quit [*.net *.split]
dEBRUYNE has quit [*.net *.split]
herzmeister[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
yoleaux has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds]
kewde[m] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
keymone has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pilfers has joined #bitcoin-wizards
murchandamus has joined #bitcoin-wizards
trippysalmon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
triazo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gribble has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Apocalyptic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hkjn0 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
devrandom has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mesh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spectra| has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ChanServ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gribble has quit [Excess Flood]
musalbas has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
wizkid057 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
betawaffle has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wumpus has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dhoulihan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mlz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mr_burdell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
othe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
superkuh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c40d9b0743a91f40 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
modin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
morcos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
markus-k has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Jaamg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
achow101 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mrkent has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kabaum has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Provoostenator has joined #bitcoin-wizards
[d__d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Gurgulor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Nightwolf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryanofsky has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chicago has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gnusha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Intensity has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AkiraZI has joined #bitcoin-wizards
yorick has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brianhoffman has joined #bitcoin-wizards
anon616 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nickler has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrow` has joined #bitcoin-wizards
StopAndDecrypt_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JayDugger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stqism has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bxbxb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vicenteH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
luny has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aem has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qawap has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryan-c has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TD-Linux has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jephalien_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
a5m0 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kallewoof has joined #bitcoin-wizards
josephpoon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Cory has joined #bitcoin-wizards
stiell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Belkaar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
a5m0 has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
zshlyk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]