<rqou> so according to google unix command line arguments are null-terminated byte sequences
<rqou> so i guess i'll implement the "you must create mojibake" solution :P
<rqou> i might rethink this if i ever get to the "integrate with yosys" stage
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<flaviusb> pointfree: Super cool. Thank you very much.
<flaviusb> pointfree: Most of my interest is in HDLs that do not involve any Verilog or VHDL at any point, not even as intermediate compilation targets.
<flaviusb> pointfree: Forth is not a language I enjoy at all, but it is ∞ times better than VHDL or Verilog in terms of actually being specified and having a semantics.
<flaviusb> Given that I eventually want to write my own language and tools in this space, seeing already existing working stuff is good, especially if it has a compatible license so I can potentially use it.
<flaviusb> Speaking of which, what license is your stuff released under?
<pointfree> flaviusb: Forth is interactive, yet it's not great at the unplanned spontaneous computing that I need for my application. I'm moving this Forthy HDL in the direction of something more like a filtering/dataflow oriented concatenative language without adding any baked-in syntax.
<flaviusb> Very cool.
<pointfree> flaviusb: My favorite license is AGPLv3, but that makes me very unpopular, so I'm considering going with Mozilla Public License 2.0 because it's a soft source activated (not linker activated) copyleft while still explicitly designed to be compatible with other licenses as needed. This is going into a reverse engineering tool (a physical hardware product),
<pointfree> so I figure I have to make some kind of pragmatic compromise here. Thoughts?
<flaviusb> pointfree: Well, the stuff I do myself is all GPLv3, though I have considered AGPLv3. You can always offer license exemptions if people pay for a license.
<flaviusb> I am not sure how hardware etc works with this though.
<davidc___> practically, it depends on who you want it used by. $BIGCO lawyers are like skittish animals; takes a lot for them to get "used" to a new/off-the-beaten-path license, even if its just internal type usage
<davidc___> so, if you want wide use, use one of the common ones
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<davidc___> OTOH, if you are most worried about people ripping you off, use whatever you feel most comfortable with :)
<flaviusb> Also, even license exemptions won't always satisfy decision makers in $COMPANY. I wrote a GPLv3 library to do a thing on my own time, and was willing to offer a client of my employer a license exemption to use it because of how much easier it would make my life; they were not willing to go for it though.
<davidc___> my usual rule of thumb is one of GPLv2-or-later, LGPL..., or 3-clause-bsd , since everyone knows how to deal with those
<pointfree> flaviusb: I really do think GPLv3 is the way to go, and that AGPLv3 is the rightful GPLv3. As a developer, I think GPL means I can earn money writing free software while the MIT license usually means I can at best be paid to use it. It also means I can stay on top of the development as long as I don't screw up and cross the users in some way. That said, I
<pointfree> feel a very strong social pressure against using GPL.
<flaviusb> Also, one persons pragmatism is another persons poison - what are you trying to achieve with this project? It may be that slightly lower adoption but stronger copyleft is better for your goals.
<flaviusb> Ah, cool.
<flaviusb> Yeah, my confusion around AGPLv3 is mostly that I don't know how it 'should' work around hardware, whereas in pure software projects it is fairly straightforward.
<davidc___> oh wait, this is for HDL/etc, not traditional software?
<flaviusb> Well, in the case we are talking about it is a weird HDL + HDL generation + hardware + software driving the hardware mix.
<pointfree> yeah
<pointfree> Is, say, a uart a network connection under AGPLv3?
<flaviusb> Exactly. Or what about a probe?
<flaviusb> Fabric interconnect is probably intended to be covered, but you kindof already get that from 'derivative work'.
<pointfree> I think this would be an interesting question to ask in #conservancy because they are the people that actually enforce the GPL.
<flaviusb> 'Open Source semiconductor core licensing': http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/articles/pdf/v25/25HarvJLTech131.pdf looks like it may be interesting as well.
<cyrozap> IMO the AGPL is far too ambiguous
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<cyrozap> And supposedly, if users aren't directly interacting with the AGPL'd software (i.e., a database server that is queried by a proprietary web application), then there's both no requirement to AGPL the proprietary app and no requirement to give the AGPL'd server source code to the users of the proprietary app, even if you changed the AGPL'd code.
<cyrozap> So, it's really only useful for applications users interact with directly.
<cyrozap> But then, the only thing that gives the users is the ability to run the code on their own servers, so I guess maybe it's good to prevent vendor lock-in of networked applications?
<pointfree> My keyboard has a USB connection to my computer... is that a network connection...?
<cyrozap> Exactly
<cyrozap> And what if you share that AGPL'd USB device with someone else? Do you need to give them the source then, since while they don't own the device, they're using it over a network?
<davidc___> yeah, I think the only way that could work would be to make the build process stuff the source into a tarball which is then exposed back on a USB-mass-storage device
<davidc___> a semi-quine, I guess
<cyrozap> I prefer to use the GPLv3 for firmware I write (and occasionally weak-copyleft/permissive for simple libraries), and I prefer it over GPLv2+ because of the anti-Tivoization clause. If a user purchases a product with my firmware, they should be permitted (both legally and technically) to replace that firmware--no exceptions.
<cyrozap> davidc___: Well, if the firmware is compiled verbatim from online sources, you could just provide a link.
<cyrozap> I just think it would be silly to have to share the source for firmware running on a device you own--it would make sharing the device itself more of a hassle than if the firmware were completely proprietary.
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<rqou> blargh, i keep not getting work done because i'm watching my housemate play "the weeb game with fanservice androids" :P :P
<lain> which game is this now
<rqou> nier automata
<rqou> lain: was my description inadequately specific? :P
<lain> I don't really follow most games
<lain> hadn't heard of that one
<cyrozap> rqou: I was wondering where I heard of that game before... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhDL3Q86ofY
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<rqou> lol I don't actually have that game
<rqou> only my housemate does
<rqou> it seems to be reasonably good and has actual plot rather than just "plot"
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<azonenberg> rqou: "android crashes on boot when running from SD card"? :p
<rqou> hopefully these vidya androids don't run Android :P
<rqou> my housemate said: they definitely don't run Dalvik, they move too fast for that :P
<azonenberg> looool
<rqou> i assume you and/or your $WIFE have played this? :P
<rqou> it's a square enix game, so it's definitely good for the weebs :P :P
<azonenberg> no i have not
<azonenberg> never heard of it
<azonenberg> She's trying to convince me to buy the new zelda console though
<rqou> apparently the pc port (recompile?) came out recently
<rqou> the "zelda console?" it's not _that_ much of a failure yet :P
<azonenberg> Lol did i say it was a failure?
<azonenberg> i just said it ran zelda :p
<rqou> and allegedly freebsd+musl? :P :P
<jn__> freebsd network stack + ninty custom OS + musl
<rqou> unfortunately afaik it doesn't have any pcie on the pcb?
<rqou> i want to see another pcie 0.0005x :P
<jn__> :D
<jn__> the eMMC is removable, that's pretty nice
<rqou> reset glitching the nvtboot (or equivalent) is an acceptable hack too :P :P
<jn__> (and webkit is a stable branch from half a year ago, but i guess you've heard that already)
<oeuf> grmph why am I back to the french nick
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<egg|egg> rqou: how goes the VHDL?
<rqou> basically i'm saying "let's rop webkit" is a) boring b) doesn't give low-level enough access
<jn__> i'd read that write up ("glitching the nvtboot")
<rqou> egg|egg: "blargh, i keep not getting work done because i'm watching my housemate play 'the weeb game with fanservice androids'"
<egg|egg> :D
<rqou> i don't even have a switch right now
<rqou> too many projects, too little time
<egg|egg> I've heard good things about it in rock paper shotgun
<rqou> i've basically only heard about a) use of musl b) presence of denatonium benzoate(?) in the cartridges
<rqou> :P
<jn__> rqou: there's stagefright in zelda, but i guess noone has written an exploit yet
<rqou> hrm, i want to actually try glitching nvtboot, but i don't want to break my $300 jetson tx1
<jn__> (and it might not be practicle, because you'd have to inject the media files somehow)
<rqou> and i don't want to run out and buy a switch either
<egg|egg> rqou: I meant the androids game
<egg|egg> rqou: not the case statement device
<rqou> oh
<rqou> yeah, i said earlier that it managed to have both "plot" and actual plot :P
<egg|egg> what's "plot"?
<rqou> "plot" is internet slang for fanservice
<egg|egg> (wait, since that's a quote, should wrap the quoted thing in quotes? what's """plot""")
<jn__> '"plot"'
<egg|egg> "\"plot\""
<rqou> supposedly evolved out of "reading playboy magazine for the articles"
<rqou> egg|egg: now i'm curious whether you normally play video games in english or french
<egg|egg> so, I used to buy them in french, back when I did so in stores made of brick and mortar and dimension stone and concrete and reinforcement bar erm wait, I'm getting sidetracked
<rqou> in general i'm a bit curious whether the non-english-as-L1 people here tend to prefer english or localized software when the localizations aren't very good
<rqou> obviously the "proper" solution is "make the localization better"
<egg|egg> so, e.g., Age of Empires, Age of Empires II, Rise of Nations, I have in french
<rqou> but the ROI (thanks capitalism!) for that isn't too great
<egg|egg> now I tend to prefer my computers to speak English
<jn__> (oh, L1 means "first language"? i read it has in L1 cache, and took that as a metaphor for the brain)
<egg|egg> I haven't had too many issues with bad localization when my computers spoke English though
<egg|egg> s/English/French
<rqou> right, L1 meaning first language
* egg|egg cannot into brain
<rqou> it's a linguistics term
<egg|egg> rqou: I used to code with french identifiers too
<rqou> right, i assume french/german/chinese/other "large markets" are probably ok
<egg|egg> my Ada IDE on windows was crap for that, it capitalized the letter after an accented letter
<egg|egg> (if you can the pretty-printer it fixed the capitalization)
<egg|egg> but as you typed it would be capitalized wrong
<rqou> i don't know how well localizations for less popular languages like welsh or zulu would work
<egg|egg> badly probably
<egg|egg> so I've written VB6, VB .NET, and Ada 95 in french; then I think C# in English, some more Ada 95 in English, and from then on all my programming has been in English
<rqou> chinese was/is lots of fun because zh_CN and zh_TW use very different words for various technical/computer terms
<egg|egg> (comments in latin and names in their original script don't count as non-english for that discussion)
<rqou> also, due to "geopolitical issues" sometimes people don't even do zh_TW and make zh_HK try to do double-duty as both
<rqou> egg|egg: how strong are people's opinions about different dialects/regional varieties of french?
<rqou> geopolitical issues can always make localization lots and lots of fun
<egg|egg> so inside of france you don't need to localize for the various bits of france, they sometimes speak funny, but that will be recognized as funny things on top of "standard french" (what with parisians thinking that the part of france outside of paris is the suburbs of paris)
<egg|egg> to french eyes the canadians speak a weird kind of french, but I guess there it might matter to localize for them? the swiss or belgians are close enough (they don't say the numbers in the same way so sometimes that's confusing)
<rqou> right, iirc quebec french has different sorting and/or capitalization rules?
<egg|egg> with switzerland you have a few words that change but generally it's just a weird accent and a couple of odd wordings, no real understandability issues
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<egg|egg> dunno, I don't speak that french
<rqou> and what happens with all the countries in africa that also use french?
<rqou> "too bad, market not big enough?" :P
<egg|egg> e.g. in switzerland they will say "manteau de pluie" (lit. "rain coat") for raincoat, whereas we'll say "imperméable" (meaning "impermeable")
<egg|egg> rqou: for the africans... probably :-p (though I would think they might be closer to france's french than the canadians, colonization isn't that old)
<egg|egg> (also we shorten "imperméable" to "imper" when it means raincoat)
<egg|egg> anyway, if anyone here aside whitequark who already knows is interested is principia (the KSP mod), we'll be doing a release on the new moon (now with axial tilt! and conservation laws enforced when not under thrust!)
<rqou> hrm, thinking about it zh_HK localization must be really fun too
<rqou> so there's cantonese and mandarin, which are "dialects"
<egg|egg> (lunar releases is clearly the sanest cycle)
<rqou> and both are technically official in HK
<rqou> but they're about as related to each other as e.g. french and spanish
<rqou> but they share the same set of written characters
<rqou> and if you were to take "the words you would use in mandarin" and change them to cantonese pronunciation, that is often "acceptable"
<rqou> so what should your localization target be?
<rqou> i've seen it done by just saying "zh_HK is zh_CN (mainland) but with traditional characters instead of simplified"
<rqou> that "works" but isn't the "best" localization possible
<rqou> (of course the old answer back in the dark ages was that HK was Big5 and CN was GB2312, but it's best not to talk about that era :P )
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<rqou> request for opinions: how should I display to the user vhdl extended identifiers that contain non-breaking spaces or soft hyphens?
<rqou> (yes, they may actually contain those)
<rqou> egg|egg: can Ada do that?
<egg|egg> uh
<egg|egg> rqou: where the categories are defined in http://www.adaic.org/resources/add_content/standards/05rm/html/RM-2-1.html
<egg|egg> which is based on "the documents referenced by the note in section 1 of ISO/IEC 10646:2003" :D
<rqou> right, Ada has been made Unicode-aware
<rqou> and it doesn't have "extended identifiers"
<egg|egg> what's an extended identifier
<rqou> vhdl has a new hack where you can use backslashes to escape identifiers that contain otherwise-forbidden characters
<rqou> they're also case-sensitive and never equal to a basic identifier
<egg|egg> rqou: so in the Punctuation, Connector category, you have that http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/Pc/list.htm
<rqou> so you can have foo, \foo\, \FOO\, \Foo\ and they're all different
<egg|egg> which are legal except as the first character of an identifier
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<rqou> huh, so Ada can also have soft hyphens
<rqou> but they're basically ignored
<egg|egg> ah yes, that's Other, Format
<rqou> in vhdl they're significant
<rqou> how should I print them?
<egg|egg> aaaaaaaaaa
<egg|egg> rqou: by the way, The semantics of an Ada program whose text is not in Normalization Form KC (as defined by section 24 of ISO/IEC 10646:2003) is implementation defined.
<egg|egg> << so it requires NFKC
<egg|egg> which means that 𝖘𝖔 : Lie_Algebra; is implementation-defined :-\ (since the mathematical alphabets NFKC to basic latin)
<rqou> right, but we've already gone over how vhdl is iso latin1
<egg|egg> yeah, yeah
<rqou> aka wrong :P
<egg|egg> indeed
<rqou> although you can potentially make a really hacky editor that encodes comments as utf-8 but the rest of the text as latin-1
<rqou> that's allowed
<egg|egg> (also, I'm going to work in i18n starting in april, so I'll get to do this madness and get paid for it?)
<rqou> i don't even want to be doing i18n right now
<rqou> thanks vhdl for being broken
<egg|egg> ha
<rqou> at least it didn't mandate utf16le with bom
<rqou> unlike a Certain Vendor that seems to really like doing that
<rqou> afaik this Certain Vendor can even accept c code encoded as utf16le
<rqou> afaik it's the only compiler that does so
<egg|egg> MSVC?
<rqou> yeah
<egg|egg> MSVC will do UTF-8 too, but it wants a bom :-p
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> not sure which is worse: utf16le c code or "headers already sent"
<egg|egg> what's that
<rqou> an absolutely hilarious php failure case
<rqou> so php can act as a shitty templating engine, right?
<rqou> so stuff in the <? ?> tags is php, but the rest is passed straight through
<rqou> what happens if your php file starts with a utf-8 bom?
<rqou> it's invisible to most editors on a Certain Platform
<rqou> but php sees the bytes and sends them
<rqou> then your php code tries to return a new http header
<rqou> whoops
<rqou> "somebody set us up the (utf-8) bom"
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<rqou> there is now an appropriate stackoverflow answer regarding this, but before stackoverflow
<rqou> back when there were just "web forums"
<rqou> the canonical answer was "herp derp idk, i made a new file and copied all of the contents over. it works now"
<rqou> this helps explain the prevalence of double-utf-8 btw
<rqou> i wonder how much of the world's double-utf-8 was caused by some combination of a) windows b) php
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<rqou> blargh my messed up sleep cycle means that it is now too late to go and buy clam chowder from the friendly neighborhood local business owner :P
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