<whitequark> cr1901_modern: 802.3 is ~ethernet
<whitequark> 802.11 is wifi
<whitequark> (802.3 is not strictly speaking ethernet, it uses different framing. length instead of ethertype plus a 802.2 LLC header)
<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: 802.3 is still the umbrella standard for the Ethernet PHY and MAC layer though
<azonenberg_hk> Even if Ethernet II link layer framing is not specified there
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<whitequark> sure
<whitequark> just wanted to be precise here; I made this mistake specifying my stack :p
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<rqou> blarrgh my firefox is lagging again due to 11g virtual memory used
<rqou> i really need to pull an azonenberg_hk and start segmenting my browsers
<azonenberg_hk> i never let a browser use more than ~3GB physical mem
<rqou> that's incompatible with my tab habits :P
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<azonenberg_hk> I have lots of tabs but periodically close and restart browsers
<azonenberg_hk> So older tabs don't get reloaded
<azonenberg_hk> I also compartmentalize so i don't have too many things per browser
<rqou> i should compartmentalize more
<rqou> i've been doing it with the amazingly documented firefox profiles
<azonenberg_hk> I also did a massive cleanout recently
<azonenberg_hk> closed like 200 tabs in one browser
<azonenberg_hk> Still more to go but it was progess
<rqou> i've noticed that media playing sucks up ram really quickly
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<azonenberg_hk> not as bad as twitter does
<azonenberg_hk> or facebook
<rqou> but i thought garbage collection meant that web developers don't have to think about memory?! :P
<whitequark> I mean, they don't *have* to
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<azonenberg_hk> It's not THEIR ram
<azonenberg_hk> Just like the cloud
<azonenberg_hk> the client is somebody else's computer :p
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<azonenberg_hk> And another feature nears completion
<azonenberg_hk> external inputs to GP_VREF blocks
<azonenberg_hk> Not yet tested
<azonenberg_hk> but should be pushed to my branch in a few mins
<azonenberg_hk> I'll have lots of testing to do when i get back to a dev board lol
<whitequark> nice
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<cr1901> 802.3 vs 802.11... oops... well, there goes that bad pun
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<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: when you get a chance http://pastebin.com/uKT6Zwwf can you test?
<azonenberg_hk> Expected: pin 19 = pin 10/2
<azonenberg_hk> pin 18 = pin 14/2
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<azonenberg_hk> (Or anybody else who has a slg46620v handy)
<whitequark> I really need a multimeter
<whitequark> again sitting at home and no scope...
<whitequark> maybe tomorrow evening?
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<azonenberg_hk> no rush
<azonenberg_hk> It's just one of the things that somebody has to test before I merge these to the main branch
<azonenberg_hk> i mean i'm not merging until i get home anyway, but the less i have to test the better
<azonenberg_hk> once i get home i'll write a HiL test case for it
<azonenberg_hk> but if there's any obvious bugs i might as well fix them now
<rqou> do i need a voltage source for this?
<whitequark> you can use the vendor tool, which lets you configure all siggens independently
<whitequark> .... or implement that for gp4prog yourself :p
<whitequark> (it's trivial)
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<azonenberg_hk> rqou: just a multimeter and the devkit
<azonenberg_hk> or a bit of code and the devkit
<azonenberg_hk> it has an ADC on it, but it's not exposed to the UI anywhere
<azonenberg_hk> the ADC also tops out at 1V
<azonenberg_hk> So you cant measure anything above that
<azonenberg_hk> Which is a bit annoying
<rqou> pin 19 isn't able to get above ~1.5 V
<rqou> otherwise it is pin 10 voltage / 2
<rqou> same with the other pair
<rqou> azonenberg_hk:
<rqou> both pin pairs have half the voltage until the output pin hits a bit over 1.5 V
<rqou> then it stops increasing
<rqou> but otherwise it works
<azonenberg_hk> yeah i think there is a limit internally somewhere
<azonenberg_hk> So good
<rqou> the greenpak tools are not the most intuitive :P
<azonenberg_hk> Yeah lol
<azonenberg_hk> also looking at the datasheet
<azonenberg_hk> the vref is only supposed to work up to 1.2V
<whitequark> hah
<azonenberg_hk> so i guess it's a bit past that :p
<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: one of my longer term TODOs is a lot more DRCing
<azonenberg_hk> Lol
<azonenberg_hk> For example i just noticed in the datasheet that bandgap POR delay 100 us is only allowed for Vdd >= 2.7V
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<azonenberg_hk> presumably because at lower Vdd the charge pump takes a little time to reach a stable voltage for the analog stuff
<azonenberg_hk> So i'm going to require you to specify a voltage range in gp4par
<whitequark> sure, that makes sense
<azonenberg_hk> both for timing analysis and DRCing
<azonenberg_hk> After all, timing is extremely voltage dependent in greenpak
<azonenberg_hk> 5-3.3 isnt so big a deal (maybe 30-50%) but 3.3-1.8 is a huge slowdown (3-4x)
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<azonenberg_hk> Also wow this channel is really picking up steam
<azonenberg_hk> just noticed we have 75 people in here lol
<azonenberg_hk> Even including four duplicates and two bots, that's quite a few folks
<azonenberg_hk> i imagine once the greenpak toolchain hits a feature-complete beta, or we release something for another chip, it'll be even more
<rqou> offtopic: who wants to see how much I sucked at HDL 6 years ago? https://github.com/rqou/propclone :P
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<whitequark> >vhdl
<rqou> yes
<whitequark> /thread
<whitequark> :p
<rqou> i hate you :P
<rqou> but yeah, the date is accurate
<rqou> april 2010
<rqou> wow i'm getting old
<whitequark> hahaha
<whitequark> aren't we all
<azonenberg_hk> Lol
<azonenberg_hk> I looked at one of my first fpga projects from around then a while ago too
<azonenberg_hk> was pretty horrified :p
<azonenberg_hk> But it wasnt TOO bad
<azonenberg_hk> I *did* manage to fit a uart, 8-bit CPU, and 32 channels of PWM
<azonenberg_hk> in an xc3s50a
<azonenberg_hk> the pcb though... eeew
<whitequark> my cpu project from 2012 is remarkably not that bad: https://github.com/whitequark/bfcpu2
<whitequark> it's rather simple though
<azonenberg_hk> 2-layer expresspcb
<azonenberg_hk> lol
<azonenberg_hk> with an xc3s50a in 100tqfp
<whitequark> and I managed to forget everything about synchronous logic since then somehow
<nats`> azonenberg_hk it's always a good things to look at old project :)
<nats`> it allows to see how much you learnt
<whitequark> had to relearn it like half a year ago when working on artiq...
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<azonenberg_hk> it was a massive board because they had a special on an index-card-sized thing
<whitequark> oh wow I remember that thing
<whitequark> thinking "thats sweet but way over my skill"
<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: my pwm board?
<azonenberg_hk> expresspcb... not even once
<whitequark> no the index card sized thing deal
<azonenberg_hk> oh
<whitequark> i just started doing pcbs then
<azonenberg_hk> Doing that board convinced me to learn kicad
<azonenberg_hk> because i was tired of something wihtout a DRC
<azonenberg_hk> i had a missing ground connection or something there
<whitequark> omg
<azonenberg_hk> there was no ERC/DRC
<whitequark> no DRC?!
<azonenberg_hk> you drew your sch, then laid out the pcb
<whitequark> why would anyone ever consider releasing that
<azonenberg_hk> there was a button to highlight pads on a given net
<azonenberg_hk> but no check that you had hooked them all up
<azonenberg_hk> much less a full erc
<azonenberg_hk> no check for things too close etc etiher
<azonenberg_hk> It was written in vb6 too
<azonenberg_hk> looked like it belonged on win95
<azonenberg_hk> Sooo yeah
<azonenberg_hk> never going back lol
<azonenberg_hk> oh and it couldnt export gerbers
<azonenberg_hk> it was a proprietary format that only worked with their fab
<azonenberg_hk> so you were locked in once you did the design
<whitequark> ok thats remarkably bad
<rqou> wtf
<whitequark> glad i never went around to figure out express
<azonenberg_hk> (This was by design)
<azonenberg_hk> Yeah you didnt miss much
<azonenberg_hk> Aaanyway i'm off to hit up the gym and grab some dinner
<azonenberg_hk> i should probably eat before midnihgt lol
<whitequark> you've found a gym in hk already?!
<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: in the hotel
<azonenberg_hk> its not exactly fancy
<whitequark> ah
<azonenberg_hk> like a treadmill, exercise bike, and a few weights
<azonenberg_hk> but better than nothing
<nats`> that's enough for 90% of need :D
<nats`> miss a swimming pool
<nats`> :D
<azonenberg_hk> nats`: yeah i need to go to the pool back home more
<azonenberg_hk> And the rock gym, there's a quite nic eone near me
<azonenberg_hk> recently expanded the hours so i can actually go after work now
<azonenberg_hk> (if i remember)
<nats`> I need to get my home bike
<azonenberg_hk> i wish i could bike :'(
<nats`> it's at my parents place but I do'nt have much time to exercise
<azonenberg_hk> i miss it a lot
<azonenberg_hk> forget if i mentioned here before but i messed up my knee a while ago
<nats`> same no place to do BMX :\
<nats`> ahhhh
<azonenberg_hk> apparently if you bike/run too much without balancing exercise
<azonenberg_hk> your leg muscles get like 10x bigger on one side than the other
<azonenberg_hk> and that causes sideways forces on your kneecap and Bad Things happen
<nats`> because you already have unbalance I think
<nats`> my ex GF is a foot doctor (don't remember the name in english)
<nats`> I learnt lot of things
<azonenberg_hk> The only cure is to either sit on your butt and let the big muscle rot away
<azonenberg_hk> Or bulk up the weak one
<azonenberg_hk> I chose option B
<nats`> soemtime it's a matter of having special piece in your shoes
<nats`> just to rebalance the body
<azonenberg_hk> My problem is that my legs are shaped kinda like this guy http://s61.photobucket.com/user/Damagepoon/media/bigollegsbikerdudez.jpg.html
<azonenberg_hk> not quite so extreme
<azonenberg_hk> but all the mass is on the lateral side of the upper leg
<azonenberg_hk> the medial is nothing
<whitequark> azonenberg_hk: did you get that just from biking a lot in sea?
<whitequark> or was that deliberate exercise?
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<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: Biking 80 miles a week (4 to boat then 4 to office, then home every work day) with ~25 pounds of laptop, spare clothes, water, and assorted other cargo
<azonenberg_hk> plus the occasional 40/50-mile ride to the monthly meeting of search-and-rescue
<azonenberg_hk> 40 for the day if i went after work (including the commute), 50 if i went there from home
<azonenberg_hk> With lots of hills
<whitequark> 80km, wow
<whitequark> thats pretty extreme
<azonenberg_hk> That 50-mile ride also has something like 2000 feet of elevation gained and lost
<azonenberg_hk> i forget if that's one way or round trip
<azonenberg_hk> (25 out then 25 back)
<azonenberg_hk> Since i got the bike a year and a half ago I burned through two sets of brake pads, a chain, a set of gears
<azonenberg_hk> surprisingly still on the original tires
<azonenberg_hk> So yeah, i put some mileage on it :p
<azonenberg_hk> I never really "exercised" with that as the goal
<azonenberg_hk> i just used the bike as my primary means of transportation
<azonenberg_hk> in part because i knew i needed some physical activity after sitting at a desk all day long
<azonenberg_hk> But apparently i neglected other muscle groups as a result
<azonenberg_hk> So now i'm being forced to correct that painful mistake lol
<whitequark> thinkpiece: LOCAL MAN INJURED BY TOO MUCH BIKING
<azonenberg_hk> lol
<azonenberg_hk> it was actually kinda funny
<azonenberg_hk> i knew you could pull a muscle or twist an ankle or whatever
<azonenberg_hk> or overexert yourself in general
<azonenberg_hk> i had no idea it was possible for excessive muscle mass to be harmful
<azonenberg_hk> So it was never something i tried to avoid
<azonenberg_hk> And in all fairness, having big quads is totally OK
<azonenberg_hk> as long as the opposing muscle is equally strong
<azonenberg_hk> and mine are... decidedly not :p
<azonenberg_hk> So there's lots of sideways leg lifts, stretches, and other fun things in my future lol
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<azonenberg_hk> So what do you guys think of eventually being able to infer GP_VREF blocks?
<azonenberg_hk> you'll still have to use one if you want a voltage divider, or need to synthesize a fixed reference
<azonenberg_hk> but if you're driving an input pin or DAC output to the comparator
<azonenberg_hk> it seems silly to require instantiation of a GP_VREF
<azonenberg_hk> The same way most FPGA tools will infer a clock buffer between an input and FF, etc
<whitequark> azonenberg_hk: sure sounds good
* azonenberg_hk adds to mental TODO
<azonenberg_hk> Any other inference things you think would be good to have?
<azonenberg_hk> Already on the list: latches with set/reset (this will require clifford to add support in yosys)
<azonenberg_hk> COUNT_ADV cells
<azonenberg_hk> (right now up/direction changeable/clock enableable counters can't be inferred)
<azonenberg_hk> and then various forms of aggressive optimization we mentioned earlier
<azonenberg_hk> at some point i want to brainstorm with folks in the channel to figure out all of the differnet isomorphisms between various modes of hard IP and primitives that you might run out of
<azonenberg_hk> i thought of a few but i'm sure more exist
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<cr1901> shift reg instantiation needs work
<azonenberg_hk> cr1901: Not surprised
<azonenberg_hk> it was added to yosys specifically at my request
<azonenberg_hk> So i doubt it's seen a lot of use yet
<azonenberg_hk> especially chained shregs are probably not well tested
<cr1901> azonenberg_hk: I haven't tested it in a while either, but my gp4-tests repo illustrates the problem
<azonenberg_hk> Ping me when i get home and i can investigate more thoroughly
<azonenberg_hk> hard for me to do too much serious dev and concentrate here on this little laptop in a hotel without even a mouse and keyboard
<azonenberg_hk> i cant see the code, stdout, generated bitstream, test case rtl, etc all at once
<azonenberg_hk> and jumping back and forth makes it hard to cross-probe and see where things went wrong
<whitequark> hilariously i have a harder time working on a large display
<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: o_O
<whitequark> there's just so much space and it yearns to be filled, and keeps distracting me
<azonenberg_hk> my setup at home is a 40" 4k flanked by two 22/24" 1080ps
<azonenberg_hk> i have a standard setup
<cr1901> IMHO, yosys is doing instantiation correctly/the best it can. It just doesn't have enough information to do instantiation in a GP-friendly way
<whitequark> vs this tiny cozy display where everything is where i know it is
<azonenberg_hk> mail client, github issue tracker, and PDF datasheets on left display
<whitequark> pdf datasheets *almost* convince me to get a proper display but not even them
<azonenberg_hk> IRC, general web browsing, and calculators/assorted small stuff on right
<whitequark> dunno why my brain works like that. everyone i know is salivating at massive panels
<azonenberg_hk> Main display at center has two side by side text editors and a tabbed shell
<whitequark> i used to have a 19" and even that was too large
<azonenberg_hk> then a gpak designer window kinda floating in the top left
<azonenberg_hk> I'm used to turning my head a certain way any time i want to see some specific thing
<azonenberg_hk> its faster than switching virtual desktops or minimizing windows
<azonenberg_hk> the only problem is when i first sit down it takes a second or two to find the mouse cursor
<whitequark> theres an accessibility feature that highlights it
<azonenberg_hk> because it's hiding somewhere in this 7680x2160 jungle
<whitequark> if you press ctrl
<azonenberg_hk> thats windows i think, does X have something similar?
<whitequark> DEs do
<azonenberg_hk> also, my displays are big enough that i cant see everything at once
<azonenberg_hk> If i look at the center display it fills almost my whole FOV
<whitequark> mhm
<azonenberg_hk> if i shift left a bit i can see it and one side, but not both
<azonenberg_hk> I like it this way, it means i can give my full undivided attention to one of them then just tilt my head to context-switch to a different part of the task
<azonenberg_hk> then go right back to where i was
<azonenberg_hk> and being able to see the RTL, P&R code, P&R/synth logs, and generated netlist all at once is super handy for stuff like this
<azonenberg_hk> for EDA i normally have datasheets on the left display, schematic at middle if i'm doing sch capture
<azonenberg_hk> or sch at right and layout at middle for layout
<azonenberg_hk> a 40" 4k is absolutely unparallelled for layout
<whitequark> I do suffer doing EDA on this 13" display, thats true
<azonenberg_hk> on a large multilayer board
<azonenberg_hk> you have the resolution to see fine detail and route around obstacles
<azonenberg_hk> while still maintaining spatial awareness of what's off in the distance
<whitequark> but EDA and datasheets are probably the only two workloads where I wish I had a larger display
<azonenberg_hk> to choose a good bga escape route, etc
<azonenberg_hk> that's most of what i do :p
<whitequark> ok that makes sense heh
<whitequark> kde doesn't appear to have this accessibility feature
<whitequark> ... or much of them at all, what a shame
<azonenberg_hk> i havent looked in xfce (which is what i use)
<azonenberg_hk> i know it was there on windows
<azonenberg_hk> i used it for a while
<azonenberg_hk> But in this case i dont think its all that useful
<azonenberg_hk> simply because i cannot keep the entire display in my FOV at once at my typical seating distance
<azonenberg_hk> My normal workflow has the 4k as my primary workspace then i just glance left or right to see supplementary info
<whitequark> my impression was that no one in xfce cares about accessibility at all
<azonenberg_hk> its not much different than if i had one 4k monitor and a hardcopy datasheet
<azonenberg_hk> and i've never looked
<whitequark> what I do want is one of those A4 ebooks
<whitequark> they're stellar but...
<whitequark> even the chinese branded ones at taobao are $700+
<azonenberg_hk> i went to xfce because i wanted the classic windows 2000 style UI (but with a slightly more modern look on widgets as far as shading etc)
<azonenberg_hk> gnome/unity/cinnamon/$BUZZWORD were all trying to be osx
<azonenberg_hk> which i hate
<whitequark> xfce isnt bad
<azonenberg_hk> i have nothing against mac hardware in general, and the kernel seems quite nice in fact
<whitequark> i went for kde because i like its implementation of panels and hw control applets
<azonenberg_hk> but the ui... the only thing i hate more than that trainwreck is systems that try to clone it
<whitequark> which are basically the only part of kde that i use
<azonenberg_hk> and end up being somehow even less usable than the original
<whitequark> plasma widgets suck
<azonenberg_hk> menus are part of the app, not the OS
<azonenberg_hk> they do not belong at the top of the screen
<whitequark> the idea there was that it's easy to bump the cursor into the top of screen
<whitequark> far more so than hunting a menubar
<azonenberg_hk> Yeah but when you have ten apps open on a 40" display
<azonenberg_hk> trying to move the mouse all the way up there?
<whitequark> yeah its not really aiming at your use case
<azonenberg_hk> indeed
<azonenberg_hk> every time i try to use a mac that is the one thing that bugs me more than anything else
<whitequark> the really nice thing about osx is the graphics toolkit from programmer's pov
<whitequark> it's a total pleasure to use, nothing else comes even close
<azonenberg_hk> They made a lot of good decisions but that is one that i will never support
<whitequark> unfortunately i really resent most of their ui patterns
<azonenberg_hk> Yeah same here
<whitequark> not in the least the tiny unenlargeable fonts
<azonenberg_hk> not just like "awkward"
<whitequark> which i simply don't see
<whitequark> even in glasses
<azonenberg_hk> but absolutely the polar opposite of what i want/need
<azonenberg_hk> one button mouse
<whitequark> oh right
<azonenberg_hk> window buttons on the wrong side
<azonenberg_hk> menus attached to the screen instead of the app
<whitequark> you use the mac hardware :p
<azonenberg_hk> I dont
<azonenberg_hk> :p
* whitequark has only ever used osx in a vm
<azonenberg_hk> but if we're cmplaining about apple UIs...
<azonenberg_hk> complain about the ui they invented
<azonenberg_hk> not the one you used
<whitequark> its an interesting experience because half of stuff is familiar and the other is alien
<whitequark> ctrl does a completely different thing
<whitequark> etc
<whitequark> i must say they did an impressively good job with their software renderer because it's snappy at compositing in fullhd on cpu
<whitequark> in a vm
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<whitequark> i mean "snappy" as "snappy" goes when you're stuck in a vm on a cpu
<whitequark> by some miracle qemu just happens to emulate one of the imacs so it's actually "running" on its native hardware
<azonenberg_hk> Lol
<whitequark> its not even a hackintosh, just a regular installation from a bootable cd
<azonenberg_hk> well i have work in the morning
<azonenberg_hk> sooo i should probably get to sleep
<whitequark> good night
<whitequark> "An optional feature of IPv6, the jumbo payload option in a Hop-By-Hop Options extension header,[8] allows the exchange of packets with payloads of up to one byte less than 4 GB (232 − 1 = 4294967295 bytes), by making use of a 32-bit length field. Packets with such payloads are called jumbograms."
<whitequark> who thought this is a good idea?
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<qu1j0t3> -_-
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<pie_> whitequark, maybe they had an extra bit
<whitequark> they didnt
<whitequark> its done through a "next header" field
<whitequark> so its an entire new option header, even fatter than ipv4 options
<nats`> I hope they removed the 32 bit CRC
<nats`> :p
<nats`> because it's fucking pointless int aht case :p
<whitequark> ip header doesnt have the crc anymore in ipv6
<whitequark> it relies on ethernet level crc
<whitequark> and i think jumbograms rely on fragmentation so they use smaller link layer frames
<whitequark> but like, wow, ipv4 is a mess and ipv6 is also a mess, just a different one
<whitequark> im very unhappy about this
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<qu1j0t3> whitequark: I guess this won't cheer you up much: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_InterNetwork_Architecture_(RINA)
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<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: last time i checked ipv4 had a header checksum but not payload
<azonenberg_hk> and it was a 16-bit sum, not a crc
<azonenberg_hk> and yeah jumbograms are stupid
<azonenberg_hk> theres a lot of ip features i just dont support in my stack
<azonenberg_hk> because they are rarely used and should never be used :p
<whitequark> qu1j0t3: ugh
<whitequark> I knew most of those things separately but
<whitequark> seeing them put together like that is depressing
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* whitequark stares at the IPv4 header
<whitequark> MSB 0 bit numbering?!
<whitequark> WHY
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<rqou> to cause you bugs? :P
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<rqou> my father had a great story about this too
<rqou> at one point they were working on a product that layered a MSB-is-0 protocol on top of a LSB-is-0 protocol
<rqou> but there were a whole bunch of other layers involved so this wasn't obvious
<whitequark> augh
<rqou> they needed to do interop testing
<rqou> only one other vendor had a product at that time
<rqou> test fails and doesn't pass traffic
<rqou> after debugging it turns out the other vendor got the bit ordering backwards
<rqou> but they were first to market and bigger, so their way became the right way
<rqou> whitequark: I love the name smoltcp
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<whitequark> lol
<rqou> except for the part where it doesn't do TCP :P
<whitequark> ... yet.
<whitequark> let me finish ICMP and it will do TCP, like, tomorrow
<rqou> I assume you got tired of lwIP?
<whitequark> "tired" is a word not strong enough.
<whitequark> I feel like the authors of lwIP deserve to be relocated to the United States.
<rqou> lol
<cr1901> did the other stack fall through?
* whitequark makes an indefinite gesture
<cr1901> well, it's a cute TCP stack
<cr1901> it's TCP, but smol
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<rqou> people who generate unindexed PDFs are evil
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<cr1901_modern> s/unindexed//
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<azonenberg_hk> rqou: agreed
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<pie_> guess thats me
<pie_> well, idk what unindexed means
<azonenberg_hk> pie_: without a sidebar table of contents for you to navigate
<azonenberg_hk> theres a few chip vendors i cant recall off the top of my head who are big offenders
<azonenberg_hk> i think winbond for one?
<pie_> oh
<pie_> yeah i dont do that
<azonenberg_hk> so you have to go up to the front of the doc, find the printed toc
<azonenberg_hk> then scroll down X pages
<pie_> then again my biggest pdf is like 10 pages :P)
<azonenberg_hk> its horrible, like using a printed book
<azonenberg_hk> the whole point of electronic docs is to be more efficient
<pie_> its worse than a printed book
<azonenberg_hk> and even printed binders can have tabs at starts of chapters etc :p
<pie_> on a printed book you can at least stick your fingers in places as temporary bookmarks
<azonenberg_hk> yeah exactly
<cr1901_modern> I prefer single-page HTML with a TOC and links to next/prev/top/bottom
<cr1901_modern> Note: My preference is not in contradiction with modern web browsers being a clusterfuck
<azonenberg_hk> cr1901_modern: ideally, you should have a meta-format you can generate pdf, multi-page html, or unified html
<azonenberg_hk> as all 3 have their uses
<azonenberg_hk> multi-page html is good for mobile devices and low bandwidth connections
<lain> ^^^^^^^^
<lain> this
<azonenberg_hk> easier to navigate and less to load
<azonenberg_hk> unified is good for desktop stuff, sometimes
<azonenberg_hk> pdf is better for printing and other desktop use cases
<cr1901_modern> azonenberg: it's called pandoc or Sphinx :P
<cr1901_modern> oh, sorry misread
<azonenberg_hk> or doxygen or...
<azonenberg_hk> lots of stuff
<cr1901_modern> pandoc can't do multi-page html I think. Or if it can, idk how to do it
<azonenberg_hk> My point is, ideal docs are available in all three
<cr1901_modern> I acknowledge PDF is important, but I loathe reading documentation in it.
<azonenberg_hk> why so?
<cr1901_modern> search is slow, and I have a tendency to jump around a lot. I can at least save my prev position in a browser that can parse HTML
<cr1901_modern> I would prefer to have a "stack" of previous positions
<azonenberg_hk> some pdf viewers can do that
<cr1901_modern> Oh?
<cr1901_modern> And also, the fact that PDF itself doesn't understand text, but only "how to draw text" kinda skeeves me
<azonenberg_hk> i forget which ones but i know i've used onesthat did it
<azonenberg_hk> pdf is a rendering format, not a semantic format
<azonenberg_hk> i would like a better format for pretty-printed text meant to be displayed on a page
<azonenberg_hk> maybe latex dvi? no idea how kludgy that one is
<cr1901_modern> Somebody uses dvi besides as an intermediate format to generate Postscript?
<pie_> next week we have to give a short 10-15 minute presentation about a topic for one of our classes and im doing semiconductor (IC) manufacturing, and i want to make i reallycool(tm), any recommendations?
<pie_> for physicis students that dont really know anything about it
<pie_> *physics
<cr1901_modern> Show them a silicon ignot?
<cr1901_modern> tngot*
<cr1901_modern> ignot** ffs
<azonenberg_hk> lol
<pie_> haha
<azonenberg_hk> Some die photos in general?
<cr1901_modern> Aaaaaah iNgot*
<azonenberg_hk> maybe a dash etch shot to show doping
<azonenberg_hk> and how you can debug it
<pie_> yeah probably gonna put an assload (metric) of pics in a powerpoint or something
<mtp> pie_++ for 'metric assload'
<azonenberg_hk> What distinguishes a metric assload from an imperial one?
<azonenberg_hk> what's the conversion factor?
<pie_> idk, sanity points? :P
<mtp> the imperial assload doesn't actually measure ass
<mtp> it measures seat capacity
* pie_ ponders how he is going to cram the entire chip process into 15 minutes when even he has no idea what hes talking about
<pie_> well by then hpefully ill have a clue
<azonenberg_hk> pie_: read my RE class notes
<pie_> ALL THE THINGS
<azonenberg_hk> the lectures on fab and package construction
<mtp> pie_, there's a children's book called "The New Way Things Work" that describes it pretty well
<azonenberg_hk> those are a good crash course
<pie_> azonenberg_hk, yes thats a very good suggestion, ive been meaning to read them anyway
<pie_> for like...months?
<azonenberg_hk> i think lectures 2 and... 6ish?
<azonenberg_hk> Lol
<mtp> at least i remember it talking about doping and masking and semiconductors
<pie_> ive got some pdfs of books but those are obviously pretty in-depth
<pie_> anyway im getting ahead of myself..just need to focus on not failing a bunch of tests this week.... :I
<cr1901_modern> azonenberg_hk: This is a stupid question, but... mulling over your "do a switch on FPGA" project more. Is there any hardware difference between WAN port and LAN port, or is it simply how the firmware treats the ports that makes them different?