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<carl0s> pointfree, hi, on the rpt file, on the detailed placement report, those signal names are coloured in blue. BTW forgot to report my tries to use the directive to fit the XOR, i was not able to do so ;(
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<pointfree> carl0s, when looking for ways to constrain the XOR gate LUT I saw signals such as \LUT_1:tmp__LUT_1_ins_1\ ...because it's tmp (temporary) it may not stick.
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<carl0s> well, i guess the warp tool is smart enough (more than me) to place it. Did you found the signals you were looking for?
<carl0s> also, i found a file $(proj_name).v on the codegentemp directory, it's the verilog representation of the schematic, i don't know if you saw it b4, there's also the bitstream in ascii format
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<digshadow-s> rqou: yeah
<digshadow-s> I think I took some
<digshadow-s> or maybe that was seanriddle?
<digshadow-s> let me look
<digshadow-s> oogun also took some
<rqou> private? google isn't finding them
<digshadow> looking
<digshadow> I'm having trouble finding them on pr0n
<digshadow> let me check private collection
<digshadow> okay just ofund the ogoun data
<digshadow> I have a copyright release from him
<rqou> do you have an estimate of how many people are hoarding/sitting on NOS parts?
<digshadow> so if its not on pr0n already, I can push it
<digshadow> ha I don't know
<digshadow> I believe though
<digshadow> we have shots of sc-01 and sc01a
<digshadow> one was taken by me, other by someone else
<digshadow> (other being ogoun)
<digshadow> rqou: what do you want to do with it?
<rqou> no idea yet
<rqou> i saw my two chips on ebay for an acceptable price
<digshadow> how much is that?
<digshadow> correction both are from ogoun
<digshadow> hmm no
<digshadow> its more complicated than that :P
<rqou> i paid $150 for two
<digshadow> fixed
<rqou> wow one metal
<digshadow> so the reason I photo'd some
<digshadow> was that ogoun mixed the chips up people thought
<digshadow> and I believe my die shots confirmed it
<digshadow> maybe some more images there too
<digshadow> thats the other one
<digshadow> you want the first data set
<rqou> that chip is totally different?
<digshadow> yeah disregard that
<rqou> hmm i'm pretty bad at reading die shots
<rqou> i can't tell what's implant vs poly
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<digshadow> which one are you looking at
<rqou> i'm looking at the sc-01-a http://siliconpr0n.org/map/votrax/sc-01-a/mz_mit20x/ and the active areas aren't really visible
<rqou> i assume most of the faint lines are poly?
<rqou> on my classwork die (http://i.imgur.com/COJL9QX.jpg) active and poly are both visible
<rqou> although you can't really tell them apart very well
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<digshadow> I think thats metal gate
<digshadow> there is no poly
<rqou> ah
<rqou> that makes much more sense
<rqou> wouldn't it be super slow on an 80s process?
<digshadow> isn't it an old chip?
<digshadow> slow is reltaive
<digshadow> this is a sound chip
<rqou> true
<digshadow> not a 20 GHz GPU
<qu1j0t3> /b 16
<rqou> wow i'm realizing that i still have no idea how to read this :P
<pie_> azonenberg, just a quick sidetrack from what im actually doing right now, how do you learn to RE silicon? just learn how its done forwards and pattern match backwards?
<rqou> if you're me, you sign up for a microfabrication course and cause all your classmates to wonder wtf you are doing there :P
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<rqou> most[citation needed] people take microfabrication because they are doing research in it, not because of lulz/RE :P
<rqou> digshadow: is the sc-01-a even built on a p-doped substrate at all?
<rqou> or is it built on an undoped substrate?
<rqou> in the bottom left i see labels for WELL, N+, and P+
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<rqou> this process is so old and foreign :P
<azonenberg_hk> rqou: lol
<azonenberg_hk> and yes i am a lot more familiar with modern STI-based processes
<azonenberg_hk> with CMP etc
<azonenberg_hk> not old birdsbeak nonplanar
<pie_> rqou, hehe
<pie_> rqou, story of my life
<pie_> minus the taking microfabrication classes
<pie_> azonenberg_hk, o/ whatcha doin in hk? conference?
<pie_> this is probably an established method but i havent seen it anywhere yet, has anyone uploaded pictures of dies illuminated by different wavelengths of monochromatic light?
<pie_> ... /me ponders whether thats effectively laser illumination
<pie_> i dont think it is because i think lasers are also supposed to give light thats in phase...but maybe thats just the fancy ones
<rqou> what are you trying to do by doing this? get a better idea of thickness?
<pie_> idk just an idea i had
<azonenberg_hk> pie_: meeting for work
<pie_> oh
<pie_> i see
<rqou> we (UCB) has a device that measures the thickness of thin films by essentially doing that
<rqou> it takes a monochromator and shines a specific wavelength of light on the sample and measures how much comes back
<pie_> yeah funnily enough i learned about that recently now that you mention it :)
<pie_> in class i mean
<azonenberg_hk> pie_: ellipsometry you mean?
<rqou> there's a name for this technique?
<azonenberg_hk> Or is this based on measuring thin film interference
<rqou> the thing i was talking about is just based on thin film interference
<rqou> ellipsometry is much more advanced
<azonenberg_hk> ah ok
<azonenberg_hk> rpi had both available
<azonenberg_hk> now that i think about it
<pie_> to be fair it was rather tangential, i never did find out whether its an interferometric thing or something else :P (interferometers are cool yo)
<pie_> (also optics is expensive as fuck)
<rqou> yes
<rqou> i took one optics class
<rqou> (i didn't do too great in it)
<rqou> optics is amazingly cool stuff
<pie_> my computer decided to stop computering for a bit there, whatd i miss
<pie_> also, UCB?
<rqou> UC Berkeley
<rqou> or as whitequark likes to call it, $FANCY_SCHOOL :P
<pie_> ah, hehe
<digshadow> btw has a gallery in case you hadn't seen that
<digshadow> you're looking at something like that MPS7083
<digshadow> I think
<rqou> that's so weird
<rqou> azonenberg_hk: somewhat relevant to things we discussed here before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cLWz1jZd2Q
<rqou> eevblog talks about altium's ERC
<rqou> according to his twitter he found a bug in it
<digshadow> a bug in altium?
* digshadow gasps
* qu1j0t3 smiles
<rqou> i've never used altium
<rqou> only eagle and kicad
<rqou> and very very briefly touched orcad+allegro years and years ago
<rqou> that bad?
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<whitequark> rqou: i've been watching chinese action movies on the airplane.
<whitequark> they are... for the lack of a bettter world, wild
<whitequark> i'm going to watch only chinese action movies from now on
<rqou> lol
<rqou> hk ones or mainland ones?
<whitequark> i'm not sure.
<whitequark> the ones i got were skiptrace and from macau to vegas iii
<whitequark> the former is hk i think
<whitequark> and the latter is both according to wikipedia?
<rqou> yeah these are hk ones
<rqou> hk action movies are great
<rqou> btw you can't even tell the difference between cantonese and mandarin?
<rqou> :P
<whitequark> I don't think I've ever heard much mandarin in the first place
<whitequark> whereas my reaction to hearing cantonese at departure was "oh, finally"
<whitequark> so...
<whitequark> (I like how it sounds ok)
<rqou> um, mtr plays all automated announcements in cantonese, mandarin, and english
<whitequark> yeah, mtr is the only place where i've heard it i think
<rqou> i thought the airport sometimes did?
<whitequark> and that seems to be not enough samples to reliably factor it out
<whitequark> the airport too but everything non-english in airports doesn't pass my brain firewall anyway
<rqou> lol
<whitequark> too much noise
<rqou> nerdy way to distinguish: mandarin cannot have stop consonants in the coda
<whitequark> I really hate how they play the automated message about some stupid disease every 10 minutes
<whitequark> thats probably the best way to make sure I will never think of it
<azonenberg_hk> My Delta flight had announcements in 3 languages
<azonenberg_hk> English and two asian-sounding languages
<azonenberg_hk> Assuming cantonese and mandarin but i cant speak either so cannot confirm :p
<whitequark> the aeroflot flight had ru_RU, en_US and zh_HK
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<rqou> btw SFO loves to play automated announcements about looking for suspicious activity
<azonenberg_hk> Every airport does
<azonenberg_hk> sfo more so?
<rqou> because *terrorists*!!!!!1111oneone
<rqou> :P
<whitequark> every? I don't recall those announcements actually
<whitequark> except in the US
<rqou> SFO seems to do it more
<azonenberg_hk> i have heard such things at every american airport or train station i've ever been to
<azonenberg_hk> even some ferries
<rqou> yeah, the US loves security theater
<rqou> btw German airport security is super careful (at least the last time I was there)
<rqou> I bought some lockpicks at CCC and had them in my carry-on
<rqou> and the X-ray operator in Hamburg noticed, searched and found them, and asked the supervisor if they were allowed
<rqou> (they are)
<whitequark> what impressed me about German airport security is how polite they are
<whitequark> when you go through TSA you can feel how they mentally violate your every pore
<azonenberg_hk> rqou: they're german
<azonenberg_hk> of course they're meticulous about such things :p
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<rqou> so when my family goes to Europe over Christmas I'm going to try to smuggle some "banned items" back. chances are US CBP won't even notice :p
<rqou> "banned items" include
<rqou> kinder eggs
<rqou> non-pasteurized cheese
<rqou> :p
<whitequark> to be fair kinder eggs don't light up the xray screen like a christmas tree
<whitequark> small pieces of metal have really striking contours from what i've seen
<rqou> afaik CBP doesn't even check for this stuff until after landing where there's no X-ray machine
<whitequark> oh, they don't have xray scanners?
<rqou> and because I'm not an old granny returning from China they're unlikely to check for banned food :p
<azonenberg_hk> lool
<rqou> they probably have scanners on the way in, but they don't scan everybody
<rqou> only if they're suspicious of you
<rqou> btw I've seen old ladies just ignore the scanner at HK<->SZ crossings and not get stopped
<whitequark> lol
<whitequark> honestly this is pretty typical
<rqou> they might be cracking down on that though due to too much iDevice smuggling
<rqou> :p
<whitequark> the building in which our HK office is has security personnel
<whitequark> they will stop you and ask to sign some stupid shit if you look like you can be stopped, otherwise they will not even try
<whitequark> #welldone
<whitequark> also like half of the time I walk there past midnight and they are snoring in the cubicle
<rqou> supposedly though HK police/customs are really street smart and can often detect suspicious people
<rqou> and HK/CN doesn't really care about accusations of profiling :p
<whitequark> rqou: I got a letter from HK IRS today
<whitequark> turns out they are LOWERING my tax rate for 2016/17
<rqou> interesting
<whitequark> by, like, 28%
<whitequark> I mean uh
<rqou> lowering the rate or just dropping you into a different bracket?
<whitequark> nope, same salary, lower rate
<rqou> that's unusual
<whitequark> I'm slightly surprised
<rqou> i don't know too much about HK taxes though
<rqou> I don't have to pay any :P
<whitequark> it looks like they made the bracket larger
<whitequark> it went from 120k to 132k
<whitequark> so that considerably reduced my chargeable income
<rqou> unlike the US, HK doesn't try to tax income earned abroad
<whitequark> well yeah US is insane in that way
<whitequark> another reason not to be an US citizen ;p
<rqou> US and Eritrea :P
<whitequark> lol wait
<whitequark> just these two?
<rqou> i think so
<whitequark> amazing
<azonenberg_hk> whitequark: give it a few years
<azonenberg_hk> wait till one of trump's wealthy oil baron friends complains to him about his excessive taxes
<whitequark> azonenberg_hk: you mean eritrea is going to cease double taxation?
<azonenberg_hk> and that may go away :p
<whitequark> ehh I think all the oil baron friends already have schemes
<rqou> anyways, it's somewhat unfair because i don't pay HK taxes but I've used their healthcare system :P
<whitequark> and some simply renounced citizenship
<lain> one of mom's friends, I forget the exact circumstances but he was born with dual citizenship US + Canada and has always lived in Canada. his family is wealthy and he is well-to-do, but I think his father passed away early in his life or something? I forget the details, but basically he grew up in canada and never knew he had to pay US taxes because of his dual-citizenship
<whitequark> maybe you americans should just fire your entire administration and bring in the people who run hk?
<lain> somewhat recently they caught up with him and were saying he owes like SO MUCH (I don't know how much, but I would guess it's high six or low seven figures) in back taxes
<lain> and he's like "...wat"
<lain> took quite a while to sort that mess out
<rqou> whitequark: including brilliant people like 長毛 ("Long Hair", Leung Kwok-hung)? :P
<whitequark> "Leung's key campaigns include universal suffrage, workers' rights and welfare for the less well off. His political agenda includes introduction of a liveable minimum wage, comprehensive social security, collective bargaining and taxing speculative business."
<rqou> (this was the "oath of office" drama)
<whitequark> I mean
<whitequark> I'm not sure why not
<rqou> it's not the platform but the stupid antics
<whitequark> I'd say better be a fan of che guevara than screw children or something
<whitequark> as far as MPs go
<whitequark> I'll take him
<rqou> i can't find too many good video clips, but i'm not a fan of how much HK's pro-democracy groups cause drama and act unprofessionally
<whitequark> do they beat each other's faces on live TV during parliament sessions
<rqou> not quite that bad
<whitequark> by which I mean even if they do, it merely means they are as unprofessional as russian MPs but have a better platform
<whitequark> do you see what I mean
<rqou> i thought that was just UA :P
<rqou> RU as well?
<whitequark> sure
<whitequark> as if there's that much difference
<whitequark> unrelated: the stupidest thing in the world is how there's no standard USSD to query balance
<whitequark> USSD number
<rqou> it's not always applicable
<rqou> many US cellular plans are postpaid
<whitequark> ugh
<whitequark> can we just ignore the US in standards processes if they ignore everyone else anyway
<cr1901_modern> I actually like Fahrenheit compared to Celsius
<whitequark> I prefer Kelvins for that matter
<azonenberg_hk> I use F for ambient temps and C for everything else
<whitequark> K is everywhere in thermodynamics
<whitequark> it's so irritating to have to convert every time
<rqou> no Rankine scale? :P
<whitequark> cr1901_modern: actually I don't think the ranges matter very much
<whitequark> the smaller size of the °F unit is a more compelling argument than the 0-100 range
<rqou> hence Rankine :P
<whitequark> but quick calculations wrt water are still rather useful
<cr1901_modern> whitequark: Fair enough
<whitequark> like in a large part of the US it will probably never get to 0
<whitequark> just like in HK it will never get under 0 degC
<whitequark> also wait
<rqou> in general i hate temperature conversions because the conversion is an affine function
<whitequark> 0°F is just -17°C?
<rqou> you have to add an annoying offset
<whitequark> in what place is that "really cold" ?
<whitequark> california?
<rqou> sure :P
<cr1901_modern> In NJ XD
<rqou> you're russian, nothing is cold :P :P
<whitequark> "really cold" is like, -35°C
<whitequark> and that's a day ending in y for my friends from Siberia anyway
<whitequark> (it doesn't feel nearly as cold because it is also so dry)
<cr1901_modern> Hmmm... interesting
<whitequark> I mean I think it feels more like -25°C
<cr1901_modern> I though 5F was really cold last time it got that cold, tbh. Could be I wasn't used to it
<whitequark> but in a more humid part of the country
<whitequark> ah
<cr1901_modern> And Dad at the time said 0F was "not much worse"
<whitequark> well you gotta have clothes for -17°C but I would not generally change my plans just because of that
<whitequark> -25°C I will drop less important things, lower I will drop nonessential
<whitequark> and I'm mostly just lazy and don't have proper clothing
<cr1901_modern> Reminds me I need more clothing for this winter. I'm prob equipped for down to -15°C as an approximation (or close to 0F)
<cr1901_modern> And single digit is the lowest I'll see in any given year
<rqou> i'm equipped for about 40F :P
<rqou> welcome to Cali :P
<lain> in 2014 it got down to -14 F here
<cr1901_modern> lain: where's "here" for you?
<lain> South Bend, Indiana
<cr1901_modern> I'm guessing US since F was your default :P
<lain> yeah
<lain> I'm not used to C except for non-human-related measurements
<rqou> lain how is your whois a private ip address range?
<rqou> is that a cloak?
<lain> it's a domain under the .xxx tld :D
<lain> a friend owns 254.xxx, he gave me a subdomain
<rqou> lol that's brilliant
<lain> right!?
<rqou> too bad .xxx domains a really expensive
<lain> indeed
<lain> when you buy a .xxx they make you agree that you will host adult content on it
<lain> lol
<rqou> lol
<lain> he's like "if they ever call me out on it, I'll just mirror goatse or something."
<rqou> is one image enough? :P
<lain> haha
<cr1901_modern> I don't need to see that image again T_T
<rqou> the other day i tried to buy an emoji domain and got errors from every single place i tried it
<lain> aw
<lain> I have some emoji subdomains, but no emoji domains
<cr1901_modern> In any case, the IP is showing up private b/c of NAT?
<rqou> no, it's a hostname that looks like an ip
<cr1901_modern> Ahhh
<rqou> <!-- s-senpai noticed me! :3 -->
<lain> lol
<cr1901_modern> Who's the foxgirl?
<lain> ah man, what anime is she from...
<rqou> google says mikan tsumiki from dangan ronpa
<cr1901_modern> Reminds me of Konata from Lucky Star, except with more than 10 minutes of effort put into it
<lain> what rqou said
<rqou> great, ##openfpga is #anime again
<rqou> :P
<lain> haha, Lucky Star was a fun one. I still haven't seen the anime that foxgirl is from... slowly working through the backlog lol
<lain> it will never end ;-;
<cr1901_modern> ##openfpga is always #anime
<lain> https://🅱🅾🅾🅱.lain.land
<lain> on the one hand, I understand converting to punycode upon visiting a site is important for security reasons, but it certainly takes some of the fun away
<rqou> if you look at my whois i'm not on an emoji domain but i'm on a rather interesting IDN domain
<lain> oh nice
<lain> XD
<cr1901_modern> My browser isn't even rendering the chars properly, so...
<cr1901_modern> It's "four square boxes" dot lain dot land
<lain> hehe
<lain> it's "BOOB" spelled with blood type emojis
<lain> because reasons, I dunno
<cr1901_modern> I'm suddenly reminded that this was a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMX_XXX
<lain> lol oh jeeze I remember that
<whitequark> "-- is this the channel about anime? -- yes -- who's going to help me reverse-engineer this series 7 bitstream feature?"
<lain> I wish .us tld allowed whois privacy services
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<rqou_> this is my best reverse hostname btw
<lain> hah
<rqou_> just so i can be a huge showoff :P
<cr1901_modern> anime is always on-topic at ##openfpga
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<lain> fpga-accelerated subtitle rendering
<rqou> i try not to use that rqou_ reverse dns because the admins might not appreciate it :P
<lain> :D
<cr1901_modern> lain: You win for the night
<cr1901_modern> I remember when hardsubs were still kinda the norm
<azonenberg_hk> fpga-accelerated anime subtitle rendering? lol
<cr1901_modern> I support that FPGA use case :D. Subtitles are increasingly elaborate in anime fansubs
<lain> haha
<rqou> yeah, especially since text rendering may or may not be undecidable
<lain> fwiw namecheap seems to support emoji domains
<rqou> is the combination of fonts and unicode footguns sufficient to make a turing machine yet?
<azonenberg_hk> rqou: truetype is already turing complete
<lain> aw man, 📂.io is available
<azonenberg_hk> it's been used to make exploits already
<lain> that'd be a great file dump url
<rqou> i know fonts have weird machines, but is it turing complete?
<azonenberg_hk> against our old friend the windows kernel font parser
<rqou> lol
<azonenberg_hk> lain: doesnt render for me
<lain> open file folder emoji
<lain> dot io
<azonenberg_hk> lool
<lain> $32.88/year though, dang
<lain> I'm already hoarding too many domains
<cr1901_modern> What the hell does it even mean for text rendering to be undecidable? XD
<rqou> i tried to get 🔗.link
<rqou> got errors everywhere
<lain> oh nice
<lain> rqou: namecheap lets me search it
<lain> the .io is available
<lain> ah, but I don't think namecheap has the .link tld available
<rqou> it does
<rqou> i have the $0.00 failed transaction to prove it :P
<lain> oh
<lain> lol
<lain> try the punycode version?
<rqou> oh you're right namecheap's search is broken
<lain> if you search by punycode it seems to work
<lain> but if you search by emoji it breaks
<whitequark> TIL browsers have push notifications
<lain> (and if you search by punycode, it will render as emoji in the results)
<rqou> i did that
<whitequark> as if this wasn't awful enough on android. and of course it's unobvious how to turn it off...
<lain> oh
<lain> darn :(
<rqou> that's how i got a "[FAILED] IDN Code is Missing "
<rqou> btw tomorrow (later today) i might finally be able to get an ssl cert on my idn domain
<lain> yeah
<lain> mine are letsencrypt'd
<rqou> i finally no longer have a reason to call LE hypocritical and <troll>problematic</troll>
<lain> the client in freebsd ports doesn't have the patch yet but the service supports it so I just commented out the anti-punycode check :V
<rqou> it doesn't work if your TLD is an IDN
<lain> ahhh
<rqou> hence "problematic" :P
<rqou> hilariously enough, i tried previously to get a cert via startcom
<rqou> asked them to enable the xn--j6w193g tld via their support
<lain> startcom is problematic for other reasons :D
<rqou> and then got a silent failure when i actually tried it
<lain> lol
<rqou> startcom has always been both problematic and <troll>problematic</troll>
<lain> yes
<rqou> LE is ostensibly not supposed to be
<lain> man. all the <emoji>.tld are taken :P
<rqou> i'm sad that emoji display as punycode in browsers
<lain> yeah
<lain> I get it, for security reasons, but it is sad times
<azonenberg_hk> lain: what about mobile browsers?
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<azonenberg_hk> can you send someone http://[poop].com/ and have it render properly in the sms as a clickable link?
<rqou> anyways, if only emoji displayed in urls "🐉.龍.龖.龘.香港" would be an awesome domain :P
<azonenberg_hk> whats that?
<azonenberg_hk> i see [box].[chinese characters]
<rqou> [dragon emoji].[traditional chinese character for dragon].[character with two "dragon" characters side-by-side].[character with three "dragon" characters in a triangle].[Hong Kong]
<azonenberg_hk> lool
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<rqou> btw buying [character with three "dragon" characters in a triangle].[Hong Kong] is a pretty great deal
<rqou> you get [character with two "dragon" characters side-by-side].[Hong Kong] for free
<lain> haha
<rqou> because [character with two "dragon" characters side-by-side] is considered the simplified version of [character with three "dragon" characters in a triangle]
<azonenberg_hk> What does that character actually mean?
<rqou> it's an archaic character nobody actually uses :P
<rqou> supposedly means "a vista of a dragon in flight"
<rqou> it's (one of) the unicode BMP characters with the most strokes
<azonenberg_hk> lol
<azonenberg_hk> yeah i knew that from you before
<azonenberg_hk> but i didnt know what the translation was
<lain> azonenberg_hk: both firefox and chrome for android convert it to punycode in the url bar
<azonenberg_hk> lain: yes but in the sms window
<azonenberg_hk> does it show up as a clickable link with an emoji in it?
<azonenberg_hk> And can you type the emoji into the url bar and have it go through?
<lain> I think so, but as soon as you actually visit, it'll convert it to punycode
<lain> hmm no
<rqou> works for me on android
<lain> I just sent myself an sms with one of my emoji domains and it only made the stuff after the emoji clickable, despite putting https:// in front
<rqou> i sent myself [poop].la and it works
<rqou> annoyingly, the .hk registry is very careful to avoid footguns and phishing attacks
<lain> it doesn't show as clickable for me in the txt app
<lain> this is under android 6.0
<rqou> it does for me on 7
<lain> ah
<rqou> anyways, under .hk you cannot register *simplified/traditional variants of domains (the first person who registers one gets all the variants) *anything that isn't a character *japanese characters
<rqou> it's like they don't want you to abuse it or something :P
<azonenberg_hk> rqou: lol
<lain> hm
* lain cnames pickaxe emoji subdomain to minecraft server
<azonenberg_hk> loolo
<rqou> blargh just got another fail from namecheap
<rqou> tried to get xn--fz5l.ninja
<lain> I'm guessing that's the chinese character for ninja? :P
<rqou> [chinese character with *four* dragon characters arranged in a square].ninja
<lain> ah
<lain> quadruple dragon
<rqou> apparently it means "verbose" :P
<lain> haha
<lain> seems appropriate
<lain> bah, I should shower and get some food
<rqou> i hate registrars
<rqou> why do they all suck so hard?
<rqou> also, namecheap 2fa is a huge fail considering how important it is
<rqou> it's SMS only
<lain> yeahhhh
<lain> it's better than no 2fa, but I'd prefer u2f or totp
<rqou> i use totp with a yubikey
<lain> same
<rqou> due to incomplete u2f support
<rqou> this brings me to: why do smartcards all suck so hard?
<rqou> javacard is an awful platform
<rqou> and everything has worthless documentation due to secrecy
<rqou> and they're slow and not necessarily auditable
<rqou> at some point i should try dpa on one just to see if it _really_ has countermeasures
<rqou> azonenberg_hk: thoughts?
<azonenberg_hk> rqou: i would love to see a sane smartcard platform
<azonenberg_hk> IMO if you arent willing to document your system i dont trust it
<azonenberg_hk> :p
<rqou> i've heard of all sorts of countermeasures from meshes on top metal down to custom-drawn lower-side-channel-emission transistor layouts but have no idea how much of this is true
<azonenberg_hk> i've seen top level meshes
<azonenberg_hk> have not done extensive analysis beyond that
<rqou> so what's the deal with DPA countermeasures?
<rqou> i've seen some papers on algorithmic tweaks
<rqou> is that more common or is somehow obscuring the useful signals with noise more common?
<azonenberg_hk> rqou: the best option is to do masking of some sort
<azonenberg_hk> so that there isnt a useful power signature
<azonenberg_hk> by doing some invertible transformation on the data
<rqou> yeah, that's what the papers i saw talked about
<rqou> is that sufficient by itself?
<azonenberg_hk> i mean ideally you want no power signature at all with fully differential logic
<azonenberg_hk> but getting truly equal power that way is HARD
<azonenberg_hk> probably requires hand layout and exacting matches of load on P/N legs
<cr1901_modern> Why is that "HARD"?
<cr1901_modern> Setting aside that I forget how to do it, load matching is something that's taught in an EE curriculum
<cr1901_modern> I suppose what you call hard, I call "an absolute tedious pain in the ass"
<azonenberg_hk> cr1901_modern: Doing it for a complex standard cell circuit
<azonenberg_hk> where you need exactly the same wire length
<azonenberg_hk> and diff pairs everywhere
<azonenberg_hk> also gotta run
<azonenberg_hk> nontrivial
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<nats`> <rqou> is that more common or is somehow obscuring the useful signals with noise more common? <= adding noise is pointless
<nats`> noise and random signal are exactly what you can easily remove by running more and more test
<rqou> i thought the way it worked was you add noise until "more and more tests" take too long to be practical
<nats`> doing constant time math can already help and you can try to do some trickery to always switch the same amount of current
<nats`> using mirror etc
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<rqou> aaaand LE finally allows me to get https on my idn domain
<rqou> finally not "problematic" :P
<rqou> now i just need to update znc to a build that does not use their totally insane unified pem
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<lain> lol
<rqou> have you seen how znc stores keys?
<rqou> it has a giant .pem that is a concatenation of the private key, the certificate, and the diffie-hellman parameters
<rqou> all in one very-high-footgun-potential file
<lain> never used znc before
<lain> that sounds awful
<rqou> latest versions have it split sanely
<mtp> that's good to hear
<rqou> but it's not packaged so i have to build it