00:01 <ocdtrekkie> Right now I kinda have things in two places: .NET's app settings feature, which is a little XML thing in the user folder, and then a couple of tables in an SQLite file. I am almost tempted to just dump the device list as an XML file to save it, and import it back in when the program starts, but if that sounds anywhere near as horrible as I'm imagining it, I don't wanna do it.

00:03 <ocdtrekkie> I doubt it'll ever be more than 50 objects though. The database only controls one house.

00:04 <XgF> Just grab a good serialization library

00:08 <ocdtrekkie> Random side thought: I hope the SMTP driver for Sandstorm supports implicit and explicit SSL because I am annoyed that I have to use Gmail with my program.

00:08 <XgF> have to?

00:09 <ocdtrekkie> I was going to use my hosting provider's email. Didn't work.

00:09 <ocdtrekkie> Thought 'Hey, .NET is a Microsoft thing, I'll use Outlook.com'.

00:09 <ocdtrekkie> ... Didn't work.

00:09 <ocdtrekkie> Gmail offers one flavor of SSL over port 465 and one flavor of SSL over port 587.

00:10 <ocdtrekkie> The whole STARTTLS thing or what-have-you.

00:10 <ocdtrekkie> (My understanding of it doesn't extend much beyond irritation with it. And Gmail itself only tells you about one of those two ports.)

00:11 <XgF> The one on 465 is SMTPS and the one on 587 is STARTTLS

00:12 <XgF> (where 587 is the "mail submission port" and a replacement of port 25 for outgoing mail so ISPs can blacklist outgoing port 25)

00:13 <ocdtrekkie> That thing, I guess. System.Net.Mail works with 587, so presumably it requires STARTTLS. Outlook.com advertises it's SMTP port as 587, but it doesn't work with System.Net.Mail.

00:17 <ocdtrekkie> Gmail is super vague about it, "Port: 465 or 587". Outlook.com only says port 587 for SMTP, but it doesn't work for this, whereas 587 for Gmail does.

01:09 <neynah> Would be great if we had someone give a talk in Berlin: http://csvconf.com/ :D

01:12 <asheesh> neynah: IMHO you or I should send a two-sentence email to sandstorm-dev and sandstorm-captains on the topic. Do you want to, or should I? (I would prefer you to, but I care enough about it not getting dropped on the floor that I am totally willing to instead of you.)

01:38 <asheesh> Today at lunch I suggested capnproto to a friend who works at Apple.

01:39 <asheesh> I mean, a well-known fruit vendor.

01:39 <asheesh> Typo, sorry. : P

02:06 <asheesh> Yo all who are in the SF Bay Area

02:06 <asheesh> Apparently there is an anticapitalist hackathon this weekend: https://roundtown.com/event/46876051/Hack-the-Left-An-Anticapitalist-Hackathon-San-Francisco-CA

02:06 <asheesh> Some of you might like to go!

03:16 <mnutt_> kentonv: I just submitted davros v0.15.3 to fix canuky's issue from yesterday

03:16 <kentonv> mnutt_: thanks for the ping, approved

03:16 <mnutt_> thanks!

03:16 <kentonv> what was the issue?

03:17 <kentonv> there was another person here recently saying he couldn't get the Windows client to connect

03:17 <mnutt_> I think that's unrelated, unfortunately

03:17 <mnutt_> I was doing permissions based on http methods; at some point I switched the UI to talk directly to webdav and forgot to whitelist PROPFIND for the 'read' permission

20:53 <asheesh> There are so many amazing blog posts going on in Sandstorm community land.

20:53 <asheesh> It's astonishing.

20:54 <asheesh> http://jorgenmodin.net/index_html/15-second-whirlwind-test-of-sandstorm-apps

20:54 <asheesh> https://blog.fcestrada.com/add-piwik-on-sandstorm-to-ghost/

20:54 <asheesh> http://jorgenmodin.net/index_html/15-second-whirlwind-test-of-sandstorm-apps

20:54 <asheesh> Oh wait that's a duplicate.

21:19 <dograt> Really hope sandstorm catches on at the desktop environment level, or the app add-on level (wordpress, kodi, etc.), in addition to the webapp level. God knows those things could use some POLA and powerbox.

21:19 <dograt> But I guess that's a lot more work

21:19 <dograt> (Have to create actual interfaces rather than using a generic HTTP shim)

21:20 <asheesh> dograt: The good news is that GNOME sandboxing is interested in making some of that happen.

21:20 <asheesh> re: create actual interfaces: The "powerbox" is supposed to help with that; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gP9H8cEnlw for recent talk about it.

21:21 <dograt> Cool I will check tht out, asheesh

21:21 <dograt> I like the work subgraph OS is doing on Gnome

21:21 <asheesh> re: app add-ons: We're hopeful that maybe it'll make sense for people to publish "add-on apps" which are an extra directory of files, like wp-content/plugins/plugin-name/

21:21 <asheesh> And then you could get those from the Sandstorm App Market.

21:21 <asheesh> That's somewhat pie-in-the-sky at the moment.

21:22 <dograt> Right

21:23 <dograt> asheesh: also that doesn't solve the issues I was thinking about if I understand you correctly (basically grabbing a tarball off of an app store?)

21:24 <asheesh> Yeah, tarball off an app store, and it becomes part of a grain that you connect it to. What more would you want for app add-on level?

21:24 <dograt> I was thinking along the lines of an application defining resources and a capnproto interface

21:24 <asheesh> Ah, gotcha

21:24 <dograt> For the app<->add-on

21:24 <asheesh> That is 100% what the powerbox is!

21:24 <asheesh> All capnproto, all the time

21:24 <dograt> Maybe chrome pepper would be a model, but I'm not familiar with that

21:24 <asheesh> https://sandstorm.io/news/2014-12-15-capnproto-0.5

21:25 <asheesh> "This has powerful implications: Consider the case of service discovery."

21:25 <dograt> Not share address space, no global namespace shared between potentially mutually-suspicious add-ons within one app

21:26 <dograt> Yep. I really like the design.

21:26 <dograt> Just hope it gets pushed down into the app level rather than deployment level, at some point in the future.

21:27 <asheesh> Gotcha - yes, the idea in the longer term would be that apps could create sub-grains for isolating components of themselves.

21:28 <dograt> Yeah. I think I got really excited about capnproto carrying E-lang's torch into the modern world, but then get a little disappointed when I discover that people are packing half a Linux into each component

21:28 <dograt> With a mysql and apache and ...

21:29 <dograt> But hey, it sure beats not using it :)

21:31 <asheesh> : D

21:31 <asheesh> That's about where I am on it, yeah (-:

21:34 <dograt> asheesh: my hypothetical design would be something like, a desktop app asking its container, hey give me a sqlite store, show me an address book, etc.

21:35 <asheesh> IMHO "give me a sqlite store" isn't an action that requires user consent, since the app writing data on its own is not a privacy-invasive action.

21:35 <asheesh> It's sharing the data with others that is the privacy-invasive action.

21:36 <dograt> That's fair. Although I would like to push static data up from the app to the container, so that you could, say, start another instance of your mail program, and it would have no recollection of having been run before, without deleting your old instance.

21:37 <dograt> c.f. a different installation of the app that perhaps has different hardcoded paths or that you run under a different user account, in the traditional UNIX application paradigm

21:45 <asheesh> FWIW by default in Sandstorm each new "grain" has no awareness of other grains, so maybe that covers things! But yeah, getting that concept integrated smoothly with a desktop interface is another story.

21:45 <asheesh> If you decide you want to push the GNOME Sandboxing people in that direction, it would be completely great.

21:45 <asheesh> We would help to the extent we can.

21:47 <dograt> I don't know if Gnome sandboxing is still a thing. There's a page on their wiki from years ago. Other than that Subgraph OS is doing terrific work on sandboxing Gnome but it has less of a capability flavor than Sandstorm, which I'm more inclined towards.

21:48 <dograt> (Inclined towards capability flavour, not lack thereof)

21:48 <asheesh> nod