apeiros changed the topic of #ruby to: Ruby 2.1.1; 2.0.0-p451; 1.9.3-p545: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com || this channel is logged at http://irclog.whitequark.org, other public logging is prohibited
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<pontiki> this also works in older rubies: Hash[array.map{|x| [x.name, x.value]}]
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<Solnse> that's what I was afraid of: NoMethodError: undefined method `value' for #<Nokogiri::XML::Element:0x000000045fbeb0>
<centrx> *five different ways of doing it
<pontiki> hee
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<pontiki> hum
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<pontiki> input fields have to have a name attribute, i thought...
<centrx> yeah I don't see how that would be caused by either of these solutions
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<Solnse> document.css('input').map { |input| [input.name, input.value] }.to_h
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<centrx> If it input.value worked before, it would work now
<crucify_me> http://pastie.org/9140807 hi why would we need a regex on line 13 to return a metaclass' instance methods
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<centrx> crucify_me, Only gets methods with the word "speak" in the name
<centrx> crucify_me, Seems like bad practice
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<centrx> but could be okay with rigorous coding standards
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<crucify_me> centrx: thanks I'm going to try something else.
<pontiki> line 13 is filtering metaclass's instance_methods with grep
<pontiki> that's all
<crucify_me> filtering? I figured instance_methods would be enough pontiki
<pontiki> otherwise, you can end up with lots and lots of them
<crucify_me> ok thanks
<pontiki> >> Array.instance_methods.count
<eval-in_> pontiki => 169 (https://eval.in/146374)
<RubyPanther> I do that stuff all the time, most often foo.methods.sort - Object.instance_methods
<pontiki> Array.instance_methods.grep(/select/)
<pontiki> >> Array.instance_methods.grep(/select/)
<eval-in_> pontiki => [:select, :select!] (https://eval.in/146375)
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<pontiki> see?
<Solnse> it's not 'populating' the hash... but merely leaving the last value pair... params: {"input"=>"Sign In (Secure)"}
<RubyPanther> documentation is for the weak
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<crucify_me> yeah pontiki thank you makes sense.
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<pontiki> hum... solnse, Hash doesn't have a push method AFAIK...
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<crucify_me> 'metaclass = class << matz' yeah for a second I thought metaclass was a keyword not a pointer, adding confusion
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<Solnse> pontiki, thanks I figured it out, I need to use input['name'] instead of input.name
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<pontiki> oh, rigthy! soz
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<crucify_me> hi on the same program, I commented out line 10, and got an error. Won't 'class << matz' be sufficient to indicate self? (since matz = Object.new creates the 'hidden' metaclass) http://pastie.org/9140845
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<arrubin> crucify_me: Does this help? http://ideone.com/RRjXrC
<havenwood> >> class Example; end
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<eval-in_> havenwood => nil (https://eval.in/146376)
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<crucify_me> arrubin: one second thanks
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<crucify_me> arrubin: no because I thought self was needed to 'get to' the "hidden" metaclass of the matz object. ( from a tutorial )
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<crucify_me> ^so I don't see what's happening on lines 9,10
<arrubin> crucify_me: http://ideone.com/h4qwen
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<arrubin> crucify_me: And did you look at havenwood's example?
<crucify_me> arrubin: not yet thanks. I am a bit lost right now.
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<crucify_me> thanks havenwood working on it.
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<havenwood> crucify_me: You're assigning to the return value of the `class` keyword, which is whatever its definition block returns.
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<havenwood> Not it itself.
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<havenwood> >> [class Str; 'example' end, class Int; 42 end, class Sym; :example end]
<eval-in_> havenwood => ["example", 42, :example] (https://eval.in/146377)
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<havenwood> maybe less confusing with class name the same:
<havenwood> >> [class Example; 'example' end, class Example; 42 end, class Example; :example end]
<eval-in_> havenwood => ["example", 42, :example] (https://eval.in/146378)
<havenwood> crucify_me: nothing fancy is going on, just the return value is the definition block's return value
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<crucify_me> oh yeah so self in this case is the metaclass of the matz object itself
<crucify_me> Can I put it that way havenwood ?
<havenwood> crucify_me: depending on where in the script you're talking, self varies
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<havenwood> crucify_me: do you mean what is `self` within the definition block for the singleton class of `matz`?
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<crucify_me> line 10 I thought would be redundant because matz was already ascribed as a metaclass in the first line : matz = Object.new
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<havenwood> crucify_me: what kinda tutorial are you going through? :P
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<crucify_me> one that may be strangely worded..
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<crucify_me> havenwood: put differently, line 10 'self' is returning matz's metaclass or singleton status, which includes all Class methods along with #speak.
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<havenwood> crucify_me: terminology isn't right, but i think your understanding is
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<crucify_me> havenwood: thank you . more possible drama soon.
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<crucify_me> many thanks ^
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<fayesal> There seems to be a bug in ruby's stdlib zlib GZipWriter class. You cannot give an mtime of 0 - it is replaced with the current time. Can there be a better default like nil which has that effect, leaving 0 to be usable as 0?
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<fayesal> I need to create gzip files with 0'd out mtime.
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<centrx> How about 1?
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<fayesal> centrx: 1 creates 1. not 0.
<ari-_-e> if I reference instance data in a Rakefile, what exactly is the "instance" in that case?
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<ari-_-e> like inside a task definition?
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<crucify_me> havenwood: well, my confusion is simple. Why isn't metaclass = 'class << matz' sufficient, why does it have to be in the form of a block when the matz singleton class is given assignment?
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<havenwood> fayesal: {-1=>"2106-02-06 22:28:15 -0800", 0=>"2014-05-04 18:48:55 -0700", 1=>"1969-12-31 16:00:01 -0800"}
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<fayesal> havenwood: -1 = FFFFFFFF, as expected. 1 = 0000001 as expected 0 = NOW as not expected.
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<havenwood> >> metaclass = class << Object; end; metaclass
<eval-in_> havenwood => nil (https://eval.in/146391)
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<fayesal> I tried nil, it said it wasn't an Integer.
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<havenwood> crucify_me: `class` is returning the return value of the definition block
<havenwood> crucify_me: that is just how it is designed
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<Steve21> any make a recomendation for a simple lib for scheduling taks far in the future? potentially tens of thoundands of “jobs” months away
<crucify_me> fair enough havenwood thank you kindly
<havenwood> crucify_me: no prob
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<Steve21> been looking at Resque and Sidekiq, but have been less than imprcess
<Steve21> impressed
<havenwood> crucify_me: yeah, it is kinda like #puts returning `nil`, it just does
<havenwood> crucify_me: you can avoid the `class` keyword if you need to
<crucify_me> how?
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<havenwood> crucify_me: AnExample = Class.new do; end #=> AnExample
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<crucify_me> cool thanks . this is the tutorial as you asked earlier havenwood (yehuda katz) http://yehudakatz.com/2009/11/15/metaprogramming-in-ruby-its-all-about-the-self/
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<havenwood> crucify_me: aha. yeah using smalltalk vernacular in ruby can be confusing.
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<crucify_me> uh oh havenwood I'll hash that out another day unless you want to warn me now of specifics.
<havenwood> crucify_me: i just haven't had enough caffeine today ;P
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<crucify_me> sacrilege ! I always drink plenty havenwood
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<havenwood> crucify_me: ya know, the issue is his article targets 1.8
<havenwood> crucify_me: 1.8 is dead!
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<havenwood> crucify_me: i should have realized this earlier >.>
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<crucify_me> I thought that might be a problem .. havenwood but I need to know this stuff I don't come from a programming background.
<havenwood> crucify_me: I'd say just skip this tutorial, since it is dated. 1.9.3+ for currently applicable stuff.
<havenwood> crucify_me: No point in learning 1.8.
<havenwood> crucify_me: 2.1 ftw!
<crucify_me> really it's that far off ? ok will do I have 2.1 installed.
<crucify_me> thanks!
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<havenwood> fayesal: Really odd indeed. Should be documented if there really is a reason not to fix it I suppose?
<fayesal> havenwood: I am working around it for now by using a stringio and buf[4,4]="\0\0\0\0"
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<havenwood> mm
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<benzrf> fun fact
<benzrf> ruby may have a spermy operator
<benzrf> but haskell has a spermier operator!!
<benzrf> <>~
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<fayesal> benzrf: more like a mouse.
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<richardo> hey anyone wants to help me with a photoshop project
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<richardo> #computer
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<krz> how can i turn ['a','b'] to 'a', 'b'
<krz> do i need to splat?
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<popl> krz: how do you mean?
<krz> popl: i need to feed a ruby array into a NOT IN sql statement
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<RubyPanther> krz: if you use a modern ORM you won't "need" (or want) to do that
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<wallerdev> if youre not concerned about sql injection its pretty easy haha
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<jblack> perhaps "'#{yourarray.join("','")}'"
<wallerdev> nah youd need to map first
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<wallerdev> oh i see haha
<wallerdev> yeah that works
<wallerdev> i was thinking like map(&:inspect).join(‘,’)
<wallerdev> or somethin
<jblack> I'm not familiar with &:inspect
<wallerdev> >> ‘a’.inspect
<eval-in_> wallerdev => undefined local variable or method `‘a’' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/146407)
<wallerdev> ugh
<Senjai> hahaha
<jblack> hmm, to_s looks similiar to inspect
<wallerdev> >> 'a'.inspect
<eval-in_> wallerdev => "\"a\"" (https://eval.in/146408)
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<wallerdev> no idea why smart quotes were enabled haha
<popl> krz: are you using ruby proper or rails?
<Senjai> Derpalerp
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<jblack> I got the same thing in irb. stackoverflow suggests output typically looks differently for &inspect
<Senjai> krz: where.not(thing: array)
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<krz> popl: rails but using ar base
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<wallerdev> pretty sure activerecord has stuff you can call for escaping even with the sql stuff
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<krz> hm let me ask in ror
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<jblack> he should be at least using prepare, so as to avoid sql injection
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<popl> This whole lack of a central repository for good Ruby tutorials seems a bit asinine.
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<RubyPanther> popl: why would tutorials have a central repository if they come from different sources?
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<jblack> popl: Did you mean a centralized list of tutorials?
<RubyPanther> You can make a list of links, but then half of them will be out of date and have false informationb
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<popl> jblack: Yes.
<jblack> There's a great list online, then. ;)
<popl> We would just need to create a list and make sure it is properly curated.
<jblack> https://www.google.com/#q=ruby+tutorial
<popl> that's stupid
<jblack> that with a couple keywords always works for me. ;)
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<popl> The problem with that, jblack, is that any idiot who can get ranked higher on Google will draw the novice's attention.
<popl> Isn't that antithetical to the goal of helping people learn good Ruby practices?
<jblack> Hey, if you want make a nice curated list, go for it. That would be awesome. Most people gave up on that a decade ago.
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<popl> Why?
<popl> Is there an old copy of a tutorial list then?
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<popl> I'd be interested in seeing it.
<jblack> In general? Because, like panther said, it's too hard to maintain and keep up to date.
<popl> It's not too hard.
<popl> The Perl people do it.
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<popl> The Bash people do it.
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<Solnse> sound like you found your project.
<Senjai> Come now, do perl and bash ever REALLLLYY change?
<popl> Yeah, I'm not going to get into a Perl discussion. The point is that it's not difficult.
<jblack> they could invent a way to use ... hmmm, they did run out of characters in perl... didn't they
<Solnse> lol
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<Senjai> popl: Do you know what else isn't difficult? Using the googlez
<popl> Your language prejudice is your issue. :P
<Senjai> popl: I love perl and bash
<popl> Whatever.
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<popl> That's like saying "I'm not racist, but…".
<RubyPanther> Perl tried to change, but they refused to use their own changes.
<popl> Nothing following that phrase is ever good.
<Solnse> and you're failing at taking the high road.
<jblack> Hey, if you like perl, more power to ya. =) There's a great many useful things to use with it.
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<RubyPanther> "If you want to do everything using object-oriented programming then Ruby is a better language than Perl" -- Saint Wall
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<jblack> yay. language wars.
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<RubyPanther> I think Larry Wall's point was that different languages aren't at war, they just have a different focus. He followed that statement with a defense of procedural programming.
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<RubyPanther> If you decide which language you want to use before you decide which style of structure you want, the cart might be in front of the horse
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<jblack> Larry's always been deeply pragmatic.
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<jblack> His whole mantra is that there's more than one way to do it.
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<RubyPanther> I'm not convinced, I think his position is based on a deeply-held principle rather than any pragmatism.
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<RubyPanther> More than one way is based on natural language principles, not pragmatism
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<havenwood> In other news, Perl6 seems quite nice. You can see Ruby's influence.
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<jblack> I don't pragmatisim isn't quite an anti-principle.
<jblack> pardon I don't think it's quite an anti-principle.
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<RubyPanther> havenwood: Yeah, I'd been waiting for Perl 6 for 5 years when I switched to Ruby...
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<RubyPanther> That was 10 years ago. I think it is safe to say by now that Perl hackers refuse to use 6. ;)
<jblack> It takes a great deal of effort to concurrently grok multiple possiblities.
<havenwood> RubyPanther: It's not like Python 3 where it's a stable release though and folks still refuse to switch. *Soon!* :P
<RubyPanther> Yeah, I'd argue that taking Ideological Orthogonality to the next level is what makes Perl 6 _unusable_
<havenwood> RubyPanther: Personally I'd have called it by a new name rather than a major version bump.
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<RubyPanther> havenwood: I don't know about Python 3 at all, but the only reason Perl 6 couldn't get to a stable release is that they couldn't get it to a point anybody was willing to use
<jblack> you're so biased against unreadable languages. :P
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<Senjai> jblack: what languages are unreadable?
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<havenwood> RubyPanther: I guess we'll see if things change now that a few of the VMs are almost feature complete?: http://perl6.org/compilers/features
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<havenwood> RubyPanther: Can hardly fault people for not switching to a lang until at least one VM implements it.
<RubyPanther> Perl 6 was destined to fail, because it was "the community's rewrite" of the language, and the language was based on deep linguistics theory, on the principles of natural language. That sort of advanced, theory-based system is going to be totally destroyed by a committee, even a committee of experts. It needs AN expert.
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<jblack> Senjai: It's not the languages themselves. Most any language can be written in cleanly.....
<RubyPanther> havenwood: In 2004 there was already a VM that had implemented most of it and had been in use for _years_
<havenwood> RubyPanther: doesn't Larry Wall maintain the Perl6 reference grammar and work on it primarily?
<jblack> but how likely is it that one will write code that they can't themselves read? That's an important, though hard to read metric.
<RubyPanther> havenwood: Yeah, but his role was only to fix the community's contributions
<havenwood> RubyPanther: hem, i thought it was more involved
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<RubyPanther> No, he was really clear about that "back in the day." He said that Perl 5 was his rewrite of Perl 4, and Perl 6 was the community's rewrite. He was involved as a filter, but it was 100% community-driven
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<RubyPanther> It started with the RFC's which had Larry totally staying hidden, the community had to come up with what they wanted to be different, he didn't explain what we should want or why we should want it. then... "The Bad part was that I was supposed to take these RFCs and produce a coherent design in two weeks. ... It is now five months later, and I've been mulling over coherence the whole time, for some definition of mulling." --- Larry W
<RubyPanther> all 2001
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<havenwood> RubyPanther: Well, I look forward to checking it out when they have it finished one of these Christmases.
<pontiki> we shall all see a rebirth and the 6th coming of the practical extraction and reporting program
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<havenwood> perl11 folk picked up _why's torch with potion https://github.com/perl11/potion#readme
<havenwood> ~ p ooOOOo tion ~
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<havenwood> speaking of unfinished languages..
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<havenwood> maybe we'll have language detecting polyglot vms soon enough?
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<havenwood> or not? :P
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<pontiki> i am sure there are some folk grinding on that
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<RubyPanther> I enjoyed coding in Perl more than I do in Ruby. But my own code gave me NIH and so had to be re-written every year. And if I had a "good" day where I was really seeing clearly, then that day's code would be unreadable.
<jblack> huh. I love ruby far more than I ever did perl.
<RubyPanther> In Ruby, good or bad, my code is a bit simple and boring.
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<pontiki> i like writing perl, but i never really wrote very many apps with it. i used it for all sorts of one-liners and one-offs, and lots of tiny utilities
<RubyPanther> The part I enjoy more with Ruby is the C extensions. I don't want an extra glue language to glue my glue to my glue.
<pontiki> but getting into ruby, i also started to think a lot differently, a lot more like i did when Lisp was my main language, back in Uni
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<RubyPanther> Procedural is more expressive than OO, that's why I enjoy it more. But that is also why my code was crap. If you're disciplined enough to write Perl without being creative, then it is probably better than it was for me.
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<RubyPanther> In Perl the best techniques are "expert-friendly." In Ruby, "expert-friendly" would be a slap in the face, a blatant insult.
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<hgl> hash value can't be an expression? I got syntax with this { path: File.expand_path '.' }
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<Burgestrand> hgl: try with parentheses
<Hanmac> >> { path: File.expand_path('.') }
<eval-in_> Hanmac => {:path=>"/tmp/execpad-d116c7c8aacb"} (https://eval.in/146419)
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<Burgestrand> >> { path: (File.expand_path '.') } # is fine too
<eval-in_> Burgestrand => {:path=>"/tmp/execpad-c6054c8df9d2"} (https://eval.in/146420)
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<hgl> Burgestrand, Hanmac, thanks guys, that fixed it. are there any rules online I can follow as to when parens can be omitted?
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<Burgestrand> hgl: don’t know. My own rule is that in case of syntax error, add parens.
<hgl> Burgestrand, ok, that's a good rule. :)
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<pontiki> you can omit them when the expression isn't ambiguous to the parser \o/
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<uv0> a
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<minver> How do I get all products with the lowest price? min = products.min_by { |x| x.price }; products.select { |x| x.price == min }, is there a better way?
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<LadyRainicorn> products.min_by(&:price)
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<minver> LadyRainicorn: That only returns 1 records. I want to return multiple if that exists
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<Hanmac> minver: i think yours is the only way
<LadyRainicorn> Well, you can do it in one loop more efficiently, but it looks less nice.
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<Hanmac> ps you forgot to call .price after min_by but remember min_by can return nil if array is empty
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<Hanmac> minver: so you need to check first if products is empty
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<minver> Hanmac: Yeah I replaced it with: min = products.minimum(:price);
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<Hanmac> hmmm that smells after rails shit
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<Burgestrand> price, products = products.group_by(&:price).min
<Burgestrand> minver: ^
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<minver> Burgestrand: Sweet, thanks
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<Burgestrand> minver: give it a try before you thank me, I’m not sure it’ll work :P
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<timgauthier> HAI KIDZ!
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<timgauthier> chirp chirp
<timgauthier> i guess i have to actually write now
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<shevy> I am back!
<shevy> stupid internet
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<Hanmac> shevy: YEAH! did you know i made 26 commits yesterday for rwx ... and the rdoc-commented ratio > 60%
<shevy> cool
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<shevy> Hanmac don't forget working examples! they are more important than pure rdoc
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<Hanmac> yeah,yeah ... i will made samples later, currently i am adding more classes ... the last days i did try to comment functions & constants without adding new stuff (i didnt managed it always)
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<shevy> hehe
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<fusiosio> In a class I found online, there's a getter method 'tags'. It's definition looks like `def tags=(tags)`. What does this mean? Is the = part of the method name? What do the parens mean in this example?
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<shevy> fusiosio by definition, a method with = can never be a getter
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<shevy> fusiosio = is part of the method name, yes; that is why it is included before the ()
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<shevy> definitions in ruby usually have a (), although the ruby parser allows you to omit parens
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<shevy> I like my parens in method definitions
<shevy> def foo a,b,c,d
<shevy> def foo(a,b,c,d)
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<etqqkoiflwhb_> fusiosio: def tags=(tags), is the setter
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<fusiosio> etqqkoiflwhb_: of course yeah
<etqqkoiflwhb_> so you can say, post.tags = [ ..list of tags.. ]
<fusiosio> shevy: I get it! Thanks for clearing my mind up
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<fusiosio> etqqkoiflwhb_: and that line will run the method with the array as argument? Not try to set the property tags of object post? I mean: it's gonna be treaded as a method call, not variable assignment?
<timgauthier> i should have had a name like ddjsfh
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<jhass> fusiosio: yes, obj.something = else is a method call, something = else is an assignment
<jhass> always
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<etqqkoiflwhb_> fusiosio: yep, its equivalent to post.set_tags(tags)
<etqqkoiflwhb_> the list of tags is passed as the tags argument
<fusiosio> jhass: etqqkoiflwhb_: omfg. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
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<shevy> timgauthier are you still using php
<timgauthier> currently at this exact moment no
<timgauthier> are you?
<timgauthier> I'm writing my website in java right now
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<shevy> timgauthier I abandoned php years ago in favour of ruby, all my web needs are covered by ruby currently
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<timgauthier> yeah i'm using middleman for my current gig but i'll likely use perch or craft on whatever i do next
<LadyRainicorn> shevy: But how will you calculate the date of Easter?!!?
<shevy> LadyRainicorn with Time.new!
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<timgauthier> blasphamy
<timgauthier> you must build a bespoke method
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<LadyRainicorn> But it's not a builtin!
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<LadyRainicorn> And if you write your own method it might be ... accurate! :0
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<timgauthier> if you get a bespoke watch made it might not tell time! :P
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<timgauthier> yeah but seriously, i wouldn't trust shevy to code me a clock
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<timgauthier> we all know he writes his date wrong
<shevy> LadyRainicorn I am a big fan of making ruby FAT
<shevy> FAT BATTERIES INCLUDED
<timgauthier> FAT?
<shevy> anything that may be useful gets in
<LadyRainicorn> timgauthier: The joke is that shevy's method would be accuratem
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<timgauthier> ah ok
<shevy> AND people can also vote on what is included (but not what gets excluded hahahaha)
<LadyRainicorn> The PHP builtin calculates easter inaccurately.
<LadyRainicorn> (but is retained for backwards compatibility)
<timgauthier> backwards compatibility but being wrong?
<LadyRainicorn> Yes.
<timgauthier> i'd rather them break it so people have to fix it :P
<timgauthier> ohhh, they won't fix it because it will break all the things people did to work around it
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<timgauthier> so what, fix that shit, when people update they have to fix their broken work arounds
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<timgauthier> you should see some of the brutal colours i'm trying out for the header of the new section of my site :O!@
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<LadyRainicorn> That's not how PHP works.
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<shevy> hehe
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<timgauthier> php works?
<shevy> php is designed to make people go crazy
<LadyRainicorn> "It's not a bug-it's a feature!" is the motto.
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<LadyRainicorn> PHP works (for Cthulhu)
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<LadyRainicorn> ^ the joke
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<timgauthier> brutal thread to read
<timgauthier> glad i only ever used php as a template language
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<benzrf> LadyRainicorn: do u know any haskell
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<LadyRainicorn> I started learning it a while ago but then never did, so not really.
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<apeiros> LadyRainicorn: you know, there are a couple of such gotchas in ruby too. but the sheer number of those in php is simply jaw dropping
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<timgauthier> yeah the or and || precedence thing is one of them.
<benzrf> LadyRainicorn: do u monads
<LadyRainicorn> Why is that a gotcha?
<timgauthier> because i wouldn't have known about something weird like that.
<timgauthier> since everything i read about ruby is all about the use plain language
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<LadyRainicorn> It's not that weird and somewhat useful.
<timgauthier> so when its like "use the non english syntax or it doesn't do what you actually think it does"
<LadyRainicorn> Not really.
<timgauthier> its my opinion
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<apeiros> I'm still not sure precedence tables with >5 levels are ever a good idea
* apeiros intends to play with explicit precedence in his language
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<apeiros> (except for symbolic methods in the sugared form, like 5 + 2 * 3 == 11)
<LadyRainicorn> I think it begaves pretty reasonably.
<LadyRainicorn> or usually does what I would expect it to.
<apeiros> I think it wouldn't be damaging to only have one or/and and use parens when you want "the other behavior"
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<LadyRainicorn> What case have you run into where it was confusing?
<benzrf> LadyRainicorn: anyway
<timgauthier> since i mostly use it for templates, so far none
<apeiros> LadyRainicorn: without cheating, which has higher precedence: `and` or `or`?
<apeiros> same question for `&&` and `||`
<benzrf> LadyRainicorn: it occurred to me that finn should totally shout 'MONADIC!' at some piont
<timgauthier> but someone showed me an example last week of something whre it was like This == that or these or those
<benzrf> *point
<timgauthier> for a non programmer, i wouldn't have known that it doesn't do what i expect
<apeiros> timgauthier: well, non-programmers are admittedly not a target audience ;-)
<shevy> timgauthier yeah, it's annoying
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<timgauthier> i expect this is that, or these, or those
<shevy> timgauthier matz likes "and" though
<apeiros> timgauthier: IMO a language should not cater to the uneducated.
<timgauthier> true, but ruby is advertised as a language for the designers
<LadyRainicorn> Almost all languages work like that.
<aross> apeiros: `and` and `or` has the same precedence.
<timgauthier> because of the plain english syntax
<apeiros> aross: ssssh, don't spoil it
<LadyRainicorn> Ruby is not advertised as such.
<shevy> aross why not '&&' and 'and'
<timgauthier> well its how i ended up here
<apeiros> aross: the fun point is about `and` and `or` having the same precedence, while `&&` and `||` do not
<LadyRainicorn> Maybe Cucumber, but that shit's cray.
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<aross> `&&` has higher then `and`
<timgauthier> naw, ruby and then rails where advertised as a way for designers to write code to make apps without having a programmer
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<timgauthier> that statement is woefully inaccurate
<shevy> timgauthier well mostly rails, ruby did not do much advertisement before rails really
<apeiros> `&&` also has higher precedence than `||`
<LadyRainicorn> Huh, && and || having different precedence is odd.
<timgauthier> but i still do see articles recommending ruby for designers because of the plain english
<shevy> :)
<wuest> timgauthier: they were? Ick.
<apeiros> LadyRainicorn: not really. in many logic systems, and/or have different precedences.
<LadyRainicorn> Though I still see why.
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<timgauthier> and for the most part, ruby is GREAT for that, the plain english syntax is awesome, but when you know that you need to use || isntead of or in that situation, then awesome!
<apeiros> but the two different and/or's having different relative precedence is odd indeed IMO, and inconsistent
<LadyRainicorn> x&&y || z
<shevy> ack
<apeiros> if `&&` > `||`, then IMO `and` > `or`, but that's not the case.
<shevy> why did you not even put spaces around &&
<shevy> you evil ponicorn you
<timgauthier> i get confused even in mathmatics by things like that, so i use the () a lot
<LadyRainicorn> :3
<shevy> timgauthier yeah, I do sometimes in ruby too
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<LadyRainicorn> To signal precedence ;p
<shevy> if foo and ! foo.include?('bla')
<shevy> LadyRainicorn but it's harder to read!
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<shevy> hmm
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<timgauthier> if i just use just = (this or that or those) then i suspect its a bit easier for me to understand and i suspect it is more likely to do what i want
<shevy> x&&y||z
<aross> apeiros: I think its great. IMO `and` and `or` works perfect in flow control while `||` and `&&` is more fore comparison. And most of the time deep nested `and`, `or`, `||` and `&&` makes code hard to read.
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<shevy> timgauthier all programming languages have warts
<LadyRainicorn> I am not sure exactly what behaviour you want from that.
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<shevy> LadyRainicorn I want everything! all the time! GIMME MORE
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<shevy> I want random interpretation of lines at runtime
<shevy> surprise me with the outcome!
<LadyRainicorn> I like this idea.
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<timgauthier> i'm game
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<apeiros> aross: you're missing my point
<apeiros> aross: 14:36 apeiros: if `&&` > `||`, then IMO `and` > `or`, but that's not the case.
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<apeiros> but besides that point, I still maintain that it IMO wouldn't be damaging to just throw out and/or and require parens for their current use-cases.
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<timgauthier> apeiros i'd prefer to keep both and or else etc but make them equal to || && ==
<timgauthier> etc
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<apeiros> timgauthier: no
<apeiros> I'm deeply against aliases
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<timgauthier> but why would you rather use || instaed of "or" ?
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<timgauthier> so why not both
<apeiros> except for semantic reasons. (e.g. Object defines ==, eql?, equal? and they all have a different semantic, but for a given class, their implementation might be identical, and then an alias is acceptable)
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<apeiros> timgauthier: I wouldn't really care which one of them to keep
<timgauthier> i don't see why its bad to have more then one way to do it.
<apeiros> in ruby, I'd go with && and || because they're more widely used
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<apeiros> but in a fresh language, I'd probably go with and/or
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<apeiros> timgauthier: because it *is not* more than one way to do it
<timgauthier> i don't know, you hit rails and then ruby is using "and", "or"
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<apeiros> it's "lets put a different label on *the same* way to do it"
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<timgauthier> and whats bad with that?
<apeiros> assuming we're talking about aliasing
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<apeiros> timgauthier: quick, tell me the difference between map/collect, inject/reduce, reject/delete_if
<timgauthier> i'm a newb so i can't tell you the difference between much
<apeiros> timgauthier: good, then you should see that part of the argument already: instead of learning 3 methods, you now learn 6
<timgauthier> i'm for aliases that turn things to plain text vs whatever you call "||"
<apeiros> timgauthier: if your intention is to use text instead of symbols, then drop the symbols. don't just alias.
<apeiros> aliases are bad. they add overhead for no gain.
<Burgestrand> reject!/delete_if
<Burgestrand> no?
<Burgestrand> ;_
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<apeiros> Burgestrand: 1 of 2 possible points earned :)
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<Burgestrand> \o/
<Burgestrand> I'll use them to get lunch
<apeiros> Burgestrand: but not both point because reject!/delete_if are not equivalent
<apeiros> map/collect -> alias
<apeiros> inject/reduce -> alias
<apeiros> reject/reject!/delete_if -> different methods, doing different things, just similar
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<apeiros> and having tons of aliases forces you to remember a) which ones are actually aliases and b) which ones aren't. and it *will* cause you to miss it once in a while.
<Burgestrand> I don't like aliases
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* apeiros neither
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<Burgestrand> reject/reject! is okay, delete_if is… too similar to reject! to be okay
<apeiros> it's a fucked up try to appease everbody, making it worse for all
<Burgestrand> I mean, they only differ in return value
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<Burgestrand> Anyway… food!
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<csmrfx> aliases are like symlinks
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<csmrfx> if you put in more than a couple...
<csmrfx> ...soon you will be lost in a jungle of references
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<timgauthier> I like to refrence symlinks with symlinks...
<timgauthier> i kid
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<pontiki> you must be the author of /etc/alternative
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<fusiosio> Why would you define a method on a class with `def self.methodname()` rather than `def methodname()`?
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<shvelo> Arr
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<timgauthier> shevy, shvelo ... why such close names...
<timgauthier> and the same colour!
* timgauthier imploads
<Burgestrand> fusiosio: your two examples are different
<shvelo> shevy is my communist clone from Horsehead nebula
<Burgestrand> fusiosio: er, they are not equivalent
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<fusiosio> Burgestrand: what's the difference? Don't they both define a method on any object that is a child of this class?
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<Burgestrand> fusiosio: `def self.method` define a method on the class itself, on the same level as the `new` method on any class
<Burgestrand> fusiosio: `def method` defines a method on instances of the class
<Burgestrand> fusiosio: http://ideone.com/0g2r5q
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<Burgestrand> fusiosio: if you have experience in other OO languages, `def self.some_method` is similar to a static method in java
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<Burgestrand> It's not the entire truth, because ruby is very versatile, but it's what you need for an initial understanding
<fusiosio> Burgestrand: I see. Thank you for explaining! You made it very clear to me!
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<Burgestrand> fusiosio: good :) I have another example to bend your mind a bit
<fusiosio> Burgestrand: ooh
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<Burgestrand> fusiosio: http://ideone.com/0g2r5q
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<Burgestrand> fusiosio: every thing is an object, and every object has a hidden class called the `singleton class`, that is responsible for *that* particular object
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<fusiosio> Burgestrand: mind == blown. That's really cool!
<Burgestrand> fusiosio: when you do `def self.some_method`, you really add the method to the singleton class of that object
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<fusiosio> Burgestrand: wow
<Burgestrand> (actually, not all objects have a singleton class either… we could go on forever)
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<Burgestrand> fusiosio: so the important thing to remember when you see `def whatever.some_method`, think of what object `whatever` is… is it a string? a class? a module?
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<timgauthier> i'm out, going to pick up the car from chemnitz
<timgauthier> Tchüss
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<Bilge> Can you inherit from Symbol?
<pontiki> probably
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<Hanmac> Bilge: you can try it but it wouldnt be useful for you
<shvelo> Bilge, of course, you can inherit from any class
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<Burgestrand> except the singleton class
<Bilge> But I can't identify which symbol my class is representing since initialize is private?
<benzrf> ruby plebs r jelly of haskell quickcheck
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<Bilge> If I inherit from Symbol how can I define which Symbol I am?
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<Cope> Bilge: what problem are you actually trying to solve?
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<Cope> sometimes it's easier to describe what you're trying to rather than present your implementation, which might be flawed.
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<Bilge> I have some cards which have IDs that are symbols. I add the cards to a hash and I want to be able to pull them out by symbol name
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<Bilge> I can define equality between Card and Symbol by overriding == and eql? but this creates a barmy state where Card can be equal to Symbol but Symbol is not equal to card and therefore Hash.include? returns false still
<Cope> so you have a card class, with an attr_accessor for the id?
<Bilge> Yes
<Bilge> attr_reader
<Cope> so can't you just do hash[my_card.id] = my_card ?
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<Bilge> Well no because I'm actually using a Set rather than a hash directly
<Cope> why are you using a set?
<Bilge> It seemed like the right thing to do
<pontiki> famous last words...
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<Cope> why? :) what problem does it solve for you? I'm not saying it's wrong... just trying to get you to think about it
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<Bilge> So I can do things like subtract to remove ranges of cards or whatever
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<Cope> do you need that now?
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<Cope> or is it a 'handy just in case i might need it' kinda trhing
<Bilge> It's probably wrong, actually, since I don't really have a use case for that. I'd probably be removing ranges rather than matching cards
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<Cope> because if it's the latter, I'd tend to do the simplest thing first
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<Cope> and only complicate it if you actually need that feature
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<Bilge> Array might be more correct, but it will still have the same issue that I can't look up a card by its Symbol
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<pontiki> what does the card's ID consist of?
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<Hanmac1> shevy: look what i have found: http://opengameart.org/content/hexagon-tiles-93x
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<Bilge> pontiki: just a symbol
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<Cope> Bilge: so you're representing a deck of cards? Each card is an instance of a class card, and the deck is currently a set? And you want to be able to select a card from the set by id? you could do that with an array an a select statement... but I guess it'd be slower than using the id as a key in a hash
<aross> Anyone knows how to specify locale in rails `render` method for I18n?
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<Cope> aross: someone in the rails channel? #justsayin
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<Bilge> Yes, since Array.include? is O(n) and Hash is faster
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<Cope> you wouldn't do array.include... you'd use select from enumerable, and select on card.id
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<Cope> but it'd still be slower, but at the scale of 52ish cards I doubt performance is your biggest problem
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<Cope> it do whatever is the easiest and simplest implementation for your first feature... and refactor as you need to
<Cope> which is probably a hash
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<Bilge> It's not 52 cards
<Cope> ok :)
<Bilge> Whether I use a Hash or Set, the problem remains the same
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<Bilge> I cannot look up a Card in my Hash using the Symbol
<Cope> why not?
<Bilge> Because Cards are stored as the keys of the Hash
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<Cope> the key of the hash can be a symbol... sorry, maybe it'd help if you showed some code with your problem
<Cope> I might just be misunderstanding you
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<Bilge> I want the flexibility to be able to look up a Card by Card OR Symbol
<Bilge> They should be interchangable
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<Cope> ok... and that's a requirement now? what feature does it give you?
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<Cope> sorry not trying to be a jerk here, but unless you actually need that, you might want to do something simpler that works first.
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<Bilge> I think maybe you're right, this is a stupid idea
<Bilge> Since it is possible to have two cards with the same ID
<Bilge> It would be weird if someone had two of the same card, played one and the other one disappeared from their hand
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<Cope> are you modellinga specific game?
<Bilge> Uno
<Cope> cool!
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<Cope> I love this sort of thing.
<Bilge> It's a pretty fun pet project to learn Ruby :^)
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<Cope> i did a bunch of stuff like this in an embedded mud language - backgammon, bridge, monopoly etc
<Cope> ruby is much easier ;)
<Bilge> I still think my idea is good, actually, since the hash should respond to both Card and Symbol
<Bilge> If it is imperative to select a particular card then I would not look up by Symbol
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<Burgestrand> What kind of API do you want?
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<Burgestrand> An important rule to remember here: don't inherit from things you have no control over.
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<Cope> +!
<Cope> erm 1!
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<Bilge> Deck[:id] or Deck[Card.new(:id)]
<Burgestrand> Bilge: and you dont want to define #hash and #==?
<Burgestrand> Sorry, #eql?, not #==
<Bilge> I defined both of those things but include? still fails
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<Burgestrand> Bilge: #hash and #eql?, not #==
<Bilge> Because you cannot override #hash and #== for Symbol
<Burgestrand> Bilge: don't inherit from symbol first of all :)
<Bilge> I overrode all 3
<Bilge> I haven't
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<Bilge> I've encapsulated Symbol in @id
<Bilge> Then I overrode all of those methods
<Bilge> Then I was in a state where Card == Symbol but Symbol != Card
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<Bilge> Because depending on the order of operands depends on which equality method is called and I cannot change how Symbol behaves
<Bilge> Therefore Deck[:id] will always be false because it looks it up as Symbol.eql(Card) which is still always false
<Bilge> I mean Deck.include?(:id) will always be false
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<benzrf> i should try writing a hash map impl in C
<benzrf> to Cement My Understanding™
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<benzrf> basic idea is that you have an array of pointers to linked lists, then for insertion you hash the key, find that index, then append a k/v pair to the ll
<benzrf> and lookup you hash the key, find the index, than traverse comparing equality
<benzrf> right?
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<benzrf> hence the use of eql? in hashes
<Cope> benzrf: there's a chapter on how ruby implements hash functions in 'Ruby Under a Microscope' (excellent book)
<benzrf> mehlah:
<benzrf> *meh
<benzrf> ruby is ugly enough without training a microscope at it
<benzrf> fun fact i almost typed microsoft instead of microscope
<benzrf> i caught myself typing 'so' instead of 'sc'
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<Sawbones> Ruby isn't that ugly at all
<Sawbones> I think compared to other modern day languages it looks really nice
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<crome> it depends on how much you use advanced ruby features and shorthands
<Cope> I suspect benzrf is referring to the C implemention of MRI
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<Burgestrand> Bilge: make your own hash
<Cope> at least that's how I read it.
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<Sawbones> Oh ok
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<Cope> I might be tempted to use Structs - they're quite handy for this kind of thing.
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<benzrf> ruby is not so much ugly as messy
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<Sawbones> I don't really think so, not compared to something like C or Golang
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<Hanmac> shevy ruby mailing list https://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/4602286#new " If Ruby was a girl, what would she look like? "
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<atmosx> hello
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<webgen> rvm use 1.9.3@rottenpotatoes --default ------- I use this command, when I close terminal, go back to the project dir and say rvm gemset list it tells me it uses default but not the rottenpotatoes :S I am confused
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<Cope> in shock news, rvm confuses someone
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* Cope isn't a fan of rvm :(
<Cope> webgen: sorry, not constructive... but I gave up on rvm a long time ago, and mysteriously my problems and confusions went away!
<atmosx> Cope: I use it the last 3 years without problems
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* Cope nods; I'm sure thousands of people do - otherwise it wouldn't stay so popular
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<Cope> I'm a fan of simple things; probably because I'm a rather simple person :)
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<webgen> Cope, it seems fine its just i am a beginner, atmosx could you help me with my question in that case ? :D
<atmosx> webgen: use .ruby-gemset and .ruby-version
<webgen> atmosx, kk sek thx
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<atmosx> webgen: it's way better for projects
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<webgen> atmosx, you mean with rvm or? I dont understand how to use those commands in what context
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<Cope> webgen: I think you can create a file called .ruby-version
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<Cope> rvm will read it and set your version and gemset accordingly
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<havenwood> the .ruby-version convention is supported by rvm, chruby and rbenv
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<havenwood> i think rbenv's doesn't support globbing though?
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<atmosx> havenwood: no idea I'm happy with rvm since day 1 so I didn't switch to rbenv or chruby
<webgen> atmosx, thanks hehe! do I put that file at the project root?
<havenwood> atmosx: i went from rvm to rbenv to rbfu then finally landed on chruby :P
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* Cope uses chruby too; similar journey, minus rbfu
<havenwood> atmosx: rbenv should do like rbfu and self-deprecate in favor of chruby :P
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<atmosx> webgen: yes, it's 2 files
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<atmosx> havenwood: oh, you tried them all apparently. There's a new kid on the block IIRC, but can't recall the name
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<webgen> atmosx cool thanks!
<havenwood> atmosx: ruby-version also deprecated in favor of chruby. the only other one i can think of is ry. is there a new one yet?
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<havenwood> atmosx: if you can think of what it is, i'll list it on chruby's readme under Alternatives
<havenwood> didn't hit my radar
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<havenwood> shell >.>
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<atmosx> havenwood: chruby is yours?
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<havenwood> atmosx: i'm a committer but its postmodern's
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<atmosx> havenwood: Oh nice
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<atmosx> havenwood: ry is the one I had in mind
<havenwood> atmosx: he just did a changelog podcast on it actually ;) http://thechangelog.com/120/
<atmosx> Yeah I know the podcast, I'll listen to it thanks :-)
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<havenwood> atmosx: mpapis of RVM did an interesting changelog on RVM2 a while back too ;)
<Cope> i like chruby because it does a few things well.
<Cope> and simply
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<havenwood> atmosx: i just poked JEG2 trying to get a Ruby Rogues setup with postmodern and mpapis, and think i succeeded :D
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<Cope> sweet
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<atmosx> cool, changelog seems very similar the podcast I'd lke to do in Greek language, but if I wanna have any traction mine should be less technical... Mix topics with more mainstream things.
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<havenwood> atmosx: now i just need to learn Greek... and i have another podcast to listen to!
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<havenwood> atmosx: what's the podcast called?
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<atmosx> havenwood: it's nto ready yet :-) I've done two podcasts in the past with 2 friends.
<havenwood> atmosx: nice
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<atmosx> havenwood: I might do it on Sept, if I find the time... and at least 1 other guy to do some of the heavyload editing.
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<atmosx> havenwood: which podcasts you listen regularly? I listen 'tools of the trade' by Spienlis (IEEE Spectrum) and Ruby5.
<atmosx> Spinelis etc.
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<havenwood> atmosx: Ruby5, Ruby Rogues, the Changelog and FLOSS Weekly
<Cope> what's ruby5 ?
<havenwood> atmosx: hmm, tools of the trade, i'll have to check that out
<havenwood> Cope: http://ruby5.envylabs.com/
* Cope checks it out
<havenwood> Cope: frequent but short
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<Cope> aha! neat
<havenwood> atmosx: Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots is another
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<atmosx> havenwood: hahah yeah I've heard abotu the giant robots podcast too hehe
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<shevy> atmosx how's it going with your rails app?
<shevy> or is it still sinatra
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<olivier_bK> what is the difference between "to_yaml " and " y " in ruby
<olivier_bK> ?
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<apeiros> y is a method which calls to_yaml on its arguments and prints it
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<apeiros> while to_yaml is a method which returns a yaml string representation of the receiver
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<apeiros> also, docs. really. somebody took time to write them.
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<olivier_bK> thanks apeiros
<olivier_bK> :)
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<shevy> yeah
<shevy> usually a japanese with rudimentary english language skills
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<atmosx> Japan-ease
<atmosx> brb
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<melkor> Why would Array#index return the first element of an array and that is it?
<shevy> I guess it simply tries to find the index of the argument given
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<shevy> "Returns the index of the first object in ary such that the object is == to obj."
<shevy> and stops when it achieved that
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<melkor> What is the correct way to iterate over an arry with indices?
<hoelzro> melkor: each_with_index
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<melkor> Okay, or each index. I thought for some reason .index was returning the enumerator to go through the whole array.
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<the_f0ster> is there someway I can get the class name of my instance from the parent's constructor ?
<the_f0ster> assumign self.class will return parent class where my constructor is defined
<the_f0ster> i could do def initialize { super(self.class) } but trying to figure out if there is a better way to do it
<wallerdev> self.class will return the child class name
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<the_f0ster> oh okay great, ty wallerdev
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<shevy> how do you guys manage to memorize all those git commands
<crome> like, all the 5 you usually have to use?
<crome> I dont find it all that impossible
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<jhass> shevy: if you're a github user check https://github.com/github/hub
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<manacit> there aren't many
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<crome> most often you fetch, push, checkout, commit or merge
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<crome> its not rocket science
<jhass> and -p. I -p all the time
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* Hanmac1 wouldnt be suprised if there is a git-rocket-science command
<shevy> crome pfffft only 5
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<crome> seriously, learning 5 commands with 1 often used parameter covers most of your average git workflow
<shevy> crome I already now collected 12: log, commit, add, init, clone, push, checkout, branch, status, diff, version, pull
<crome> I wish people stopped whining about git and spend half an hour trying to understand it properly
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<shevy> yeah like reading about blobs
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<shevy> hmm I am missing merge :\
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<crome> and rebase
<apeiros> shevy: all I have to remember is 'gg','ga','gi','gm' and 'gp'. 10 letters.
<shevy> gagiiii!
<apeiros> occasionally there's a git init, git clone and git checkout
<shevy> that reads nicely
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<crome> shevy: if you know all those then you are pretty much set anyway
<crome> Hanmac: :D
<shevy> crome haha oh man... I think I used them before, I even have them in my knowledgebase, but it's not yet set in my brain :(
<apeiros> oh, gis (used to be gs, but conflicts with ghost script) and gl :)
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<shevy> I get the "gi" -> "git init", but what is "gis"?
<shevy> ah
<shevy> because it conflicted with gs
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<Hanmac> hm i need a shortcut for "git diff <recent pull diff>" ...
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<apeiros> gi is git add -p (i for interactive)
<apeiros> and gis is git status
<apeiros> bash aliases :)
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<shevy> stackoverflow is really useful
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<shevy> hmmm
<shevy> foo-bar vs. foo_bar
<jhass> no convention I'm aware of
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<shevy> for some reason I seem to have foo-bar but my gem names are foo_bar
<shevy> jhass ok
<apeiros> shevy: my github repo name == gem name
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<shevy> yeah, that would help my poor brain, no idea why I have '-' at github...
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<hrtcrw> hi all
<hrtcrw> stupid question
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<jhass> ok: are there green golf balls?
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<shevy> I only know of white ones
<shevy> but perhaps there are green ones with military camouflage
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<shevy> golf played by snipers
<Hanmac> maybe the green ones are only used on "the green" part of the golf course ?
<shevy> Hanmac invisible golf!
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<shevy> just like that e-guitar thing where you play without a guitar... or air-guitar or however it is called
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<jhass> bye hrtcrw
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<Hanmac> shevy ... hm i need a tech that uses motion captureing so you can play music while playing air-guitar ... (but for some reason i think it already exist ;P )
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<Hanmac> havenwood: so looked more from Doctor Who?
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<havenwood> s4e5
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<shevy> Cope perhaps they are just wrapped in some kind of green wrapper
<havenwood> Hanmac: got distracted by nlp
<shevy> like onions and their layers
<Hanmac> havenwood: wasnt s4e3 a little bit oood? ;P
<havenwood> Hanmac: that was pompei!
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<Hanmac> hm depends on your counting ... (the christmas specials does not have a number ... so s4e3 is planet of the Ood in this list: http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Series_4_%28Doctor_Who%29 )
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<havenwood> Hanmac: aha! i missed the special on netflix i guess
<havenwood> Hanmac: What programming language would the ooood prefer?
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<combusean> rescue
<combusean> puts "problem"
<combusean> end
<combusean> ^ production code we found just now. lol
<Hanmac> havenwood: hm good question ...
<Hanmac> havenwood: hm no you did not, the special was "voyage of the damned"
<Hanmac> havenwood: tell me when you watching s4e6 : "The Doctor's Daughter"
<havenwood> Hanmac: kk
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<franzip> can someone help me with a problem?
<jhass> no, nobody knows your problem. how should they?
<franzip> these are the specs: Define a method starts_with_consonant?(s) that takes a string and returns true if it starts with a consonant and false otherwise. (For our purposes, a consonant is any letter other than A, E, I, O, U.) NOTE: be sure it works for both upper and lower case and for nonletters!
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<Cope> sounds like homework to me
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<jhass> and that codes doesn't seem related
<franzip> oh sorry i've pasted the wrong one, this is the correct one: Define a method binary_multiple_of_4?(s) that takes a string and returns true if the string represents a binary number that is a multiple of 4. NOTE: be sure it returns false if the string is not a valid binary number!
<Cope> sounds like homework to me
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<franzip> grader returns: Failure/Error: binary_multiple_of_4?(string).should be_true, "Incorrect results for input: \"#{string}\""
<franzip> Incorrect results for input: "0"
<franzip> it's rspec
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<jhass> that code wouldn't run, it misses an end
<LadyRainicorn> 0 is even.
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<franzip> damn, forgot the end too, but it's in the right place in my code
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<LadyRainicorn> Anyway why are you testing that with a regexp?
<LadyRainicorn> Use %
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<franzip> the testing is made by an automatic grader, my output for "0" is false
<Cope> franzip: can you show the tests?
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<LadyRainicorn> franzip: Convert the string to an integer, and test it with %.
<jhass> franzip: what do you think /^[10]/ does?
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<jhass> ah, nvm
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<franzip> LadyRainicorn: i'll try that, i just wanted to use regexp for practice
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<shevy> :\
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<LadyRainicorn> Basically your code is failing because it doesn't account for numbers under 4
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<franzip> but it says "multiple of 4"
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<Cope> franzip: what are the characteristics of a binary number that's divisble by 4?
<franzip> ends with two 0
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<Cope> ok... so what's your plan to test for that?
<Boohbah> franzip: can you paste on a non-pastebin.com site?
<Cope> yeah that too
<LadyRainicorn> I'm assuming the actual program contains the missing end, right?
<LadyRainicorn> If so, their program probably considers 0 a multiple of 4.
<franzip> the testing is provided by the edX platform so i have no idea
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<franzip> yeah it's pretty specific, it fails on "output 0"
<Cope> franzip: sorry i mean what's your algorithm
* Boohbah would like to see the code but cannot because pastebin
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<Cope> how are you going to establish if your string ends in 00 ?
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<franzip> "/^[10]*100$/
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<Cope> and how does that work?
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<Cope> -- this is obviously homework, and I'm cool with that if IRC helps you understand what you're doing; I'm not ok with it if you want people on IRC to do your homework for you.
<Cope> so sorry if I seem patronising
<franzip> Boohbah: http://pastie.org/9143535
* Cope means well :)
* shevy does not
* Cope grins
<Boohbah> i don't really care if you learn or not
<shevy> you are the most evil of us all Boohbah :(
<Boohbah> my motivation for reading your code is purely selfish
<Boohbah> >:D
<franzip> Cope: I don't want that you make homework for me
<shevy> franzip, what does your regex mean?
<franzip> match 0 or more [10]
<franzip> and the ending 00
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<shevy> well
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<havenwood> >> '1001'.to_i(2).modulo(4).zero?
<eval-in_> havenwood => false (https://eval.in/146841)
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<franzip> hmm to_i(2) converts in base 2?
<franzip> i'm totally noob with ruby
<LadyRainicorn> franzip seems to think 0 shouldn't be considered a multiple of 4.
<LadyRainicorn> I have a suspicion his professor disagrees.
<Solnse> is it considered good or bad practice to reuse variables that are no longer needed later in code to save memory?
<LadyRainicorn> Bad.
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<Solnse> and your reasoning?
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<csmrfx> I like to do that sometimes
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<shevy> we make ruby scripts superfast that way
<csmrfx> lol
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<shevy> I keep on reusing _
<csmrfx> ree cylce
<LadyRainicorn> It's confusing, and honestly if you're worried about that fine grained level of memory usage, Ruby isn't the best choice.
<shevy> lol
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<csmrfx> yeah wel
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<shevy> Solnse likes perfection
<shevy> every character must be optimized
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<Solnse> I just so no reason to hold a complete html document i'm parsing in a variable after I'm done with it and could use the same page = variable on the next request....
<csmrfx> its one of those meh things, not on my optimization list
<Solnse> but i'd like to stick with conventions, if there is one in the ruby communicty
<shevy> I sometimes removed @ivars when they store too much data
<Boohbah> Solnse: if you are worried about saving memory then maybe ruby is the wrong choice :)
<shevy> and when I do pp object, it's overflowing my screen
<Solnse> Boohbah: i'm not worried about it.
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<shevy> excellent!
<LadyRainicorn> Yeah, ivars are different.
<Solnse> pp!
<LadyRainicorn> But like local variables no
<csmrfx> or
<LadyRainicorn> Assign to nil if you really must get rid of the memory.
<shevy> how about global variables
<csmrfx> could you actually use ruby to write programs that do not use much of ram?
<Boohbah> man, irb does not like my arrow keys anymore :(
<csmrfx> imo you could
* Boohbah gem install pry
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<shevy> Boohbah clean your keyboard man
<havenwood> >> @fleeting = 'life'; remove_instance_variable(:@fleeting) && GC.start
<eval-in_> havenwood => nil (https://eval.in/146846)
<Solnse> page = agent.get @signin_page then after inputting credentials, it seems a waste to store result_page = agent.post(blahblabh) in a new variable...
<shevy> the dead ants between the arrow keys interfere
<LadyRainicorn> Define much?
* Boohbah blames readline
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<franzip> it's passing the tests now...
<franzip> LadyRaincorn: thank you
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<franzip> and shame on my math
<franzip> :S
<LadyRainicorn> Oh, honestly for something like that it's fine.
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<Boohbah> is zero a multiple of 4?
<shevy> well 4 * 0
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<shevy> what is 0 ** 0
<LadyRainicorn> 1 I think?
<havenwood> shevy: 1
<LadyRainicorn> >> 0 ** 0
<eval-in_> LadyRainicorn => 1 (https://eval.in/146847)
<shevy> :(
<shevy> I learned in school that it is undefined :(
<havenwood> >> 0r * 0r
<eval-in_> havenwood => (0/1) (https://eval.in/146848)
<havenwood> >> 0.0 * 0.0
<eval-in_> havenwood => 0.0 (https://eval.in/146849)
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<csmrfx> 1~1~
<havenwood> floats >.>
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<shevy> hmm
<shevy> and how about
<shevy> 0.0 ** 0.0
<shevy> lol
<LadyRainicorn> That makes me cry.
<shevy> no that is funny
<shevy> >> 0.0 ** 0.0
<eval-in_> shevy => 1.0 (https://eval.in/146850)
<shevy> it's 1.0 !
<havenwood> shevy: that's what i meant to do
<LadyRainicorn> oh
<havenwood> shevy: oops
<LadyRainicorn> nevermind
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<shevy> >> 0 == 0.0
<eval-in_> shevy => true (https://eval.in/146851)
<shevy> huh
<csmrfx> >> ~1
<eval-in_> csmrfx => -2 (https://eval.in/146852)
<havenwood> shevy: 0r ** 0r #=> (1/1)
<shevy> >> 1 == 1.0
<eval-in_> shevy => true (https://eval.in/146853)
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<LadyRainicorn> >> 0r ** 0r
<eval-in_> LadyRainicorn => (1/1) (https://eval.in/146854)
<shevy> HUH
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<shevy> >> 1.class
<eval-in_> shevy => Fixnum (https://eval.in/146855)
<shevy> >> 1.0.class
<eval-in_> shevy => Float (https://eval.in/146856)
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<shevy> ?!
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<shevy> cool
<shevy> fixnums are like floats
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<LadyRainicorn> If 0.0**0.0 was 0.0 I would of had to make a /r/lolruby.
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<shevy> the redditers hate ruby
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<shevy> it's a python snake storm there
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<LadyRainicorn> haha I don't hear much about Ruby on Reddit.
<Boohbah> 0 is a multiple of everything
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<LadyRainicorn> I'm subscribed to /r/ruby, but it never makes it to my frontpage.
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<shevy> :(
<shevy> we need another hype
<shevy> something like rails
<shevy> but new
<shevy> and BIGGER
<LadyRainicorn> superrails
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<GeorgesLeYeti> HI
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<Hanmac> shevy lets make an "all" gem ... one gem that depends on all other gems ;P
<shevy> Hanmac hehe
<mordof> ..... Hanmac wha... lol
<mordof> why!?
* mordof just walked in
<shevy> I need something that pulls in all dependencies, then packages stuff up in a standalone gem
<mordof> shevy: ah
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<wmoxam> shevy: make a Rails rival
<havenwood> shevy: it could just have a `spec.runtime_dependency` in `all.gemspec` for each gem
<wmoxam> so we can go back to the good ol' days of Merb vs Rails flamewars
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<shevy> wmoxam hmm... I could probably make a rival for some components, but rails is kinda huge, I don't think I have the motivation to want to replace or challenge all of it :(
<atmosx> Merb... what's the flamewar about? lines o fcode
<atmosx> ?
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<wmoxam> atmosx: wat
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<atmosx> wmoxam: merb is inexistant compared t rails
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<Hanmac> shevy: one day ... rwx might be have as much lines as rails ;P
<shevy> Hanmac hehe
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<wmoxam> atmosx: ....
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<atmosx> wmoxam: if it's your project, sorry. Didn't wanna hurt your feeling or anything
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<wmoxam> atmosx: you're missing some context that is easily solved by scrolling back a a few lines of chat history
<wmoxam> :p
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<atmosx> wmoxam: hmm
<atmosx> wmoxam: is that a dos attack on the making? https://twitter.com/wmoxam/status/460597394308988928/photo/1
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<shevy> look at this beauty
<shevy> $checks .= is_writable(PLX_STORAGE) ? '<li class="green">'.§('Storage directory is writable.').'</li>' : '<li class="red">'.§('Storage directory '.PLX_STORAGE.' is not writable').'</li>';
<shevy> where is tim when I need him
<atmosx> shevy: that's awful
<wmoxam> atmosx: no, that what 70% packet loss looks like due to shitty ISPs
<atmosx> my eyes hurt
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<atmosx> wmoxam: omg
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<shevy> atmosx hehe
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<shevy> I think .= in php is += in ruby or?
<atmosx> really?
<shevy> I am not sure, I forgot so much in php
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<shevy> but I think yeah
<shevy> or?
<atmosx> so in php they do: .=1 instead of +=1???? doesn't make sense
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<shevy> hey
<shevy> in php they do all sort of crazy things
<shevy> did you see how they handle namespaces?
<shevy>
<shevy> namespace Foo\Bar;
<Sawbones> Anyone here having worked with Sinatra enjoy it with success?
<shevy> are you awe inspired now atmosx
<aedorn> shevy: it's more like append
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<shevy> Sawbones, dunno... sinatra seems a bit naked
<shevy> all it does for me really is to add handlers to foo/bar like queries
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<Sawbones> shevy: I'm building a small site that I don't need something bit like Django or Rails
<shevy> cgi!
<shevy> wow atmosx look at that:
<shevy> \Foo\Bar\foo(); // resolves to function Foo\Bar\foo
<shevy> $a = \strlen('hi'); // calls global function strlen
<shevy> wow
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<atmosx> shevy: so when combined php with javascript you get all sorts of insane shit going on
<atmosx> amazing
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<mordof> php . is concatenation only
<mordof> += 1 is still normal
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<Hanmac> "php normal" ;P
<mordof> well
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<mordof> i know, lol
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<mordof> just answering a question that was asked a short while ago when i stepped out
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<aedorn> yeah, because echo 1 . " apples"; is obviously straight forward! Obviously!
<mordof> haha
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<mordof> result could be: 16 for all we know xD
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<Hanmac> in ruby this is valid ruby too;P 1.("apples")
<toretore> puts 1 + " apples" is more straight forward how?
<mordof> toretore: it is, because that's an error
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<toretore> at least 1 . " apples" is unambigously concatenation
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<mordof> >> print 1.to_s + " apples"; print 1 + " apples";
<eval-in_> mordof => 1 applesString can't be coerced into Fixnum (TypeError) ... (https://eval.in/146862)
<mordof> toretore: makes more sense this way
<toretore> why?
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<mordof> toretore: because you have to tell it to be a string first
<aedorn> implicit vs explicit
<mordof> then it's clear
<toretore> `1 . " apples"` is clear
<toretore> it can't mean anything other than "concatenate 1 and " apples" as a string"
<mordof> well
<toretore> because . is only used for string concatenation
<mordof> that depends on which item PHP decides to coerce, lol
<aedorn> Only if you aren't new to it, though. But I suppose the same could be said for everything.
<toretore> no, there is no ambiguity
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<toretore> it will cast the number
<toretore> because . is *string* concatenation
<toretore> it's not the same as +
<mordof> no i know
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<mordof> i'm just going based off of some other *very* strange coercion that PHP does in different scenarios. i know this particular one is relatively straightforward
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<snkcld> are there any gems out there that allow one to inspect database tables etc? eg iterate over a tables fks, pks, and just get information regarding a schema and data?
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<atmosx> snkcld: sequel and irb/pry
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<atmosx> snkcld: install sequel, then the driver (e.g. mysql) and then require 'sequel' and 'mysql' on an 'irb' session.
<atmosx> or write small scripts which query the db.. whatever works for you
<snkcld> atmosx: awesome!
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<atmosx> you can build a custom DSL if you want
<snkcld> yea, im writing custom sql to find foreign keys atm
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<atmosx> snkcld: you are using activerecord
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<shevy> guys
<shevy> I need to combine ruby with one of these languages:
<shevy> java/c/c++
<shevy> which one to pick?
<Hanmac> c or c++
<benzrf> c
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<benzrf> maybe java
<benzrf> wait yeah java
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<shevy> Hanmac only one is possible, so an "or" is not helpful hehehe
<shevy> with java I could use jruby
<benzrf> c & c++ have low-level semantics that dont always play well with hi level stuff
<atmosx> why do you need to do that?
<benzrf> java is already gc'd and oo
<atmosx> gc'd?
<benzrf> 2 big points
<benzrf> garbage collected
<shevy> atmosx well competitive advantage, like 30% of the job listings in bioinformatics want java
<shevy> the only drawback is that I can't stand java
<baweaver> Scala or Clojure then
<atmosx> shevy: language is not important
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<atmosx> atmosx: You'll pick up java really quickly
<baweaver> All the hip new companies are using them, and they're a heck of a lot better.
<atmosx> if you have to
<atmosx> it's OO the concepts are the same
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<baweaver> java is painful
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<shevy> well
<shevy> java kinda seems boring :(
<baweaver> too much boilerplate
<baweaver> Scala and Clojure both run on the JVM
<baweaver> both are functional
<atmosx> shevy: it's just a tool like ruby :-P
<baweaver> Scala is more of the syntax you'd be useful
<baweaver> Clojure is a Lisp
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<baweaver> Yes, it's a tool, but lord help you if you try and use hedge clippers to cut down a redwood
<baweaver> there's such a thing as a wrong tool
<shevy> atmosx I don't believe in "just a tool"
<shevy> or "use the right tool for the job"
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<toretore> but you don't know what the job is yet..
<baweaver> as opposed to....
<shevy> toretore no restrictions
<atmosx> shevy: that's what a programmer is all about though, you shouldn't be stuck to one language
<toretore> could be a hedge
<RubyPanther> shevy: I agree, but mostly because of the word "the"
<atmosx> s/stuck/glued
<shevy> atmosx I am not a "programmer" though
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<atmosx> shevy: maybe you should become one then :-P
<shevy> nope, I actually hate computers
<atmosx> oh
<atmosx> I seee
<toretore> lots of "advice" about an unknowm problem
<RubyPanther> There are lots of "right" tools
<shevy> php
<atmosx> toretore: easiest way to look smart lol
<shevy> shell scripts
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<baweaver> If a large portion of jobs are wanting java / jvm, then it makes sense to learn that area
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<baweaver> and the up and coming tasks in biomed are big data driven
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<RubyPanther> PHP is a great tool. How do I know? People use it to build stuff. Some of it is even good stuff.
<toretore> atmosx: quite the opposite in my view
<baweaver> which are inherently functional problems
<baweaver> which is why I mention those.
<RubyPanther> There is no such thing as an "inherently functional problem" outside of academics.
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<atmosx> toretore: anyway the issue in question is that ruby needs to use a new language because it suits the area of his future job (if he doesn't become a pharmacist in the meantime)
<RubyPanther> functions are an entirely arbitrary human construct
<shevy> I guess I'll hang out on #jruby to see if they appear clever or not
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<atmosx> shevy: I'd just get a book and learn java
<RubyPanther> if you think you see "functions" in the Problem Domain, you've probably got some reflection issues
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<atmosx> shevy: ton's of libraries for JV and pays well
<shevy> atmosx ewww buuut...
<shevy> it's so verbose! :(
<toretore> RubyPanther: yeah, you should obviously be seeing objects
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<toretore> /he/
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<atmosx> shevy: + learning a new language might help you become a better rubyist too
<RubyPanther> toretore: Sure, I get reflection too, and mine shows me objects. ;)
<benzrf> learn haskell!
<benzrf> haskell is great
<baweaver> +1 haskell
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<toretore> but the curly haired man says objects are evil!
<baweaver> scala if you're going for immediately practical
<RubyPanther> The Problem Domain should rightly only consist of inputs, outputs, and transformations. These same things can be expressed as behaviors.
<baweaver> more jobs out there, much of the same concepts apply. Haskell is just far more rigid about being functional.
<atmosx> hm
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<atmosx> I need to restart tor shit.
<shevy> I haven't seen a job listing even mentioning haskell yet
<atmosx> shevy: about bio-informatics?
<shevy> yeah
<atmosx> shevy: all I see is python
<RubyPanther> Functions, objects, methods, structured programming generally, it is entirely arbitrary constructs that reflect the intersection of the needs of the machine and the programmer; not the problem domain.
<shevy> yeah :(
<atmosx> shevy: then stick with python
<shevy> atmosx though it is more generic here usually "a scripting language like python/perl" and when they mention that, ruby covers that
<shevy> what for would I need python
<shevy> I have ruby :P
<atmosx> shevy: yeah, true
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<shevy> another requirement often mentioned is R
<RubyPanther> shevy: Like Larry Wall said when they asked him what languages you should know about; you should know about Haskell because it is for geniuses, and that is important to know in case you want to hire people to use it
<baweaver> statistics
<shevy> yeah baweaver :(
<baweaver> R was kinda annoying when I learned it.
<RubyPanther> Presumably if you have to hire those sorts of people you just go straight to a recruiter and don't bother listing it
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<RubyPanther> R sucks, too bad it is such a great tool
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<shevy> baweaver well I'll bullet, I am learning R since like two months... at least it can generate pretty graphics
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<baweaver> I was using it for aggregate statistics on data from ~1000 wireless subscriber units
<baweaver> so I had immediate practical use in learning int
<baweaver> it
<benzrf> RubyPanther: i mostly grok haskell and im not even a college student
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<benzrf> i guess i must be a super double genius!!!!
<benzrf> (or maybe it is not that bad??)
<RubyPanther> benzrf: or a kid
<baweaver> still annoying though, not very interfaceable.
<baweaver> benzrf: first language or what did you start with?
<RubyPanther> like any language, including natural languages, kids can learn them easy. Even dumb kids.
<shevy> benzrf is dumb?
<benzrf> baweaver: first lang = true basic
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<baweaver> or rather what's your proficiency with math
<benzrf> p decent
<benzrf> but most of the math higher than simple algebra i know is from random wikipediaing
<benzrf> so p incomplete
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<baweaver> most people that start with an algol-like language have a harder time adapting as they keep trying to put haskell in java terms
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<baweaver> which will screw your head all types of bad.
<benzrf> precisely
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<baweaver> if you try and analog it, you'll fail
<benzrf> :^)
<RubyPanther> I didn't mean he's dumb, I meant young people learning languages doesn't tell you anything about if the language is easy, or if it takes a "genius" to do something useful with it
<benzrf> *analogue?
<benzrf> RubyPanther: pfft nice try dude
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<baweaver> Monday actually
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<RubyPanther> I'd certainly trust Larry Wall, a talented linguist, to be able to measure and compare complexity more accurately.
<RubyPanther> For example people say Perl is hard, and he points out Japanese is much more complicated than Perl.
<shevy> actually
<shevy> japanese often makes more sense than perl
<baweaver> much of anything makes more sense than perl
<shevy> larry wall is a child of the 1980s
<RubyPanther> I don't want to learn Japanese to speak to my computer. I want to keep it more on the level of, "ugga ugga, input output"
<shevy> you don't write "ugga ugga, input output" in perl
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<RubyPanther> No, Larry Wall was already a secret government linguist in the 80s.
<shevy> it's more like &/§"/&)"&/! N&/!)? !&
<baweaver> (that being said Perl was one of my first few languages)
<RubyPanther> shevy: That's why I switched to Ruby!
<shevy> baweaver did you ditch it :(
<RubyPanther> my Perl was too expressive.
<baweaver> Ruby won
<shevy> hehe
<shevy> ruby vs. perl
<RubyPanther> Ruby is so simple, my future me and past me can both understand it.
<shevy> is like a pretty girl vs. an old man
<baweaver> I can still use Perl fine, almost to level with Ruby, but I vastly prefer Ruby
<yxhuvud> RubyPanther: parsing perl is np hard though, so claiming japanese is harder seems like a silly claim.
<shevy> just not fair
<shevy> RubyPanther pfft future you, what if you will have alzheimer
<RubyPanther> yxhuvud: Interesting that you broke out the parsing, which should be the least difficult part of a language
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<RubyPanther> shevy: Then I probably won't even know I wrote code, or be re-reading it
<shevy> well you could do it like in the movie memento
<shevy> for programmers
<shevy> make tattoos of code onto your body
<RubyPanther> Anyways, I am an active chess player, that is known to be protective against Alzheimer's.
<shevy> then when you wake up, you can remember the code!
<RubyPanther> I'd be more worried about developing dementia and reverting to COBOL in the middle of a method...
<benzrf> haskell is great, youre just dumb
<benzrf> -smug-
<mordof> oh dear.. lol
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<RubyPanther> benzrf: In another 10 years you'll understand that being a language for geniuses is not a compliment, it is a major insult.
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<RubyPanther> Maybe sooner than that. My CS-1 class I had a professor who spent the whole first day ranting about "genius-level programming" and how it was the worst code you could possibly write, much worse than broken buggy code.
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<toretore> that depends on the definition of "genius"
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<toretore> the way you use it sounds like it's sarcastic and not actually genius
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<RubyPanther> toretore: by the time you twist it around to be positive, it won't match a dictionary
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<benzrf> RubyPanther: i never said it was a compliment
<benzrf> o=
<toretore> the way ruby metaprogramming is "genius"
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<RubyPanther> No. It is deeper than that. Your genius code probably even works. What happens when somebody else tries to add a feature? They have to THROW IT ALL AWAY
<benzrf> anyway haskell is cool & not genius so there
<SegFaultAX> The problem with Haskell isn't that it's a "genius" language, it's that it requires re-learning how to think about programming.
<benzrf> RubyPanther: yes i understand your point
<benzrf> /ROLLS EYES
<RubyPanther> That is why it is worse than bad code
<apeiros> if it wasn't RubyPanther, I'd actually bite.
<SegFaultAX> So especially if you've been in industry for a while, that becomes increasingly difficult to do.
<benzrf> hey SegFaultAX i feel like ive seen you in another channel
<RubyPanther> apeiros: if it wasn't true, so would I
<toretore> RubyPanther: why would they have to throw it all away?
<benzrf> man RubyPanther is so full of shit
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<SegFaultAX> benzrf: Probably, I'm in lots of channels. ;)
<benzrf> so full of shit man
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<RubyPanther> toretore: Because 100% of programmers are not geniuses!
<benzrf> SegFaultAX: do u hang out (or used to) in #python
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<SegFaultAX> benzrf: For the last 10 years, yes. :D
<benzrf> o-o
<toretore> RubyPanther: i assume some level of expertise, and more importantly, a willingness to learn
<benzrf> used to frequent there back when i used python regularly
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<toretore> depending on the level of "geniusness" i think that's appropriate
<RubyPanther> And if you systemically will accept genius-level-programming, then even if you only hire geniuses, some are genius in different ways, and they still can't use each other's code
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<SegFaultAX> The term "genius" is not meaningful in this context. The issue is you're arguing with flawed or ill-defined terminology.
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<toretore> yes
<RubyPanther> Note that geniuses are not bad. But genius code is bad. A genius human should be writing simple code; they should see the problem domain well enough not to even want genius code. Except when they're young and trying to prove themselves, then it is just human nature to write that crap.
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<toretore> RubyPanther: again, it depends on what you mean by genius
<apeiros> "genius. noun. people who write code others don't understand."
<apeiros> apparently
<RubyPanther> toretore: Right, but the normal process in that case is to converge on the meaning that makes sense, the meaning in which the statement is true. ;)
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<toretore> the geniusest is the programmer who is able to express a complex program in such simple terms that it's easily understandable by most people
<SegFaultAX> apeiros: Doesn't require a genius to do that. ;)
<benzrf> RubyPanther: yes, & haskell enables you write clean, expressive code
<apeiros> SegFaultAX: orly? :)
<benzrf> ^_^
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<RubyPanther> If you run straight to the meaning where it isn't true, you're probably misunderstanding a person rather than even attempting to refute them
<toretore> i don't assume anything about your definition of the term
<Solnse> how do I use regex to search a nokogiri document? I keep getting undefined method `match' for #<Nokogiri::HTML::Document:
<RubyPanther> benzrf: According to you. According to Larry Wall, you'll have to hire more expensive programmers to do the same thing as in another language.
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<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: I can't argue something that hasn't been well-defined. And you keep moving the goal post.
<toretore> Solnse: you don't?
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<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: I propose it is already well defined by dictionaries, and that I am using words withing the bounds of their English meanings.
<Solnse> toretore: there must be a way, i've done it before.
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<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: "genius (noun) - exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability"
<toretore> Solnse: perhaps you could enlighten us on exactly what problem you're trying to solve?
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<shevy> so a creative person is a genius
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<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: There are so many ways that could apply to programming it's almost meaningless without further clarification.
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<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: Right. So genius-level-code is code that requires "exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability"
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<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: That's one way to interpret it.
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<Solnse> I'm searching through an html document for a specific value I need, however it doesn't have any uniquely identifying id or class, so I need to use regex to include nearby text in the match.
<RubyPanther> So see it turns out there was no barrier to understanding; the most straightforward meanings lead directly and precisely to the intended point.
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<benzrf> SegFaultAX: ive had this argument with him before
<benzrf> he's completely nuts
<toretore> Solnse: is the value text or an element?
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<Solnse> yes, text
<benzrf> he claims FP is unintuitive and inherently less useful than OOP
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<RubyPanther> Nonsense
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: There are other interpretations of genius level code. It's my opinion that there are other useful interpretations.
<toretore> Solnse: you could just convert it to a string
<toretore> probably not super efficient
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<SegFaultAX> Such as: "genius-level code" is code that has been simplified to such an extent that all reasonable accidental complexity has been eliminated.
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<RubyPanther> I only claimed that FP is disgusting and awful. I did not claim that is less useful. That is an abstract claim that could only be rightly made in a specific case.
<SegFaultAX> If you've been writing code for a while, you might know that such a feat is indeed enormously challenging.
<toretore> SegFaultAX, RubyPanther: i think genius level code is quite subjective, and to me it does not mean incomprehensible to a non-genius
<toretore> "disgusting and awful" are very precise terms
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Interesting, why do you feel that way?
<SegFaultAX> (About FP in particular, that is)
<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: No, that is code written by a genius; it doesn't require genius, and so it clearly not "genius-level code." If any idiot programmer can understand it, nobody is going to confuse it with "genius-level-code" unless they are being intentionally obtuse.
<toretore> RubyPanther: that is your own definition of the term
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<Sawbones> Do you guys have an idea why I get this error: `cannot load such file -- dm-mysql-adapter (LoadError)`
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Our communication fault is due to mismatched definitions, unfortunately.
<Solnse> toretore: here is snips of what I'm doing... https://gist.github.com/Solnse/de44b2821a892b788ab6 not really sure why .match won't work on it.
<RubyPanther> toretore: I agree it is subjective, but not that it can mean anything. It still means generally what I claimed it to mean; and obviously so.
<Sawbones> it's when I call `require data_mapper` and I create a mysql setup
<toretore> RubyPanther: i disagree
<benzrf> Sawbones: do you have the gem installed
<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: Like I said, I'm using dictionary definitions.
<Solnse> I'm trying to grab that 400
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Why do you find FP disgusting, out of curiosity.
<benzrf> SegFaultAX: because he is a nutbar
<benzrf> no reasoning with him
<benzrf> absolutely bonkers
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<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Your definition does not follow from the definition I gave you above.
<SegFaultAX> benzrf: That's not helpful.
<RubyPanther> If there is a mismatch in definitions even AFTER I explain which definition I am using, that is getting into "intentionally refusing to understand" territory.
<SegFaultAX> No reason to resort to ad hominem.
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<toretore> Solnse: i think using xpath would result in a more robust solution to the problem
<benzrf> SegFaultAX: sounds like SOMEBODY misunderstands 'ad hominem'
<benzrf> :-)
<Solnse> ok, I'll try that....
<Sawbones> benzrf: woo thanks! that worked
<Solnse> toretore: thanks
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<toretore> no, YOU'RE an ad hominem
<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: Don't worry, it is just a schtick he does; "don't listen to the old guy, he doesn't know anything!" It is his duty as a kid to oppose old people.
<combusean> hey benzrf, havenwood =)
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<SegFaultAX> benzrf: And I quote "he is a nutbar"
<shevy> well you could focus on a nutbar or on the arguments, I am sure he must have given arguments as to why FP is idiotic
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<SegFaultAX> benzrf: That is precisely the example given for ad hominem.
<SegFaultAX> benzrf: s/nutbar/asshole/
<havenwood> combusean: hi
<RubyPanther> I'm not even convinced "nutbar" is an insult.
<benzrf> uh what
<benzrf> where is the example
<shevy> s/asshole/rapist-murderer/
<combusean> shevy, :)
<toretore> baby serial killer
<SegFaultAX> benzrf: Cmd+F "asshole"
<shevy> RubyPanther you stupid nutbar!
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<shevy> toretore omg that is even worse
<benzrf> SegFaultAX: that's not an ad hominem example
<benzrf> u actually reading the article?
<shevy> come on guys
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<shevy> let's argue about FP
<havenwood> anyone TL;DR this conversation for me? :P
<toretore> shevy: but is it a baby who is a serial killer or a serial killer who kills babies? and which is worse?
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<RubyPanther> The nutbar was simple, stupid, and tasty. If I find one that is smart, I'm gonna throw it right out the window.
<benzrf> insulting somebody is not ad hominem
<shevy> havenwood they have an argument; RubyPanther said that FP kills babies, benzrf thinks that the whole world should be built on haskell
<toretore> tl;dr: people have differing opinions
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<benzrf> saying somebody is wrong for reasons having to do with them that are irrelevant
<benzrf> IS ad hominem
<shevy> I think benzrf is not really wanting to argue :(
<benzrf> i never said RubyPanther is wrong because he is a nutbar
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<toretore> fp is unnatural
<benzrf> i said it is not worth arguing with him because he is
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<benzrf> :^)
<havenwood> it isn't unnatural!
<toretore> it's just not the was computers work
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<benzrf> toretore: neither is objects
<toretore> it shouls be outlawed
<shevy> ok benzrf gave up early
<RubyPanther> It was an ad hominem, because he said "no reasoning with him," attacking generally anything I say based on who I am. The part about the nutbar was not one, though.
<shevy> RubyPanther won, I now agree with him FP is <RubyPanther> I only claimed that FP is disgusting and awful.
<shevy> DISGUSTING and AWFUL!
<shevy> hear me benzrf
<shevy> I am unsure about the arguments but hey
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<crucify_me> hi I see how line 10 returns matz's singleton object, so if you access the singleton object in the snippet below on line 1, why is metaclass just a string when "abc" is returned? sorry to havenwood I still don't quite get this: http://pastie.org/9143818
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Still waiting to hear your arguments for/against fp.
<RubyPanther> Please note that I only mean "awful" in the subjective sense as being unpleasant, not in an objective sense as being broken.
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<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: I'll tell you 99% of it; Ruby is wonderful, I choose Ruby. Ruby is not FP. This is #ruby. Therefore, FP is the wrong tool, and tastes like [bleep].
<havenwood> crucify_me: metaclass.instance_methods.grep(/speak/) #=> [:speak]
<RubyPanther> FP is great if you are a math academic who wants to write some codez, though.
<havenwood> crucify_me: or you're asking about the lines 1-6 snippet? I'm confused.
<crucify_me> sorry yeah lines 1 - 6. where you open up the singleton object for matz and metaclass is the assignment to a string havenwood
<apeiros> crucify_me: class … end returns the last expression
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<apeiros> crucify_me: your short script does *not* return the metaclass
<apeiros> it returns an arbitrary string
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Well that's the rather uninteresting part.
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<crucify_me> apeiros: but metaclass.class #=> String, no?
<apeiros> metaclass = class << matz; self; end # works *because* of the self. you can't just replace it with something else.
<apeiros> crucify_me: yes, because you had an expression which returns a string.
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<benzrf> why not just use Object#singleton_class
<apeiros> just because you call your variable "metaclass" you don't actually have a metaclass
<benzrf> >> BasicObject.instance_methods
<eval-in_> benzrf => [:==, :equal?, :!, :!=, :instance_eval, :instance_exec, :__send__, :__id__] (https://eval.in/146866)
<benzrf> hm
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<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: I once wrote this awful Perl code to generate some FP for me, to avoid writing the (much simpler) scheme code directly. I also took the time to insult by calling it lisp in my code. https://gist.github.com/rubypanther/56688a2a70a882bafd16
<benzrf> >> Object.new < 3
<eval-in_> benzrf => undefined method `<' for #<Object:0x414fa54c> (NoMethodError) ... (https://eval.in/146867)
<benzrf> kk
<benzrf> RubyPanther: how petty of you
<RubyPanther> I would rather write bad Perl than good FP. And I'm an emacs user!
<havenwood> crucify_me: the `class` keyword is returning the `"abc"` in from its definition block
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<benzrf> that doesnt mean fp is bad
<benzrf> it means you suck
<RubyPanther> The one good use of FP: configuring emacs from ~/.emacs
<benzrf> :^)
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<crucify_me> so the return value overrides the assignment of matz's singleton object to metaclass... but that is only momentary? havenwood apeiros
<apeiros> crucify_me: …
<toretore> RubyPanther: do you have any arguments other than "i don't like it"? i'm curious
<apeiros> crucify_me: no
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<apeiros> crucify_me: you could just as well write: metaclass = "foo" # no, you don't assign a metaclass
<RubyPanther> toretore: Not really, no. Like I said, I didn't claim it is not a useful tool; I only claimed it is an unpleasant tool. I do think objectively that so few people like the tool that that makes it a poor business choice to select the tool, outside of personal projects.
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: I am now entirely convinced that we have very different notions of functional programming.
<havenwood> crucify_me: you continue to expect that a class keyword definition block will return self instead of the return value from its definition block, when that just isn't how it works
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Thank you for your perspective.
<apeiros> >> obj = Object.new; class <<self; 123; end
<eval-in_> apeiros => 123 (https://eval.in/146868)
<apeiros> crucify_me: ^
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<apeiros> it does NOT MATTER that you wrap class << self; …; end around your expression. it will return the expressions value.
<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: I try not to go deeper in than 5 or 10 parens, so I'll never really have an authentic notion of FP
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<toretore> RubyPanther: well. "poor business choice" doesn't really count for me
<apeiros> crucify_me: the point is that *self* is the metaclass, *within* that class << self; …; end expression
<havenwood> crucify_me: metaclass = puts 'not a metaclass, just what puts returns'; metaclass #=> nil
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: What do that have to do with FP?
<apeiros> crucify_me: hence you want the value of self to be returned
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Or have you moved on to full-on trolling?
<apeiros> crucify_me: and you do that by simply having it be the last statement
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<toretore> RubyPanther: i'm more interested in fp's "purity" and the abstractions it provides over other paradigms
<RubyPanther> SegFaultAX: No, trolling is saying something to get a response. What I did was take a pot-shot to make myself laugh.
<SegFaultAX> RubyPanther: Understood. Thank you.
<havenwood> crucify_me: metaclass = class AnEmptyBlockIsNil; end; metaclass #=> nil
<toretore> RubyPanther: and i know lots of people who do think it's pleasant and a good business choice
<RubyPanther> toretore: I'm not convinced that pure FP can do anything useful, unless you winnow down "pure" a fair bit. My understanding is that there is a good amount of debate in FP over what the basic principles are, and if they have to be violated for pragmatic reasons, or if they are less strict than the violators claim
<RubyPanther> toretore: I certainly didn't mean to imply it has no good business case
<toretore> RubyPanther: what kinds of violations are you referring to?
<toretore> side effects?
<RubyPanther> Just that as a general purpose language, it is a poor business choice.
<havenwood> crucify_me: TL;DR: Do not assign a variable to the output of a `class` keyword definition block. You can get around the `class` behavior by not using it like apeiros showed.
<RubyPanther> yeah, side effects and state
<crucify_me> so the operator class << matz is setting singleton object to metaclass, but this just returns 'abc' since it is the last expression. But we are not manipulating the singleton object by accessing it with << havenwood apeiros
<apeiros> crucify_me: "so the operator class << matz is setting singleton object to metaclass" <-- eh? no
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<apeiros> `class << matz` opens a class body, just like `class Foo` does
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<apeiros> it doesn't set anything
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<havenwood> crucify_me: metaclass lis a smalltalk term, just use singleton class or eigenclass if you must
<apeiros> crucify_me: and class bodies return the last evaluated statement:
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<apeiros> >> class Foo; "hello there! I'm the last expression!"; end
<eval-in_> apeiros => "hello there! I'm the last expression!" (https://eval.in/146869)
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<RubyPanther> Yeah, Metaclass lost the Great Naming War
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<apeiros> >> Foo = "whatever"; class << Foo; "hello there! I'm the last expression!"; end
<eval-in_> apeiros => "hello there! I'm the last expression!" (https://eval.in/146870)
<crucify_me> though metaclass is not a keyword apeiros havenwood
<apeiros> same thing
<RubyPanther> I was on Team Metaclass, but we lost.
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<apeiros> crucify_me: and who said it was?
<toretore> RubyPanther: obviously, a system without side effects isn't of much use. but i think that sticking to those principles where it is possible can have benefits
<RubyPanther> toretore: that sounds more pragmatic than pure
<toretore> sure
<havenwood> RubyPanther: in dabbling i've found functional langs like clojure and haskell to be remarkably elegant and expressive
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<toretore> like "pure" oop
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<crucify_me> no one at first I assumed it was then I assumed it was a variable
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<RubyPanther> as long as you're willing to ignore the parts that suck, using FP won't hurt. ;)
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<apeiros> crucify_me: and no, it's not about the '<<' in 'class << some_obj'. it belongs together with class. 'class <<' is a thing. '<<' on its own is not (well, it is, but that's got nothing to do with metaclasses)
<toretore> i'm not sure i understand which parts suck
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<apeiros> crucify_me: the metaclass is a class
<apeiros> crucify_me: and just like non-metaclass classes, if you want to add instance methods to it, you need to open it
<havenwood> crazedpsyc: `class` followed by whatever will still return the return value of its definition block, so don't assign to it!
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<apeiros> crucify_me: and so just like there's syntax to open a class and add instance methods to it, namely: `class Foo; def i_am_an_instance_method; …; end; end`
<RubyPanther> havenwood: When you say "expressive" I think Perl, and then I think, egads, no, I do not want to look at expressive code my past-self found aesthetically pleasing. I'd rather look at finger paintings from my childhood.
<havenwood> crazedpsyc: sry, misstell. crucify_me: ^ **
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<apeiros> crucify_me: there's also syntax to open the metaclass, namely: `class << Foo; def i_am_an_instance_method_too!; end; end`
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<havenwood> RubyPanther: expressive as in expressing something clearly and openly
<RubyPanther> Give me an expressive enough language, I won't even know if I wrote a year later without checking the filename
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<toretore> havenwood, RubyPanther: with time, i value "expressiveness" less and less
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<apeiros> crucify_me: and just like *classes* are objects (x = Array; x.new # => []), metaclasses (being classes) are objects too
<apeiros> crucify_me: and because obj.singleton_class was only added in ruby 1.9, people needed a way to get at that metaclass object
<toretore> what matters is what's on the inside
<RubyPanther> I enjoy actually writing expressive code. It is the most fun way to write code. But I do not enjoy finding said code in my repo later.
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<apeiros> crucify_me: and because `self` within a class body is the class itself, and because class bodies return their last evaluated expression, people did just that: open the metaclass, and return self (which at that point *is* the metaclass)
<toretore> i find that "expressiveness" often comes at a cost of quality
<apeiros> so: obj.singleton_class --> def singleton_class; class << self; self; end; end
<havenwood> RubyPanther: I think that the promises of OO being the One True Way are overblown, and FP is an entirely workable paradigm.
<apeiros> hth
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<toretore> example: fuken "dsl"s
<apeiros> that's about as exhaustive an explanation as I can give
<crucify_me> apeiros: holy smokes
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<toretore> havenwood: but then you have those who think fp is the one true way and wouldn't touch a mutable data structure with a 10 foot pole
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<apeiros> oh, one thing I omitted, proof of "self within class is the class":
<crucify_me> apeiros: thank you I will pour over this .. thanks havenwood
<apeiros> >> class Array; self; end
<eval-in_> apeiros => Array (https://eval.in/146871)
<RubyPanther> havenwood: I don't want to do everything using OOP because it is the One True Way, only because I'm not disciplined, and my tendency is towards complex expression and not towards simplification.
<havenwood> toretore: Can't we just have two nice ways? :O
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<toretore> no. there can only be one winner!
* havenwood queues the Highlander music.
<apeiros> toretore: but you know that hodor always wins?
<toretore> ssh, i'm just about to watch the latest episode
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<RubyPanther> People who are "mathematically-minded" probably can get similar benefits from FP that I get from OOP
<apeiros> oh, sorry, I thought you already knew he was the secret dragon lord
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<toretore> oh no you completely ruined it apeiros :(
<apeiros> toretore: where did you think those dragon eggs came from?!?
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<toretore> from hodor?
<toretore> he laid them?
<apeiros> somebody must lay an egg for an egg to be there!
<apeiros> of course!
<toretore> it all makes sense now
<apeiros> he's a monotreme
<toretore> goddamn hodor
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<apeiros> I'd only say "hodor" too after such an experience…
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<apeiros> </temporary insanity>
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<toretore> 5.times{ Thread.new{ beer = Beer.new; until beer.empty?; toretore.synchronize{ toretore << beer }; end } }
<popl> apeiros: that tag never closes, bub
<popl> ;)
<apeiros> popl: no, no, you're confusing this with <greater insanity>
<popl> hahaa
<apeiros> should use - instead of space, though. just to have actually valid xml
<popl> nerd
<toretore> it's probably valid html5
<toretore> *zing*
<apeiros> toretore: wouldn't matter
<apeiros> toretore: browsers it all the crap you throw at them anyway
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<apeiros> *eat
<toretore> that was just a way of saying html5 sucks
<apeiros> I still weep for xhtml
<toretore> xhtml 2.0 rip
<benzrf> html5 > xhtml
<benzrf> xml is dum
<popl> what a cogent argument, benzrf
<popl> ;P
<toretore> xml for dummies
<toretore> that's what it is
<popl> toretore: life is for dummies
<toretore> goddamn web design hipsters ruined everything
<banister> popi: remember http://imgur.com/a/r2hG3
<popl> toretore: everything else is subset
<apeiros> html is for people who can't be arsed to write valid markup
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<toretore> closing tags is SO MUCH WOOOORK
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<RubyPanther> yay! new computer! byeeeeee
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<apeiros> toretore: also user input!!! what do we do about invalid user input!!! oh noes! we can't have fora in xhtml because there will be invalid userinput!!!!
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<apeiros> I almost shat bricks when I read that argument
<toretore> goddamnit now you made me think of all the stupid people in the world
<toretore> time for a beer
<apeiros> oh, good idea
<apeiros> s/beer/grappa/
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<toretore> auf wiedersehen meine herren
<popl> grappa?!
<apeiros> popl: yeah, I don't use an IV, though
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<popl> apeiros: Do you do like the Mayans did? http://research.mayavase.com/uploads/mayavase/hires/1550.jpg
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<metamaterial> i did rvm implode, then brew install rbenv ruby-build rbenv-gem-rehash & rbenv install 2.1.1 & i get make: *** [build-ext] Error 2. help?
<shevy> popl man there is too much sex in that scene
<popl> shevy: There's no sex at all in that scene.
<shevy> wat
<shevy> look at it!
<popl> shevy: That's a depiction of Mayan ritual enema.
<shevy> a sexy ritual
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<apeiros> popl: aaahaha, that reminds me of a silly story of a man whose doctor prohibited him to drink alcohol.
<benzrf> did u kno
<benzrf> ballmer peak is at 0.1334
<benzrf> * 0.1337
<shevy> the only creepy things are those flying snakes
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<apeiros> popl: of course he died because he thought the important part about it was "drink" :)
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<popl> apeiros: I think I heard the joke before. :)
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<ericwood> >> def ❨╯°□°❩╯︵┻━┻; puts "neat"; end; ❨╯°□°❩╯︵┻━┻
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<eval-in_> ericwood => neat ... (https://eval.in/146875)
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<Bilge> Why can't I write: class Foo; @my_var = :myval; end? @my_var seems to just disappear
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<apeiros> Bilge: it doesn't disappear. but it belongs to the class object, not to any of its instances.
<apeiros> >> class Foo; @bar = "blupp"; end; Foo.instance_variables
<eval-in_> apeiros => [:@bar] (https://eval.in/146876)
<apeiros> >> class Foo; @bar = "blupp"; end; Foo.instance_variable_get(:@bar)
<eval-in_> apeiros => "blupp" (https://eval.in/146877)
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<Bilge> How should I do what it is that I want?
<Bilge> Am I forced to declare all defaults in initialize()?
<apeiros> yes
<apeiros> that's its purpose
<Bilge> Also, if it belongs to the class and not any of its instances, why does it appear in instance_variables
<apeiros> that's why it has that name, "initialize". because you initialize the object.
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<apeiros> Bilge: why should it not? I asked the class. not any of its instances.
<apeiros> >> class Foo; @bar = "blupp"; end; Foo.new.instance_variables
<eval-in_> apeiros => [] (https://eval.in/146881)
<apeiros> asking an instance won't let @bar show up, because it's not there.
<Bilge> Do you think this is good design?
<kilk_> belongs to class variables that start with @@
<apeiros> Bilge: "this"?
<Bilge> Having two separate sets of variables depending on whether the class is created with #new or not
<apeiros> Bilge: um, you don't understand
<Bilge> You're right, I don't
<apeiros> Bilge: it's one unified model. objects have instance variables. classes are objects. therefore classes have instance variables.
<apeiros> good design? hell no, it's excellent design.
<Bilge> I'm starting to hate Ruby
<apeiros> then use another language.
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<apeiros> alternatively try to understand its idioms.
<Bilge> Admittedly I should be using Node but I want to create at least one project in Ruby before dismissing it
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<apeiros> that sounds like you're desperately looking for things you can dislike.
<apeiros> excellent start
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<Bilge> Why does it?
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<apeiros> seriously, if that's your attitude, just dismiss it already.
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<Bilge> I was drawn to all its surface benefits, it's idiomatic expressiveness which is touted by extravagant manuals like _why's guide
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<Bilge> But then I am repelled by all the deep quirks that lie beneath its shiny exterior
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<apeiros> if you'd pay attention, you'd notice that it has actually very little quirks.
<Bilge> Oh, everything is an object, isn't that great? But don't try to extend any of the core objects that will never work!
<apeiros> most of how it works can be reduced to a small number of rules.
<apeiros> Bilge: "try to extend any of the core objects that will never work!" says who?
<Bilge> It's littered throughout all the literature I've read
<Bilge> Blog posts, manuals and even comments in this chat
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<apeiros> i haven't seen anything saying it wouldn't work
<apeiros> I see plenty saying you shouldn't, and with good reason.
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<apeiros> because you shouldn't change basics unless you understand the consequences.
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<Bilge> I'm not talking about monkey patching
<Bilge> I'm just talking about inheritance
<Bilge> Of basic objects like Array and Hash or whatever
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<apeiros> you mean inheriting Array, Hash etc?
<Bilge> Set is a standard library class that basically proxies every method of Hash just because extending Hash isn't a good idea
<apeiros> again, understand the reasons. and nobody says "that will never work"
<Bilge> It's fundamentally fucked up if you can't reuse the basic building blocks of software
<apeiros> but you seem to prefer to just go all hysterical about it instead of learning and understanding.
<Bilge> You seem to prefer to have a baseless argument about it instead of teaching something that would aid in understanding why I might be wrong
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<apeiros> you see, the reasons for it have nothing to do with ruby. they're the same in other languages which have inheritance principles.
<apeiros> Bilge: I'm not interested in teaching somebody who thinks being hysterical and negative was a good way.
<apeiros> come again when you're willing to learn.
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<shevy> Bilge it's not entirely "everything is an object"; For instance, this here won't work: x = 5; def x.hi; puts "hi"; end
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<Bilge> Just another quirk
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<shevy> more like you must have read it from someone who claimed it to be so
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<Bilge> The docs, as I recall
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<shevy> can you link
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<Bilge> If I come across it again I may
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<shevy> so you can't
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<shevy> well educated man
<apeiros> of course he can't
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<shevy> he could at least try to
<shevy> it's difficult to learn a programming language from random blog posts Bilge
<apeiros> that'd require his statement to be true
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<shevy> there is the programmers
<shevy> the brogrammers
<shevy> and the blogammers
<apeiros> it's just as hysterical as his claims about all blogs and all the literature saying "it won't work!"
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<shevy> he'll master the knowledge of all blogs
<shevy> even if they note down wrongful information
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<Bilge> Totally
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<shevy> a true javascript cowboy
<jenrzzz> Bilge: shevy: word of god says “Fixnum and Symbol objects are actually ‘immediate values’ rather than references. Neither of these classes have mutator methods, so Fixnum and Symbol objects are immutable, which means that there is really no way to tell that they are manipulated by value rather than reference.”
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<mordof> shevy: lol, those 3 classifications for types of people - what would a brogrammer be like?
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<shevy> mordof the friendly chap that likes beer and is always cordial
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<mordof> hm
<shevy> of course his code is mediocre because he turns up late for work, and got a hangover still
<mordof> and the "blogammer"? though i think an r could be useful in there
<shevy> the blogammer is the internet cowboy that learns programming languages from blog entries
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<mordof> heh
<shevy> it always gets very interesting when different blogs write about the same things and describe them differently as well
<shevy> 2 + 2 = 4
* mordof is actually taking a stab at writing a blog about his learning of Ruby
<shevy> 2 + 2 = 5 (maybe)
<shevy> mordof you need to dramatize
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<crome> and add bacon
<mordof> noted
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<shevy> food?
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<jenrzzz> mordof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi_AAqi0RZM [Twilio's definitive brogramming primer]
<shevy> remember the hobbits in lord of the rings?
<mordof> yeah
<shevy> when they were jumping around all together sexily in the same bed?
<shevy> those were hipster brogrammers
<mordof> lol
<shevy> don't dismiss hobbits
<shevy> they have fast fingers, so they make excellent coders
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<shevy> and they redefine the meaning of "team brogramming" ...
<shevy> oh damn
<shevy> mordof, I forgot that you were mordof
<shevy> mordof I thought you are some other m-dude, some older one
<mordof> o.o
<mordof> haha
<shevy> but you are the weird guy who wants to write html parsers in ruby as first project :\
<mordof> yep
<shevy> did you stop with that already?
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<mordof> nope
<shevy> :(
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<shevy> mordof hmmm
<shevy> mordof I think a side-comparison would be nice
<shevy> like:
<shevy> Javascript part to the Left | Ruby part to the Right
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<mordof> huh?
<mordof> in my post?
<shevy> yeah!
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<mordof> well.. i didn't really intend to focus on javascript at all
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<mordof> jenrzzz: i couldn't get all the way through that video, lol
<jenrzzz> you can never be a brogrammer
* mordof does not want to be a brogrammer
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<shevy> you could become a hobbit mordof
<shevy> mordof... that sounds almost like ... mordor
<mordof> -.-
* mordof sighs
<mordof> i regret choosing a name so close to that
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<mordof> chose this name well before i had heard about LoTR, but it's always there to haunt me, lol
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<shevy> well
<shevy> mordor sounds better than mordof
<shevy> one of my favourite ones is "saruman", it has a cool ring
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<mordof> yeah, mordor does sound better.
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<mordof> that's why it's unfortunate
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<shevy> lol
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<shevy> ok mordof
<shevy> let's talk about something interesting
<shevy> mordof your second project in ruby
<shevy> mordof, what will it be about?
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<shevy> there are actually a few things on my todo list
<shevy> any takers :(
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<mordof> ooh
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<mordof> sorry i was distrcted
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<mordof> shevy: my second project will be something in Rails
<mordof> not sure what yet
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<jenrzzz> mordof: you’re writing an HTML parser?
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<mordof> jenrzzz: yes
<jenrzzz> sounds fun
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<jenrzzz> for certain definitions of the word
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<mordof> lol
<mordof> i'm enjoying it only because it helps get me into many different features of ruby
<mordof> i've written parsers in other languages, so it's not really anything new for me in that respect
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<jenrzzz> sweet. what do you usually write in?
<mordof> js/php/c#.net/sometimes python
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<benzrf> ew php
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<mordof> yep, lol
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<mordof> benzrf: that being a big reason why i'm here :p
<benzrf> haskell is the best for parsing
<benzrf> it's so good
* mordof shrugs
<benzrf> oh wait were you the one who preferred to manually write a parser
* benzrf eyerolls
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<mordof> nah that wasn't me
<wallerdev> parser generators are the best for parsing imo
<benzrf> in haskell we have a library called Parsec
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<benzrf> check this out 1 sec
<wallerdev> although html its hard to use one with if you want to handle broken stuff
<jenrzzz> +1 for writing own instead of parser generator
<mordof> it's not that hard to write on your own.. and especially for a learning purpose i prefer it
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<mordof> so benzrf, while that wasn't me who said it, i still agree with that
<mordof> :p
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<benzrf> less than a page of code for a fully-working lisp parser :-)
<wallerdev> yeah some of us dont have time to write our own parsers anytime we need to scrape some html haha
<benzrf> that creates the data structure toordog
<benzrf> *too
<benzrf> not just a parse tree
<benzrf> (although that's a similar thing in lisp...)
<jenrzzz> one of my programming assignments back in the day was writing an OCaml interpreter in OCaml
<jenrzzz> it was enlightening
<mordof> wallerdev: i'm not writing one to scrape HTML per say - not for any particular task though
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<mordof> wallerdev: i'm waiting for a job to start up, and learning ruby in the meantime.
<wallerdev> i wrote a css3 parser awhile back in c#
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<wallerdev> well not sure if i ever finished that
<benzrf> jenrzzz: thats my lisp in haskell
<benzrf> close enough :-)
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<mordof> benzrf: it's too bad i don't know haskell enough to read that
<mordof> i stopped really early on with it
<mordof> Haskell is one of the few languages that, without having thoroughly learned it before, i couldn't understand
<jenrzzz> yeah some parts of the syntax are really unintuitive for me
* mordof nods
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<benzrf> they're not unintuitive
<benzrf> they're just different
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<benzrf> you're used to algol-likes
<benzrf> and haskell is radically different
<benzrf> it's not that much harder from a base level
<benzrf> it's just harder when you're used to other languages being close
<benzrf> :-)
<mordof> indeed
<benzrf> basically it's like learning to code over again
<jenrzzz> they’re unintuitive because my intuition doesn’t work on them. not necessarily a bad thing, just means it takes a little more work to grok it
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<benzrf> your intuition doesnt work on them because intuition grows with practice
<benzrf> i bet your intuition didnt work on the first language you learned very well at firt
<benzrf> *first
<jenrzzz> nope