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<mordof>
initializer in a class is basically the same as doing def myconstructor; end; myconstructor inside the class right? (in respect to how it's called and stuff)
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<mordof>
i saw some examples where it had method calls inside the class (not in a method itself).. so it made me think about that
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<mordof>
tried to use require 'myfile.rb' to bring in the class i made in myfile.rb, and i get the error 'require: cannot load such file -- myfile.rb (LoadError)
<mordof>
but load 'myfile.rb' works...
<mordof>
(they're in the same folder, the caller file and myfile.rb)
<mordof>
anyone know why that is?
<mordof>
oh nevermind - goes through $LOAD_PATH .. so it doesn't look in the directory where the current file is unless that directory is added there
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<mordof>
still - would've thought it'd look at the same location where the calling file is
<arrubin>
mordof: There are security reasons for not doing so.
<mordof>
arrubin: thanks
<mordof>
oh?
<mordof>
arrubin: i'm pretty new to ruby.. i made a class, and i wanted to include it in another file. what's the proper way to do this if just loading in relative files comes with some security concerns?
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<arrubin>
mordof: For development it barely matters.
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<arrubin>
But imagine if require always looked in the current directory.
<arrubin>
Even things like set or date could be loaded from the current directory by accident.
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<mordof>
i should mention - i'm a PHP developer.. that's pretty much how everything works in PHP, lol
<mordof>
well, coming from that background
<mordof>
so "imagine if require always looked there" <-- is "normal" for what i know
<mordof>
hmm
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<mordof>
arrubin: any chance you have a link, or could spell it out for me a bit more?
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<arrubin>
mordof: Your program might include "require 'date"", which is a standard library.
<arrubin>
But you might not be paying attention and there might be a date.rb in your current directory.
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<mordof>
arrubin: how is that a security concern though? the only thing that comes to mind is "what if someone stuck a standard library name in the relative directory?" <-- well they could do the same with other locations that it already does check for those libs, overwriting it.. couldn't they?
<mordof>
sure, it'd suck if the developer did that
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<mordof>
i can see why it's *helpful* to have the distinction between the two with that example though
<mordof>
but not sure where security concerns come from
<arrubin>
mordof: It is actually such a common problem in the UNIX world that . is not generally included in root's path either.
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<arrubin>
Security problems are often caused by multiple vulnerabilities.
<arrubin>
Perhaps one vulnerability allows me to write a file to some directory on your machine.
<arrubin>
And then your use a language or tool which commonly looks in . for files to execute, as require once did.
<arrubin>
s/your/you/
<mordof>
that is using the logic that the ruby require paths are generally a bit harder to get write access to for overwriting?
* mordof
is on windows, and didn't immediately think of that distinction
<mordof>
arrubin: thanks. i'll go over those to understand more about it
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<shevy>
mordof just use require() all the time and you are fine
<mordof>
shevy: but i want to require a file that's in the same directory - why would using require over require_relative() make sense in that case?
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<arrubin>
require_relative is much safer.
<shevy>
mordof because it is shorter to type for one
<arrubin>
That is a terrible reason.
<shevy>
mordof and because it works perfectly well
<shevy>
arrubin what reason would anyone have for require_relative?
<mordof>
arrubin: indeed - i think in the stackover it mentioned that require_relative ignores the current working directory, and actually navigates to that files' folder to look for the "relative" file
<mordof>
shevy: he just explained, in length, and gave links, for that reason
<arrubin>
shevy: require_relative performs a require relative to the path of the program being executed instead of the current directory.
<shevy>
mordof and?
<mordof>
shevy: and it's reasonable and makes sense
<mordof>
so do it
<mordof>
:p
<shevy>
arrubin completely unnecessary for anything installed in ruby's sitedir
<shevy>
mordof I don't do so in 10 years of ruby and everything works perfectly fine still. strange isn't it :P
<arrubin>
shevy: He has mentioned several times now that he wants to require a file in the same directory as his program.
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<shevy>
ok let's see what kind of workarounds we have here
<shevy>
require 'yo.rb'
<shevy>
LoadError: cannot load such file -- yo.rb
<arrubin>
That does not work.
<shevy>
require './yo.rb'
<shevy>
# => true
<shevy>
huh
<arrubin>
And that is unsafe.
<shevy>
ohhhh
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<shevy>
what does unsafe mean
<arrubin>
And negates the entire purpose of removing . from LOAD_PATH.
<shevy>
can it destroy his computer?
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<arrubin>
Yes.
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<shevy>
damn mordof you must be careful
<mordof>
shevy: you've got a running application that sometimes pulls in other files relative to itself. maybe later on in execution. an attacker changes the working directory, and puts in their own file to open up your running application to vulnerabilities
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<mordof>
shevy: result - your program requires a file it didn't expect - but it's similar enough that it doesn't error out... but opens up holes for an attacker to get even *more* information
<shevy>
eh?
<arrubin>
Just remember that the current directory is the devil.
<mordof>
arrubin: anyway - understood. thanks for the help
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<shevy>
mordof can you give me a specific example of such an attack, say the gem is called 'foo', it uses only one require(). how can this be used as attack?
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<mordof>
shevy: gems generally aren't called with './foo' are they?
<mordof>
shevy: you're mixing up use cases
<shevy>
nope, there is absolutely no need for this
<shevy>
mordof what do you mean, what use case am I mixing up? I asked one specific question
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<mordof>
shevy: i'm loading in a file from the same directory as my other running file. i'm not loading in a gem, or something inside a ruby path already established
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<mordof>
shevy: if someone changes where '.' points to - then they can cause my code to run anything they want alongside it
<shevy>
ok so your problem description does not include a gem?
<mordof>
shevy: not at all
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<shevy>
I dont have to use any '.' in any gem
<mordof>
shevy: i'm not talking about gems *at all*
* mordof
sighs
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<shevy>
ok good
<shevy>
so we can happily continue using require() in gems
<mordof>
there's nothing wrong with require() itself - just don't feed it a './<file>' path
<shevy>
why not
* mordof
facepalms
<shevy>
I still dont get that
<mordof>
shevy: go back and read the links provided
<shevy>
I wrote the file?
<mordof>
shevy: not necessarily
<shevy>
how not so
<mordof>
if the current directory gets changed unknowingly, it can require in files you didn't expect / didn't write
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<mordof>
it's a vulernability
<shevy>
how can that happen
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<mordof>
i'm not a unix user.. i don't know how to cause that to happen
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<mordof>
there's going to be ways to do it though
<shevy>
hmmm
<mordof>
cd being one of them
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<arrubin>
Executing your program from a directory other than the one that it is in.
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<arrubin>
Even ignoring the security issues, require_relative is better for that case.
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<arrubin>
If you execute your program using ruby ~/projects/foo/foo.rb and you have a require './bar', it is not going to work.
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<musashi1>
benzrf: u there?
<arrubin>
Unless you happen to have bar.rb in your current directory, which might be anything.
<benzrf>
Musashi1: sup m8
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<arrubin>
mordof: And it is not really a UNIX-specific problem, but UNIX users actually care about security.
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<arrubin>
There is nothing preventing the same problem in Windows other than the fact that the command prompt is terrible so people avoid it.
<mordof>
arrubin: oh for sure.. the reason why i labelled it more so is because there's no difference in security on a windows machine between program files or where the file might be running from, lol
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<mordof>
arrubin: well.. there is some i suppose, but it's trivial at best. that - and yeah, people generally won't launch a file from a different working directory in windows
<musashi1>
benzrf: is the pm working?
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<benzrf>
Musashi1: oops sry
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<mikey85>
message me if you would like to join my Christian channel
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<samies>
anyone familiar with Sinatra?
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<arrubin>
I have heard of it.
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<havenwood>
samies: It's pretty popular. #sinatra
<shevy>
yeah he is there but failed to notify #ruby ;<
<benzrf>
samies: it sounds distinctly familiar
<RubyPanther>
people actually use that ____?!
<havenwood>
samies: Are you familiar with Rails, Ramaze, Camping, Cuba, Scorched, Lotus and Hobbit?
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<samies>
only if you're discussing trains, egyptian corn, getting easy kills in a FPS, illegal tobacco, fancy cars, and short people :)
<havenwood>
samies: Yup, that's what I meant!
<benzrf>
samies: i think u missed cuba
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<havenwood>
samies: oh, i forgot NYNY
<havenwood>
samies: How bout some non-Rack frameworks.. Lattice
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<samies>
I'm trying to iterate over an array in a routewithout using a template - I thought I should be able to do something like @foo.each do |a| a end
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<havenwood>
samies: map or each?
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<samies>
havenwood: I've been trying it with each to no luck
<havenwood>
samies: i guess i don't quite understand what's going on, any code to Gist?
<duncannz>
at first I did the wholething but then it errored out because I had ruby 1.9 instead of 2.0. so now i started again and just finished
<havenwood>
duncannz: working better on 2.0?
<duncannz>
havenwood: yeah it's a slow process that's all. errors I have to google and fix on every second command
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<havenwood>
duncannz: This tutorial may overly complicate things.. Might consider just going straight to latest stable, Ruby 2.1.2.
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<duncannz>
havenwood: only ruby2.0 is in the debian repos?
<havenwood>
duncannz: I thought from the tutorial you'd be using RVM. I just glanced though.
<jimbauds>
Does anyone have a good suggestion for a ruby book?
<havenwood>
jimbauds: The Ruby Programming Language
<duncannz>
havenwood: well I want to follow that tutorial to learn it and it says that using different versions brings in inconsistencies and problems so it should by easier to just use the given versions
<jimbauds>
V2.0 +
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<havenwood>
jimbauds: There's a second version of Well Grounded Rubyist in beta.
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<jimbauds>
Should I buy this book or found another one on ruby 2.0? Im new to ruby sry!
<havenwood>
duncannz: Meh, latest stable Rails and Ruby is a good path. Slightly dated tutorial sounds more painful. :P
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<duncannz>
havenwood: well I just got `rails server` so I'll stick with this.. for now.
<havenwood>
jimbauds: 1.9+ is good. The 2.0 and 2.1 differences aren't too hard to catch up on. Just no 1.8!
<havenwood>
duncannz: by the way, #rubyonrails is the rails chan
<jimbauds>
havenwood: thank you very much
<havenwood>
1.8 is dead, long live 2.1!
<duncannz>
havenwood: thanks
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<agent_white>
duncannz: You'll want to look into using `rvm` instead of using your distro's repo-edition of Ruby.
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<agent_white>
It'll save you some headache in the long run.
<duncannz>
agent_white: ok thanks. maybe I should just uninstall everything and start from scratch
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<duncannz>
but it's working right now anyway
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<agent_white>
duncannz: Whatever floats your boat! RVM just makes it easier, since many distros (CentOS comes to mind), update Ruby on their own time.
<agent_white>
CentOS may still be on 1.9 actually..
<havenwood>
some keep nicely up to date and package well though
<duncannz>
agent_white: my distro has ruby2.0 package
<agent_white>
havenwood: What one do you speak of? :)
<havenwood>
agent_white: arch linux, fedora, etc
<agent_white>
duncannz: Oh okey! Well do that for now just to get rolling on coding! But make sure to put RVM on your to-do list :)
<havenwood>
agent_white: good up-to-date packages :)
<duncannz>
agent_white: I will thank you
<duncannz>
agent_white: I want to learn the basics first
<agent_white>
havenwood: Ah! Yeah I actually am on Arch, but still make sure to RVM it ;D
<duncannz>
I'm experienced with php but want to learn rails because, well, php.
<duncannz>
rails seems way cleaner
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<havenwood>
agent_white: chruby is included in the AUR (hint hint) :P
<agent_white>
^ Welcome to Ruby and Rails! Enjoy your stay. "Matz is nice so we are nice."
<havenwood>
agent_white: but i've heard good things re arch packaged Ruby, seems if you didn't need to switch between versions that might be a happy path?
<agent_white>
havenwood: I've actually never tinkered with (or really looked into) chruby... just heard RVM and followed the pack!
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<havenwood>
agent_white: chruby is ~100 lines of bash and RVM is ~20,000 lines of bash, so slightly different scope to the projects :P But chruby does one thing and does it well, switching rubies.
<agent_white>
havenwood: Yup! Haha I actually was iffy on RVM since I honestly have no reason to switch Ruby versions for the most part... But I guess I used it just because everyone said to use RVM .
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<agent_white>
havenwood: Huh... I'll have to put that on _my_ to-do list :)
<havenwood>
agent_white: works nicely with ruby-install, ruby-build or there's even a lesser used MRVM built into RVM that supports installing for chruby.
<havenwood>
agent_white: Take a look when you get a chance. Sometimes the simplest thing that can possibly work ends up working really well.
<havenwood>
agent_white: RVM2 is worth looking at too, big goals!
<havenwood>
and written in Ruby not Bash :O
<agent_white>
havenwood: Exactly, I was just about to say... not to #archfanboi, but KISS all the way! ;D
<agent_white>
Ooo...
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<jimbauds>
Estimated delivery: June 3 2014 for my book The Ruby Programming Language.. :( This is a long time to wait!
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<agent_white>
Jeebs... are they delivering it by horseback?
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<jimbauds>
no buy amazon!
<jimbauds>
by*
<agent_white>
jimbauds: Jesus... where do you live?
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<jimbauds>
Near montreal
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<jimbauds>
I don't know .. they gave me this date .. It says "Usually ships in 9 to 11 days" !
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<agent_white>
jimbauds: I would shoot them an e-mail telling them that a pre-built house takes a month to ship, not a book... and see what happens :)
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<zillu>
hi, does anyone have good books or tutorials on use ruby with selenium?
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<jimbauds>
haha yeah but I will spend my time writing some code instead! Better to learn than to try to understand the amazon, by horse, delivery system!
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<agent_white>
jimbauds: \o/
<wldcordeiro>
Is there an updated version of _why's poignant guide out there somewhere? There's code that just doesn't work in it. :(
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: That'd be a good thing to do, but afraid not.
<wldcordeiro>
Alright well what about a guide to ruby that's good up to date and not for complete programming newbs?
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: There's a soundtrack... but no updated version. :P
<wldcordeiro>
I'm just wanting to get familiar with the language and know a few others. :S
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: Learn to Program by Chris Pine
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<agent_white>
wldcordeiro: What code doesn't work in it?
<wldcordeiro>
There's no links within the chapter but it's from 5. The Theft of the Lottery Captain
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<agent_white>
eee I still need to finish this guide :) I got to chapter 6 but needed to break for grasping metaprogramming.
<agent_white>
wldcordeiro: What about it doesn't work?
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<wldcordeiro>
agent_white: When you try running that class definition it will complain
<wldcordeiro>
warning: class variable access from toplevel
<wldcordeiro>
NameError: uninitialized class variable @@tickets in Object
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<agent_white>
wldcordeiro: I wonder if "@@" might be a class variable?
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<agent_white>
ie - Change it from "@@" to "$"
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<wldcordeiro>
I can program decently in Ruby, but I come from the Python and Javascript world and there's bits of the language I'd like to familiarize myself with so I've been looking for a tutorial that's up to date
<wldcordeiro>
and not aimed at complete newbie programmers.
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<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: aha, then Learn to Program isn't a good one :P
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<wldcordeiro>
I use rails at my job and get along fine, but I want to write more idiomatic ruby.
<agent_white>
wldcordeiro: Ahhh. Well _why's guide is more of a artifact; not guaranteed to be up-to-date, but guaranteed a must-read.
<wldcordeiro>
Yeah I've found that to be the case lol
<wldcordeiro>
His humor was definitely interesting.
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: The Ruby Programming Language is a good one.
<wldcordeiro>
Not to offend anyone but I just found Ruby's docs to be lacking after being spoiled by Python's lol
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: Ruby docs are getting better but still a ways to go.
<agent_white>
wldcordeiro: I've been intriguied by it... in "memory" championships, people use a similar technique to memorizing large patterns, like in his writing.
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<wldcordeiro>
havenwood: They beat Rails docs at least.
<wldcordeiro>
Those are a mess to me.
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<agent_white>
Basically, making crazy-ass stories about things crazy enough that you cannot forget them! ;)
<wldcordeiro>
Yeah it seemed like his book was more an exercise for himself to prove to himself that he understood Ruby lol
<wldcordeiro>
I tried reading Zed Shaw's translation of his Learn Python the Hard Way book, but it was obvious he put in the minimal effort to make it work in ruby while still looking very much like python.
<wldcordeiro>
Which to me is a disservice to the language.
<wldcordeiro>
If I am trying to learn Ruby I want to learn how to write the code like a Rubyist writes it.
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: listening to the soundtrack as you go through it?
<wldcordeiro>
havenwood: I didn't know there was one!
<agent_white>
I did see it! Never bothered to check it out yet though.
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<agent_white>
wldcordeiro: I wouldn't be the best one to ask... but I'm wondering if maybe, since you're already a dev, the best way to learn 'Rubyist' stuff would be instead to find a few people known for their Ruby code, and study it?
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<wldcordeiro>
agent_white: I have been but there's bits of syntax here and there that I haven't gotten a good intro to and while I can get the gist of what the code is doing it'll usually confuse me a bit.
<wldcordeiro>
Like it took me a bit to understand the @, @@, # and ::
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: was just reading through lotus' code, seems very nicely done: https://github.com/lotus
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<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: best way to understand @@ is as a scourge that should be almost always avoided :P
<agent_white>
havenwood: Isn't "@@"
<wldcordeiro>
havenwood: Well that's good to know.
<agent_white>
a synonym for "$"
<agent_white>
Global vars?
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<havenwood>
agent_white: well, in the since you don't want to use either :P, but no equivalent
<wldcordeiro>
I just get mixed up by the multiple ways to access things inside a class. In python the . character was used regardless of if it was instance, class or whatever.
<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: :: is for namespace, call methods with .
<wldcordeiro>
So I don't know which to use sometimes and then I end up trying multiple methods.
<agent_white>
havenwood: Huh... I guess I have yet to learn of @@. I'll look into it.
<wldcordeiro>
Things like Use :: only to reference constants(this includes classes and modules) and constructors (like Array() or Nokogiri::HTML()). Never use :: for regular method invocation.
<agent_white>
havenwood: Hehe understood :) I do find it wierd these few features are forbidden. I would like to hear of them used properly.
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<havenwood>
agent_white: proper use is nonuse
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<agent_white>
havenwood: Aye, that's why I wonder why they aren't just removed? You know?
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<wldcordeiro>
Like one thing that confuses me is why prefer ternary operators over keywords like if/then/else/end
<havenwood>
agent_white: backwards compatibility, very seldom opportunity to use
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<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: if its a simple one-liner
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<wldcordeiro>
Like it's recommended to avoid 'and' and 'or' over && and ||
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<agent_white>
havenwood: Yeah I figured as such. Maybe some day it'll be phased out and hand-crafting left to those willing ;D
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<havenwood>
wldcordeiro: i think `and` and `or` are fine for flow control, why hand hold on such an easy thing as precedence?
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<certainty>
macsclient Jit.hs
<certainty>
-.-
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<wldcordeiro>
Which would you recommend? The one I linked to is...monolithic lol
<havenwood>
we do agree on a lot though as a community
<havenwood>
two-space soft tab!
<wldcordeiro>
That github one is pretty nice.
<wldcordeiro>
I prefer two-space tabs for everything except python code lol
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<wldcordeiro>
Just makes sense for most things.
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<wldcordeiro>
html, css, javascript
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<wldcordeiro>
even c/c++
<wldcordeiro>
But I haven't touched that in years.
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<agent_white>
havenwood: I got yelled at in another channel for my two-space indents :( Not sure why... Ruby code isn't mean to need that much spacing for readability, it should be readable itself!
<agent_white>
s/mean/meant
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<dseitz>
Don't get why anyone would be like that; what would they suggest you use? lol
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<nowledge>
Hi, does anyone knows that whether Ruby has been used to code some circuitry simulation tool?
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<agent_white>
dseitz: I am a new programmer, but I've seen to run into people who are very biased towards certain languages for no reason... unfortunately :(
<agent_white>
s/seen/seem
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<dseitz>
Oh that will be a constant thing
<dseitz>
People will always think that their X is better than your Y, because of some silly reason Z
<dseitz>
few coders are pragmatic
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<agent_white>
dseitz: I think it's not of pragmatism, but optimism! Like, clearly your "X language will be better than Y language in Z application... but what about in application Q?!"
<dseitz>
nowledge: CirctuiLab.com has used Ruby
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<agent_white>
I see no reason to hate any language, only to see what each can offer! :)
<dseitz>
There are some code samples on their blog; but I do not know any others myself
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<dseitz>
Actually I might be wrong about this *shrug*
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<dseitz>
agent_white: Well yes. You will also meet plenty of people that only use X, and everything else is crap :)
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<agent_white>
dseitz: Yeah I'm a bit sad about that... :( Least I have yet to find a language that 'sucks' rather than is 'different' ;P
<dseitz>
For instance, many professional developers still trudge through C# and ASP.NET MVC for no better reason than
<dseitz>
Even though there are significantly better tools out there; "But we are an MS shop!"
<nowledge>
dseitz: thanks a lot.
<dseitz>
Just an example, not really a direct insult on that specific culture
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<agent_white>
nowledge: Hahaha. Just chitchat, no problem in liking .NET!
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<agent_white>
dseitz: Yeah it was funny... I come from a tier3 network/sysadmin background. I learned ruby to test our dev's website... and the dev I asked for help to write the unit tests would always say "I hate Ruby... etcetcetc". But _always_ when he said "I wonder if..." and wrote some code, it worked!
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<agent_white>
I was like... dude, you should code some Ruby if it's so natural for you.
<dseitz>
That describes a lot of places.
<dseitz>
I proposed a solution to an internal knowledge base, using Ember.js and a light node/ruby/python backend
<dseitz>
It was declined; statement, "We cannot use technology that has not been proven to be effective in the industry." Which I became upset and said, "So why the hell are we going to use MVC??"
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<agent_white>
dseitz: Hahah fuck... I hope in my career I'll avoid the "We can't use open source, the code isn't reliable if it's free!"
<dseitz>
That is how some shops are; they buy into the idea.
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<dseitz>
Used to be a big Eclipse/Java site; now they do a lot of C#, and naturally, felt that MVC + Knockout.js was somehow superior to anything else, even though it took them 6 months to develop a server that feeds manuals to employees through a portal...
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<dseitz>
And the thing is offline a lot... a lot
<agent_white>
Jesus.
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<dseitz>
Our primary website is worse. In development for over 2 years; offers users an upgrade in some features over past website and significant regressions in other areas. Some bugs have been in reports for over a year and have not been resolved.
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<dseitz>
Front-end is so insanely slow and resource demanding that it manages to free some client's computers for 2 minutes or so while it processes a request to retrieve... a list of transactions lol
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<dseitz>
s/free/freeze/
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<agent_white>
Good god.
<agent_white>
I have some 'exciting' things to look forward to when I land my junior dev job, eh? ;P
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<dseitz>
Maybe, maybe not.
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<dseitz>
This is not an entirely negative thing. They are a medium sized company that experienced rapid significant growth and had to reform quickly. So in a way it was a good thing. This was just one poor decision in a mix of good ones.
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<dseitz>
Unfortunately, people don't like their tools sucking; so it also places a significant burden on our support teams, who had to build a staff just because the website sucks :)
<dseitz>
I assume the back-end itself is well designed, because the mobile services are stellar and almost flawless
<dseitz>
It's just this website
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<dseitz>
Is it down right now, website rating is 2/5 :S
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<dseitz>
While our direct competitor's website has a 4.6/5
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<Hanmac1>
shevy: new methods in ruby, there is a Enumerable#slice_before but now also a #slice_after
<Hanmac1>
and Float#next_float & Float#prev_float
<dseitz>
agent_white: And they are using something based on Yui
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<agent_white>
Hanmac1: Since when?
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<agent_white>
dseitz: Ouch... that's something my past company didn't realize. Lots of it does come down to design first... fuck features if people don't know how to use them easily.
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<agent_white>
Or if they dont' use them at all.
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<Hanmac>
apeiros: what do you think of this? (newest ruby-trunk code) (2.0).next_float #=> 2.0000000000000004
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<ra4king>
Hello!
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<havenwood>
hi!
<ra4king>
I'm beginning an ambitious project that will consist of a backend written in another language and that will expose a simple socket connection using a custom protocol for communication and management
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<ra4king>
to control this backend, I've researched into good tools for developing a robust frontend
<ra4king>
I've chose Ruby-on-Rails, so thus begins my journey with Ruby and Rails
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<ra4king>
expect many questions! :D
<havenwood>
ra4king: for Rails specific stuff there's #rubyonrails too ;)
<ra4king>
havenwood: excellent, thank you!
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<ra4king>
first I have to learn Ruby, so I will be mostly here
<ra4king>
to fill up my bookmarks bar, links to excellent tutorials for experienced programmers learning Ruby?
<jokke>
any good tutorials on oauth2? It's not clear to me for example in what form i should store client secrets and authorization codes on the server.
<jokke>
(encrypted, plain or hashed, etc)
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<ra4king>
alright well it's 7am, that's all for tonight
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<ra4king>
thank you all for the links and help
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<eval-in__>
jhass => no implicit conversion of String into Integer (TypeError) ... (https://eval.in/152940)
<Freddan962>
It does error. Without commenting away that line - error on 34. When commenting away it, error on line 35. (if condition)
<havenwood>
Freddan962: if you drop #split_line and #encode_line and change line 8 to the following does it work?: encoded_lines = %w[date max_temperature min_temperature].zip(lines.split.map(&:to_i)).to_h
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<havenwood>
why is hash named array, gah
<havenwood>
lol
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<Freddan962>
Because it is a array of hashs :D
<havenwood>
but... it isn't
<jhass>
Freddan962: choose names that reflect what the data represents, not what the data structure is
<Freddan962>
jhass: What would you name it?
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<jhass>
well, I'm not entirely sure what the data is
<Freddan962>
max, min temp and the date.
<jhass>
temperature_datapoints or something like that I guess
<havenwood>
Freddan962: in your #find_biggest_variation method, try `puts array.class` >.>
<havenwood>
having `line` be at one point a String and at another an Array is really confusing, as is `array` being a Hash
<jhass>
and hash being an array apparently
<havenwood>
all the variable names are lies! :P
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<Freddan962>
My life is a lie D:
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<Hanmac>
havenwood: time for DoctorWho yet?
<Kilo`byte>
umm
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<Kilo`byte>
someone can help me find out why my webrick can't bind port?
<Kilo`byte>
its not used by system
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<renier>
Hi, could someone point me to how to get my Rakefile to create the gem package for my project?
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<shevy>
Kilo`byte what error do you get
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<shevy>
renier no idea. but if you have a .gemspec you can do: gem build *gemspec
<Kilo`byte>
shevy: apperently it still runs, just one of its binds fails
<Kilo`byte>
[2014-05-18 17:49:24] WARN TCPServer Error: Address already in use - bind(2)
<shevy>
Kilo`byte hmm I think that means it can not run at all
<Kilo`byte>
well
<Kilo`byte>
it binds once for ipv4 and ipv6
<Kilo`byte>
latter fails
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<jhass>
Kilo`byte: that's normal to give the previously running application a chance to come back and accept pending connections, if it wishes to do so
<shevy>
aha, never noticed that. I always understood it that if it tells me that the address is already in use, it means that port is completely blocked
<shevy>
what port do you attempt to use
<Kilo`byte>
8000
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<Kilo`byte>
which isn't occupied according to netstat
<shevy>
you are on windows?
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<renier>
shevy, thanks. I discovered that once you have the packagetask integrated, it gives you a magical `rake build` that creates the gem.
<aoeu>
havenwood: I would describe the API once. Map resources to each other.
<aoeu>
'That field map this field in that other class..."
<aoeu>
Then, I could ask "Show me a person, his name, a list of his friends, etc". And not write a single line of code to get the data.
<aoeu>
I just declare what data I want bound to the UI.
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: in the phrase "REST ORM" the API is called "REST"
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: yes
<RubyPanther>
That's the whole point of REST, instead of free-form, problem-related APIs you have a 4 (well, 6) method API
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: That's not the problem.
<RubyPanther>
If you want to write a generic client that does something useful, for example with the difference between lists of resources and individual entries, the problem is you have to consume an XML REST API, because the HTML ones will have a bunch of fluff to parse
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: That part is fine. I don't like RPC.
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: okay, I'll just stop typing
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: I want to write a generic client that does everything.
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<RubyPanther>
3 lines of leadup surely has the point, too
<aoeu>
But for that, it must understand APIs. It must understand what each field of an object represents.
<RubyPanther>
(and yes, that part IS the problem)
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<aoeu>
you guys do ruby
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<aoeu>
you don't know
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: More generally, if you think you know what the problem is, just look it up. Don't ask. Ask when, like here, you don't really understand it.
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: I'm looking for the quickest way to make the visuals of an app into a working app.
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: I feel like not having to manually manage the flow of data would help a lot.
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: That is an entirely different question that involves a different problem than what you were asking for
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: If there was a substantially better way of building web apps other than using a framework... there would be a framework using this new methodology ;) You should probably be focused on putting your data into a CMS so that you can manage it with metadata, then you can ignore the actual data values
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<RubyPanther>
And if you get the CSS into the CMS, then the visuals are totally abstracted out
<gdogg>
what's the ruby on rails channel?
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<havenwood>
gdogg: #rubyonrails
<gdogg>
ty
<havenwood>
yw
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: I'm looking for a framework. A framework that bind data to my UI.
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<aoeu>
havenwood: I don't want to use any wrapper. I don't want to manually fetch any data.
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: the app is the layer that binds the data and UI, the framework is a set a libraries and tools that the app uses
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<havenwood>
aoeu: What does automatic data fetching look like?
<RubyPanther>
If you abstract out the data so that you're using metadata in the UI template, then you're there. You still have to look it up, of course.
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<havenwood>
aoeu: My example you give it the username, it fetches the user and maps it to an Object. What do you want to happen?
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<havenwood>
aoeu: if you controlled the API you could do a hypermedia API and probably do something fancy
<havenwood>
aoeu: but otherwise you're at the mercy of what the API designer has done, i don't know how you'd avoid at least mapping to it once
<aoeu>
havenwood: I give someone a template to fill. I don't care how the person gets the data, how many doors he has to knock on, how many calls he has to make. I just want the right data in the right place. I want a framework that does just this, handle all the data fetching for me.
<aoeu>
All we have to do is agree on semantics, about what we mean by "person" and "name" and "email address".
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<fwaokda>
if I have an array {35=>4, 37=>1, 48=>3} ... how can i get the key value for the key with the maxiumum value?
<aoeu>
havenwood: Since I don't control APIs, I have to add metadata to them, to emulate some kind of hypermedia fanciness.
<RubyPanther>
When you give a human a template to fill and you just want them "To Get It Done No Matter What Don't Ask Me How" that is A) really bad management B) not a way of getting things done, but a way of assigning blame. But when your code fails, it is always your fault, no matter who you delegate to.
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<aoeu>
havenwood: Someone will have to map it once, of course. But only 1 person once.
<havenwood>
aoeu: So like in my example, i mapped it once, like 3 lines of actual code. What part can be automated?
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: With a CMS you have somebody map it one time, and only once.
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: I don't delegate to blame.
<VinDH>
if I start learning ruby today, how long till I master it
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: I delegate to avoid duplication of effort.
<fwaokda>
havenwood, actually i want 35 to be returned
<havenwood>
fwaokda: that isn't the largest key, oh - the key for the largest value?
<fwaokda>
im trying to get 35 to be returned since it has the max value
<RubyPanther>
Somebody connects a metadata string like :thingy_on_the_top_of_page and then adds something to a template that asks the CMS for that data in the right spot. Now it is fully abstracted.
<aoeu>
havenwood: Can you just drag&drop a TextBox in your UI and map the "Text" property to "User's first name" and just let the magic work?
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<fwaokda>
havenwood, yes sorry about that
<RubyPanther>
You can do the same for the CSS
<havenwood>
>> {35=>4, 37=>1, 48=>3}.max_by { |_, v| v }.first
<aoeu>
When the name of the user changes, the TextBox is updated. When you hange the value in the TextBox, the name of the person is updated on the server. Etc.
<havenwood>
fwaokda: ^
<havenwood>
aoeu: drag? huh, what are we talking about?
<havenwood>
aoeu: i'm confused
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: What CMS does that?
<fwaokda>
havenwood, ok thanks! what's the underscore in |_,v| doing?
<havenwood>
fwaokda: it means don't assign a local variable to that block argument
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<aoeu>
havenwood: Drag? Like drag&drop a control from a toolbox.
<havenwood>
fwaokda: `k` would be unused
<aoeu>
havenwood: Have you never done any UI work?
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: that's what they all do. If you roll your own you'll save time, because the CMS is simple but has different needs for different apps/managers
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<zastern>
So, I always read that you should use curly braces for single line blocks and do/end for multiline blocks; but curly braces seem to work just as well for multiline blocks. Is there a compelling reason not to use them that way, other than convention?
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Why don't all apps get build on CMS?
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<havenwood>
aoeu: I work with Ruby on the command line with a text editor. What does this have to do with UI work?
<havenwood>
zastern: convention only
<fwaokda>
havenwood, so it could work with |k,v| but it's unecessary since it's not used, and it just saves on memory then?
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<aoeu>
havenwood: What do you code?
<shevy>
is there a way to do this:
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: because they do, except that the app is built "on a framework" and "has a CMS." A UI is often constructed with a CMS, really any time you don't have an in-team UI person/group
<havenwood>
aoeu: Ruby in #ruby.
<bah_>
VinDH, impossible to answer, some are fast learners other not
<havenwood>
aoeu: No dragging and dropping involved.
<aoeu>
havenwood: Why don't you use visual tools?
<havenwood>
aoeu: my text command line, REPL and text editor are visual tools
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Did you ever have to write your own "Person" or "User" class?
<aoeu>
havenwood: Why don't you use tools that show you the actual visual result of your work?
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<aoeu>
havenwood: You just imagine it in your head?
<RubyPanther>
I always use a CMS because I prefer using an "artistic" (read: technically incompetent) subcontractor for the UI. And with a CMS, I just have a list of specific things they have to fill in, that map to various CSS classes and page copy
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<havenwood>
aoeu: i make it real with code? i have no idea what we're talking about.
* havenwood
sulks away
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: those types of model classes are generally handled by an ORM, like with rails you'd normally just be choosing the fields in a generator, and you'd only modify a User class to add a call to activate some auth plugin
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: ask Radar in #rubyonrails, he's the expert
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<bah_>
bah_, ruby is easy to get started with and you can start build simple programs maybe after a week or two. To build more complex things or read programs other been writing can be hard, as a first language I should not pic ruby
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<shevy>
hey
<shevy>
did you just talk to yourself?
<bah_>
VinDH, I think python are a better for somebody new to programming
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<aoeu>
C# is best
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<shevy>
guys what is going on here
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: So you reuse the User class that someone else created?
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Radar is expert in what?
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: it is created by the generator, typically. At the same time as the database schema.
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: rails
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: But you have to define the fields, somehow?
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Or is it done automagically?
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<aoeu>
Do people reuse other people's classes a lot?
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<banister_>
aoeu that's what gems are
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<aoeu>
banister_: And people use them?
<aoeu>
I mean, for trivial stuff.
<banister_>
aoeu yes they use them, for trivial stuff though, it depends how trivial
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<aoeu>
banister_: A user or person or city class.
<banister_>
aoeu huh? no, i dont think so
<banister_>
aoeu it completely depends on your business needs
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<aoeu>
No it doesn't.
<aoeu>
A person is a person.
<banister_>
Yeah it does...
<banister_>
aoeu Yes, but depending on your exact use case, you might be interested only in certain attributes of a 'person'
<toretore>
aoeu is a troll, ignore
<aoeu>
That's the problem with the world. People thing everything is business dependant. They think no generic solution can work because every problem is different.
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<banister_>
aoeu it's impossible or nearly impossible to model an entire person…you want live/intestintes/fingernail attributes in your Person class?
<aoeu>
All problems are the same. The problem is that people don't think them through properly.
<havenwood>
aoeu: We write a bit of code, no problem.
<banister_>
aoeu for a medical use-case those things make sense, for a business use case, it probably doesnt
<aoeu>
banister_: Only use the specific attributes then, don't recreate a lesser person class.
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<aoeu>
banister_: As much as possible, yes.
<banister_>
aoeu right so --- a business that's only interested in a user name and password should *also* have lung/feet/eyeball attributes? have you heard of YAGNI? :P
<havenwood>
aoeu: If you want a clickable API interface that doesn't use text code, maybe you're looking for a web browser?
<RubyPanther>
That people at least attempt to identify the needs of the problem domain is certainly NOT what is wrong with the world. If you said the problem was that people assumed everything is just "a website" and ignored the business-dependent factors, then I'd agree.
<RubyPanther>
Generic solutions are not suitable for building web apps. They are for building web clients, which is where REST gives a lot of gains. See also: semantic web
<aoeu>
banister_: The person still has a lung and heart and nails. Why ignore it? You don't have to read these properties if you don't need to.
<aoeu>
banister_: The key is that all people refer to the same thing when they say "person"
<banister_>
aoeu becaues they're totally unnecessary to your business applicaiton and just add unnecessary complexity and bloat?
<havenwood>
aoeu: bloat is bad
<havenwood>
aoeu: complexity is bad
<RubyPanther>
But the app building will need to map from the generic to the problem domain. Hiding from that in building the app guarantees suckiness.
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<RubyPanther>
buildre
<RubyPanther>
builder
<benzrf>
04:26 < aoeu> banister_: The key is that all people refer to the same thing when they say "person"
<benzrf>
aoeu: i disagree
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: No no no. There will only be 1 website when this thing is going to be done properly. We don't need more than 1 anyway.
<havenwood>
aoeu: the simplest thing that can possibly work is preferable to the most complicated thing that can possibly work
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<RubyPanther>
aoeu: Then you wouldn't benefit from generics
<havenwood>
One website is enough. The web is bloated.
<havenwood>
Okay...
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: My goal is the semantic web.
<banister_>
lol
<aoeu>
APIs should be RDF.
<benzrf>
:-O
<havenwood>
aoeu: I really think you're looking for a web browser not a programming language.
<aoeu>
havenwood: Complexity is forking the "person" class.
<zoidfarb1>
Hey there, apologies if this a stupid question, but I'm new at Ruby. I'm getting this error trying to run some code from a Rails tutorial: undefined method `nill?' for nil:NilClass
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<havenwood>
zoidfarb1: two 'l's
<zoidfarb1>
d'oh
<zoidfarb1>
*hangs head in shame*
<zoidfarb1>
thanks!
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: I'd have thought so from your first question, but it turned out you wanted something else, which is to build an app, and you're not trying to optimize for automated clients, you're trying to optimize so the app programmer doesn't have to know what the app does. You'll be in exactly the place where you can't build a semantic client because the app won't have glued things together
<havenwood>
aoeu: I'm not sure that words means what you think it means.
<RubyPanther>
a "semantic browser" presumably would be an XML-consuming client
<RubyPanther>
like a "MIB browser"
<benzrf>
xml suga
<benzrf>
*sugs
<havenwood>
RubyPanther: Or maybe... an HTML5 consuming client, like a web browser.
<benzrf>
aoeu: ever heard of REST
<benzrf>
i think you might like it
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: My real purpose is simple. To build an app/os/browser/whatever that can be used for anything. The last application. The only application. That's the goal. But for that, knowledge has to become generic.
<aoeu>
No more arbitrary data modeling.
<benzrf>
aoeu has been here before
<RubyPanther>
havenwood: Well, "semantic web" is about clients, it is about automated clients being able to navigate
<havenwood>
aoeu: Ruby isn't the best language to write a browser in.
<benzrf>
im not sure theyre not a trole
<aoeu>
benzrf: I know REST. I came here asking for a REST ORM.
<toretore>
he was quite obviously trolling #rubyonrails
<benzrf>
ORM?
<benzrf>
in what sense
<benzrf>
oic
<havenwood>
aoeu: So you want to map objects to a relational database?
<aoeu>
benzrf: What has been done before?
<havenwood>
aoeu: what do you think an ORM is?
<aoeu>
havenwood: I'm here because there are progarmmers. I'm not here because of Ruby.
<RubyPanther>
I don't think he's a troll, I think he's a misguided yout with a "good idea"
<aoeu>
toretore: I'm not trolling. I increase chances to get a reply.
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<benzrf>
aoeu is one of those people who thinks the inner-platform effect is a good thing
<ra4king>
what are good editors used for ruby?
<ra4king>
I have notepad++ and sublime2 here on Windows
<havenwood>
ra4king: What OS?
<aoeu>
havenwood: No. I want to map objects so that it makes a graph. Then I want to build a UI that understands what should be displayed and fetch datafrom the graph automacically.
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<havenwood>
ra4king: Sublime then.
<RubyPanther>
I already built The Last Application.
<aoeu>
Predicate-oriented UI.
<benzrf>
ra4king: vim is always the best editor
<benzrf>
:-)
<ra4king>
naaahhhh
<havenwood>
aoeu: Maybe a web browser plugin is what you're looking for. :P
<benzrf>
ra4king: lazy
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<ra4king>
benzrf: I'm on windows anyhow
<aoeu>
benzrf: A better inner-platform.
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<benzrf>
aoeu: lol.
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<RubyPanther>
It was great, the only problem was, it took twice as long to get the details right.
<benzrf>
ra4king: then dont be
<benzrf>
switch to a good OS
<benzrf>
:-O
<aoeu>
See the problem? People are still asking what's the best _text_ editor for Ruby. Is this some kind of a joke? Why are we still here, it's not 1980 anymore.
<ra4king>
I wish I could use linux as my main OS, but gaming
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<havenwood>
aoeu: Postman or Advanced REST client for Chrome.
<benzrf>
ra4king: what games do u play
<RubyPanther>
Avoid details and porting your app will only take minutes anyways, regardless of your data
<aoeu>
Graph-oriented UI is the future. Everything should be done through this.
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<ra4king>
benzrf: mostly BF4
<havenwood>
aoeu: Again, not Ruby.
<benzrf>
aoeu: lel
<benzrf>
ra4king: >not playing only pretentious indie hipster bullshit
<benzrf>
ra4king: >2014
<benzrf>
top lel
<ra4king>
...
<benzrf>
ra4king: im being facetious dw
<aoeu>
benzrf: I'm making a virtual-reality inside of reality. Of course the inner-platform effect occurs.
<ra4king>
of course
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<aoeu>
havenwood: Fuck these shits. I know them. I don't want to write a single line of REST in my life again.
<aoeu>
I stopped writing SQL. I must stop writing REST.
<havenwood>
aoeu: I get it, you want to drag and drop not code.
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<benzrf>
aoeu: have you tried Wix
<toretore>
you just don't understand man... it's all connected!!
<aoeu>
havenwood: Has code to be text? No.
<aoeu>
benzrf: What's Wix?
<benzrf>
i was trolling u
<benzrf>
its a Free Website Creator tm
<RubyPanther>
GNU Emacs wasn't released until 1985, so if you stopped looking for the perfect editor in 1980 you'd be screwed.
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<benzrf>
RubyPanther: yeah, vim *did* come out after '80
<aoeu>
Oh god.
<havenwood>
aoeu: This is Ruby, code is text. The Unix way.
<aoeu>
benzrf: People still come here, for some reason. Hence why I'm here. I would be elsewhere if I could.
<havenwood>
aoeu: Try that.
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: you can keep your proprietary crap and GUI crutches
<aoeu>
havenwood: that's for kids
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<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Insulting my Microsoft tools?
<RubyPanther>
The choices are: emacs, vim, proprietary crap, and IDE crap.
<RubyPanther>
My advice, choose emacs or vim.
<benzrf>
RubyPanther++, for once in my life
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: That's cause you like pain and Ruby.
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Why don't you use a proper IDE?
<benzrf>
aoeu: pls get out
<havenwood>
Troll.
<benzrf>
aoeu: go bug bret victor or something
<aoeu>
benzrf: I'm a fan of Bret Victor
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<aoeu>
benzrf: Is he on IRC?
<benzrf>
no idea
<RubyPanther>
aoeu: If you're really that fragile, emacs has pull-down menus for everything. I'm sure you can find whatever feature you need without getting a paper cut.
<aoeu>
That's a shame his website is the opposite of everything he aims for.
<havenwood>
aoeu: Yup, blockly is probably your best bet.
<RubyPanther>
I assume by "proper IDE" you mean, "some tool that does a bunch of crap I don't understand and couldn't reproduce by hand if I had to or if I needed it down slightly different"
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<RubyPanther>
s/down/done/
<aoeu>
havenwood: Blocky is what people thought visual programming was 20 years ago. It's lego mindstorm-ish.
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: Yes. Visual Studio.
<havenwood>
aoeu: Sounds like you're sold!
<benzrf>
aoeu: troll pls go
<csmrfx>
to me it sounds like someone needs to get laid
<RubyPanther>
visual programming better be lego-ish, otherwise it failed at its only selling point
<toretore>
it's like.. intellisense, but in 3d!! direct brain 2 visual basic integration
<aoeu>
toretore: except there's no intellisence, you have to pick your block by hand and test if it fits
<aoeu>
toretore: you can't just invent new shapes for every data type and expect people to try to make them fit together
<aoeu>
there's more than strings and ints and bools in the world.
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<csmrfx>
just use vim
<RubyPanther>
I remember taking a VB class in college (I needed a summer credit before starting the CS program) and they actually made me redo the assignments using the GUI. I tried explaining that VB is actually just regular BASIC code, the "visual" part is an optional IDE, not part of the language... but it was taught by a CIS guy, not a CS guy
<csmrfx>
if you not happy, you can even code em with ruby
<csmrfx>
aoeu: you are mistaken
<RubyPanther>
guess what, everybody has had that for... over a decade...
<aoeu>
csmrfx: perhaps
<aoeu>
RubyPanther: but it's different
<havenwood>
aoeu: Intellisense. You crack me up.
<RubyPanther>
named differently, yes
<csmrfx>
but, since you are a troll, you dont care about what works?
<havenwood>
we should probably stop feeding the troll
<RubyPanther>
emacs knows what classes I have, what methods I have. Not that I use that feature, since I also know the APIs I'm using... I hope I do...
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<benzrf>
CIS?
<benzrf>
whats CIS
<RubyPanther>
Computer Information Systems
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<RubyPanther>
as in, a keyboard monkey specializing in "using applications"
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<toretore>
a word wizard
<RubyPanther>
watch out, he's trained in access and he WILL embed a sucky db into your spreadsheet
<toretore>
excel expert
<benzrf>
aoeu: go look at http://bubble.is/ and stop poorly trolling us pls
<benzrf>
*instead of
<toretore>
powerpoint proficinado
<aoeu>
benzrf: I'm not trolling. I'm actually giving blocky a shot.
<toretore>
i don't know of a single programming problem i'd rather have solved with a gui
<csmrfx>
gui layout
<arrubin>
toretore: What about a non-developer?
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<toretore>
non-developers aren't developers, hence they're not developing
<arrubin>
toretore: Why must one be a developer to create software?
<toretore>
trying to dumb down programming is not feasible
<toretore>
because it's a hard problem
<benzrf>
i find that GUIs are good for using without separate learning
<csmrfx>
I think the keywords are there
<csmrfx>
programmers solve hard problems
<benzrf>
it's usually not hard to get the hang of a GUI program with experimentation
<toretore>
it's inherently complex and there's as of now nothing to do about that
<benzrf>
but CLI tools usually require more reading of man pages
<csmrfx>
developers use the solutions from programmers to wire together apps
<csmrfx>
simple as that
<benzrf>
OTOH CLI tools are also more powerful if you put the time in
<toretore>
developers are programmers
<benzrf>
so it's a matter of how much power you want/need
<csmrfx>
nope
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<benzrf>
and how much time youre willing to spend
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<toretore>
if you're not a programmer, you're not a software developer
<csmrfx>
developers would like to *think* they are programmers
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<csmrfx>
the difference? a couple of lisp parsers worth
<arrubin>
toretore: So there is no place for non-developers to model data and create basic forms to access it without involving a developer?
<toretore>
access does that
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<toretore>
and it's very limited
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<arrubin>
Quite a lot of possible with Access actually, but MS seems to have dropped the ball with the web.
<toretore>
if you can drag some boxes around and wire them up to interact with a db, good for you, but it's not programming and it's not software development
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<arrubin>
s/of/is/
<toretore>
but to get to the real power of access you'd have to drop down to the level where you need to be a programmer
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<arrubin>
toretore: How much of that is due to the fact that MS has not done much with it for the last decade?
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<toretore>
not much i'd say. it's still a very difficult "problem"
<toretore>
programming is difficult, and that's just the way it is, for now
<arrubin>
Is it?
<toretore>
prove me wrong?
<arrubin>
How much of the average Rails app really needs to be created by a developer?
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<centrx>
The parts that do things
<arrubin>
Data modeling certainly does not in most cases.
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<toretore>
you won't get far with rails generators, plugins and scaffolding
<toretore>
that was the promise a lot of people saw, and they were duely disappointed to find out it's not that easy
<arrubin>
toretore: That seems to be due to a lack of tools more than anything.
<toretore>
and that's why we have a whole bunch of shitty rails devs ;)
<arrubin>
Form builders have existed for decades that could handle many of the use cases of views.
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<toretore>
arrubin: if it were that easy, someone would've made it
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<arrubin>
toretore: Would they?
<toretore>
form building is not development
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<arrubin>
toretore: Many seem opposed to providing such things.
<toretore>
which is sensible
<toretore>
it's false hope
<toretore>
you can't program without being a programmer
<arrubin>
toretore: It is one aspect of what would be needed to allow non-developers to build basic applications without a developer.
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<toretore>
what would such a non-developer do when their site gains attention and slows to a crawl?
<toretore>
adjust some levers to run more instances?
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<toretore>
it's not that easy
<toretore>
then they want to integrate with 3rd party services
<arrubin>
toretore: I see such a tool being used for small internal apps more than anything.
<arrubin>
Not the next Twitter.
<toretore>
"oh, we have a plugin for that!"
<toretore>
sure, it's doable, but it's not going to be the norm for a long time still
<arrubin>
There does not seem to be any attempt to make progress.
<arrubin>
I think that a lot of it is that developers do not really want to put themselves out of jobs.
<toretore>
programming still requires programmers who have spent many years learning their trade and getting the necessary experience
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<toretore>
it's been tried lots of times
<arrubin>
toretore: Does it? That does not seem to be what goes on in most programming today.
<arrubin>
Most programming today seems to be barely competent people gluing together API calls.
<toretore>
no, unfortunately not
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<shevy>
I feel you guys are hating on PHP again
<toretore>
they will get 50% of the way, then they're stuck
<shevy>
centrx say something
<toretore>
i've seen it a hundred times
<arrubin>
shevy: No one mentioned that heresy.
<toretore>
then some poor bastard will have to fix their mess
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<arrubin>
toretore: Is there even something that is similar to Access in one of the popular dynamic languages/
<arrubin>
?
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<arrubin>
I know that there are a few tools like ZOHO Creator and Oracle Express.
<toretore>
there has been attempts
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<toretore>
all predictably failed
<toretore>
it's not super difficult to rebuild access
<arrubin>
Why is their failure predictable? MS Access did not fail.
<arrubin>
MS has mostly failed to bring it to the web though.
<arrubin>
And there are dumbed down apps like Wufoo that are very successful.
<toretore>
there are lots of web app generators
<toretore>
their dumbed down-ness is why they're successful
<toretore>
i'm not saying that software development will never be sufficiently commoditized to be truly plug and play, but it's a long way from now still
<toretore>
and the people who used to be progammers will find jobs in new fields where expertise is needed
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<arrubin>
I am not claiming that it is an easy problem, but it does not seem like we are even attempting to make progress.
<arrubin>
No one seems to have moved past what Access was capable of decades ago.
<arrubin>
And most tools are even more basic.
<toretore>
it's a daunting task
<benzrf>
i wonder
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<benzrf>
smalltalk seems to me to seem sort of well-lended to visual programming
<toretore>
you see lots of development in ai stuff like what google does, which could be a prerequisite
<arrubin>
toretore: I do not think that competent developers would need to find new jobs. They would build the tools used by others.
<shevy>
benzrf yet it failed
<arrubin>
What we would lose is many of the people who do not belong in the field.
<benzrf>
shevy: because it is a walled gardne
<benzrf>
*garden
<benzrf>
of sorts
<shevy>
yeah
<benzrf>
keep in mind how ruby looks compared to ASM though
<shevy>
a prison with a pretty garden on the outside
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<toretore>
arrubin: the problem with "dumbing down" programming is that it's a leaky abstraction
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<toretore>
you get these tools that aren't abstracted in a way that they are easily composable
<toretore>
meh, now i'm just talking gibberish
<shevy>
I would not notice a difference toretore
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<toretore>
let's talk about how tdd is dead instead
<shevy>
but arrubin seems to have stopped talking altogether
<arrubin>
toretore: I do not expect a tool to allow someone to build Wolfram Alpha. I do question why an expensive (in the US at least) developer is required for many Rails CRUD apps.
<toretore>
sure
<toretore>
it's a good point
<toretore>
the answer is, i think, that "simple crud apps" never are
<toretore>
or they stop to be very fast
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<toretore>
"oh, and if you could integrate with this payment processor too, that'd be great"
<toretore>
"and we need an audit system"
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<arrubin>
I do believe that common things, like payment processing, could be handled by plug-ins.
<toretore>
and they are, in stuff like wordpress and that thing radar works on
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<toretore>
spree
<arrubin>
I also do not expect these apps to be built by the secretary or something.
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<toretore>
there are lots and lots of people specializing in building these kinds of apps.. spree, shopify, joomla, wordpress
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<toretore>
it's a thriving economy
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<toretore>
but, das ist nicht programmierung
<shevy>
ack, german invasion!
<arrubin>
The end result is what is important.
<arrubin>
Not whether someone is performing a specific activity to make it happen.
<shevy>
that's my slogan when I have to do big business on toilet
<toretore>
of course
<GlenK>
so Array.index isn't working like I thought it should. I have an array of integers. if I do something like "data.index(33)" it's not spitting out the position of 33 in the array. any ideas where I'm going wrong?
<toretore>
GlenK: let's see the code
<GlenK>
k
<toretore>
then, explain what you expect and what you get
<RubyPanther>
It wasn't your wordsmithing, it was your fascination where there should have been a "WTF"
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<benzrf>
RubyPanther: how is that a WTF
<benzrf>
you take the sequential reductions of an expression to its end result and do a git-bisect-like search on it for the bug
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<benzrf>
what is wtf about that
<RubyPanther>
benzrf: fascination is a property of the human, not the code. So the WTF would be being said by the programmer. I did not say the code itself was "a WTF." Note the position of the letter "a" compared to the quotes above.
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<benzrf>
ok, so why would a non genius go wtf
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<RubyPanther>
They'd go, "WTF, why would I want to spend my time worrying about a problem like this?! I'm going to get back to writing syntax errors, isolating reductions has nothing to do with 99% of the problems I solve, but here I am debugging it."
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<RubyPanther>
THe whole part of having an extra problem to solve being "fascinating"
<benzrf>
ummm
<benzrf>
isolating reductions is literally the technical term for debugging.
<benzrf>
well
<benzrf>
isolating erroneous reductions
<RubyPanther>
I'm sure it is. I'm also sure I enjoyed writing expressive crap in Perl, too. Debugging it is a waste of time though, even if once I figure out what I wrote I find it a fascinating solution.
<benzrf>
you feed in an expression, the graph it represents is reduced to a result
<benzrf>
the result is wrong
<benzrf>
therefore you want to find the reduction that introduced an unexpected result
<benzrf>
simples
<benzrf>
jjjjjjj
<benzrf>
gah i need to stop doing that
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<RubyPanther>
what, talking like a valley girl? Its kinda cute
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<benzrf>
no, holding down j and then pressing ctrl
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<shevy>
is that because you are using vim
<benzrf>
i try to press ctrlw to go back a word
<benzrf>
*delete a word
<benzrf>
but the ctrl+j hits before i press w
<benzrf>
=[
<benzrf>
jjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
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<DaniG2k>
hey guys how would I rewrite the following using reduce: inject(0){ |acc, i| acc + (i - mean)**2 }
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<havenwood>
DaniG2k: reduce is an alias for inject
<DaniG2k>
havenwood: yeah I know but I'm just curious as to how to rewrite that
<shevy>
hehe
<DaniG2k>
i dont think i understand how to use reduce
<DaniG2k>
inject takes a block whereas reduce takes a symbol
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<apeiros>
DaniG2k: um, what about "it's an alias" did you not understand?
<apeiros>
it's *the same thing*. and no, there are no differences in what they take.
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<jimbow>
has anyone completed the test first ruby?
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<noob101>
I have a question.
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<noob101>
How do I keep track of the number of elements in an array. Example, deck = [[Queen, 1], [Queen, 2]] <- How do I keep in track of the elements or what method do I use to tell me how many elements I have?
<jhass>
.size
<noob101>
Thank you jhass. I will try that.
<jhass>
or .count to count specific kinds
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<noob101>
what is the difference between #size and #count?
<noob101>
jhass:
<jhass>
what I just said
<csmrfx>
noob101: install ri
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<csmrfx>
you need ri
<csmrfx>
.g ruby ri
<noob101>
csmrfx: what is ri?
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<csmrfx>
noob101: what is google?
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<jhass>
read through the Array class and the Enumerable module, like 50% of Rubys power is in these you should at least vaguely know what's there
<csmrfx>
noob101: you may already have ri installed with your rube
<csmrfx>
*ruby
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<noob101>
csmrfx: Your help isn't needed for me, thank you for he help I would rather have jhass help me though. Thank you once again.
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<csmrfx>
noob101: I dont care
<csmrfx>
noob101: you need ri
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<csmrfx>
noob101: install ri
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<csmrfx>
noob101: have you installed ri?
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<noob101>
jhass: I used both the methods in irb and it they both gave me the same output.
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<jhass>
^ get some kind of documentation
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<jhass>
rtfm
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<noob101>
#size and #count
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<shevy>
you just need to get the basic vocabulary right once, then you can proceed to speak in a more complicated way with ruby
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<jhass>
noob101: come here if you have trouble understanding what the docs say or need more examples, but show you did invest a little bit of effort first
<noob101>
Oh, ri stands for ruby interpreter. Yeah I have that.
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<csmrfx>
ri rocks the docs
<noob101>
jhass: Ok.
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<apeiros>
no, ri is ruby information
<noob101>
jhass: thanks
<apeiros>
it's the doc reading tool
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<noob101>
jhass: pry-doc, I should install that? It would help me with commands and stuff right?
<benzrf>
its coo
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<csmrfx>
hehe pry may be bit too much for you, noob101
<noob101>
what is it?
<csmrfx>
what is google?
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<csmrfx>
good luck!
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<shevy>
what is yahoo
<csmrfx>
I'm a yahoo!
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* csmrfx
yeehaaw *rides the repl into the sunset*
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<noob101>
I have a question. How do I delete an element in an array but I want the array to be that way. Example. deck = [["Queen", 1] ["Queen", 2]], I would like to eliminate ["Queen", 1] but still have ["Queen
<noob101>
["Queen", 2]*
<csmrfx>
ri Array.delete says you can give the item you want to delete as argument
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<csmrfx>
of course, ri Array shows Array.delete_at that you could use if you know the array index of the item you want to delete
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<noob101>
csmrfx: Thank you, your help is very helpful.
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<csmrfx>
one can only help oneself!
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