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<zenspider>
corundum: seen imperator?
<corundum>
dunno
<corundum>
imperator was last seen 2 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes and 21 seconds ago, leaving #ruby-lang
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<zenspider>
corundum: botsnack
<corundum>
zenspider: =D
<zenspider>
zspencer: ary == ary.sort ?
<zspencer>
@zenspider I actually wound up doing that.
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<zenspider>
do the simplest thing that could possibly work
<zspencer>
I had a brain fart. Normally I have a pair to take over when an obvious solution exists that I am not seeing.
<zspencer>
But alas, solocoding :/
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<zzak>
too many z's
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<xalei>
I'm confused what is (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ supposed to be
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<TylerGillies>
is there a way to do something similar to include MyModule::Submodules as fred, then do fred.some_function, in ruby?
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<TylerGillies>
s/Submodules/Submodule/
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<drbrain>
xalei: table flipping
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<xalei>
aha
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<jtoy>
how does one do testing with workers that are running in their own process?
<drbrain>
jtoy: test each part in isolation
<drbrain>
if you want to test work dispatch, have the work be something trivial, like 2 + 3
<jtoy>
drbrain: i want to test a "master worker" that calls a bunch of other workers
<drbrain>
jtoy: I see four general components work submission to a queue, worker pulling a job off a queue, worker putting result on a queue, master retrieving data from a queue
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<drbrain>
oh, and master spawns a child
<jtoy>
drbrain: yeah i have the same setup, but I also have some jobs that all they do is call a bunch of jobs in order
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<jtoy>
i am using gearman
<drbrain>
in that case, there's no need to test gearman, just test that your job fills the queue appropriately
<jtoy>
drbrain: yeah, i guess i can do the small jobs
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<freedrull>
NoMethodError: undefined method `delete_if?' for ["", "aaa"]:Array
<freedrull>
wat :(
<freedrull>
have a feeling this is one of those "i drank too much coffee" problems
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<erichmenge>
freedrull: What do you usually put in your coffee?
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<erichmenge>
freedrull: it is #delete_if also #blank is something Rails adds.
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<freedrull>
gah
<freedrull>
erichmenge: thanks !
<freedrull>
i had clover coffee
<erichmenge>
Oh I thought maybe you were drunk :P
<freedrull>
quite a level of caffeination X_xx
<freedrull>
i don't drink and irc
<freedrull>
..............anymore
<erichmenge>
hah
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<yorickpeterse>
Morning
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<xalei>
yorickpeterse, evening =)
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<Gekz>
hey guys
<Gekz>
the input i have is a list of xml nodes, and the output I want is a list of all those individual items' .text method
<Gekz>
unsure how to go about that, as in Python I'd just do a list comprehension
<whitequark>
.map(&:text)
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<Gekz>
I'm not familiar with this & notation
<whitequark>
Gekz: that's a shortcut for .map { |obj| obj.text }
<Gekz>
okay cool, so why is it followed by a colon instead of a .?
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<whitequark>
ah. see, do you know how blocks work in Ruby, and what symbols are?
<Gekz>
yes, and yes.
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<whitequark>
very good. the unary & calls the to_proc on its receiver, and then passes the resulting closure as the blockarg to the method call it was used in.
<whitequark>
i.e. a(&lambda { x }) is the same as a { x }
<whitequark>
the symbol has a to_proc method too, which is defined as follows:
<yorickpeterse>
I can partially understand the reasoning behind it. I just think the idea of non programmers writing tests is very stupid in itself
<yorickpeterse>
Though that's mostly because of the clients I've dealt with so far can be quite dumb
<rolfb>
yorickpeterse: your exact concern is addressed in the blogpost
<yorickpeterse>
I've read it
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<rolfb>
then you've understood that it's not about non-programmers writing tests?
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<yorickpeterse>
Well yeah
<yorickpeterse>
Another thing I dislike about it is that it seems that more often than not you'll end up writing duplicate code (at least what I've seen): the gherkin stuff and the corresponding Given/Then code
<yorickpeterse>
But I suppose that's a matter that can be resolved by Cucumber supplying more stuff out of the box.
<rolfb>
yorickpeterse: i found that to be more about defining the roles of the application more carefully
<yorickpeterse>
In short: I just prefer `foo.should == bar` over "Given I have a box of cookies, that box of cookies should contain 10 cookies"
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<rolfb>
yorickpeterse: yeah, a lot of people are writing scripts
<whitequark>
*except 1.9.1, which is why you DO NOT USE 1.9.1
<charliesome>
isn't that the first rule of ruby? :p
<whitequark>
kind of :D
<whitequark>
also I lied about Object being in cref. it's present in the lookup path implicitly
<yorickpeterse>
The first rule of Ruby club is that you do not use 1.9.1
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<charliesome>
whitequark: so if i'm understanding this correctly
<charliesome>
every iseq has a cref describing its lexical scope, every cref points to a parent cref?
<whitequark>
charliesome: I guess that's how it is implemented in MRI
<charliesome>
cool
<whitequark>
from the semantics point of view, at each point in the program there's a cref chain
<charliesome>
i'm in the middle of an MRI deep-dive to figure out exactly how refinements are implemented
<whitequark>
which is lexically defined
<charliesome>
already found one bug!
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<andrewvos>
Can someone link me to an article that explains Time, Date and DateTime?
<andrewvos>
It's about time I learned what the fuck is going on there.
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<yorickpeterse>
What exactly do you want to know?
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<yorickpeterse>
Time/Date is what you'd usually use, DateTime is slower but if I remember correctly will work fine after 2038 (or whatever the date was)
<yorickpeterse>
Though I don't remember the full ins and outs of it
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<rolfb>
isn't there a pure c implementation of datetime too?
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<yorickpeterse>
Not sure
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: hm. bacon is a bit chunky^W hacky, but minitest is way more hacky.
<whitequark>
so, bacon it is
<whitequark>
minitest/unit is 1500+ LOC and most of them aren't pretty.
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: the code isn't too awesome but it works and I haven't really had to bother with it
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<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: you're talking about bacon now, right?
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<yorickpeterse>
Yes
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<whitequark>
well yeah, it's also really small.
<rolfb>
and smells nice
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<andrewvos>
yorickpeterse: Interesting. But why are there so many?
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<andrewvos>
yorickpeterse: And what's the difference between DateTime and Date?
<andrewvos>
I understand that Time should probably not include years/months/days?
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<yorickpeterse>
From the top of my head: Time uses timestamps or something and thus won't work after a specific date, it is however faster
<yorickpeterse>
Date: well, no clue really
<yorickpeterse>
I think it's more of a "this feels more "right"" issue
<yorickpeterse>
Though I believe Date has a few extra parsing methods
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<andrewvos>
All sounds pretty nasty :(
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<judofyr>
rindolf: can you log into rubygems.org with the same username/password?
<rindolf>
judofyr: let me try.
<rindolf>
judofyr: hmmm... I can with my handle ("ShlomiFish") but not with my E-mail.
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<lzhz>
judofyr: must be a simpler way to convert to hash? array.each_slice(2).each_with_object({}) { |s, h| h[s[0]] = s[1] }
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<judofyr>
lzhz: hm… don't think so
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<banisterfiend>
judofyr: what's your implementation when you want to do a find_indices? (like find_index but return all indices that match the predicate)
<judofyr>
banisterfiend: I just wrote one right now :O
<banisterfiend>
judofyr: lulz
<judofyr>
you are freaking me out a bit now
<judofyr>
Hash
<banisterfiend>
judofyr: i needed one right now too
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<i_like_rails>
I have a method that takes an array as input (from Dir.entries). It then checks to see if any of those values in the array are directories. Everything fails the directory? and file? tests. Is this because FileTest doesn't know which directory to look in or something? How does Dir and FileTest keep track?
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<rindolf>
i_like_rails: hi.
<rindolf>
i_like_rails: are the paths relative or absolute?
<i_like_rails>
rindolf: Hi. Relative.
<rindolf>
i_like_rails: OK.
<rindolf>
i_like_rails: did you use File.join ( ... )?
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<i_like_rails>
rindolf: Nope.
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<rindolf>
i_like_rails: then you may need to.
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<i_like_rails>
rindolf: Thanks, I will take a look!
<rindolf>
i_like_rails: you need to make sure the paths contain the containing directory.
<i_like_rails>
rindolf: Ok, thanks. I'm doing some recursive calls. It seems that Dir knows where it is most of the time, but not all the time.
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<rindolf>
i_like_rails: you're welcome.
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<rindolf>
i_like_rails: maybe you should use a directory traverser.
<i_like_rails>
rindolf: Like Find? I need to traverse in a specific way, though.
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: what's with mirroring?
<yorickpeterse>
Well, right now Rubygems.org is the single place where *everything* is hosted. If that goes down it affects thousands of developers
<yorickpeterse>
It would be nice if people could set up mirrors similar to CPAN
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<whitequark>
yup
<yorickpeterse>
They also really need to stop downloading the entire manifest file to search remote gems
<manveru>
rubygems is on S3
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<manveru>
so it's mirrored, actually :)
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<yorickpeterse>
manveru: rubygems.org isn't
<manveru>
the website?
<yorickpeterse>
Yes, and you still talk to it when installing gems
<yorickpeterse>
Even though the files are on S3
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<yorickpeterse>
Another good reason for mirroring would be for large companies: set up a local mirror and save yourself the bandwith when updating/installing stuff
<yorickpeterse>
Geminabox does that but it's not entirely the same
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<yorickpeterse>
Really what I'd want is to do something like `gem install rubygems-mirror`, run a command, configure it and be done with it
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. something that takes less than 15 minutes
<yorickpeterse>
and can be accessed by others when installing stuff (e.g. `gem install foobar --mirror=....`
<manveru>
well, in theory you can set the source
<yorickpeterse>
Yes, but you'd have to set up *everything* manually
<manveru>
gem install --source URL
<yorickpeterse>
Plus it probably insists on using S3 for storage instead of saving it locally
<manveru>
just put --source URL in your .gemrc
<yorickpeterse>
So you'd need an S3 account as well
<manveru>
that's how github gems worked, and how the switch to rubygems.org from rubyforge worked
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<yorickpeterse>
well, if you set up Geminabox you're off a good start
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<yorickpeterse>
You'd just need to sync 20k gems to it, which it can't handle according to some issue
<yorickpeterse>
would be nice if that came built in
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<yorickpeterse>
Too many tools do it differently
<manveru>
rubygems isn't that bad, or my 4 year old hardware is way overpowered
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<yxhuvud>
judofyr: iiiiinteresting. I will try that out on my dev environment (a crappy kvm. my raisl3 app take more than 30s to start. ~200 models and corresponding controllers make things pretty slow..)
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<manveru>
dunno, rvm is built-in enough for me :)
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<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: bandwidth? LOL
<whitequark>
it's 2012 and home users routinely get 100mbit here
<whitequark>
S3 is more of a bottleneck.
<whitequark>
btw, `gem install
<whitequark>
' doesn't download all of the manifest anymore afaik
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<whitequark>
rubygems.org has some kind of dependency resolution API or smth like that
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<whitequark>
it has been down recently and everything simply became very slow
<yorickpeterse>
I recall that for a while it would download a manifest file when running `gem search`, parsing this Marshal file would cause it to use around 200MB of RAM
<yorickpeterse>
Not sure if this is still the case
<yxhuvud>
namidark: depends on atomicity of << with regards to context switching. I wouldn't bet on it.
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: well, it does GET /latest_specs.4.8.gz, but it uses HTTP caching, and also the unmarshalling grows RSS by 9M
<whitequark>
which is good enough by any means
<whitequark>
namidark: yes, it is
<whitequark>
also, you seem to be writing an article on GVL. don't. or at least don't do it this way.
<whitequark>
you're leading people into thinking that there is some domain of operations which are essentially MT-unsafe, but are MT-safe under the assumptions provided by the current MRI implementation
<whitequark>
that is technically correct, but a) MRI may and will change b) multithreading in MRI is fundamentally broken
<whitequark>
no one should TEACH working with MRI frankenthreads, ever
<whitequark>
use synchronization primitives or immutable data. period.
<whitequark>
I sincerely hope that this text will never be released on the web.
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<erikh>
not sure why not knowing how your runtime works is a good thing
<namidark>
whitequark: I wasn't; would you mind taking a look over what I am writing about :)?
<erikh>
it's not hard to find fundamental problems in any piece of software.
<whitequark>
erikh: unless you're planning to either use the features or work on the runtime itself, you don't really need that
<manveru>
yorickpeterse: i just checked, rubygems still downloads latest_specs.4.8.gz
<erikh>
horseshit. knowledge is power.
<manveru>
oh
<whitequark>
erikh: I said "need". plain curiosity is a valid reason for acquiring knowledge.
<manveru>
that's what happens when you don't read the backlog kids :)
<namidark>
whitequark: thats what I'm comparing... I'm writing a article on Sidekiq vs Resque, and I was just explaining some concepts of MRI threads vs JVM threads prior to explaining the Sidekiq and Resque differences
<erikh>
^
<erikh>
is a good reason.
<whitequark>
namidark: ah, very well then
<whitequark>
but please please write that one should never rely on that MRI quirk for thread safety
<namidark>
I just wanted to make sure my understanding was sound after looking at the source a bit and reading more on the GVL
<namidark>
whitequark: will do :)
<yorickpeterse>
the multi threading is a lie
<yorickpeterse>
at least on MRI
<namidark>
Are there new plans to get rid of the GVL/GIL, or how would that ever change provided the GIL stays?
<whitequark>
erikh: indeed. what I said is just that teaching to use wrong things is, well, wrong.
<erikh>
it's funny, if you go into ##c and start talking about the heap and the stack
<erikh>
you'll get 10 or so die-hards that insist it's not a part of the spec
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<yorickpeterse>
namidark: don't count on the GIL leaving, at least no in the coming decade
<erikh>
that C "has no stack"
<whitequark>
namidark: afaik GVL will stay in MRI forever.
<erikh>
is this practical? no.
<namidark>
so what would make that "quirk" go away then?
<yorickpeterse>
Different implementation
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<yorickpeterse>
e.g. Rubinius, jruby, etc
<whitequark>
^ that
<whitequark>
and while you can rely on the fact that no two MRI threads _run at once_
<namidark>
Ah okay, well in my context I'm just writing about MRI for that portion... JRuby actually raises an error when trying to operate on the same data structure concurrently
<erikh>
even if MRI didn't have a GVL you still have a lot of other things to consider
<whitequark>
you cannot certainly rely on the fact that << won't be interrupted in the middle of execution
<erikh>
or to take an example from another language
<erikh>
look at how LLVM optimizes builtins vs. GCC
<erikh>
:)
<whitequark>
it's not a thing that MRI guarantees. it just happens to be true.
<namidark>
erikh: beyond my depth at the moment :)
<whitequark>
if << would be a ruby method, that won't be true.
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<whitequark>
if something monkey-patched <<, that won't be true.
<whitequark>
etc
<namidark>
awesome... thanks everyone for all the info!
<whitequark>
(ruby method) I meant "method defined as ruby code", but you probably understood that
<whitequark>
erikh: (LLVM/GCC) I would certainly like to look at that! do you have any specific pointers?
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<whitequark>
erikh: (C has no stack) with all the I/DB and UB in the spec, "pure", in the strictest sense of pureness, C is basically useless
<whitequark>
just as a fancy macroassembler like C would be useless without a defined target arch, but I digress
<whitequark>
so, ##c should be named ##c-on-common-von-neumann-processors, but that's probably too verbose.
<whitequark>
on certain interesting architectures, mainly DSP processors, C can actually have no stack and no heap.
<whitequark>
not in the x86-with-a-modern-OS sense, at least.
<erikh>
whitequark: I had a link around here somewhere, but in -O3 LLVM will actually omit any call that modifies memory without referencing it later
<erikh>
so, if you have a password in a string, and the last thing you do with it is bzero/memset it to null it out
<erikh>
LLVM will remove that call entirely
<erikh>
GCC will not.
<whitequark>
erikh: ah, I have read that article
<erikh>
and (again, ha ha stack people) because of the way stack frames are allocated, there's a high likelihood the next malloc will have that memory segment in it
<erikh>
voila, free passwords, all thanks to your compiler
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<namidark>
erikh: i saw that actually a few days ago, wasn't it about secure cryptography or something like that?
<erikh>
anyhow, point is, a huge part of programming portably is knowing your implementation and defensively guarding against its quirks
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<erikh>
it's the reason autoconf and similar tools exist
<erikh>
anyhow gtg
<erikh>
namidark: yeah it was from a few days ago
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<whitequark>
I always thought that zeroing out keying material was to prevent it from appearing in swap/hibernate files or something like that
<whitequark>
through stack frames are a valid attack vector as well
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<namidark>
so what are the caveats (besides breaking all the C extensions) about changing from a GIL architecture to one that uses NPTL for threads?
<heftig>
you need proper locking all over the place
<heftig>
basically you're replacing a coarse-grained lock (the GIL) with more, fine-grained locks
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<heftig>
that can be hard to get right
<yorickpeterse>
More importantly, third-party developers will probably get it wrong
<yorickpeterse>
Without actually knowing it
<yorickpeterse>
thread-safety is harder than most people think
<whitequark>
namidark: in fact C extensions are somewhat easier to fix
<whitequark>
you only have as many entry points as the external API, and both rbx and jruby have a "95%-compatible" interface
<heftig>
which is why shared-nothing multiprocessing is so attractive
<heftig>
e.g. actors instead of threads
<namidark>
heftig: are actors using threads under the hood to execute though? (ie: celluiod/sidekiq)?
<namidark>
arent*
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<whitequark>
namidark: yes
<heftig>
yes, but that's an implementation detail
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<bougyman>
it just puts the problem under-the-hood.
<whitequark>
^ true. you can use DCell with (almost?) none modifications if you already use celluloid
<whitequark>
bougyman: it solves the problem by restricting the things you can do
<whitequark>
e.g. erlang does basically the same but on a more broad level
<namidark>
kind of like erlang
<whitequark>
rust has a similar opt-in concept
<namidark>
beat me to it :p
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<heftig>
rust is awesome
<heftig>
the way they're changing things, i wonder what 1.0 will look like
<whitequark>
indeed
<whitequark>
I'd vote for rust to become "the next C" / "C++". certainly not go.
<whitequark>
at least rust has actual new useful features.
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<bosie>
why does "{}.merge {"a" => 5}" throw a syntax exception?
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<heftig>
bosie: because the { } construct is ambiguous without argument parentheses
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<heftig>
compare 3.times { puts "Hello" }
<heftig>
{}.merge({"a" => 5})
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<drbrain>
or {}.merge "a" => 5
<bosie>
heftig, drbrain thanks
<drbrain>
bosie: similar is the warning you get from "x".gsub /x/, "…"
<drbrain>
ruby can't tell if you mean "x".gsub(/x/, "…") or "x".gsub() / x /, "…"
<bosie>
drbrain: hmm, i don't get a warning
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<drbrain>
bosie: you need to use ruby -w
<drbrain>
ruby -we '"".gsub /x/, 5'
<drbrain>
I get: warning: ambiguous first argument; put parentheses or even spaces
<bosie>
drbrain: ye
<bosie>
ye, same here
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<matti>
z
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<matti>
zzak: Pong.
<matti>
zzak: Sorry for the delay
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<whitequark>
I wonder why Ruby cannot lookahead three tokens for the { ambiguity
<whitequark>
it still be a LALR(n) | const n
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<whitequark>
the only case where you'd need to disambiguate it explicitly would be an empty block/hash, which is uncommon and can just throw an error like it does now
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<whitequark>
drbrain: btw, your second example does not work: ruby -we '"".gsub / x /, 5' throws a SyntaxError
<drbrain>
whitequark: yeah
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<whitequark>
so I don't quite get what's meant by "even spaces" there. it implies that putting spaces somewhere would add more information than adding parentheses
<whitequark>
which is even more weird
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<whitequark>
and if there isn't a , after the could-be-regexp, it isn't an ambiguity either
<drbrain>
whitequark: IIRC, the parser gets to the first / and complains
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<drbrain>
the "even spaces" part is to help distinguish between "a.b /c…" and "a.b / c…"
<whitequark>
hm
<whitequark>
so, the (/ x /) form unambiguously corresponds to a regexp
<drbrain>
yeah
<whitequark>
and 1, / x / does too
<whitequark>
but / x /, does not
<whitequark>
and there isn't a case where /, is a valid lexeme combination
<drbrain>
I think the warning exists for future syntax changes
<whitequark>
well, I probably should care less about it.
<drbrain>
I don't know of any construction where gsub /x/, "…" isn't a regular expression
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<whitequark>
btw
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<whitequark>
do you possibly know of a nice way to make inheritable dispatch tables?
<whitequark>
I tend to implement that pattern a lot, probably three to five times just in last six months
<whitequark>
and neither of those is pretty
<drbrain>
method dispatch tables? like method missing?
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<whitequark>
basically the problem is that I want to dispatch some external events to Ruby methods, but I also cannot do that with methods alone
<drbrain>
I'm sick today, so I'm not very quick
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<whitequark>
such as I need to attach some metadata to them
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<whitequark>
you get the idea
<whitequark>
and I also need the whole thing to be inheritable, just like regular methods are
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<whitequark>
i.e. inheriting yields you a copy of the table of the parent class
* drbrain
nods
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<whitequark>
and obviously that should work right inside class A < Base, otherwise I could as well wrap it into a method and mandate its calling
<whitequark>
but that's quite error-prone
<drbrain>
I'm too befuddled to propose any solutions
<whitequark>
ok
<whitequark>
I tried to use #inherited
<whitequark>
but that works differently with different ruby versions, as the order of calling (wrt execution of the class block) has changed sometimes
<whitequark>
and I don't even remember if it has changed to the more convenient form or the less convenient one
<whitequark>
the worst part is when #inherited is called after the class definition body and there isn't any method which adds that metadata in that body
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<zzak>
matti: i got one for you
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