ChanServ changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 1.9.3-p125: http://ruby-lang.org | Paste >3 lines of text on http://pastie.org or use a gist
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<zzak> darix: im not sure
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<zzak> darix: there's a thread on ruby-core about it now
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<zzak> adding captch to redmine might resolve it
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<Denommus> I had so much work on delivering a project for a client
<Denommus> it was really, really late
<Denommus> and he was driving me nuts (everything was my designer's fault)
<Denommus> now that I've delivered, he hadn't even looked at it
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<zzak> you skipped thanksgiving for that?
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<Denommus> there is no thanksgiving in my country
<zzak> :(
<Denommus> but I delivered tuesday
<wmoxam> It's only thanksgiving in one country today ;)
<zzak> its over now :(
<zzak> pretty much
<wmoxam> it was over here 6 weeks ago :p
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<wmoxam> zzak: you shopping for deals tomorrow?
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<yorickpeterse> Morning
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<gnufied> morning
<gnufied> yorickpeterse you from UK?
<yorickpeterse> NL
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<whitequark> judofyr: btw, http://pastie.org/5421067
<whitequark> the unpacker code looks like this: http://pastie.org/5422635
<erikh> memory barriers as part of the GC? ermagherd, seriously guize
<judofyr> whitequark: nice!
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<banisterfiend> !seen injekt
<judofyr> whitequark: does it run Rails yet?
<charliesome> whitequark: impressive
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<charliesome> whitequark: do you plan on targeting a vm or emitting native code?
<charliesome> for stage 2
<judofyr> charliesome: emitting JS as a first target, then LLVM
<judofyr> as far as I've heard
<charliesome> interesting
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<heftig> erikh: who are you complaining to?
<charliesome> judofyr: btw, are you a ruby committer? o:
<judofyr> charliesome: nope
<charliesome> oh
<erikh> heftig: eh?
<charliesome> how come you're part of the github org?
<judofyr> but I think I have some commits
<heftig> erikh: 12:16 erikh : memory barriers as part of the GC? ermagherd, seriously guize
<judofyr> charliesome: did some work on ruby-lang.org refactoring, but nothing really happened
<charliesome> ahh
<erikh> heftig: it's a feature of rust
<erikh> someone pinged me a while back in here about it
<erikh> just saw it now
<judofyr> erikh: what do you mean "part of the GC?"
<whitequark> charliesome: yeah, JS then LLVM
<whitequark> the ultimate goal is to make Ruby for microcontrollers, not entirely unlike an unhosted variant of MacRuby
<erikh> judofyr: you can create what's called a shared pointer that holds arbitrary data. threads competing for access to it when automatically enter a synchronized, transaction queue for access to it
<banisterfiend> whitequark: how does it compare to mruby
<andrewvos> erikh: Sounds nice
<erikh> well, write access. I'd have to check the spec again to see if it handles reads differently
<charliesome> whitequark: you mentioned 'typing blackholes' like arrays, etc in your blog post - how do you plan to handle those?
<erikh> it is pretty f'n awesome
<heftig> erikh: well, it does make sense in that the same pointers are subject to GC
<erikh> heftig: no, it's a feature of the garbage collector
<whitequark> charliesome: do you know how haskell works with lists?
<charliesome> detecting which arrays have homogenous types and treating them specially?
<erikh> heftig: as in, "I don't have to write this crap"
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<erikh> I just worry about writing to the pointer, and that shit is rust's problem.
<charliesome> whitequark: also yes
<heftig> erikh: i'd call it a language feature, not a GC feature. that doesn't make sense
<whitequark> charliesome: well I construct intermediate lexical arrays in a way which preserves typing information
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<whitequark> charliesome: so things like multiple assignment and argument parsing works correctly in all cases without losing anything
<erikh> heftig: wanna bet it's handled in the GC code?
<charliesome> right but you'd still have to support arrays as typing blackholes as a fallback, right
<whitequark> charliesome: and for "regular" arrays, i.e. mutable, user-defined ones there would be a way to specify contained types explicitly
<whitequark> yeah, there will be a fallback for everything
<heftig> erikh: are you sure you're not calling the shared pointer code the "GC code"?
<erikh> heftig: ok, let's get our super pedantic pants on.
<charliesome> whitequark: and you figure out which fallbacks are actually required?
<charliesome> in the compiler
<whitequark> charliesome: exactly!
<heftig> erikh: shared pointers are subject to write synchronization and to GC, and no other language feature uses it
<erikh> name a garbage collected langauge that handles memory access outside of the garbage collector
<erikh> not something that end-runs it
<whitequark> charliesome: e.g. if you do really strange things with a well-defined tuple, it is automatically promoted to an Array
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<charliesome> whitequark: if you have something like ["a", 1], do you treat it as a generic array or an array with a String first and a Fixnum second?
<whitequark> charliesome: Tuple<String, Integer>
<heftig> erikh: ah, i think i understand how you're looking at things
<heftig> erikh: never mind
<erikh> all memory access goes through the GC subsystem
<charliesome> whitequark: then if you called shuffle on it, it'd become a generic array?
<charliesome> erikh: C#?
<erikh> whether or not it's collecting garbage as it's current task is a separate matter
<erikh> charliesome: rust
<charliesome> no but you asked for other languages which let you avoid the gc for memory access
<erikh> charliesome: no, I asked for languages which do memory access outside of the GC but are still subject to its rules
<charliesome> ah right
<whitequark> charliesome: exactly. or if it leaves the current scope as a return value and the method is not inlined already
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<charliesome> whitequark: what about indexing an Array<T>, that could either return T or NilClass
<charliesome> haskell avoids that by just throwing an exception
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<whitequark> charliesome: I don't currently plan to optimize for this particular case (Array with Maybe<T>)
<whitequark> through I do indeed collect different possible input types for functions before optimizing
<charliesome> so arrays will only really be optimised when they're used in a tuple like fashion?
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<whitequark> charliesome: exactly
<whitequark> I optimize the most common case, not every single one.
<whitequark> it's basically the same with hashes, keyword argument passing is heavily optimized
<whitequark> regular hashes aren't
<charliesome> ah yes
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<whitequark> I also plan to embrace ruby 2.0 keyword arguments heavily, they fit ideally
<whitequark> it's a pity ruby_parser does not support them yet
<charliesome> do you plan on supporting stupid shit like flip flops or continuations?
<whitequark> charliesome: ooooh, flip-flop, my favorite topic :D well, either no and I'll do `rm @source_file` or with a compiler key
<whitequark> it's not that they are that hard to support...
<whitequark> as per continuations, absolutely yes, they're a very important part
<whitequark> embedded programming often requires you to have cooperative multitasking; in fact, it may be more prevalent than preemptive one
<whitequark> and continuations, or a well-behaved subset of, basically abstract it
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<erikh> heftig: yep, pretty much
<erikh> but that's the only real problem with rust at this point, they can't seem to nail down a spec
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<erikh> they're having like 2/3 of the D problem
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<heftig> erikh: looks like the language go through a lot of changes before it hits 1.0
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<erikh> yeah, that's more or less the D problem
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<erikh> D is/was a really great idea, and they had a quasi spec, so people started building a ton of stuff for it
<erikh> and a compiler! that too.
<erikh> then, they just started adding shit
<erikh> and soon the stdlib split in two
<erikh> and then they had like 3 compilers that all supported different versions of D
<erikh> kind of frustrating.
<erikh> the language has a lot of good ideas baked into it
<judofyr> the only thing I'm really satisfied with with my little language is the name: https://github.com/judofyr/0
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<judofyr> s/with/in/
<judofyr> zero
<erikh> is that like whitespace without the pesky whitespace characters?
<judofyr> erikh: nah, it's actually a proper language. I'm just at the parser/syntax/semantics-stage though
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<erikh> cool
<judofyr> erikh: aiming for the same approach as whitequark: interpreter + compiler
<erikh> neat
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<judofyr> but yeah, stuck at semantics
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<erikh> yeah, language design seems like a fussy topic
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<yxhuvud> it is so much easier to see what is wrong than how to do things right
<erikh> that's true for just about everything though
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<erikh> if you want a great example, see james golick's "I found a bug in ruby! Praise me because I am totally smarter than everyone on the MRI core team" post recently
<apeiros_> erikh: got a link?
<erikh> I'll have to dig it up, sec.
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<apeiros_> erikh: hm? but that's about GC, not about finding a bug and being snub about it - or am I missing something? o'
<apeiros_> o0
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<erikh> there's a bug there, well, sort of
<erikh> it's a memory leak
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<erikh> it's the attitude that's bullshit, not the fix
<apeiros_> ah, golick's in this case?
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<erikh> yes
<apeiros_> I expected an article about such behavior :) I understand now
<charliesome> poor nobu was upset by it too
<apeiros_> erikh: thanks for the link :)
<erikh> aye
<charliesome> oops
<charliesome> nari
<erikh> well, it's like, this guy comes along, finds a bug, and instead of posting it (and a potential fix) to the tracker, he shits on everyone that spends all day fixing bugs just like his
<erikh> some of these people have been doing this for 10 years or more. where the fuck does he get off?
<erikh> I just wish we wouldn't reward this behavior.
<apeiros_> didn't even seem like a bug to me
<apeiros_> rather like intentional behavior
<charliesome> not to mention improving MRI's gc while keeping compatibility with all these c extensions and swaths of core code is not easy
<apeiros_> at least that ever increasing array
<erikh> apeiros_: yeah, I can't say for sure if it was intentional or not
<erikh> either way, this is not how you solve problems.
<apeiros_> I'd be upset if a reporting tool would throw away information without my consent…
<charliesome> the complaint about gc_profile_total_time is valid though
<erikh> again, this is totally not about the bug itself (at least for me)
<charliesome> yeah
<apeiros_> erikh: I understood
<charliesome> totally understand
<erikh> I mean, headius wrote a post a few days back about refinements and how he was concerned about their implementation impact
<apeiros_> but the fact that it probably isn't even a bug makes the whole thing even worse :)
<erikh> he was polite, examined the issues, didn't sling a single drop of mud
<erikh> doin' it right
<apeiros_> mhm
* apeiros_ thinks headius is an awesome "asset" of the ruby community (dang, sounds bad, how'd you say that in a nice way? o0)
<banisterfiend> erikh: i remember when he used to be a jolly plump chap, now he dresses alternative and talks like a wigger, what happened
<rolfb> "contributor to the ruby community" ?
<judofyr> and now he's maybe even solved the performance problem of refinements too!
<apeiros_> rolfb: I think he's more than just a contributor
<apeiros_> but yeah
<charliesome> judofyr: what's this solution i keep hearing mentions of?
<apeiros_> that sounds already better than "asset" (which sounds so objectifying :-S)
<judofyr> "I admit I am a bit reluctant to suggest this, because I still have concerns about the feature itself. But it would be possible for call sites to only need a reference to their calling scope (determined at parse time) to implement dynamic refinements without severe impact to normal code."
<rolfb> apeiros_: "beacon for the ruby community" ?
<rolfb> :P
<apeiros_> :D
<yxhuvud> he brings the bacon.
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<charliesome> judofyr: still seems like you'd need to inspect every refinement that is in effect at that point
<charliesome> it also complicates behaviour inside #refine's block
<erikh> apeiros_: asset is a good term. having people around that are willing to object in constructive ways is a win.
<apeiros_> hrm
* apeiros_ wants binding_of_caller
<apeiros_> Symbol#call -> binding_of_caller.self.send(self, *args)
<charliesome> isn't that in ruby extensions
<apeiros_> erikh: don't know, it just sounds like objectifying a person, which is not my intention
<apeiros_> erikh: but glad it's not entirely off :)
<erikh> I don't see it that way
<erikh> but I can see why someone might think that.
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<yxhuvud> erikh: strange. I read that article and didn't notice anything bad. it may be that I'm jaded due to *very* harsh code inspects at the company I work for, but really - the only way someone could be offended by that is by equalizing complaints against code behaviour to complaints against self.
<yxhuvud> I saw no complaints against people in there - only against behaviour of code.
<erikh> he found a bug
<erikh> he used it as a platform to slam MRI's code
<erikh> go look at the ruby-lang tracker. this is no different than around 10,000 other incidents
<erikh> fix the fucking bug and move on, don't make a gigantic stink about it
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<yxhuvud> we obviously have different standards for what a gigantic stink looks like unless there is more to it than that blog post.
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<erikh> I pray you never have to maintain something that ever has design decisions you regret later and gets popular.
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<judofyr> erikh: what article are we talking about?
<yxhuvud> I have no problem with people swearing about bugs in code I write.
<charliesome> judofyr: james golick
<judofyr> oh right
<judofyr> GC::Profile?
<charliesome> yep
<yxhuvud> or well, I take it as an incentive to fix it but nothing personal.
<erikh> him acting like a jackass has absolutely nothing to do with how you deal with him acting like a jackass
<erikh> I'm just saying that it's depressing that we reward this behavior
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<whitequark> erikh: where do we reward that?
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<erikh> hacker news is like a guidebook on how to act that way
<erikh> and a lot of twitter too
<erikh> anyhow, wondering if anyone else types 'git push origin maser' as much as I accidentally do
<erikh> aaaaand of course now I check if zsh completes it and it does
<erikh> only been using it for like 6 years now
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<rue_XIW> Lolvm
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<erikh> rue_XIW: :)
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<andrewvos> Anyone know how to get nailgun working under cucumber?
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<banisterfiend> apeiros_: binding_of_caller exists :D
<banisterfiend> and i managed to get it in MRI 2.0, too, so it's built in
<erikh> andrewvos: might want to ask in #jruby, but ISTR that nailgun isn't supported anymore
<erikh> also, is there a java port of gherkin? might be a part of the equation
<apeiros_> banisterfiend: you mean it's part of ruby as of 2.0?
<charliesome> banisterfiend: i'm struggling to think of a legitimate use for binding_of_caller
<banisterfiend> charliesome: i use it in the pry debugger: https://github.com/pry/pry-stack_explorer
<banisterfiend> apeiros_: yeah
<apeiros_> nice
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<charliesome> banisterfiend: ah that's pretty legit
<banisterfiend> apeiros_: but its' part of the RubyVM:: API, so it's not exactly public, and not guaranteed to work outside of MRI
<apeiros_> banisterfiend: necessary part of pryrc: $LOAD_PATH.unshift File.expand_path('lib') if File.directory?('lib') :)
<charliesome> i don't ever want to see it in any application code though
<apeiros_> banisterfiend: oh :(
<banisterfiend> apeiros_: it's trivial to hack into rbx though
<banisterfiend> apeiros_: but we didnt manage to get it in jruby
<charliesome> banisterfiend: so you can go binding_of_caller.eval("binding_of_caller") to walk up the stack?
<banisterfiend> charliesome: no, you go: binding.of_caller(n)
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<charliesome> oh cool
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<banisterfiend> charliesome: but in ruby 2.0 u do this:
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<banisterfiend> charliesome: RubyVM::DebugInspector.open { |inspector| inspector.frame_binding(n) }
<andrewvos> erikh: There is but it's not old enough yet
<andrewvos> Mature enough *
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<erikh> ah
<erikh> so is it using a C extension still?
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<andrewvos> Not sure
<andrewvos> We're talking about cucumber-jvm right?
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<erikh> is there a separate project?
<erikh> gherkin is the C magic
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<erikh> I'm probably too tired to have this conversation.
<andrewvos> Oh, I thought it was parsed in ruby.
<erikh> oh, hey
<andrewvos> erikh: It's not the most important conversation in the world either :)
<erikh> want to review some docs for me?
<erikh> it's ok -- in fact good -- if you don't know the source material
<andrewvos> erikh: Too busy right now sorry :/
<erikh> bah
<andrewvos> erikh: But link me
<erikh> shoot me your email
<andrewvos> work at andrewvos.com
<erikh> cool
<erikh> haha man
<erikh> this project, not even release ready yet, but someone elsewhere asked about tools that solve this problem so I told them to give it a shot, letting them know it wasn't ready
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<erikh> yesterday, I got an email with "this is awesome!" and some small bug reports
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<erikh> today, I got patches.
<erikh> feeling pretty good atm
<andrewvos> nice!
<erikh> I mean, 1/3 of the project isn't even on rubygems.org yet
<andrewvos> Someday I hope to have a project that gets popular. An entirely non-troll project.
<erikh> haha
<erikh> I really liked what you were doing with cukes and android
<yxhuvud> do you have popular troll-projects?
<andrewvos> Yeah, will get to use that in anger soon
<erikh> the android guys at work went with another project though
<andrewvos> yxhuvud: Not really
<andrewvos> erikh: calabash-android?
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<erikh> yeah, calabash
<erikh> we have iOS devs too
<andrewvos> erikh: It's pretty crap
<erikh> it was a pretty big selling point.
<andrewvos> erikh: We're doing ios stuff too
<erikh> you could talk to them about it, I guess
<erikh> I mean, it's kind of one of those things where I don't really have authority or a lot of education on the subject, much less enough to argue it
<andrewvos> Well, the thing with calabash-android is you have to use their step definitions.
<erikh> I think the thing is, if they had the iOS bits.. yeah. I mean they're already talking about contributing back to calabash
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<andrewvos> And I don't like being stuck using cucumber for all things.
<andrewvos> Sometimes tests are better written in a sane testing framework :)
<erikh> neither do I, but we seem to be a minority these days
<erikh> anyhow, the project I'm working on is a testing project
<andrewvos> Oh okay
<andrewvos> Well if you ever need advice, I've been doing that shit for two years now and have learned from a very lot of failures :)
<erikh> mostly could just use some "is this understandable", doubly so if you've never used chef before
<erikh> the theory being if you're completely green and think you could follow along, I can worry less about the advanced users.
<erikh> I'm not working on a testing system, just making minitest DWIFW
<erikh> more accurately, writing the tools to allow minitest to DWIFW
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<erikh> someone could probably write a rspec system for it too
<erikh> or cuke, or whatever.
<erikh> without replacing a lot of code (I think the minitest stuff is around 50 lines atm)
<erikh> anyhow, totally rambling because it's 6am and guess who hasn't had their nap
<erikh> have a good day, I'm going to fake my own death for a few hours.
<andrewvos> nice, good luck with that
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<tsou> erikh: i envy you, it's 15:35 here, and still haven't had mine :|
<shtirlic> what is the correct method of defining hash string keys with new hash syntax?
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<andrewvos> shtirlic: {"hello": "douchebags"}
<andrewvos> I think
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<shtirlic> andrewvos: nope, SyntaxError: (irb):3: syntax error, unexpected ':', expecting tASSOC
<erikh> hello: "douchebags"
<erikh> hello is converted into a symbol
<shtirlic> erikh: hello will be the symbol but I want string as a key
<erikh> then don't use the new hash syntax
<shtirlic> erikh: but with new sytax
<andrewvos> {"well-then" => "do this"}
<shtirlic> that's nice ;)
<erikh> the old syntax is just as good and a lot more portable
<andrewvos> Just use the old syntax.
<andrewvos> Go get shit done
<shtirlic> https://gist.github.com/d5b23df40006006ea587 but it's not looking good ;(
<andrewvos> shtirlic: Line up the =>
<andrewvos> What do you mean it's not looking good? That's beautiful.
<shtirlic> andrewvos: ok, tnx, also checkout the my gem project-health for project stats on github https://github.com/shtirlic/project-health
<shtirlic> also looking for suggestion to the "Health" algorithm based on the repo stats
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<shtirlic> just like PR in google search
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<whitequark> judofyr: http://pastie.org/5423373
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<andrewvos> shtirlic: Cool
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<elux> hey guys.. when having a method that accepts a block, like def hi(&block); ...; end .. that block will be a Proc .. is there a way to make it a lambda?
<andrewvos> wat is difference
<elux> and still call the method like .. hi { ... }
<elux> subtle differences, but ones that are useful to me ..
<elux> lambdas behave more like methods
<andrewvos> elux: What are you trying to do today?
<elux> lol :)
<elux> just a bit of syntax sugar for my dsl ..
<elux> so i can use a return in the block ..
<andrewvos> NOOOO
<elux> which lambda's allow
<andrewvos> NO
<andrewvos> NO
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<elux> not a fan of dsl's? ... theres good reason for them at times
<whitequark> elux: lambda(&block)
<andrewvos> navahh
<andrewvos> nevahh*
<elux> why?
<elux> whitequark: thx ill try it
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<elux> works just fine. thx
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<rickjarr> Hello! I was wondering if anyone has an alternative link or is willing to upload shoes.app for osx cause the website is down
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<judofyr> rickjarr: there are some downloads here, but they're probably out-of-date: https://github.com/shoes/shoes/downloads
<rickjarr> Yeah think they are out of date
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<rickjarr> since I'm here already are there any other easy to use guy tools like shoes that let me develop apps on osx and package them for win?
<rickjarr> gui*
<seanstickle> rickjarr: HTML
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<rickjarr> huh?
<rickjarr> desktop apps :D
<seanstickle> Yeah.
<seanstickle> I write desktop apps using HTML every day.
<andrewvos> guy tools
<rickjarr> and how exactly do you do that?
<seanstickle> App spins up a tiny local web server, and launches the browser to connect to it.
<seanstickle> Easy peasy
<rickjarr> not really portable for sharing
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<andrewvos> rickjarr: Wait till shoesrb.com comes back online?
<rickjarr> yeah probably the best solution
<seanstickle> Quite easy to share, actually.
<seanstickle> Package and deploy.
<andrewvos> rickjarr: @steveklabnik on twitter will probably know when it is coming back online.
<seanstickle> Same as anything else.
<rickjarr> andrewvos: ok thank you gonna try to contact him
<rickjarr> thank you for your help
<rickjarr> gotta go back to work
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<zenspider> corundum: seen imperator?
<corundum> ...eh?
<corundum> imperator was last seen 2 days, 6 hours, 47 minutes and 54 seconds ago, quitting IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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<zzak> corundum: botsnack
<corundum> zzak: schweet!
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<zenspider> huh. he and I are really not crossing paths well
<rue> zenspider: Ping him on twitter
<rue> Oh, wait
<zenspider> heh
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<zenspider> corundum: seen sklabnik?
<corundum> ...eh?
<corundum> sklabnik was last seen 507 days, 3 hours, 32 minutes and 25 seconds ago, leaving #ruby-lang
<zenspider> errr
<zenspider> corundum: seen steveklabnik?
<corundum> beats me
<corundum> steveklabnik was last seen 3 days, 11 hours, 1 minutes and 58 seconds ago, leaving #rubinius
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<zenspider> that seems more reasonable
<banisterfiend> corundum: seen saywatmang?
<corundum> who knows?
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<banisterfiend> lols
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<zenspider> hoe 3.3.1 released
<zenspider> and a rash of other releases coming shortly...
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<zenspider> fucking rake 10 broke my shit
<zenspider> bastard
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<rue> Rake adopted mozilla versioning?
<zenspider> pretty much
<zenspider> he was doing 0.x.y in his mind and switched to x.y.z
<ryanf> guess you can't complain about breaking changes when you upgrade by 9 versions
<zenspider> and despite saying "this is just deprecation removals" it very much isn't.
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<ryanf> actually rails should do that
<zenspider> he changed the semantics of timestamps or something on FileTask.
<zenspider> haha
<ryanf> after rails 4, rails 13
<zenspider> ok. downgraded rake. I'll deal with that later :/
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<zenspider> minitest 4.3.1 released
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<zenspider> omnifocus-github 1.4.0 released
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<zenspider> image_science 1.2.4 released
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<zenspider> ruby_parser 3.0.3 released
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<zenspider> 6 packages updated and released in < 9 minutes
<zenspider> tell me hoe isn't necessary...
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<zenspider> vlad 2.3.0 released...
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<zenspider> rake-remote_task 2.1.0 released
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<zzak> what was the problem?
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<zenspider> zzak: with rake?
<zenspider> it fucked up FileTasks which I use a lot in my blogging system
<zenspider> I'm gonna have to dig into it to figure out what broke
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<zzak> zenspider: why the bulk release tho?
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<whitequark> corundum: seen whitequark?
<corundum> I can't do that Dave.
<corundum> whitequark was last seen just now, saying seen whitequark?
<drbrain> when you add a ? to the end of a line an rbot seems to become confused
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<zzak> corundum: seen drbrain
<corundum> drbrain was last seen 2 minutes and 55 seconds ago, saying when you add a ? to the end of a line an rbot seems to become confused
<zzak> corundum: seen _why
<corundum> _why was last seen 576 days, 10 hours, 1 minutes and 25 seconds ago, changing nick from _why to LadyGagaCandy
<zenspider> zzak: backlog. been on vacation
<zzak> welcome back!
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<zenspider> heh. thanks!
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<zzak> go anywhere out of the ordinary?
<zenspider> absolutely not
<zenspider> mostly just read a couple books
<zenspider> made tea
<zenspider> cooked good food
<zzak> my favorite kind of vacations
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