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<erikh>
memory barriers as part of the GC? ermagherd, seriously guize
<judofyr>
whitequark: nice!
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<banisterfiend>
!seen injekt
<judofyr>
whitequark: does it run Rails yet?
<charliesome>
whitequark: impressive
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<charliesome>
whitequark: do you plan on targeting a vm or emitting native code?
<charliesome>
for stage 2
<judofyr>
charliesome: emitting JS as a first target, then LLVM
<judofyr>
as far as I've heard
<charliesome>
interesting
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<heftig>
erikh: who are you complaining to?
<charliesome>
judofyr: btw, are you a ruby committer? o:
<judofyr>
charliesome: nope
<charliesome>
oh
<erikh>
heftig: eh?
<charliesome>
how come you're part of the github org?
<judofyr>
but I think I have some commits
<heftig>
erikh: 12:16 erikh : memory barriers as part of the GC? ermagherd, seriously guize
<judofyr>
charliesome: did some work on ruby-lang.org refactoring, but nothing really happened
<charliesome>
ahh
<erikh>
heftig: it's a feature of rust
<erikh>
someone pinged me a while back in here about it
<erikh>
just saw it now
<judofyr>
erikh: what do you mean "part of the GC?"
<whitequark>
charliesome: yeah, JS then LLVM
<whitequark>
the ultimate goal is to make Ruby for microcontrollers, not entirely unlike an unhosted variant of MacRuby
<erikh>
judofyr: you can create what's called a shared pointer that holds arbitrary data. threads competing for access to it when automatically enter a synchronized, transaction queue for access to it
<banisterfiend>
whitequark: how does it compare to mruby
<andrewvos>
erikh: Sounds nice
<erikh>
well, write access. I'd have to check the spec again to see if it handles reads differently
<charliesome>
whitequark: you mentioned 'typing blackholes' like arrays, etc in your blog post - how do you plan to handle those?
<erikh>
it is pretty f'n awesome
<heftig>
erikh: well, it does make sense in that the same pointers are subject to GC
<erikh>
heftig: no, it's a feature of the garbage collector
<whitequark>
charliesome: do you know how haskell works with lists?
<charliesome>
detecting which arrays have homogenous types and treating them specially?
<erikh>
heftig: as in, "I don't have to write this crap"
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<erikh>
I just worry about writing to the pointer, and that shit is rust's problem.
<charliesome>
whitequark: also yes
<heftig>
erikh: i'd call it a language feature, not a GC feature. that doesn't make sense
<whitequark>
charliesome: well I construct intermediate lexical arrays in a way which preserves typing information
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<whitequark>
charliesome: so things like multiple assignment and argument parsing works correctly in all cases without losing anything
<erikh>
heftig: wanna bet it's handled in the GC code?
<charliesome>
right but you'd still have to support arrays as typing blackholes as a fallback, right
<whitequark>
charliesome: and for "regular" arrays, i.e. mutable, user-defined ones there would be a way to specify contained types explicitly
<whitequark>
yeah, there will be a fallback for everything
<heftig>
erikh: are you sure you're not calling the shared pointer code the "GC code"?
<erikh>
heftig: ok, let's get our super pedantic pants on.
<charliesome>
whitequark: and you figure out which fallbacks are actually required?
<charliesome>
in the compiler
<whitequark>
charliesome: exactly!
<heftig>
erikh: shared pointers are subject to write synchronization and to GC, and no other language feature uses it
<erikh>
name a garbage collected langauge that handles memory access outside of the garbage collector
<erikh>
not something that end-runs it
<whitequark>
charliesome: e.g. if you do really strange things with a well-defined tuple, it is automatically promoted to an Array
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<charliesome>
whitequark: if you have something like ["a", 1], do you treat it as a generic array or an array with a String first and a Fixnum second?
<whitequark>
charliesome: Tuple<String, Integer>
<heftig>
erikh: ah, i think i understand how you're looking at things
<heftig>
erikh: never mind
<erikh>
all memory access goes through the GC subsystem
<charliesome>
whitequark: then if you called shuffle on it, it'd become a generic array?
<charliesome>
erikh: C#?
<erikh>
whether or not it's collecting garbage as it's current task is a separate matter
<erikh>
charliesome: rust
<charliesome>
no but you asked for other languages which let you avoid the gc for memory access
<erikh>
charliesome: no, I asked for languages which do memory access outside of the GC but are still subject to its rules
<erikh>
D is/was a really great idea, and they had a quasi spec, so people started building a ton of stuff for it
<erikh>
and a compiler! that too.
<erikh>
then, they just started adding shit
<erikh>
and soon the stdlib split in two
<erikh>
and then they had like 3 compilers that all supported different versions of D
<erikh>
kind of frustrating.
<erikh>
the language has a lot of good ideas baked into it
<judofyr>
the only thing I'm really satisfied with with my little language is the name: https://github.com/judofyr/0
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<judofyr>
s/with/in/
<judofyr>
zero
<erikh>
is that like whitespace without the pesky whitespace characters?
<judofyr>
erikh: nah, it's actually a proper language. I'm just at the parser/syntax/semantics-stage though
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<erikh>
cool
<judofyr>
erikh: aiming for the same approach as whitequark: interpreter + compiler
<erikh>
neat
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<judofyr>
but yeah, stuck at semantics
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<erikh>
yeah, language design seems like a fussy topic
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<yxhuvud>
it is so much easier to see what is wrong than how to do things right
<erikh>
that's true for just about everything though
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<erikh>
if you want a great example, see james golick's "I found a bug in ruby! Praise me because I am totally smarter than everyone on the MRI core team" post recently
<apeiros_>
erikh: got a link?
<erikh>
I'll have to dig it up, sec.
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<apeiros_>
erikh: hm? but that's about GC, not about finding a bug and being snub about it - or am I missing something? o'
<apeiros_>
o0
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<erikh>
there's a bug there, well, sort of
<erikh>
it's a memory leak
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<erikh>
it's the attitude that's bullshit, not the fix
<apeiros_>
ah, golick's in this case?
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<erikh>
yes
<apeiros_>
I expected an article about such behavior :) I understand now
<charliesome>
poor nobu was upset by it too
<apeiros_>
erikh: thanks for the link :)
<erikh>
aye
<charliesome>
oops
<charliesome>
nari
<erikh>
well, it's like, this guy comes along, finds a bug, and instead of posting it (and a potential fix) to the tracker, he shits on everyone that spends all day fixing bugs just like his
<erikh>
some of these people have been doing this for 10 years or more. where the fuck does he get off?
<erikh>
I just wish we wouldn't reward this behavior.
<apeiros_>
didn't even seem like a bug to me
<apeiros_>
rather like intentional behavior
<charliesome>
not to mention improving MRI's gc while keeping compatibility with all these c extensions and swaths of core code is not easy
<apeiros_>
at least that ever increasing array
<erikh>
apeiros_: yeah, I can't say for sure if it was intentional or not
<erikh>
either way, this is not how you solve problems.
<apeiros_>
I'd be upset if a reporting tool would throw away information without my consent…
<charliesome>
the complaint about gc_profile_total_time is valid though
<erikh>
again, this is totally not about the bug itself (at least for me)
<charliesome>
yeah
<apeiros_>
erikh: I understood
<charliesome>
totally understand
<erikh>
I mean, headius wrote a post a few days back about refinements and how he was concerned about their implementation impact
<apeiros_>
but the fact that it probably isn't even a bug makes the whole thing even worse :)
<erikh>
he was polite, examined the issues, didn't sling a single drop of mud
<erikh>
doin' it right
<apeiros_>
mhm
* apeiros_
thinks headius is an awesome "asset" of the ruby community (dang, sounds bad, how'd you say that in a nice way? o0)
<banisterfiend>
erikh: i remember when he used to be a jolly plump chap, now he dresses alternative and talks like a wigger, what happened
<rolfb>
"contributor to the ruby community" ?
<judofyr>
and now he's maybe even solved the performance problem of refinements too!
<apeiros_>
rolfb: I think he's more than just a contributor
<apeiros_>
but yeah
<charliesome>
judofyr: what's this solution i keep hearing mentions of?
<apeiros_>
that sounds already better than "asset" (which sounds so objectifying :-S)
<judofyr>
"I admit I am a bit reluctant to suggest this, because I still have concerns about the feature itself. But it would be possible for call sites to only need a reference to their calling scope (determined at parse time) to implement dynamic refinements without severe impact to normal code."
<rolfb>
apeiros_: "beacon for the ruby community" ?
<rolfb>
:P
<apeiros_>
:D
<yxhuvud>
he brings the bacon.
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<charliesome>
judofyr: still seems like you'd need to inspect every refinement that is in effect at that point
<charliesome>
it also complicates behaviour inside #refine's block
<erikh>
apeiros_: asset is a good term. having people around that are willing to object in constructive ways is a win.
<apeiros_>
erikh: don't know, it just sounds like objectifying a person, which is not my intention
<apeiros_>
erikh: but glad it's not entirely off :)
<erikh>
I don't see it that way
<erikh>
but I can see why someone might think that.
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<yxhuvud>
erikh: strange. I read that article and didn't notice anything bad. it may be that I'm jaded due to *very* harsh code inspects at the company I work for, but really - the only way someone could be offended by that is by equalizing complaints against code behaviour to complaints against self.
<yxhuvud>
I saw no complaints against people in there - only against behaviour of code.
<erikh>
he found a bug
<erikh>
he used it as a platform to slam MRI's code
<erikh>
go look at the ruby-lang tracker. this is no different than around 10,000 other incidents
<erikh>
fix the fucking bug and move on, don't make a gigantic stink about it
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<yxhuvud>
we obviously have different standards for what a gigantic stink looks like unless there is more to it than that blog post.
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<erikh>
I pray you never have to maintain something that ever has design decisions you regret later and gets popular.
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<judofyr>
erikh: what article are we talking about?
<yxhuvud>
I have no problem with people swearing about bugs in code I write.
<charliesome>
judofyr: james golick
<judofyr>
oh right
<judofyr>
GC::Profile?
<charliesome>
yep
<yxhuvud>
or well, I take it as an incentive to fix it but nothing personal.
<erikh>
him acting like a jackass has absolutely nothing to do with how you deal with him acting like a jackass
<erikh>
I'm just saying that it's depressing that we reward this behavior
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<whitequark>
erikh: where do we reward that?
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<erikh>
hacker news is like a guidebook on how to act that way
<erikh>
and a lot of twitter too
<erikh>
anyhow, wondering if anyone else types 'git push origin maser' as much as I accidentally do
<erikh>
aaaaand of course now I check if zsh completes it and it does
<erikh>
only been using it for like 6 years now
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<erikh>
this project, not even release ready yet, but someone elsewhere asked about tools that solve this problem so I told them to give it a shot, letting them know it wasn't ready
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<erikh>
yesterday, I got an email with "this is awesome!" and some small bug reports
<erikh>
I mean, 1/3 of the project isn't even on rubygems.org yet
<andrewvos>
Someday I hope to have a project that gets popular. An entirely non-troll project.
<erikh>
haha
<erikh>
I really liked what you were doing with cukes and android
<yxhuvud>
do you have popular troll-projects?
<andrewvos>
Yeah, will get to use that in anger soon
<erikh>
the android guys at work went with another project though
<andrewvos>
yxhuvud: Not really
<andrewvos>
erikh: calabash-android?
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<erikh>
yeah, calabash
<erikh>
we have iOS devs too
<andrewvos>
erikh: It's pretty crap
<erikh>
it was a pretty big selling point.
<andrewvos>
erikh: We're doing ios stuff too
<erikh>
you could talk to them about it, I guess
<erikh>
I mean, it's kind of one of those things where I don't really have authority or a lot of education on the subject, much less enough to argue it
<andrewvos>
Well, the thing with calabash-android is you have to use their step definitions.
<erikh>
I think the thing is, if they had the iOS bits.. yeah. I mean they're already talking about contributing back to calabash
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<andrewvos>
And I don't like being stuck using cucumber for all things.
<andrewvos>
Sometimes tests are better written in a sane testing framework :)
<erikh>
neither do I, but we seem to be a minority these days
<erikh>
anyhow, the project I'm working on is a testing project
<andrewvos>
Oh okay
<andrewvos>
Well if you ever need advice, I've been doing that shit for two years now and have learned from a very lot of failures :)
<erikh>
mostly could just use some "is this understandable", doubly so if you've never used chef before
<erikh>
the theory being if you're completely green and think you could follow along, I can worry less about the advanced users.
<erikh>
I'm not working on a testing system, just making minitest DWIFW
<erikh>
more accurately, writing the tools to allow minitest to DWIFW
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<erikh>
someone could probably write a rspec system for it too
<erikh>
or cuke, or whatever.
<erikh>
without replacing a lot of code (I think the minitest stuff is around 50 lines atm)
<erikh>
anyhow, totally rambling because it's 6am and guess who hasn't had their nap
<erikh>
have a good day, I'm going to fake my own death for a few hours.
<andrewvos>
nice, good luck with that
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<tsou>
erikh: i envy you, it's 15:35 here, and still haven't had mine :|
<shtirlic>
what is the correct method of defining hash string keys with new hash syntax?
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<elux>
hey guys.. when having a method that accepts a block, like def hi(&block); ...; end .. that block will be a Proc .. is there a way to make it a lambda?
<andrewvos>
wat is difference
<elux>
and still call the method like .. hi { ... }
<elux>
subtle differences, but ones that are useful to me ..
<elux>
lambdas behave more like methods
<andrewvos>
elux: What are you trying to do today?
<elux>
lol :)
<elux>
just a bit of syntax sugar for my dsl ..
<elux>
so i can use a return in the block ..
<andrewvos>
NOOOO
<elux>
which lambda's allow
<andrewvos>
NO
<andrewvos>
NO
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<elux>
not a fan of dsl's? ... theres good reason for them at times
<whitequark>
elux: lambda(&block)
<andrewvos>
navahh
<andrewvos>
nevahh*
<elux>
why?
<elux>
whitequark: thx ill try it
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<elux>
works just fine. thx
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<zenspider>
corundum: seen imperator?
<corundum>
...eh?
<corundum>
imperator was last seen 2 days, 6 hours, 47 minutes and 54 seconds ago, quitting IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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<zzak>
corundum: botsnack
<corundum>
zzak: schweet!
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<zenspider>
huh. he and I are really not crossing paths well
<rue>
zenspider: Ping him on twitter
<rue>
Oh, wait
<zenspider>
heh
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<zenspider>
corundum: seen sklabnik?
<corundum>
...eh?
<corundum>
sklabnik was last seen 507 days, 3 hours, 32 minutes and 25 seconds ago, leaving #ruby-lang
<zenspider>
errr
<zenspider>
corundum: seen steveklabnik?
<corundum>
beats me
<corundum>
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<zenspider>
that seems more reasonable
<banisterfiend>
corundum: seen saywatmang?
<corundum>
who knows?
<corundum>
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<banisterfiend>
lols
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<zenspider>
hoe 3.3.1 released
<zenspider>
and a rash of other releases coming shortly...
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<zenspider>
fucking rake 10 broke my shit
<zenspider>
bastard
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<rue>
Rake adopted mozilla versioning?
<zenspider>
pretty much
<zenspider>
he was doing 0.x.y in his mind and switched to x.y.z
<ryanf>
guess you can't complain about breaking changes when you upgrade by 9 versions
<zenspider>
and despite saying "this is just deprecation removals" it very much isn't.
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<ryanf>
actually rails should do that
<zenspider>
he changed the semantics of timestamps or something on FileTask.
<zenspider>
haha
<ryanf>
after rails 4, rails 13
<zenspider>
ok. downgraded rake. I'll deal with that later :/
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<zenspider>
minitest 4.3.1 released
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<zenspider>
omnifocus-github 1.4.0 released
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<zenspider>
image_science 1.2.4 released
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<zenspider>
ruby_parser 3.0.3 released
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<zenspider>
6 packages updated and released in < 9 minutes