ChanServ changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 1.9.3-p125: http://ruby-lang.org | Paste >3 lines of text on http://pastie.org or use a gist
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<zenspider> argh... why is it Exception#set_backtrace and not #backtrace= ?!?
<zenspider> that bites me EVERY TIME
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<erikh> class Exception; alias backtrace= set_backtrace; end
<erikh> you're welcome
<erikh> :P
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<freedrull> trying to refactor some big classes, and i feel like i'm running into the same problem i always do...i end up passing a lot of objects around as arguments to methods, and this just doesn't feel much cleaner to me... :\
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<rking> tpope: Hi. Do you want to chat for a bit about pry-editline ?
<rking> I can put it in the form of a Github issue if you prefer.
<tpope> you can ask me here
<rking> OK
<rking> tpope: Have you by any chance seen the Github pry addition of the Bond gem?
<tpope> no
<rking> Long story short is that it alters the completion code a bit in a way incompatible with pry-editline.
<rking> It falls back to the old code if you don't have the bond gem installed, so perhaps editline is working in that case still, but the goal is to use bond (it's smarter, e.g. having cool contexts, like require 'x<tab> and my_hash[:<tab><tab> )
<rking> But in general, as you demonstrated with the slaughter* in pry-editline, Readline isn't very extensible.
<rking> * like a hack but exponentiated
<rking> So I was thinking it'd be great to make pry-editline capable of being extended. My #1 goal would be to get F8, etc, into pry-debugger so you can step/next/continue like classical F8, etc debugger bindings.
<rking> (And I know you can do the `$if Ruby` thing, but having people paste around snippets isn't super)
<tpope> sounds like you're asking two different things?
<rking> Yep.
<rking> 1 being getting it working with Bond (which I can tinker with on my end), but 2 being some kind of extensibility (which I need your thoughts on)
<tpope> yes, please tinker
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<rking> K.
<tpope> I'm not absolutely opposed to extensibility, but it seems like it might just be easier to make a separate gem
<tpope> I mean, the technique I used should daisy chain
<rking> Hehe, and 3rd thing — did you get a chance to look at the 1:1 mapping between implementation and test files for vim-rails ?
<rking> Will it?
<rking> I was thinking it wouldn't…
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<tpope> rking: tbh, I got annoyed with the unicode in the commit message, and decided to wait till I got home to see what it looked like in my linux terminal
<tpope> so I could decide if I was principally opposed or practically opposed
<tpope> rking: I override ENV['INPUTRC'] and $include the original value inside my generated one
<rking> Interesting. I do like Unicode, so if you can explain how it was a negative, I'd like to know.
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<tpope> you could do the same, and no matter which order they load, it should work
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<rking> So perhaps we could extract hijack_inputrc_with and then make hijack_inputrc pass its current here-doc to that?
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<tpope> rking: yeah, or just copy and paste the darn thing
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<rking> =~(
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<tpope> rking: it has an extremely low rate of change, man
<tpope> like, I wrote it once and have never had to tweak it
<rking> Actually, there is a some turbulence in the vicinity of the input design, basically they're going to decouple R and P from the E and L of REPL.
<rking> But yeah, I mostly only want it for pry-debugger's F-keys, anyway.
<tpope> even so, all hijack_inputrc does is change an environment variable an write a tempfile
<rking> Yeah, k.
<tpope> rking: I oftentimes use commit messages verbatim in the changelog on vim.org. and vim.org is iso-8859-1 (yes really)
<tpope> that's my pragmatic reason
<rking> Aha. Thanks for explaining.
<rking> I'll redo the pull req if you want.
<tpope> squash and force push
<tpope> and let me know
<rking> OK
<rking> tpope: BTW the core thing that I'm unsure about with the pull req is which filename gets the "pole position" — only one shows up in the error message when you :A an implementation file without a test file.
<rking> And I put the 1:1 one in that spot‚ because it's my preference, but I can go with the other one just as easily, if you like.
<rking> Though probably better would be to show the whole list.
<rking> Which I can also do if you like.
<tpope> rking: historically it's been the first file
<tpope> which I'm fine with. I don't want some super long message that triggers a "press enter" prompt
<rking> Actually, I was wondering what you thought about making an option to auto-vivify. Even :A! or something.
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<tpope> rking: you can with the commands like :Runittest foo!
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<rking> Aha. Thanks.
<tpope> rking: I didn't want to use :A! because that looks like forcefully discarding changes
<tpope> and ":A !" just looks ridiculous
<tpope> so I never did it for :A
<rking> Works for me.
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<kentos> I'd like to use a gem on my shared webhost, but I'm having trouble installing it due to permissions. Does anyone know how to use bundler to run something like $ ruby server.rb
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<rking> kentos: You mean?: bundle exec ruby server.rb
<kentos> oohhh... 1 sec let me try that
<kentos> I left out the 'ruby' word
<rking> You could get that if you put the bangpath at the top ( #!/usr/bin/env ruby ) and chmod +x server.rb
<rking> Then it'd be: bundle exec ./server.rb
<kentos> kk, I think that fixed it, I've got the next bug in the series to sort out now =D
<kentos> I'm doing a chat app for my rails application using http://faye.jcoglan.com/ruby/clients.html btw
<kentos> it's kinda exciting, been doing mostly frontend stuff for a while now
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<rking> kentos: Sounds like fun. ☺
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<kentos> It is fun, it's been a pain figuring out deployment, but now that that's over with it should all be fun stuff ahead. Here's a demo app link for anybody who's interested. https://github.com/TheNotary/jcoglan
<kentos> i'll be watching old school Dr. Who for a while so send me a msg if I've left something out and you can't get it to function
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<Harzilein> is there some "backdoor" in bundler that'd allow for loading arbitrary gems? our team has some problems agreeing which development gems are necessary for our product and one solution would be to allow them to use any debuggin tool they deem necessary
<Harzilein> debugging*
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<rking> Harzilein: Huge pain
<rking> Harzilein: Do you know how pry-debundler works?
<rking> Harzilein: First of all, what would be wrong with the superset?
<rking> E.g. one guy wants to use pry-debugger, another guy the stock debugger, it all goes in the same group :development, no big deal.
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<rking> One solution I've heard (but not yet needed) is that you 'git stash' your debug gems, then apply them + 'bundle install' each time.
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<burgestrand> How can I specify in my gemspec that it’s available for either darwin (mac os), linux 32bit or linux 64bit? I’ve released my gem with "universal-darwin" for Mac OS now, but JRuby does not pick it up and install the pure-ruby version.
<burgestrand> (also have gem with platforms i686-linux and x86_64-linux released)
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<steveklabnik> burgestrand: precompile a binary gem for those platforms, just ruby for the rest?
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<burgestrand> steveklabnik: the only ruby code in the gem is a path to a binary, which is specific to darwin, linux 32bit and linux 64bit — I have a pure ruby version, but it does not bundle the binary, so that I can still depend on it on platforms I do not yet support, but still allow people using those platforms to install the binary manually and use it that way.
<burgestrand> steveklabnik: this is the gem, for reference: https://github.com/Burgestrand/libspotify
<freedrull> anyone ever tried to use eventmachine with ruby-processing?
<burgestrand> It’s really just a convenience gem, and you could do without it, I was just surprised "universal-darwin" platform didn’t install on jruby, but did on MRI.
<steveklabnik> hmmmmmm
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<steveklabnik> yeah, i'm pretty sure that jruby is a separate platfor
<steveklabnik> m
<burgestrand> So in summary: install this gem platform on any mac os, this gem platform on any linux 32bit, and this gem platform on any linux 64bit; no matter if you use ironruby, macruby, ruby motion, mri, jruby or what have you.
<burgestrand> Yeah, the Gem.platforms is just ["ruby", "universal-java-1.6"], substituting the OS for "java". Perhaps that’s in the spirit of being platform independent.
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<steveklabnik> ^^^^^
<steveklabnik> yeah, i dont think that you can do that
<steveklabnik> i think that java is treated as an 'os
<burgestrand> Scouring the same file for clues, but yeah it looks very much like it. :(
<steveklabnik> i'm guessing this correlates very closelt yo the actual rubygems ones
<steveklabnik> even though it's bundeler
<burgestrand> I could possibly depend on arch alone; if not I’ll just let jruby users install the binary themselves, given they’re probably used to being special-cased in other circumstances this shouldn’t be too much of a hassle.
<burgestrand> steveklabnik: thanks for the discussion, I have to be off now.
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<steveklabnik> peace!
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<rking> I need a mnemonic or cheat sheet to help me know which methods are Engrish (#include? #respond_to?) and which are English (most of the others)
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<freedrull> what
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<rking> [1,2,3].include? 2 # ☒ Not English
<rking> obj.respond_to? :foo # ☒ Not English
<rking> I'm amazed that no one has patched in aliases with 's's.
<oddmunds> #incrude
<oddmunds> #lespond_to
<freedrull> included?
<freedrull> responded_to?
<freedrull> i'm amazed there are not past tense versions either
<steveklabnik> yes, let's add more methods on object
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<steveklabnik> sounds great
<maek> if I have a .gem file locally on disk how can I install that please?
<freedrull> gem install mygem.gem
<yorickpeterse> Morning
<zzak> require 'English'
<maek> freedrull: derp. ty :)
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<andrewvos> Morning internets
<andrewvos> MORNING
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<ddfreyne> GREETINGS
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<andrewvos> ddfreyne: hi
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<yorickpeterse> HELLO
<andrewvos> yorickpeterse: HI GOOD MORNING SIR
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<yorickpeterse> I'M ALLRIGHT, THANK YOU FINE LAD. HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY?
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<gnufied> LOL
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<andrewvos> NEVER BETTER. ABOUT TO PLAY WITH SOME XML THIS MORING, WHICH ALWAYS LIFTS MY SPIRITS.
<Gekz> what
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<andrewvos> Gekz: NOTHING BETTER THAN SOME WELL FORMATTED XML.
<Gekz> sexual intercourse?
<andrewvos> Gekz: NOTHING.
<workmad3> andrewvos: this XML, is it lifting your spirits to the top of a tall building, and moving your spirits closer and closer to the edge?
<andrewvos> workmad3: I think a fairly short building will do.
<yorickpeterse> WHAT'S WRONG WITH SOME <ELEMENT NAME="JOKE"><ATTRIBUTE NAME="FUNNY" VALUE="TRUE" /></ELEMENT> ?
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<andrewvos> I wonder if there is a #xml channel. Can you imagine how depressing it would be?
<oddmunds> haha
<andrewvos> I'm in there now
<andrewvos> A few people
<oddmunds> me too
<andrewvos> Maybe I should paste invalid xml in there and ask them what's wrong with it?
<oddmunds> Channel #xml: 38 nicks (1 op, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 37 normals)
<andrewvos> guys whts wrong wif this code <xml><data value="hello"></dta></xml>
<oddmunds> <xml><data vlaue="hello"></xml></data>
<andrewvos> haha
<oddmunds> andrewvos: ever had the pleasure of working with aspx?
<andrewvos> oddmunds: OH YES! LOVE IT. LOVE. IT.
<andrewvos> oddmunds: View State is the best thing ever invented.
<oddmunds> i was thinking more about the aspx format which looks suspiciously like xml, but is not
<oddmunds> *sigh*
<oddmunds> at least we don't use viewstate here at work
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<Gekz> VIEWSTATE
<Gekz> FUCK
<Gekz> DIE
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<Gekz> aijdasoijdaso
<Gekz> I had to scrape an ASPX site
<oddmunds> haha
<Gekz> POST -> 302 -> GET for a damn link
<Gekz> every
<Gekz> single
<Gekz> link
<Gekz> 209000 records.
<Gekz> 72 hours of really poorly written ruby code doing it's best.
<yorickpeterse> I always like inspecting pages written in aspx
<yorickpeterse> input type="hidden" value="lolwtflotsofcrapinhere"
<oddmunds> also the lolwtf grows and grows and grows over your session
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<Gekz> the POSTs were 100kb
<Gekz> I uploaded over 4GB scraping 209,000 records
<Gekz> WHAT THE HELL.
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<andrewvos> haha
<andrewvos> Memories of viewstate over a few mb coming back to me.
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<andrewvos> "It's okay because it's not public"
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<andrewvos> By "not public" I mean intranet.
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<oddmunds> i've just started working with c#/.net/aspx (with no prior exposure to programming iwth microsoft) and this resonates with me http://openmymind.net/2010/8/30/How-I-would-fix-ASP-NET/
<Gekz> so why does viewstate even exist when no other framework ever has needed it
<andrewvos> oddmunds: IF that page doesn't just show a picture of a burning house, I don't want to read it.
<andrewvos> Gekz: Because Windows Forms.
<Gekz> I don't even know what that is
<andrewvos> Gekz: They wanted to make it easy for Windows Forms developers to move into the future of web.
<Gekz> which is probably a good thing
<Gekz> andrewvos: oh god.
<andrewvos> Gekz: It's for making desktop applications in Windows under .NET.
<andrewvos> Gekz: They wanted to make the web not stateless.
<Gekz> there are better ways, obviously
<Gekz> it's called a sessionid.
<Gekz> and server-side caching of data.
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<Gekz> so given we're talking about scraping and ASP.net and I'm using ruby, here's the site I'm scraping: http://www.classification.gov.au
<Gekz> it's epic slow, so I tried rewriting my scraper to be concurrent using Typhoeus
<Gekz> it's still not much faster, but I'm sure that's because I'm doing it wrong.g
<andrewvos> Gekz: What are you scraping?
<Gekz> basically, do a search from 1970 to now, order by oldest, then from that first result page, queue up the getting of the other 9 pages available, then queue the 20 results in each of those pages, then scrape the "11th" page and repeat the process.
<Gekz> andrewvos: the entire classification database.
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<oddmunds> Gekz: maybe you are being throttled?
<andrewvos> Gekz: Maybe contact them and ask for the data :)
<Gekz> andrewvos: I did. And I freedom of information requested it. They want to charge me $4000 to run SELECT * from CLASSIFICATIONS;
<Gekz> invert cases somewhere.
<Gekz> oddmunds: nah, I'm not being throttled. My router died from having too many concurrent connections a few times though.
<Gekz> and it's a Cisco 837 >_>
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<oddmunds> doesn't sound like FREEdom
<Gekz> nope
<Gekz> government here is trying to impede FOI requests even further.
<oddmunds> more like holding information hostage
<Gekz> apparently it's burdensome.
<Gekz> they don't understand the definition of data access
<Gekz> or public information.
<Gekz> nesting on_complete was fun.
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<soahccc> Anyone uses Sublime Text and has a working do-end snippet? The one from TM does not work
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<whitequark> probably too old or trying to be too clever
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<whitequark> oh sorry, wrong channel
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: how's the melbourne patch coming along?
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: I basically ditched it in favor of RP
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<yorickpeterse> oh?
<yorickpeterse> How come
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: well, zenspider is quite responsive in fixing bugs, and he solved my main issue
<whitequark> with the NODE_CALL/NODE_VCALL
<whitequark> and it is actually very good for me to not use any C libs
<whitequark> especially for parsing
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<yorickpeterse> How much slower is it?
<whitequark> it's 2x slower than MRI
<yorickpeterse> hrmpf
<whitequark> and Melbourne is basically MRI parser with a different frontend
<yorickpeterse> If I ever want rlint to support non MRI I need something that works on those systems, but I don't want it to be slow as fuck
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: https://github.com/seattlerb/ruby_parser => FEATURES/PROBLEMS
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<whitequark> 2x slowdown is very good for a pure-ruby lib IMO
<whitequark> I expected it to be an order of magnitude worse or so
<yorickpeterse> hmm
<yorickpeterse> it would also be nice if there was some parser that stored not just the starting line number but also the ending line number
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<yorickpeterse> That info would be quite interesting for analysis
<yorickpeterse> Does Rubyparser have a callback system similar to Ripper? (if this is in the docs somewhere feel free to point me to it)
<whitequark> yorickpeterse: use jrubyparser then
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<whitequark> afaik no other parser can perform roundtripping or report anything more meaningful at all
<whitequark> (than a single line number
<yorickpeterse> Well, I'm not entirely sure if I eventually want to use a different parser for each implementation. Then again I doubt I have much of a choice when I start working on that
<yorickpeterse> hmm
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<yorickpeterse> What annoys me most about Ripper is that for certain nodes the line number is set to the line number of the last line of code
<yorickpeterse> Instead of the start
<whitequark> yorickpeterse: I've posted that link for a reason
<whitequark> jrubyparser works on every implementation with C exts
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<whitequark> it's not jruby-parser, but rather java-rubyparser.
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<yorickpeterse> hmm
<yorickpeterse> But that would require Java/jruby, no?
<yorickpeterse> Which is annoying for those who'd only write MRI code. Blegh
<yorickpeterse> This isn't an issue for the near future since I'll be sticking with Ripper for the time being, but it is something I want to address in the future
<whitequark> java yes
<whitequark> jruby no
<whitequark> it's basically reverse JNI
<yorickpeterse> hm
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<yorickpeterse> In that case I'd say RubyParser would be best. It has the least deps and probably the smallest time required for fixing issues.
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<yorickpeterse> My main issue is that I want it to be stupid simple to get my linter running (once it works of course), without having to install Java, compile C extensions, yadya
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<yorickpeterse> Anyway, I'm heading home
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<freedrull> morning
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<zzak> hi
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<chris2> erm, what was the trick to force a recoding from (invalid) utf-8 to utf-8?
<zzak> chris2: String#force_encoding("UTF-8")
<chris2> that does not check anything
<zzak> then String#encode("UTF-8")
<chris2> but the string is read as UTF-8 already so this doesnt do anything
<chris2> .encode("UTF-16", :invalid => :replace, :replace =
<chris2> > "?").encode("UTF-8")
<chris2> ah well
<rue|w> Dat work?
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<zzak> try the bang version
<zzak> that always helps
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<chris2> nope
<bpuzzled> chris2: some_str.unpack('C*').pack('U*')
<chris2> x = "\xe9".force_encoding("UTF-8"); x.encode!("UTF-8", :invalid => :replace, :replace => ''); x.tr('_', ' ')
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<chris2> i want :replace
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<chris2> i hate encodings
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<bpuzzled> +1
<chris2> its also great that iconv knew a lot more encoding names
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<freedrull> trying to run em-twitter inside another thread
<freedrull> uhhhhhhh
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<mfn> encodings suck. just recently learning about unicodes composed/decomposed forms .. argl. As if things wouldn't be already complex ...
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<heftig> mfn: that's what normalization is for
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<chris2> thats what 6 schemes of normalization are for
<heftig> chris2: i count 4
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<chris2> ah right
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<seydar> Mon_Ouie: ping
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<zzak> drbrain: ping, feelin better?
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<zzak> whats the deal with manpages?
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<erikh> they love to bite roff more than they can chew
<erikh> sorry that one is so bad, I worked hard to find a way to fit roff into a pun
<zzak> whats roff
<erikh> it's what makes manpages go
<zzak> erikh: youve got a ping on redmine btw
<erikh> oh I do?
<erikh> I'll try to look at it this weekend
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<erikh> sorry, just been waaay too busy with a project that has a lot of pressure to get out the door.
<erikh> I never get email from redmine
<zzak> #6653
<erikh> makes it hard to keep track
<zzak> segv you reported
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<zzak> its good, just thought you might have missed it
<zzak> the list has been super busy preparing for the code freeze
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<zenspider> rawr
<zzak> hi ryan
<zenspider> hey
<zzak> whats new?
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<zenspider> zzak: not too much. finally got a lot of rubyparser + minitest stuff off my plate at rubyconf
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<apeiros_> poor zenspider, as soon as rubyparser is 1.9 ready, they go on and release 2.0 :D
<zenspider> fuck 2.0
<zenspider> horrible
<zzak> best documented release evar imo
<zzak> ;)
<firefux> zzak: the API?
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<zzak> firefux: the whole shebang
<firefux> are there any release dates for mruby?
<apeiros_> zenspider: I haven't paid much attention to 2.0, I think beyond refinements and Module#prepend I know next to nothing about it
<zzak> firefux: bug reports welcome
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<apeiros_> what's so horrible about it?
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<firefux> zzak: yeah, I'm going to try to embedded it in a open source project, see how it goes, they currently use lua
<zenspider> apeiros_: refinements are not well thought out at all... when they announced it I asked what sort of support they were going to add to debugging, metaprogramming, and backtraces so you could tell where a refinement was coming from and they gave me a blank stare
<zzak> i wonder if flonum is gonna make it
<zenspider> we do NOT need this type of complication
<apeiros_> :-/
<zzak> refinements have been available as patch for a year or more
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<zzak> and committed a while back, just for experiment
<zenspider> I may just become an mruby coder
<zenspider> zzak: and?
<zzak> but too few people were helping improve it
<zzak> im just now seeing tickets on it
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<zzak> it could still be reverted by release
<zenspider> I highly doubt it will be
<zenspider> and I expect it to be a clusterfuck once the railz0rs jump all over it.
<yorickpeterse> clearly the best way to resolve issues like this is to use something else :>
<zenspider> because if it is new... they need to use it
<zenspider> I'm tempted to fork ruby 1.9, make utf-8 the only option, and see how it feels
<apeiros_> using it isn't the bad part
<apeiros_> they'll use it for all sorts of things where it is the utterly wrong tool…
<zenspider> not that I want to deal with that C code... :/
<zenspider> apeiros_: I said "railz0r", right? that was implied :P
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<apeiros_> hah
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<zzak> zenspider: you're right to a certain degree
<zzak> but given the amount of metaprogramming already included in rails, refinements would make sense throughout
<zzak> an all utf-8 ruby would be neat, i think there's a ticket already to convert most of the source files
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<zenspider> zzak: no, I mean do not allow other encodings. convert on in/out, utf8 throughout internally tho
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<steveklabnik> lolrefinements
<zenspider> and refinements won't do anything to address the metaprogramming in rails (or otherwise). that just doesn't even make sense. all it does is address the ... globalness(?) of monkeypatching ... not a good word for that
<workmad3> it allows for the containment of monkeypatching
<zenspider> containment... that's better :P
<workmad3> contained monkeys are safer than unrestricted monkeys
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<ddd> zenspider: i've never heard you speak out against Metaprogramming in ruby. Might I ask what you see wrong with it? (Not starting an argument, truly just wondering)
<ddd> or are you specifically speaking the way rails does it?
<steveklabnik> contained monkeys impose a global performance loss
<steveklabnik> even if you dont contain your monkeys
<steveklabnik> n00bs will still not contain monkeys
<steveklabnik> it's such a terrible feature
<ddd> can n00bs define a monkey? :)
<zzak> planet of the apes?
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<Spaceghostc2c> Personally, I'm more happy with the named parameters.
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<andrewvos> Yeah fuck refinements. Don't need that shit ever.
<andrewvos> And if you do, then you're part of the problem.
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<apeiros_> :(
<apeiros_> I love the idea of refinements, especially on core classes
<steveklabnik> booooo
<steveklabnik> you're a bad person
<steveklabnik> and you should feel bad
<apeiros_> there's so many things that feel utterly wrong in other places
<steveklabnik> :p
<chris2> i like the idea of not fucking touching core classes
<apeiros_> some_string.format_phone_number
<apeiros_> I don't want to add that to String
<apeiros_> I don't want to extend individual objects
<apeiros_> and I don't want PhoneNumberFormatter.new(some_string).to_s
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<chris2> you want a phone number class
<apeiros_> no I don't
<steveklabnik> ^^^^^^^^^
<steveklabnik> yes, you do
<apeiros_> no, totally not
<steveklabnik> l2design
<chris2> or a plain module function
<apeiros_> a module function is not really better than PhoneNumberFormatter.new(some_string).to_s
<chris2> yes it is
<apeiros_> no, module functions are giving up a core aspect of OO - self
<chris2> low overhead, and its really a function
<apeiros_> it's really ugly
<steveklabnik> module functions are bad
<chris2> if you want self, make a phone number class
<chris2> oo sucks anyway
<apeiros_> and that's stupid, as I need only 1 functionality, the formatting
<apeiros_> that's javaism going through a full class just to get a single method
<chris2> one functionality, one function
<chris2> whats the deal
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<apeiros_> one functionality, one context, one refinement
<chris2> it certainly doesnt belong into string class
<apeiros_> it doesn't *yet*
<apeiros_> because being global, it's more pollution than anything
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<apeiros_> but with something like refinements, it makes perfect sense in String
<chris2> i dont know the current variant of these
<chris2> are they lexical?
<apeiros_> otherwise you're going on a limb to argue that most methods currently in string don't really belong into string
<apeiros_> why not have an UpperCasing class?
<apeiros_> why not have a Gsubbing class?
<chris2> because uppercase and substitution is stuff you do with a string
<chris2> regarding it as phone number isnt
<steveklabnik> ^^^^^
<apeiros_> oh, and guess what, so is formatting
<steveklabnik> right
<steveklabnik> hence strf
<steveklabnik> etc
<steveklabnik> but not 'as a phone number'
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<apeiros_> but as an integer, yes?
<apeiros_> sorry, but that's silly borders you're drawing there…
<steveklabnik> do what you want
<chris2> i could argue about String#to_phone_number
<steveklabnik> but refinements make me pay a cost
<steveklabnik> for your poor design
<steveklabnik> therefore, they're bad.
<steveklabnik> COMMUNISM
<steveklabnik> EVERYONE LOSES
<steveklabnik> ;)
<apeiros_> boilerplate is a cost of its own too
<apeiros_> and not having boilerplate is the reason we chose ruby
<apeiros_> everything is a tradeoff
<chris2> you can even subclass string ffs :P
<steveklabnik> that's an even worse idea
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<apeiros_> chris2: anyway, think again about it
<apeiros_> what's so substantially different from knowing how to transform a lower case to an upper case
<apeiros_> vs. where to insert spaces?
<chris2> its a general feature of strings
<apeiros_> both is not knowledge inherent in "a bunch of bytes"
<apeiros_> no
<apeiros_> it's not
<chris2> vs a specific feature of strings
<chris2> yes it is
<apeiros_> it's sooo totally not
<apeiros_> then why "ä".upcase # => "ä"?
<apeiros_> it needs so much knowledge
<chris2> not every string is a phone number
<apeiros_> not every string is words
<apeiros_> again, silly borders
<apeiros_> not every string is a binary packed format (String#unpack)
<apeiros_> not every string is an integer (String#to_i)
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<chris2> why not define Object#format_phone_number then?
<apeiros_> not every string is… insert whatever
<banisterfiend> chris2: he's not giving the functionality to every string, only to strings in a certain scope wehre it makes sense, such as in a DSL of some sort
<chris2> perhaps i want 112.format...
<apeiros_> really, going down that line of argumentation paints yourself in a corner where most methods in string do not belong into string
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<chris2> not a corner :P
<apeiros_> the upcase/downcase is excellent
<apeiros_> as it needs knowledge about encoding too
<chris2> i wouldnt mind if that were the case
<apeiros_> which even happens to be encapsulated in a different object
<chris2> and 1.9 string has encoding
<apeiros_> so why should downcase/upcase be handled by string, which doesn't know the internals of an encoding, and not by the encoding class?
<chris2> i wonder where you learned about oo
<apeiros_> bertrand meyer
<apeiros_> you should look him up and read his books.
<steveklabnik> lol
<chris2> i know his work
<steveklabnik> apeiros_ uses 'bertrand meyer'
<steveklabnik> it's not very effective
<apeiros_> chris2: tell me how many encodings are there?
<steveklabnik> steveklabnik uses 'alan kay'
<chris2> ;)
<chris2> steveklabnik: classboxes exist :P
<apeiros_> and then tell me why it makes more sense to let *string* know about the transformation of *each* encoding instead of an encoding instance
<apeiros_> and then tell me again where you heard about OO
<apeiros_> srsly
<steveklabnik> chris2: that's true. refinements are not classboxes
<apeiros_> you're fixated to a view to which you've grown accustomed.
<apeiros_> maybe it's time you take a couple of steps backwards and reevaluate.
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<apeiros_> instead of getting all ad-hominem…
<steveklabnik> NO U
<steveklabnik> (see how that works?)
<chris2> apeiros_: i did not mean to attack you
<apeiros_> steveklabnik: I doubt that you studied with alan kay btw.
<steveklabnik> sometimes we call each other on the phone
<steveklabnik> 'hey alan.... how are you? no, nothing special, i was just thinking about you *blush*'
<steveklabnik> :p
<chris2> it just seems weird to put a string internal thing into a seperate class
<steveklabnik> you miss my point
<steveklabnik> my point is that argument from authority means nothing
<steveklabnik> especially when you can find so many conflicting authorities
<steveklabnik> alan kay, the guy who invtented OO, thinks he got OO wrong.
<steveklabnik> for example
<apeiros_> steveklabnik: I wasn't making a point. read the backlog.
<chris2> and the actual conversion in 1.9 is done by the encoding thingies i think
<steveklabnik> you invoked meyer
<apeiros_> If I'd wanted to use BM to make a point I'd have quoted him
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<apeiros_> steveklabnik: read. the. backlog. I did not invoke it. it was a reply.
<steveklabnik> now you're playing semantics
<steveklabnik> i didnt invoke it
<steveklabnik> i just said it
<steveklabnik> ....?
<apeiros_> you say I used him to make a point which is so obviously not true that it hurts. seriously.
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<chris2> eiffel has string to_uppper btw
<steveklabnik> 8:47 < apeiros_> you should look him up and read his books. <- not a point?
<steveklabnik> anyway
<steveklabnik> i'm done
<apeiros_> steveklabnik: no
<steveklabnik> regardless
<apeiros_> you misunderstand how argumentation works. again, if I'd had wanted to use him, I'd have quoted him. I did not make any connection between his works and this discussion.
<steveklabnik> lolololololololol
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<apeiros_> feel free to show how I did. will be fun to see…
<Spaceghostc2c> I think you're both using some very hilarious logical fallacies. :D
<Spaceghostc2c> Go nuts.
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<apeiros_> or rather, what point I supposedly made…