<wpwrak>
nicksydney: thanks ! hmm, at the moment, the help i need most right now is in getting that biz framework. without it, and soon, the project is doomed. so if you happen to have an MBA or such, or know people who may want to run such a thing, that would be very useful.
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: on the technical side, i'm preparing the next board version. but that's not something with easily shareable work.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: i believe personally that you will have more success if we go towards crowdsourcing style (which i read you have looked at).. the other thing is perhaps look at selling it through tindie.com ?
<wpwrak>
tinie looks like a shop ? naw, that's not what i need now
<wpwrak>
i still need to complete prototype design. then make the "alpha" round of devices. then the "beta" round. then out to the masses.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I wonder how can you afford to dedicate so much time to OSHW
<whitequark>
(and IRC)
<wpwrak>
R&D and alpha need financing but don't really provide a "product" to sell
<wpwrak>
whitequark: don't worry, it won't last ...
<whitequark>
now *that* makes me worry
<wpwrak>
(R&D, alpha financing) hence my idea for "crowdfinancing", e.g., via a coop. not entirely sure whether that makes sense, would need some looking into by someone who knows about such stuff.
<wpwrak>
beta and mass could use traditional crowdfunding, although i would prefer to distribute via resellers, since that takes away a lot of trouble
<wpwrak>
whitequark: for that matter, me too :)
<whitequark>
you could set up a farm
<wpwrak>
not a good time. winter is coming. no harvest for a while.
<whitequark>
that depends on which house are you from...
<wpwrak>
besides, internet access is pretty difficult from most farms. and expensive.
<wpwrak>
hmm, the branch of my family that came from a "house" went in a different direction
<whitequark>
(internet access) couldn't you, idk, just lay a few kilometers of fiber optics?
<whitequark>
GPON is all the rage, it can't be expensive anymore
<wpwrak>
and then connect to the next farm. without internet access :)
<whitequark>
hmm, I see an opportunity for becoming an ISP!
<wpwrak>
run a local facebook clone in the basement and sell the neighbour's personal secrets to .. whom ? :)
<whitequark>
to his wife!
<wpwrak>
then both will come and kill me
<whitequark>
wise people.
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak: just out of curiosity how much longer and how much is needed to make anelok to reach it's mass production state ?
<nicksydney>
i have few ideas that i want to throw at you who knows maybe it will stick :)
<wpwrak>
that would depend on how the beta goes. beta could be self-sufficient, but again that would depend on whether people are willing to pay USD ~200 for a kit (beta would still have high production cost)
<wpwrak>
to get that far, i guess something like 15 kUSD should be enough. time ... 2 months + alpha + alpha results
<nicksydney>
so with $15K you will get to the state of a ready-to-made-production anelok ? or further testing required ?
<wpwrak>
alpha would be device kits suitable for interested developers. so, very rough.
<wpwrak>
alpha: anelok, ybox, fixtures.
<wpwrak>
beta: would be similar, but working towards industrializing the process. anelok + ybox.
<wpwrak>
mass production would get "proper" cases. that's expensive (can be in the order of 100 kUSD, but that depends a bit on the volume we have. there are also cheaper options.), to crowdfunding would have to pay for that.
<nicksydney>
so pretty much i can see you are aiming at alpha + beta first ?
<nicksydney>
and then once that works out than aim for mass production (expensive option) ?
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<wpwrak>
yes
<wpwrak>
for mp everything must be perfectly right
<wpwrak>
woudn't want to have a 1 MUSD+ mass-grave at my hands :)
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<nicksydney>
cool....
<nicksydney>
have you ever thought about hardware incubator ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess you can't translate the german term "Beamter"
<whitequark>
"official" ?
<whitequark>
hehe, Lingvo offers two examples for "Beamter": ein hoher Beamter & ein bestechlicher Beamter
<DocScrutinizer05>
both pretty good examples
<DocScrutinizer05>
"Beamte" are paid by some official authority and generally can't get fired, and are quite commonly frowned upon for a) laziness or sleeping during working hours, and b) their high pension
<DocScrutinizer05>
laufbahn is an ambiguous term, which turns the street name pretty much into a pun
<DocScrutinizer05>
it can mean "carrier" as well as literally something or somebody moving along a guided path
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/guided/defined
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "it can mean "carrier" as well as literally something or somebody moving along a defined path"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"wie kam der denn ins Rathaus?" "Ueber die Beamtenlaufbahn" -- I bet some fools must have pissed themselves from laughing
<whitequark>
hehe
<wpwrak>
fools ? it seems to be a rather clever hack - they hacked the street naming system :)
<whitequark>
never underestimate intel. someone's market valuation is their pocket change
<whitequark>
and inelegant solutions may still be disturbingly effective
<nicksydney>
no doubt about it...that's how it works the first time when Android was released :)...flood the market and it will eventually roll on its own
<wpwrak>
oh, perl is (finally) learning old tricks about parameter passing: search.cpan.org/~rjbs/perl-5.20.0/pod/perlsub.pod#Signatures
<wpwrak>
so @_ did get too suckish eventually. nice :)
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<larsc>
almost like php now :0
<larsc>
;)
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<wpwrak>
there's also progress towards making every conceivable line noise syntactically correct perl: search.cpan.org/~rjbs/perl-5.20.0/pod/perlref.pod#Postfix_Dereference_Syntax
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, quite distracted now by some other sad stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nikolaus finally killed Neo900, because of... duh, communication problems
<DocScrutinizer05>
or maybe because of some strange sentiments
<DocScrutinizer05>
I really don't know
<whitequark>
wait, how do you mean "killed" ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
terminated, excuted, shot in the forehead
<whitequark>
:/
<wpwrak>
i'd rather call that perfectly coordinated teamwork
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<whitequark>
wpwrak: hm?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: joerg basically forced nik's hand
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: werner has his own ideas about whose fault this been
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nikolaus insisting in me doing something basically illegal. I refused
<DocScrutinizer05>
insisting in demanding that I do...
<whitequark>
illegal? related to funds transfer I guess?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole funds transfer been meant to sort out the problem that Nik on his donation page had a fineprint that turned the donations into preorder contracts. Nik insisted in Neo900 UG doing same mistake again, or otherwise he's not willing to transfer the funds
<wpwrak>
... and before we could try to negotiate a consensus both could agree on, joerg barged ahead and snatched defeat from the jaws of success.
<DocScrutinizer05>
since I refused to do (and my advisers and lawyers forbid me to do), he accused me of >> I am not participating in willingly cheating customers by deliberately concealing information [...] Either Jörg makes a good neo900.org/something page clearly telling the rules instead of trying to hide something or I won't help with any direct transfer to him.<<
<wpwrak>
correct process: both of you meet and talk about your two stories, just to make sure you know what agree and what you disagree with. then you do to a lawyer, tell him your story and listen to what he has to say. it's not that difficult.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not hiding *anything* - I'm just not allowed to post there on this page that Neo900 UG of course will still rebate the devices like we always announced and explained. For Nik that's identical to scam when I don't do this prohibited statement there on that particular page, he wasn't willing to point to other sources of same info of which there been plenty offered to him
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: the fuck I won't visit a lawyer for that. I wouldn't know how to pay such loawyer (unlike Nik I only had a few 1000 expenses on Neo900 project and now am broke) and also I wouldn't know what to ask the lawyer for
<wpwrak>
he could still say that there's indeed no common ground, but all these actions were based on the mere assumptions of people not educated in the field
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
absolutely not
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: well, i proposed a solution for that as well. but of course, by then you already had "created facts"
<DocScrutinizer05>
guess why I had dozens of appointments with my tax adviser last few months, and why I talked to several friends who are lawyers
<wpwrak>
yes, and they only heard your side and your interpretation of nik's side
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, they only told me about facts pretty unrelated to Nik
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<DocScrutinizer05>
actually the stopped me each single time I tried to give them background about Nik and GDC. Since Neo900 UG is not responsible for what GDC does
<wpwrak>
and i'm sure nik's advisors did the same on his side. as i said, "lawyers like that". conflict is the business
<DocScrutinizer05>
conflict is GDC trying to force Neo900 UG to do things so GDC has somebody else to point at
<wpwrak>
which is how it should be done. with the money comes the responsibility for it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not GDC's money
<wpwrak>
that's the problem, yes. GDC is responsible towards others.
<DocScrutinizer05>
GDC refunding, GDC is out.
<wpwrak>
that's what he's doing now
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's NOT GDC's business to help donors make a decision what to do with their money
<wpwrak>
what was lost is the opportunity to move funds directly to neo900 ug
<wpwrak>
if he just refunds back to the origin, it isn't
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is actually just Nik refusing to offer donors a pretty normal and correct way to define the destinationb account they want to receive their refund on
<wpwrak>
so he's doing precisely what you asked him to do. don't complain then.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't complain
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just state Nik is trying to force Neo900 UG to do stuff I clearly told him my lawyers think is illegal
<DocScrutinizer05>
I won't do such stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
He doesn't want to suggest his customers to transfer money to Neo900 UG? Fine, *I* asked them to do.
<wpwrak>
he was prepared to do that but wanted to make sure the implications were not misunderstood. he did get feedback that people were confused. so he wanted to be clear. alas, both of you followed the advice of your advisors, never even presenting them with the complete problem
<wpwrak>
(direct transfer) well, let's see how that goes ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "complete problem2 been "create a donations pafge that's legal" - which I accomplished
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, I have other things to do in my life too
<DocScrutinizer05>
cya
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<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole point being that we MUST NOT promise rebates for donations, or the donation will turn into a purchase, and even an illegal purxhase since we don't know if we even can deliver. Every donor (now customer) could sue us not only for money back but even for criminal cheating and also ask for recompensation for whatever damage we did to her/him. Thus I stuck out my neck as far as >>The spirit, idea and concept behind the
<DocScrutinizer05>
donation remains the same, so for our donors nothing relevant will change, but we can't do it with that fineprint we had so far[...] Legally this turns your donation from whatever it's right now in the notion of german Tax Office into a true clean donation to Neo900 UG,<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even >>whatever you choose from those two options, it will roll back any agreement you had with GDC. The Neo900 UG will stick to the spirit and result of same agreement in case you decide to transfer your donation.<< but that's not been enough for Nik. -- he went >>Either Jörg makes a good neo900.org/something page clearly telling the rules instead of trying to hide something or I won't help with any direct transfer to him.[...
<DocScrutinizer05>
]If he does not want to do this and save money or efforts, I don't understand why I should take any additional burdens from his shoulders. Does he think I am the one to solve his problems? And protect him from risks by generously taking them over? This is my last word to this topic, since I am repeating myself for several days.<<
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<whitequark>
seems like the last straw was you publishing the text without permission
<whitequark>
which isn't very nice imo
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, this text been the text Dos1, wpwrak and *me* worked on for last three days. I don't think I need allowance by Nikolaus to publish it
<DocScrutinizer05>
copyright violation? ROTFL
<whitequark>
even if you don't legally need one, I would still ask him, as a courtesy... oh well, your decisions.
<wpwrak>
(must not promise) i think we all understand that. the keyword is "promise". that's what the lawyer was recommended for, basically to figure out how to make the assurances you want to give without turning them into a formal promise.
<wpwrak>
but yes, it's difficult. particularly since nik then may have to warn people what they're "losing" (in terms of formal promise, not your intentions, which don't change). and you have to agree with what that warning says.
<DocScrutinizer05>
when YOU have the 2 dozen lawyers to defend your ass from everybody and his dog PLUS tax office sueing you in *Germany* for scam and tax evation, then go ahead write that finerpint to your order page, which evades "promise" but still sounds nice to users
<wpwrak>
well, that's what some lawyers train for doing
<wpwrak>
and let's not forget that most of this conflict exists on your side, without even considering GDC, since you want both suggestion to the community and non-promise to the rest of the world. you have to give up something there, but there may be a way to make what you give up not so bad.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry that's blabla
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nik insists in a legally binding pronise
<DocScrutinizer05>
promise, which my lawyers frobid. Nik refuses to continue even discussing the issue
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't expect me back befor next week
<DocScrutinizer05>
*I* have ZILCH problems with this transfer, GDC has problems offering their customers an option to decide where to refund them
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<whitequark>
"
<whitequark>
There has been the question if we can directly transfer your refund to Neo900 UG.
<whitequark>
Let's say it this way: we don't recommend it. Because we don't know if you should agree the different conditions or not. If we recommend it, it means that we find the new conditions good and recommendable.
<whitequark>
But we transfer the money to any bank account you specify and instruct us.
<whitequark>
And, please use this "Notes" tool on the web shop order page (see link at the end of this mail) for providing the bank account data since it makes it a little easier to associate it to the order records.
<whitequark>
What we need:
<whitequark>
Name + IBAN (+BIC if you have it). If we have problems doing the transfer we will contact you.
<whitequark>
"
<wpwrak>
he's not so good with words today
<wpwrak>
well, tonight for him
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<DocScrutinizer05>
who's "we"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
pluralis majestatis?
<whitequark>
royal we, apparently
<whitequark>
I'm assuming you were kept in the dark about this announcement as well?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, which announcement?
<whitequark>
the text above just got mailed to all Neo900 contributors
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not a contributor
<whitequark>
well, duh; but as the head of Neo900 UG (right?) I would expect you to know about this change...
<DocScrutinizer05>
right, I'm head and CEO and only employee and member of Neo900 UG, and I don't receive anything like such info from GDC
* DocScrutinizer05
looks at >>I don't have anything personally against Jörg (he is a nice guy and we share a lot of ideas and visions) and I am not chasing/stalking/bashing him<< and shrugs
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: if you promise to behave, i'll forward it to you :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I will behave, I#m afk in 5 min
<wpwrak>
very good :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
this whole kindergarden is way beyond what my tortured nind is able to cope with
<DocScrutinizer05>
mind*
<wpwrak>
it seems that everyone is tired ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
you have no idea!
<DocScrutinizer05>
when it seems my kbd hangs, it's me laying on the keys
<DocScrutinizer05>
just lemme forward a quote
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-05-28 Wed 18:14:24] <teleshoes> theres totally an implicit "i really think youd be wiser waiting for something else cooler"
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-05-28 Wed 18:14:44] <teleshoes> and an EXPLICIT downplaying of neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-05-28 Wed 18:15:11] <teleshoes> he couldnt have picked a more passive-aggressive way of phrasing things if he tried, imo
<wpwrak>
i knew you'd bring that up :)
<wpwrak>
well, he does have some doubts whether you'll be able to run the project without GDC. you said yourself that you're not sure about this yourself, and need to think about it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hahaha
<wpwrak>
now, he's expected to say something now. so it seems that his misgiving are creeping in. i don't think he does that intentionally. freudian slips all over it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, this reads totally different here, and at teleshoes' end
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<whitequark>
that's really the worst possible way to handle the issue
<whitequark>
especially given he's a business owner and not just some random internet guy