DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
<DocScrutinizer05> nah, we're a fast crew :-D
<DocScrutinizer05> damn fast
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
<nicksydney> wpwrak: will be working with the 6 layers Neo900 schematics ? :)
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<DocScrutinizer05> nicksydney: the schematics are 2D some 30 sheets. They layout is one 4-layer and one 8-layer PCB
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<DocScrutinizer05> -y
<nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: the diagram looks like a frequency of something no idea what it is .. but keen to know :)
<DocScrutinizer05> my home automation
<nicksydney> the value in dBm ? isn't that decible ... frequency ?
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<DocScrutinizer05> dBm is signal strength, Relative Strength of SIgnal
<DocScrutinizer05> or Received ?
<DocScrutinizer05> deciBel(milliWatt)
<nicksydney> so basically it's the signal strength of each point in your home automation?
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<nicksydney> is it like a wifi access point ?
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, the central control unit CCU might be
<DocScrutinizer05> it's the thing with most connections
<DocScrutinizer05> HomeMatic
<nicksydney> how you were able to measure the signal strenght from each point that is really interesting
<DocScrutinizer05> the devices do that
<DocScrutinizer05> and tell it to CCU1
<nicksydney> ahhh ok gotcha...now i get it .. thanks
<DocScrutinizer05> and CCU1 displays http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png
<DocScrutinizer05> and http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopm26588.png when you click that button on bottom
<DocScrutinizer05> "Create RSSI graph online"
<nicksydney> signal is considered good when the dB value is minus higher or lower ?
<DocScrutinizer05> -99dBm is limit
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess
<DocScrutinizer05> though for those crappy little receivers, prolly -84dBm
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<DocScrutinizer05> a cellpgone has some +26dBm output power
<DocScrutinizer05> cellphone
<DocScrutinizer05> 0dBm is prolly 1mWatt
<nicksydney> in your case all the values are (-) does this mean that -72dBm is less strength than -2dBm ?
<DocScrutinizer05> sure
<DocScrutinizer05> and I wonder why soooo many are -72dBm. Looks like a glitch somewhere
<nicksydney> hehe...that was exactly i was going to asked you there are more than 3-4 deviecs that read that value (-72)
<nicksydney> so why is it so weak
<nicksydney> maybe block or interference ?
<DocScrutinizer05> even some that are only 3m away from CCU. While e.g. "Aussen" (thermo sensor garden) is -42dBm
<DocScrutinizer05> I think the -72 is somehow bogus
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<DocScrutinizer05> also there's a bit on nonsense in the whole thing, since all communications are bidir, and the table (http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png) states always same RSSI for A->B and B->A
<DocScrutinizer05> which doesn't really make sense
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<nicksydney> VoCore: A coin-sized Linux computer with wifi - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vocore-a-coin-sized-linux-computer-with-wifi
<nicksydney> MIPS chip :)
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<nicksydney> http://vonger.cn/?p=6 --> "This month I spend all my free time on a cheap router chip named RT5350F. It is only 9RMB(1.5USD)." ... the chip is frickin' cheap !
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<DocScrutinizer05> VoCore is kinda nice
<whitequark> ... except for the fact that we will have a lot more of insecure Linux machines which are never updated after deployment and are a perfect target for persistent threats
<whitequark> it's not strictly their fault, but it's still a huge problem
<nicksydney> camea cross another Taiwan based company that produces GPS chip http://www.skytraq.com.tw/ ... it is also being used in https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11058 and here http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/navspark-gl-arduino-compatible-development-board-with-gps-glonass/
<nicksydney> CAN5125M - GNSS Dual-mode dual-channel RF SoC
<nicksydney> wonder why this board http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/development-boards/ is using 2 kind of GPS chip
<kyak> 2 square inch computer is impossible to loose :)
<kyak> pretty interesting.. they claim that Atheros AR9271 requries no blob in linux kernel
<kyak> i didn't know such chips exist
<kyak> how amazing is that?
<nicksydney> so the full driver source is available for the AR9271 ?
<kyak> it seems so, yes
<kyak> both the firmware and the software driver
<nicksydney> seems like the IC is not sold to the public..most of the search comes out the chip insied a product
<kyak> are you interested in the chip itself?
<nicksydney> just collecting info for now :)
<kyak> well, if it's not at digikey, i don't know where it is :)
<kyak> probably the manufacturers buy from atheros directly
<DocScrutinizer05> firmware? in hex or what?
<DocScrutinizer05> or do they use ARM mnemonics?
<DocScrutinizer05> or does it come with embedded manual for the instruction set of the embedded CPU?
<DocScrutinizer05> wait, prolly it's c, so they will ship a gcc-extension for that CPU ISA, right?
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: it uses something ancient like hitachi h8300 iirc
<DocScrutinizer05> mhm
<whitequark> also yeah, it's in C
<whitequark> hm, not h8300. xtensa
<whitequark> nfc what that is, first time I ever hear that name
<whitequark> oh, it's a custom synthesizable core
<DocScrutinizer05> toldya
<whitequark> oooooh I realized
<whitequark> whoa, they open-sourced the ath*9*k firmware
<whitequark> I thought it was about ancient ath*5*k firmware
<DocScrutinizer05> I still wonder which compiler to use
<DocScrutinizer05> resp which ISA
<whitequark> they ship it with a gcc patch
<DocScrutinizer05> LOL
<DocScrutinizer05> ok, fair enough, free firmware obviously *is* possible
<whitequark> and by the most unlikely vendor ever, qualcomm
<whitequark> I mean, atheros was always FOSS-friendly, but I was quite certain that'll end with qcom acquisition
<whitequark> apparently not
<DocScrutinizer05> sure? isn't that HTC?
<whitequark> hm? qcom and htc are different companies
<DocScrutinizer05> exactly
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<DocScrutinizer05> open-ath9k-htc-firmware
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> note this: The Qualcomm Atheros owned code is under the ClearBSD licence.
<DocScrutinizer05> ooh
<whitequark> I quite doubt that HTC would rewrite the firmware solely to release it as FOSS
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess chinese gvmt kicked their arse
<DocScrutinizer05> I could figure HTC was interested in a deal including selling 1.2 billion devices to the chinese
<DocScrutinizer05> but for that they needed to open up the complete soft/firmware
<whitequark> that sounds an odd requirement
<DocScrutinizer05> it isn't
<DocScrutinizer05> China baught german transrapid, but only with knowhow to build them on their own
<DocScrutinizer05> it's quite usual. Chinese gvmt is tough in that regard
<DocScrutinizer05> china been first with requirement for USB charging
<whitequark> fascinating
<DocScrutinizer05> iirc they also created "their own" linux distro since they didn't want windows on laptops
<DocScrutinizer05> with 1200 million potential customers you may start negotiations about stuff that's impossible elsewhere
<DocScrutinizer05> and when HTC asks for 1200 million ath9k chips, they can negotiate whatever they want with qualcom
<DocScrutinizer05> bot of course that's all wild guessing, based on 3 letters in a filename
<DocScrutinizer05> but*
<DocScrutinizer05> when they say "it must be freeBSD" then qualcom will ask how to indent the code
<DocScrutinizer05> for the chipmakers it's all just a question of ROI
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<DocScrutinizer05> what sells chips, what sells most chips, what sells chips *now*
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<DocScrutinizer05> hire 200 hackers for 3 months to rewrite that crap FOSS compliant? so what?
<whitequark> makes sense
<DocScrutinizer05> when it sells 1 billion chips
<DocScrutinizer05> they would literally kill for less
<DocScrutinizer05> it's not like chip makers hate FOSS per se, they just don't like the money it costs them
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<DocScrutinizer05> publish a datasheet --> hire a lawyer for two years to manage it
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<DocScrutinizer05> simple as that
<DocScrutinizer05> cinterion recently discontinued their datasheet policy (register, receive download link)
<DocScrutinizer05> :-(
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<DocScrutinizer05> they seem to "outsource" this, luckily there are sites like http://download.maritex.com.pl/
<DocScrutinizer05> and http://www.seapraha.cz/download/ \o/
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* whitequark laughs
<whitequark> $ apt-get install fontforge works... and doesn't ask $240
<larsc> but you don't get the latest and greatest version
<whitequark> I've actually ran that
<whitequark> by comparison, Tcl/Tk looks astoundingly modern
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<whitequark> wohoo, wpwrak, welcome on board :)
<nicksydney> wpwrak: congrats! mate ... Werner the Gerber :)
<nicksydney> heheheh
<nicksydney> Replicant running w/o hardware acceleration is pretty good i should say considering it's 512MBon GTA04
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<nicksydney> wpwrak: man! your name is everywhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko :)
<whitequark> try $ pstree --version
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<nicksydney> YIKES !
<nicksydney> it's like he is haunting me now
<nicksydney> hehhehe
<nicksydney> pstree (PSmisc) 22.19
<nicksydney> Copyright (C) 1993-2009 Werner Almesberger and Craig Small
<nicksydney> this must be when he was 19yrs old http://marc.merlins.org/linux/linuxexpo99/Day3/Bofs/PDAs/101_almesberger.jpg :)
<nicksydney> and this must be after 10 yrs from that picture taken http://www.flickr.com/photos/fisl13/7661788726/in/photostream/
<eintopf> 1993 :O
<eintopf> I have 5 years old there
<eintopf> was*
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<wpwrak> hmm, sometimes, "the competition" seems to be going out of its way to make it easy for you: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myidkey/myidkey-passwords-at-the-tip-of-your-finger/comments
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<nicksydney> i sometimes don't understand why people want to work and have career in Google ? if the reason is because to work with bright minds ...a lot of open source engineer are damn bright !....but if they are after the money than it's different story
<wpwrak> maybe it's the combination ?
<wpwrak> also, google have the resources to actually make things happen
<Lumocolor> recommendation for free drivers/firmware usb bluetooth 3.0+ dongel?
<wpwrak> BT 4 ... the broadcom BCM20702A0 seems to have good support
<wpwrak> well, just BCM20702 is enough
<Lumocolor> bt4 even better
<wpwrak> definitely, because bt 4 gives you btle
<Lumocolor> it's for my mini bt keyboard + touchpad combo
<Lumocolor> so I need bt3 min because I don't think it's been cracked... right?
<wpwrak> i have a dongle with that chipset and it talks regular BT out of the box with ubuntu. (i got a little BT keyboard for testing) didn't even have to download firmware or such.
<Lumocolor> shame it's a evil broadcom one sigh
<wpwrak> dunno. the experts on poking holes into BT hang out of #ubertooth
<Lumocolor> arrr thanks
<wpwrak> at least it's not made my monsanto ;-)
<Lumocolor> hehe but broadcom SOCs are as bad as monsanto :O
<wpwrak> given how much the rpi spreads, you could almost say that :)
<Lumocolor> lol
<wpwrak> a very limited list
<Lumocolor> also look at 2012,2011
<Lumocolor> can't filter by bt version, so I filtered by year, yours is mentioned
<wpwrak> i searched for BCM20702. there's a lot more dongles with that chip out there
<Lumocolor> I only need one
<wpwrak> that database shows just one and that's probably something integrated in the laptop
<Lumocolor> hmm
<wpwrak> that one has a CSR chipset. dunno if that's okay with linux.
<wpwrak> here's another one with the broadcom chip: http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Bluetooth-Micro-Adapter-GBU521/dp/B007GFX0PY
<Lumocolor> bouns is it dosen't look like a boardcom one hehehe :)
<wpwrak> kewl :)
<Lumocolor> I wonder what the signal is like on these tiny things
<Lumocolor> don't they need a 4cm antenna for err full range?
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<wpwrak> maybe. but then, these centimeters don't have to be in a straight line
<wpwrak> see atben/atusb: there, the antenna is folded
<wpwrak> and then you have chip antennas that are even more compact
<DocScrutinizer05> 1/4 lambda, 5/8 lambda, 1/2 lambda diploles, there's a lot of stuff, it's not about a certain length of wire
<DocScrutinizer05> and then an antenna basically *always* is a dipole - something most people like to ignore or not even understand
<wpwrak> do you know how chip antennas manage to be so small ? is it mainly the dielectric or some clever folding ?
<wpwrak> well, the meandering antennas hide their dipolity rather well ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> well, you can make an antenna out of everything, as long as the tuning is ok. Gain however is another question
<wpwrak> takes a bit of explaining to make people understand that they're still basically the same
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't think those chip antennas have a particularly good gain
<wpwrak> and then you have even weirder forms, slot antennas etc. i don't even pretend how all those critters really work :)
<DocScrutinizer05> RF is voodoo
<wpwrak> some of the chips look reasonably decent. not all, though.
<wpwrak> indeed
<DocScrutinizer05> did you happen to run into the book about antenna design I bought in that awesome bookstore in TPE and left in OM office? it had some 1300 pages
<DocScrutinizer05> just about antennas
<wpwrak> no, never saw that one
<DocScrutinizer05> (was too heavy to take it with me to D)
<wpwrak> i miss that bookshop, too
<wpwrak> and "too heavy" is a poor excuse :)