<wpwrak>
also just in terms of clock speed. a mean, even the rather bottom-end M0+ i use does 48 MHz. e.g., STM32F3 (M3) would be 120 MHz, F4 160 MHz (or maybe a few more, don't remember)
<ysionneau>
(except Cortex-A5x which are armv8a 64bits)
<wpwrak>
#s/a mean/i mean/
<ysionneau>
ah sorry ARM7 is armv3 but the AT91SAM7 is using ARM7TDMI which is armv4T
<ysionneau>
but still it's old and the clock is something like 70 MHz max
<nicksydney>
interesting
<nicksydney>
the price of Cortex-A5 is expensive compared to A8/A9
<nicksydney>
where A8/A9 is more powerful than A5 no ?
<ysionneau>
yes
<ysionneau>
but A5 is "low power"
<ysionneau>
and I guess it takes less die surface
<nicksydney>
supposedly they came out with A5 for low power devices compared to A8/A9
<ysionneau>
it's the new "low power application processor armv7" for low end "smart phone"
<ysionneau>
they will try to reach the $25 boundary for smart phones with that
<pcercuei>
I'd love a MIPS chip with those specs
<ysionneau>
MIPS is trying to come in the Android / smartphone run as well
<ysionneau>
they have a port of Android
<ysionneau>
I think there are a few android devices under MIPS
<ysionneau>
MIPS Warrior series 5 CPUs I think
<CYB3R_ng>
Most of Android based smart-watch use JZ4775, Xburst MIPS
<ysionneau>
ah ok I didn't know that Android was already running on old MIPS cores
<CYB3R_ng>
ingenic provided android images for all of it's recent socs
<nicksydney>
ysionneau: yes few Android based MIPS phones has been released
<CYB3R_ng>
and few tablets as well
<ysionneau>
nicksydney: do you have the phone names ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
I may publish UG account and receive payments
<wpwrak>
that's already a good step forward
<DocScrutinizer51>
he recxommended a lawyer
<wpwrak>
with what specialization ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
for any "promises" (aka fineprint) that comes with the UG account webpage, I need a lawyer
<DocScrutinizer51>
dunno specialization of Mr Hoffman
<DocScrutinizer51>
he mentioned "tantieme" and "dividende" but I need to ask the lawyer about details
<wpwrak>
ah, he told you where to go. perfect.
<wpwrak>
the terminology sounds good. do you have a concrete plan for how you want the project to run in the long term, business-wise ? i.e., do you want to operate on crowdfunding alone, possibly seek investors, ... ? also, do you want the "donations" to be considered gifts/donations/some form of contract ? maybe have the option to choose among multiple choices ?
<wpwrak>
then, what do you plan to create revenue with ? selling things ? selling services ? selling "intellectual property" ?
<wpwrak>
and then, where does the revenue go ? will you have partners, shareholders, or similar ? will you have a big pile of money just in the organization, to be used in there (e.g., for advance the project or to finance similar future activities) ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
no, the plan is to get a production-ready Neo900 from the funds we already have, then open normal order (webshop) site and start MP (with ensurance) from the order payments that come in
<wpwrak>
so revenue will come from "donations" and selling devices
<DocScrutinizer51>
revenue? which revenue?
<DocScrutinizer51>
;)
<wpwrak>
what you get from selling devices. unless you plan to sell "at cost" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer51>
nah, I planned for a maybe 10% revenue
<wpwrak>
btw, just as an aside, also anything "not profit-oriented" doesn't exclude lush compensations for those doing it
<wpwrak>
10% for you at the end of the day ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
kinda
<DocScrutinizer51>
UG is subcontracting basically eeverything
<wpwrak>
so no sprawling "joerg industrial park" on google maps anytime soon
<DocScrutinizer51>
depending on how stuff pans out, those might be 3 or even 0 percent in the end
<DocScrutinizer51>
eventually (next month or the one after) I gonna pay myself a monthly "salary"
<wpwrak>
very good
<DocScrutinizer51>
any revenue coming in at end of project is a bonus
<wpwrak>
do you plan to share this bonus with anyone ? nik, dos1, maybe others ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
othersw, no. Nik. unclear (though I'd prefer to share with him), Dos yes
pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware
<wpwrak>
good. you may have to have to consider such information when you get things started in earnest. dunno if you have to explicitly declare it somehow/somewhere. but your lawyer will tell you that.
<DocScrutinizer51>
no need to declare anything
<DocScrutinizer51>
this is a UG no AG
<wpwrak>
from nik's concerns i get the vibe that it may help to have such things clearly stated. not for shareholders but for tax audits (or their avoidance)
<wpwrak>
do you know how to do the bookkeeping and such ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
meh, that's my tax adviser's job
<wpwrak>
so you'll see him quite often :)
<wpwrak>
well, or mail
<DocScrutinizer51>
well, I take all invoices and bills to tax adviser once per month
<wpwrak>
sounds reasonable
<wpwrak>
when will you meed that lawyer ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
I wouldn't have cosnidered starting Neo900 when it wouldn't sound reasonable. I'm allergic to that stuff
<DocScrutinizer51>
dunno
<DocScrutinizer51>
too late today to give him a call
<wpwrak>
(alergic) welcome to the club ;-)
<DocScrutinizer51>
initially the idea been that GDC does the accounting, but we forgot that this also means full responsibility
<wpwrak>
what's the plan for the rights and ownership of the gta04 side of neo900 ? i.e., nik's stuff. as far as i understand it, a lot is basically the same, isn't it ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
well, yes, I dunno yet. Doesn't matter too much
<wpwrak>
(fully responsibility) well, for the accounting. you could still screw up anything else on your own responsibility :)
<wpwrak>
(gta04) not ? will there be so little left of it ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
obviously when UG pays for hw developmewnt then UG holds the rights in the derived work
<wpwrak>
well, in the "delta". not in the original work that underlies it.
<DocScrutinizer51>
I don't care too much if those are exclusive rights
gbraad_ has quit [Quit: These were my 15 kilobytes of fame!]
<DocScrutinizer51>
no, since we can't build devices from delta
<wpwrak>
that's one part. the other are publishing rights and such
<wpwrak>
still, without any other agreement, you can only "own" the delta. so you need to discuss this. doens't have to be complex, but you have to have clarity.
<DocScrutinizer51>
delta to what?
<DocScrutinizer51>
UG orders schematics, layout, and even CE et al approval for a device at GDC
<DocScrutinizer51>
meant to get produced and published
<DocScrutinizer51>
GDC can't deliver any 'delta'
<wpwrak>
you basically have the following rights that should matter: 1) use for production, 2) publication (schematics, layout, EDA files), whole or in part, 3) preventing others from using it (that's the "exclusive" right - to exclude others), 4) grant/transfer/license any of your rights to others
<wpwrak>
(delta) i mean the changes that you make/made to the gta04 design
<DocScrutinizer51>
yep
<wpwrak>
oh, and 5) credits (mentioning of original authorship)
<DocScrutinizer51>
from that pov there's no gta04
<wpwrak>
so it's a complete redesign from reference designs et al. ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
but 1..5 is something that's pretty clear for 1 2 3 and not important for 4 5
<DocScrutinizer51>
(redesign) UG doesn't care
<wpwrak>
well, if it's a new work by the UG, then GDC holds no rights. if neo900 is an enhanced gta04 design, GDC does hold rights.
<wpwrak>
of course GDC can just you have them (well, most of them)
<DocScrutinizer51>
look, GTA04 is a baegleboard redesign
<DocScrutinizer51>
there is no copyright in schematics
<DocScrutinizer51>
there's maybe IP in footprints, and that's sth to get sorted between GDC and UG
<wpwrak>
not sure about schematics. they do have an element of graphical "art", so that may very well protected. the netlist, the distilled technical information, may be a different story, though
<DocScrutinizer51>
exactly
<wpwrak>
and yes, anything layout is almost certainly copyrightable
<wpwrak>
and yes, you have to sort that out. just checking that it's on your agenda ;-)
<whitequark>
not "almost". layout ~ artwork
<whitequark>
copyright is funny, it treats schematics like artwork and code like novels
<wpwrak>
whitequark: with law, there's never any total certainty :)
<whitequark>
fine :)
<wpwrak>
(novels) you'd see why if you used a language that lets you freely express yourself ;-)
<DocScrutinizer51>
that's the tax approach as well
<wpwrak>
(tax) heh, indeed :)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer51: ... treating code like novels? or never any total certainty?
<whitequark>
if former, I'm afraid to even ask what unimaginable horror it results in
<DocScrutinizer51>
latter
<DocScrutinizer51>
see the bitvhing of estel about eagle project files. I told him there are GDC assets in layout, but for now we don't care about that detail. Initially I suggested Nik should sell the IP to UG so it could get published. We never finished that discussion
<DocScrutinizer51>
well, sell the right to publish
<DocScrutinizer51>
he will need to sell the right to use anyway
<whitequark>
well, the question of layouts is largely academic anyway
<DocScrutinizer51>
otherwise UG can't build devices
<whitequark>
I mean, layouts being open-source. it's a philosophical point more than a practical one
<wpwrak>
whitequark: as far as i know, none of this is open in neo900
<DocScrutinizer51>
(academic) not when it comes to publishing the leayout files
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I know
<wpwrak>
and also things that are open sometimes need enforcing. see gpl-violations.org
<whitequark>
I mean, we can hardly set up one company to produce the boards. I wouldn't worry about being able to set up another in some unknown future
<whitequark>
since in five years most of the chips will be EOL anyway
<whitequark>
or even earlier than chips, those funky connectors DocScrutinizer51 had immense trouble sourcing
<DocScrutinizer51>
sure
<DocScrutinizer51>
it's just for fools like estel and friends who think "it MUST be OPEN"
<whitequark>
hence "philosophical"
<wpwrak>
connectors are always fun. but creating a company can also be done to protect assets. e.g., if there was a "galaxy inc.", apple couldn't sue samsung
<DocScrutinizer51>
starts to become a PITA when those suckers accuse you to abuse the term 'open device'
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't call a strong desire for openness foolish
<whitequark>
wpwrak: but Samsung *did* copy Apple's design, right? not sure what you're arguing for
<DocScrutinizer51>
openness of gerber?
<whitequark>
(even if Apple selected a method of enforcing their point of view that couldn't be more evil)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: open source, so the design files. gerber is already an output
<DocScrutinizer51>
openness of silicon purification process?
<whitequark>
that's probably already open
<whitequark>
described in academic papers. go and DIY!
<DocScrutinizer51>
layout is trivial, go and DIY
<wpwrak>
whitequark: what i mean is that, if samsung had set up a company specifically for that product, apple would have a harder time getting gazillions out of this
<whitequark>
wpwrak: that's really hard to say, apple has a lot of power. they'd apply it in some other way
<whitequark>
bribe the right guy? (they call it 'lobbying')
<wpwrak>
schematics and layout are useful when you want to add things, when you want to fix things, when you want to learn how to do things, when you want to make new devices when joerg retires to some pacific island, and so on
<DocScrutinizer51>
ok, afk, since too OT for my tiny screen and kbd
<whitequark>
I thought schematics would be accessible?
<whitequark>
(although "accessible" may not always mean "can be reused in a successor device"
<DocScrutinizer51>
schematics yes, component placement yes. Layout? NO
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: i'll nag you more about this later, when things are calmer ;-)
<wpwrak>
whitequark: (bribe) perhaps. but they'd have to spend a fair bit of time on that first obstacle. win a first lawsuit to let them draw samsung into it, then go through the appeals and revision process, and only then, years layer, they could proceed to the actual case
<whitequark>
I think it went on for some years either way
<wpwrak>
err, years laTer
<DocScrutinizer51>
anyway Neo900 never promised to be free hw project, we promised to provide an open device
<wpwrak>
yes, but you could easily double that
<whitequark>
and even then, samsung updates their lineage so fast, any past decisions quickly get outdated
<DocScrutinizer51>
and we clearly specified what we will provide
<DocScrutinizer51>
I'm not going to defend the not-yet decision about publishing layout of Neo900 against a sucker who calls me names
<DocScrutinizer51>
"not arduino style? no layout? forget it!" ok, piss off sucker
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: you know that it's a bad idea to go shopping when you're hungry, because you'll buy a lot more than you need. given that the human mind works like this, now isn't the best time to discuss proper openness.
<DocScrutinizer51>
tell that estel
<wpwrak>
and yes, WHERE ARE THE CONNECTORS FOR MY A-R-D-U-I-N-O SHIELDS ? 5 V !?
<wpwrak>
also estel may calm down :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
even my promise to consider that later was no good for him
<wpwrak>
in that line of work it helps to grow a reasonably thick skin :)
<DocScrutinizer51>
in that context it helps to kick
<whitequark>
... physically
<wpwrak>
too much effort
<DocScrutinizer51>
you don't want suckers like him badmouthing you and the project
<DocScrutinizer51>
because you didn't explain to him already what IS layout and why he doesn't need it
<DocScrutinizer51>
"dunno whats gerber files but you disclose them or you're rogue"
<DocScrutinizer51>
jackass
<wpwrak>
i'd be interested in the layout. well, in a form i can read. eagle wouldn't do me much good.
<DocScrutinizer51>
indeed
<DocScrutinizer51>
and you can get all 8 layers as pdf any time
<wpwrak>
publishing all the stuff also enables you to get external reviews
<DocScrutinizer51>
but NOOOOO, estel insists in eagle .brd
<wpwrak>
well, .brd is the most complete form. so that makes sense, if he's able to process it. but then, even if he isn't, someone else could produce the kind of extracts he'd find useful. (that is, if he's really interested ... i'm always a bit suspicious of the types who mention FSF approval)
<DocScrutinizer51>
check out tmo neo900 subtread "is it fair to call 100% open..."
<DocScrutinizer51>
swalking, afk
<DocScrutinizer51>
waking even
<DocScrutinizer51>
o/
<wpwrak>
i think i spotted it but then decided that i didn't have to contribute to it at the moment (and you know my point of view on openness already)
<wpwrak>
heh, swaying ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
openness is ok when you can do it. Bitching wanna be customers who complain about not getting more than been promised are not ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
bitching jackass calling you names and sprading lies about you is absolutely not ok at all
* DocScrutinizer05
ponders trying the Estel way: go to next pub, pick one of the dudes sitting there and start bitching at him about he shall buy you a beer and a vodka. Calling him names and explaining that he's always been a stingy sucker and an antisocial hooligan who beats up every pub he visits. Then when he tells me to stop, spit in his face and wait for others to stand up and tell something like >>Everyone has there own problems in
<DocScrutinizer05>
real life, and we come here to just relax and have some fun and do/make things that we like, not to fight!<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
will definitely make for a great evening