<wpwrak>
i guess it would almost make sense to add "tags" to certificates, so that one could revoke a tag and with it all the certs that have it
<wpwrak>
(of course, the few sites who weren't affected by heartbleed would complain bitterly if they had to renew their certs due to revocation-by-tag ...)
<wpwrak>
those ads for moving stuff into the cloud are almost writing themselves ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I just came up with a (life) risk assessment unit for missions (like to compare mars mission to jogging): LD50/99, LD for Lethal Duration. A jogger has probably 70(-age)/100(-age), means of a test group of joggers 50% are dead with 70 years old, 99% are dead with 100y
<wpwrak>
a common metric is LD<percentage>/<duration>, meaning that, after exposure to ingredient X, <percentage>% of the test subject population have perished within <duration>
<wpwrak>
a bit more meaningful than the ordinary LD50 that doesn't take into account time
<whitequark>
wpwrak: you'd make a good GLaDOW
<whitequark>
*GLaDOS
<whitequark>
"test subject population", hehe
<wpwrak>
(-:C
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>The big question left? Why a fire at one location seemed to have such a large affect on the company's devices and services<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
bwahaha
<DocScrutinizer05>
those guys are so damn pretty clueless
<DocScrutinizer05>
about how android works
<wpwrak>
"because we don't know how to design such a thing"
<DocScrutinizer05>
or rather, how smartphone shit in general works
<DocScrutinizer05>
or rahter, how sw licensing of non-FOSS stuff works today
<wpwrak>
it's basically a "ping - can anyone hear me" ? doesn't carry any real information
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<wpwrak>
i think it nicely demonstrates how product obsolescence will be implemented in the not too distant future
<DocScrutinizer05>
bzzz false: *got* implemented during last few years already
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nokia HARM did it
<wpwrak>
i mean we're already getting stories of this and that cloud-based or internet-centric company folding and customers left with mere days to save whatever they can
<DocScrutinizer05>
even Nokia fremantle maps already did it
<DocScrutinizer05>
and seems even jolla does it
<wpwrak>
sounds like a must-have feature for neo900 :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
"no registration to our server, no authentication on app startup, ->no app starting up"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"no software update of course"
<wpwrak>
each time you unlock it, it pings joerg personally. if he's asleep (hah, fat chance for that) or otherwise unreachable, you're denied service :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe sounds like a dream. A nightmare
<DocScrutinizer05>
for +me*
<wpwrak>
i kinda wonder why the iGadgets don't do that. perhaps Jobs wasn't that much of a control freak after all ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
smarter such schemes include a timer that allows using the app for a certain timespan without connectivity, after a successful authentication and "lease" from the company central scrutinizer server
<wpwrak>
heaven no. they use that in DNS ! no no, we have to find some proprietary concept
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically jobs been too early for that scheme to fly.that's why iOS changed from initial concept which been 100% web apps towards a 99% autonomous architecture that actually stores stuff locally and doesn't need 24/7 connectivity to work
<DocScrutinizer05>
nowadays nobody is concerned about 24/7 connectivity (or the lack thereof) anymore. after all when you got no carrier signal for your phone, you also don't need your contacts and prolly neither your calendar or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
so more and more system architectures depend on 24/7 connectivity. For sure stuff like maps apps do, to authenticate to the map server every time, even while the tiles are maybe already in local cache
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet siri and the similar crap on winphone is also an off-board aka web service
<DocScrutinizer05>
aka client server architecture
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're going back to the times of mainframes
<DocScrutinizer05>
connectivity becoming a single point of failure
<DocScrutinizer05>
when IMAP got invented?
<whitequark>
'86
<wpwrak>
NSA and samsung are doing a good job at making people aware that this may not be such a great idea. of course, it'll take a while and more incidents to sink in
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: see, the idea lingers around forever
<DocScrutinizer05>
or rather, for 25 years
<whitequark>
IMAP is not bad. it surely beats POP3 in a world where I may want to access my mail from more than a single device
<wpwrak>
and you can always use it as if it was pop
<whitequark>
a good IMAP client would cache the data locally, like the android one does
<DocScrutinizer05>
in times where literally nobody even in developer community had the "joy" to work on a terminal connected to a mainframe infra via a pay-per-minute dialup connection, and everybody enjoys 24/7-always-on-connectivity at flat rate, it will take a bit longer until things change for the better again. right now they are changing for the worse, at ever increasing speed
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: (us like POP) that's astonishingly difficult and cumbersome
<DocScrutinizer05>
use*
<whitequark>
pointless in the first place
<whitequark>
I use IMAP because I *want* my mail to be stored remotely
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, pointless as long as your mail server offer proper POP3
<whitequark>
I don't have a desktop, and every device I have on myself, i.e. every device I have, is expendable
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas some server admins decide to deliberately not offer POP
<DocScrutinizer05>
in POP I can opt for "leave mail on server" and "delete mail on server after expiry of guard period"
<DocScrutinizer05>
in IMAP moving a mail from IMAP dir to a local dir on one server really creates a cascade of funny events
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: i remember the modem days very well :) even built my own 300 bps acoustic coupler. used first with the VC-20 (VIC-20), then used the VC-20 as "gateway" to my CPC-464. the CPC had lots of memory and a good resolution, while the VC-20 had a UART ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/server/client
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "in IMAP moving a mail from IMAP dir to a local dir on one client really creates a cascade of funny events"
<wpwrak>
fetchmail handles imap just fine. that's how i get all my mails. (and i keep a read-only copy of everything on the server)
<DocScrutinizer05>
err wut?
<DocScrutinizer05>
how would you do that for the average web.de or gmx.net server ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latest when I have to keep my /trash/SAPM/ dir on the IMAP server and local spamassassin in cooperation with the mail client has to upload mails to that SPAM dir, I lose my humor with IMAP
<DocScrutinizer05>
then there are MLs. I got ML: business, f, g, h, private. I got three mail clients on 3 device. client 1 has business, f,g, h in 4 dirs, client 2 has all 5 in separate dirs, client 3 has f,g,h,private all in one common ML dir
<wpwrak>
well, i have my own server. my server, my rules :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
real fun with IMAP
<wpwrak>
and yes, if you need to share mails between devices, imap (and leaving them on the server) is one of the few choices you have
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, POP3 and leaving them on the server is the better choice
<whitequark>
does POP3 even have folders?
<DocScrutinizer05>
leaving them on the server untl either the "slowest" of your clinets downloaded them, or alternatively exoire them after maybe 2 weeks or somesuch
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: huh?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I get a new client, do I also need to manually organize all my mail on it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: luckily it doesn't, it has no such idiotic concept of it's-like-webdav-but-not-really
<whitequark>
so yes
<whitequark>
I can't classify your system as anything but "incredibly moronic"
<whitequark>
so no*. anyway
<whitequark>
it's unusable
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever it is for you, for me it works way better than any fucking imap forcing me to have identical dir structures on all my clients
<DocScrutinizer05>
"OMG that's unbearable, I have to *choose* what to do"
<whitequark>
exactly
<wpwrak>
slavery is freedom :)
<whitequark>
too much pointless work. sure, if you like bureaucracy and useless shuffling of documents, it will probably fit well
<DocScrutinizer05>
how about you two guys found a club "slaves of IMAP"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
IMAP for sure is great when you wanna waer another "smart"phone of the day with the right color, every day of the week, and still all shall look identical by their UX
<DocScrutinizer05>
I defitely need a different mail config on my smartphone than on my laptop than on my workstation
<DocScrutinizer05>
definitely*
<wpwrak>
my use of imap comes from openmoko. anyway, it doesn't matter to fetchmail. all i want are my mails :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know, that's incredibly moronic, since ... who's going to distinguish between work and private nowadays. Particularly on their IT
<DocScrutinizer05>
</sarcasm>
<DocScrutinizer05>
</sarcasm> (another one, so i really get rid of this huge amount)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: if I had only one client (or MTA) then I wouln't even think about IMAP, it's just another protocol to transfer mail then. But then, why would I need IMAP then, at all?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: and yes, it's been the damn OM server that never did (and doesn't) offer POP3, and it's the only account where I have to mess around with this friggin IMAP
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the only account that gave me like half a dozen mega disasters during the years I'm using it, from all mails getting deleted from server thanks to an oppsie on one braindamaged client, to all mails which stay on server probably getting leaked to the hacker who rooted the box
<DocScrutinizer05>
no hacker ever rooted any of my local machines, neither any of my exposed boxes (though those don't hold any mails except maybe those of last 10 min)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and whn somebody now says "you should accept encrypted mail only, so you don't care when it gets stolen from the IMAP server which you can't control or administrate" then I gonna wake up my killer bat army and send them out to him as soon as sun sets
<whitequark>
nah, there's a simpler way
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't use mail, yeah
<whitequark>
I never agree to *collect* my mail from anyone else's server; I just set up a redirect from there to a single point that I own
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, create a single point of failure. Nicely defeats the purpose of having multiple accounts
<DocScrutinizer05>
and guess what, OM mailserver didn't even offer mail forwarding
<whitequark>
it's a single point where I set up filters *once*, set up backups *once*, and point all my clients to it *once*
<whitequark>
and the downtime though the last three years was prolly lower than that of GMail
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, can't help but notice you don't get it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also have a single point of setting up my filters: the clinet to which the filters apply
<wpwrak>
whitequark: where's the constant struggle to fill your life with purpose ? and see, you can't even get a good rant out of it ! look at DocScrutinizer05, he's been going on about this for an hours or two. that's how the experts do it :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I however can ask wpwrak to send the mail to my web.de account when OM once more cocks up or his account is messed up and doesn't send stuff to OM, or whatever the problem
<whitequark>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, an hour is a mild punishment for "moronic"
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: you also don't get it, my mailserver is infrastructure that *I* control
<whitequark>
and in the unlikely case that Linode fails, it has daily backups to a different country, continent and company
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually I won't stop until the other part admits that their mental capacity is insufficient to judge which of my actions are moronic
<whitequark>
which can be restored in under a hour
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: I well got that, but that tells me what? to move my web.de account to your server. or what?
<whitequark>
to your own, I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, than thanks for this moronic suggestion, since I can't guarantee the uptime of any such server either
<DocScrutinizer05>
then*
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I can't move my web.de account to somewhere else, since... well I bet you can imagine why
<DocScrutinizer05>
if not, do w a `whois web.de`
<whitequark>
it reduces the possible range of problems to two: 1. server went down entirely, 2. you broke it. from... (amount of accounts × amount of idiotic decisions owners of servers behind those accounts make)
<DocScrutinizer05>
aha
<whitequark>
I don't think I touched my mail config in four years or so. that deals with point 2.
<DocScrutinizer05>
this finally gave away that you don't get it
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course a web.de -> my_client is much less stable and more prone to downtimes for whatever reason than a web.de->my_MX_server->my_client
<DocScrutinizer05>
</irony>
<DocScrutinizer05>
since it seems that's needed to not let a chance somebody thinks this been serious
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you call my management "moronic"??
<whitequark>
in my case, the server is anything but forwarder. it is an aggregator
<whitequark>
once I have mail there, I know that I will be able to access it no matter what web.de decides to do with their boxes tomorrow
<whitequark>
and I will be able to access it even if I get robbed of every single device I have
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what? what do you think I know about +my* mail, sitting comfortably local on my HDD I can see down there?
<whitequark>
until said HDD chokes and dies
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't get robbed
<DocScrutinizer05>
*shrug*
<whitequark>
lol, life advice by DocScrutinizer05. "-- how to get rich? -- start by not being poor"
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for the talk, had a lot of laughs! no for something more meaningful, like watching TV
<wpwrak>
hmm, ubuntu stopped launching ntpd. how quaint. so i've been living a few minutes in the past for the last weeks.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: why do you even *use* that
<wpwrak>
because i like to have accurate time ?
<whitequark>
do you feel like not enough of your searches go to google and now voluntarily send even more to amazon? ;)
<whitequark>
no, ubuntu
<wpwrak>
oh, it's reasonably painless to use. grew tires of days of compilation of gentoo, and eventually find that, if i didn't upgrade often enough, the chain would be broken and my old systems wuold become completely un-upgradeable
<whitequark>
why not plain debian?
<wpwrak>
and what would go to amazon ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(robbed) your problem when you rely on a remote box for your sole means of "data security". I use proper *local* and *remote* backup schemes for that, I only seen incidences so far with damn IMAP and damn OM server
<wpwrak>
at least back then debian didn't have so much stuff and what they had was often ancient
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I find debian testing reasonably stable and up-to-date
<whitequark>
can't really recall the last time they broke something for me
<wpwrak>
well, one of these days ubuntu will pass my pain threshold. but i'm not all that eager anymore to migrate. it does get a little boring after the first dozen times ...
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<wpwrak>
well, half a dozen. i think my sequence was: linus boot+root -> MCL -> SLS -> Slackware -> Red Hat (for a long time) -> (tried Debian on some systems) -> Gentoo (for a long time) -> Ubuntu (for a long time)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
gentoo vs buntkuh, seems ther are at least a *few* quite reasonable alternatives in between
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<wpwrak>
i guess after the mail rant we'll now get the distro tantrum ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw to poll OM mailserver from my own box, i had to move account credentials for logging in to a *commercial* mission-critical infra to a box exposed to the net. I guess doing so would be enough of a reason to get fired instantly
<DocScrutinizer05>
while OM infra isn't mission critical anymore, due to lack of mission, it been when I got thta account
<DocScrutinizer05>
that*
* DocScrutinizer05
just found a good new way to test qualification of applicants for a sysop position
<qi-bot>
[commit] Paul Cercueil: Allow to map actions to keyboard keys and joystick keys at the same time (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/5fa8919
<DocScrutinizer05>
(gentoo vs buntkuh) I'm far from suggesting opensuse (though I think it's a great distro). There are others too, like fedora, centOS, a 1 billion users on debian...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
lol, xkcd also states "fav astronomical object: plejades" - same here
<DocScrutinizer05>
N24 TV (or the station producing this "report") goes nuts now: they not only mute "fucking" with a beep, they actually, beliefe it or not, blurr the picture to hide the mouth of the one saying it
<DocScrutinizer05>
believe*
<DocScrutinizer05>
only the small section of picture to cover the complete mouth
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's *beeep* insane. Why the *beep* don't they simply cut out those 300ms completely?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it's actually been that guy roundabout in middle of the trailer for 0.5s, who also does the bat suit thing and said sth like "it's fucking awesome" (not in the trailer)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the two vultures taking down the parachuter are incredible
<wpwrak>
so vultures do hunt :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously, only this time it been a kamikaze hunt
<DocScrutinizer05>
the bird got bondaged in the strings of the parachute and went down togehter with the guy
<DocScrutinizer05>
dang, tied?
<DocScrutinizer05>
entangled
<wpwrak>
ah, vulture failing to keep work (hunting) and pleasure (bondage) apart :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
vulture is a pretty strange word, to me at least. And not only becuase it looks like a typo of culture
<DocScrutinizer05>
it also sounds feminine case
<DocScrutinizer05>
and kinda like one of those "only plural exists" words like fish or sheep
<DocScrutinizer05>
but there's "vultures" which doesn't look that strange anymore, for a word
<wpwrak>
hmm, seems to come from latin, "vultur". basically unmodified.
<DocScrutinizer05>
does this have a "meanig"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
meaning even
<DocScrutinizer05>
most words don't, beyond their own meaning, Some names however actually mean something
<wpwrak>
100 mil dual (2xN configuration) headers use 50 mil cable ...
<wpwrak>
if you have 1xN, you can still use a 2xN connector. it'll hang a bit in the air, though
<sb0>
it's 2x10 2.54mm
<sb0>
ah, so it's good
<wpwrak>
or you do it the traditional way and do the wiring manually (i.e., spread out the ribbon at the end)
<wpwrak>
so, no problem :)
<wpwrak>
good that they didn't have the 100 mil cable at a less obscene price ;-)
<wpwrak>
the whole rolls are still pricy at digi-key, but they also have them as "value added item", cut to more reasonable sizes
<sb0>
ah, yes, the *connector* pitch is 2.54mm on a more reasonably priced cable. it's kinda confusing they say "Pitch - Mating Interface 1.27mm" in the doc
<sb0>
I guess they mean the cable's mating interface
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<wpwrak>
"connector pitch" ? that sounds like a weird parameter :)
<wpwrak>
especially if it's different from the cable's pitch :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
<DocScrutinizer05>
problems with usual IDE connector type post arrays?
<wpwrak>
cable data sheet apparently specifying properties of the "far" side of the connector. not really the cable's business ...
<wpwrak>
naw, i think he was just confused about the parameters
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw you can use 50mil for the 100mil single row post connectors, just every second cable unused
<DocScrutinizer05>
wire, rather
<wpwrak>
yes, that's what i proposed in case he had 1xN header. but he has 2xN, so no problem
<sb0>
I'm buying complete cable assemblies - I don't have the tools for IDC, and they're pricy
<sb0>
and the docs of the assemblies mention the cable (wire) pitch, not the connector pitch, which is why I was confused
<wpwrak>
of course, the usual approach for 1xN is to use nible chinese fingers to make the cable ...
<wpwrak>
niMble
<wpwrak>
(or a clumsy western emulation thereof)
<wpwrak>
sb0: for the ribbon cable connectors where you just squeeze the top bar onto the body, you don't really need special tools. just anything reasonably hard and flat will do
<sb0>
I've seen people doing that, and the resulting cables weren't reliable
<wpwrak>
advantage over assemblies is that you can pick the cable size you want and don't need to stock a gazillion of lengths and widths
<sb0>
one of these people has even been a customer and I had to deal with serial ports that mysteriously stopped working etc. :)
<wpwrak>
(not reliable) hmm, never had a problem. well, not sure how often it use the proper tool and how often i'm too lazy to look for it
<wpwrak>
ah, nice billable hours :)
<wpwrak>
#s/often it/often i/
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, spreading the cable into a "delta" actually isn't the best idea. it causes asymmetries and thus signal propagation delay skew
<sb0>
DocScrutinizer05, do those cables work well for LVDS by the way?
<DocScrutinizer05>
which cables?
<sb0>
ribbon IDC 50mil cable pitch
<DocScrutinizer05>
why not
<DocScrutinizer05>
should work
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless you have tuned impedance, in which case the impedance of cable might not match
<sb0>
well, idk about the characteristic impedance of a pair of wires on this cable
<wpwrak>
(delta) usually not a concern at the speeds where you do that
<DocScrutinizer05>
but when the signal is on a post conector, you could bet on the 50mil cable being just fine for connecting it
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: caveat - the one asking now about the cable impedance is also the one who put the connector into the design :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh
<wpwrak>
wikipedia is fun: "Knowledge of the impedance is one step toward understanding and control of interference that may be caused by ribbon cables."
<wpwrak>
such subtle sarcasm :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
then you should have asked that question earlier in design process ;-)
<wpwrak>
(impedance) the cable data sheet generally has such characteristics, too
<sb0>
standard parts 1) are ugly 2) never fit together
<sb0>
but they have the advantage of being just expensive
<sb0>
not horribly expensive
<sb0>
(and by "standard", I mean "stocked somewhere" - dual source is a luxury here)
<DocScrutinizer05>
print it! ;-)
<wpwrak>
mill it ! :)
<wpwrak>
or just dunk the whole thing in silicone ;-)
<wpwrak>
or encase it in a resin. that could actually work :)
<sb0>
I'm going to have to make 3 PCBs, one for the screen, plus one for each group of buttons, and connect the pots with flying wire
<sb0>
just because all those stupid parts can't have compatible heights
<wpwrak>
if you apply some anti-adhesive to the PCB, you may even be able to remove the resin by cutting it at the height of the PCB
<sb0>
and I fucking hate that
<wpwrak>
pick the same family of connectors for everything ?
<wpwrak>
ah, you mean height if things above PCB
<wpwrak>
#s/if/of/
<sb0>
I need: buttons, rotary encoder with pushbutton, slide potentiometer, rotary potentiometers, screen
<sb0>
and NOTHING is compatible
<wpwrak>
you could get parts designed for panel mounting
<wpwrak>
of course, this merely shifts the problem
<wpwrak>
but you can at least mount them in a very solid way
<sb0>
e.g. after a lot of search, I could find a rotary encoder and a rotary pot with the same shaft and bushing configuration
<sb0>
but OF COURSE, they HAVE to use different heights for their bodies (i.e. distance between the shaft/bushing and the PCB)
<sb0>
and that's just for 2 parts, add buttons, screen, slide potentiometer and you're on the way to ME hell
<DocScrutinizer05>
normal :-D
<wpwrak>
well, as i said, you can panel-mount. that's designed to solve precisely this sort of problem
<sb0>
of course, attaching the mainboard, HDMI/DVI connectors, etc. is again another story ...
<sb0>
yeah that's what I'm going to do
<sb0>
it's interesting that in their product brochures button manufacturers always show panels with only one type of button :-)
<wpwrak>
or if you feel adventurous, you can mix flexible circuit with PCB and have a suitable support structure for the little PCBs.
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you do what they did in ancient times, when the push-pull powerbutton of Hameg scope been at front panel but the actual switch at rear panel
<sb0>
but then I have to build axes of suitable lengths
<wpwrak>
more messy mechanics
<sb0>
and yes
<sb0>
I don't have so much space in the case anyway
<sb0>
note that there's only ONE way of doing it for less than 500€ per raw case, and that's using an already made diecast aluminum enclosure
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/at rear/close to rear/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "or you do what they did in ancient times, when the push-pull powerbutton of Hameg scope been at front panel but the actual switch close to rear panel"
<sb0>
and the choice is extremely limited there
<sb0>
(additionally those cases have surface finish problems)
<wpwrak>
it's all a question of volume :)
<sb0>
and sets the height of the device to a 63mm that costs a fortune to be changed
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<sb0>
I HATE MECHANICAL ENGINERING!!!
<wpwrak>
i find premade cases too inflexible
<wpwrak>
why not mill the stuff out of acrylic ? that may be cheaper in the end. you can buy a lot of machine-hours for EUR 500 ...
<sb0>
acrylic doesn't look good and is fragile
<wpwrak>
if you need Al for strength, use plates or simple profiles
<sb0>
of course, you will not have missed the idiotic screw in the middle
<wpwrak>
looks pretty bomb-proof ;-)
<sb0>
which is going to bump into any reasonably placed connector in any design
<sb0>
so of course I'm going to have to mill that crap away
<sb0>
but it's the least shitty I've found that doesn't cost 50k€
<wpwrak>
screw in the middle ? i see 8 holes and 6 screws ...
<sb0>
the screw in the middle of each side
<sb0>
where you always want to put a connector ...
<wpwrak>
use smaller connectors :)
<wpwrak>
centered connectors are boring anyway
<wpwrak>
how painful will be milling into the sides ? that's kinda difficult with the simpler type of mills
<sb0>
oh, tell me about it...
<wpwrak>
going 4-5 axis ? :)
<sb0>
note that the side of the case is sligthly angled, too
<wpwrak>
well, you could also etch the critter
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd going to ask details like "what device is this meant to become, what mounting and environmental conditions, which number of builds, and so on... but I feel like having a walk to burger king
<wpwrak>
(angled) ah, didn't notice. more fun for the mill :)
<sb0>
yeah, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that can however looks like made for RF, or automotive
<sb0>
they HAD to do that
<sb0>
and that stupid screw in the middle
<DocScrutinizer05>
and with automotive I mean engine controller, mounted next to engine
<wpwrak>
so have you found a shop that will mill it for you ? or do you now have a nice industrial-grade mill in your living room ? :)
<sb0>
yeah, I found a shop
<sb0>
which was a bit of fun, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
for an exposed visible case it looks terribly ugly
<sb0>
yeah, it needs some surface finish
<DocScrutinizer05>
even then
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess there's a reason why you don't go for dirt cheap simple double U steel case?
<DocScrutinizer05>
IP67?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or RF-shielding to the max
<DocScrutinizer05>
this case doesn't look like it was made for any other purpose or usecase
<sb0>
hm, what's wrong besides the surface finish?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you named a few points already
<sb0>
but nothing about the look
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: double-U stell is even more fun to mill ...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't comment for the look, it looks assuringly sturdy... for a thyristor ignition in your car
<wpwrak>
stEEl
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: depends
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can always mount it at edge of mill desk, with the huge part of it downwards below the table
<wpwrak>
well, the set of mills that can do steel is a subset of the set of mills that can do Al :)
<sb0>
I've tried painting one, and it doesn't look like something to be mounted next to a car engine anymore
<DocScrutinizer05>
the get a double U alu case ;-P
<wpwrak>
hmm, in many case, the part that goes below would hit something
<sb0>
of course, that paint doesn't stick well and scratches etc.
<wpwrak>
what paint did you use ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's this? alu? painting alu is an art
<sb0>
just spray paint
<sb0>
tamiya color
<sb0>
and yes it wasn't painted right
<sb0>
I was just trying out how it would look like with a different surface
<sb0>
and it looks fine
<wpwrak>
acrylic. yeah, that would explain the scratching :)
<sb0>
yeah
<sb0>
hammond mfg also have a powder coated black version
<sb0>
haven't gotten my hands on one of them yet
<wpwrak>
for that sort of thing, you'll probably want epoxy paint. also available as aerosol. (or airbrush it)
<DocScrutinizer05>
powder coating is for sure better than painting
<sb0>
would be nice if it looked acceptably good, so I wouldn't have to deal with powder coating it myself
<sb0>
in addition to all the other expensive and painful mech problems in this project
<wpwrak>
the powder coating applied before the milling may not survive the latter too well
<sb0>
according to hammond it does
<sb0>
also hammond can do the milling, so it becomes their problem :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, PE protective film
<wpwrak>
(one-stop shopping) neat :)
<sb0>
also it'll be somehow satisfying to make them mill away their stupid center screw
<wpwrak>
you'll still have to plug the hole with something ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly, those cases are a PITA, I seen them and dealt with them. E.G they often lack any mounting support inside
<sb0>
I'll just use screws + spacers on the bottom to attach the PCB
<sb0>
that's actually not too hard, for once
<wpwrak>
how about an acrylic "sandwich" with Al caps ? that may also look pretty nice, easier to mill, and probably sufficiently solid
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you have screws going though the bottom and then you put spacers over them from the other side and then place the PCB on those screws inside that "pool" and then put nuts on the screw, also inside the pool, while holding the 4(?) screws from the outside so the don't fall out?
<sb0>
like the M1 case but with aluminum on top/bottom?
<DocScrutinizer05>
good luck!
* DocScrutinizer05
already prepares the mdical emergency packet to send to sb0
<sb0>
DocScrutinizer05, the cover is the bottom
<wpwrak>
no, like a cigarette box with Al (with a bit of a sidewall) on the small sides
<DocScrutinizer05>
then good luck mounting all your front panel components
<sb0>
attach PCB to cover with screws and spacers, and mount cover with PCB on it
<sb0>
after the front panels components are attached of course
<wpwrak>
so you'd have to find suitable Al caps, but the rest would be relatively simple. you'd still need a 4D mill, or a total of >= 3 acrylic pieces for the "sandwich"
<sb0>
oh and btw, the spacers are threaded
<sb0>
so they hold with just the screw
<sb0>
and the front panel PCB attaches to the main PCB with the ribbon cable I mentioned earlier
<sb0>
my first idea was to stack it directly, but it's even more mechanical hell, e.g. because all the "standard" parts are incompatible as I said
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, up to you. I get headache seeing such stuff again. Last time I had to touch a similar design to repair sth, I swore to never again go near any of those
<wpwrak>
did you have a look into the fadefox critter ? that device has a ton of different elements
<sb0>
I was planning to...
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's spritzdruckguss in english? Just to let you kmow what I rather don't want to touch again
<sb0>
financial disaster?
<DocScrutinizer05>
high pressure die casting
<sb0>
yeah, alternative translation
<DocScrutinizer05>
that case is exactly that
<sb0>
what do you recommend then?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and prolly cost an arm and a leg
<whitequark>
injection molding is apparently the more common term
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: right
* DocScrutinizer05
blames ding
<wpwrak>
die casting doesn't have to be super-expensive. you can also make die from Al. they last only for about 1000 uses, but that's probably good enough to get started
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean, there are like a zillion relatively cheap and often convenient cases available
<wpwrak>
the company from which i bought my mill made little demo pieces of translucent plastic that produced a very good-looking image of Carlos Gardel when held against the light
<wpwrak>
they said the milled the die (one piece) themselves. then the production cost something like USD 1000 (not entirely sure about the price, but in any case it was pretty low)
<sb0>
but then should any pot etc. change for any reason (eg going out of stock) I have to make a new mold
<sb0>
not to mention mistakes
<wpwrak>
you can probably make samples at home, e.g., with wax. when things fit, you move to the fab with plastics
<wpwrak>
and yes, if your geometry changes, the tweaking begins
<wpwrak>
but then, if you've been reasonably careful with your choice of components, that shouldn't happen all that often
<sb0>
DocScrutinizer05, so what exactly is wrong with the hammond die-cast aluminum enclosure, that another off-the-shelf case would solve better?
<wpwrak>
(and tweaking can just mean to manually modify a case, e.g., add spacer material or dremel off something. doesn't have to be too fancy.)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just clumsy to handle, starts with the middle screw that is only there for RF/IP67
<sb0>
that can be milled away
<wpwrak>
(and spacer material itself can have a complex structure)
<DocScrutinizer05>
then the bulges
<sb0>
what bulges? inside?
<sb0>
they don't bump into anything (except the middle one), my PCB is smaller than the case
<DocScrutinizer05>
then it#s often impossible to mount stuff to the case, into that cup
<wpwrak>
the middle screw can probably stay. you can always cut the column after the screw. since you'll have a rather flexible mill at hand anyway ..
<DocScrutinizer05>
sometimes it even breaks on closing the screws
<sb0>
those cases break on closing the screws?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I had some that did
<wpwrak>
when DocScrutinizer05 forgot to close the mercury bottle ... ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's 'guss'
<DocScrutinizer05>
no?
<wpwrak>
and yes, not all Al are identical. there are fairly brittle alloys
<DocScrutinizer05>
mutch too hard and brittle
<wpwrak>
i suppose you just have to trust them that they did their part properly
<DocScrutinizer05>
much*
<sb0>
that's hammond's problem, yes
* DocScrutinizer05
waves
* DocScrutinizer05
closes that conrad browser window
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't even know if you maybe actually build a thyristor ignition for car engine. So why should I contine trying to figure better alternatives for an unknown usecase, just because I think that this case is for exactly two usecases which I dunno if you maybe even have one of those two
<wpwrak>
they do specify a "recommended torque". that suggests that they have at least thought about the issue :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess you could build your device even inside a glass bottle. Will it be easy? prolly no. will it be unique? for sure. Will it be expensive or inconvenient? hell yes
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: he's building a video mixer. digital in, digital out. with a few control knobs and faders and a display
<DocScrutinizer05>
stage?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or studio?
<sb0>
stage
<DocScrutinizer05>
then it's actually not all that bad a case
<wpwrak>
sb0: oh, and if you don't mind a little plastic, an approach with top and bottom Al plates could actually be nice, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
once assembled those critters are relatively sturdy, and heavy enough to not move around on somebody taking a deep breath
<DocScrutinizer05>
the don't tend to "sing" when you hit them
<sb0>
yeah, and video cables are a bit stiff, so it's good to have weight
<wpwrak>
make two plastic shells (split at mid-height for connector openings) for the sides, put holes into them for the vertical metal spacers,
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
for stage equipment this is actually the right case
<wpwrak>
(move around) maybe glue some rubber mat at the bottom
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<sb0>
I was planning to glue rubber feet
<DocScrutinizer05>
glued feet will vanish during weeks
<sb0>
hmm, I've seen some good quality ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
hard to find, but yes, the exist
<wpwrak>
if they vanish, you can sell spares ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they*
<DocScrutinizer05>
mat sounds nice
<wpwrak>
you can even hide the screws under it :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
since the screws are at front panel aiui
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh nope
<DocScrutinizer05>
nm
<DocScrutinizer05>
cheers
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<sb0>
yeah, I still need to figure out a way - if possible at all and somehow reasonable - to avoid screws on the front panel
<sb0>
maybe by welding those threaded spacers, but that sounds difficult and expensive
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<wpwrak>
you could have a thin Al sheet on top, as "front panel"
<sb0>
anyway, bedtime for now
<sb0>
bbl
<wpwrak>
then you don't need to paint the rest of the box so much
<wpwrak>
sweet dreams :)
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<whitequark>
OH
<whitequark>
I just realized why a (metalworking) mill is called so
<whitequark>
(because back in the days it would be powered by a water wheel or wind and some blades... like a grain mill!)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: you can prolly answer my question
<whitequark>
in file:///home/whitequark/Downloads/327216.pdf they show that an USB 3.0 *cable* (among other parts) will emit RF noise
<whitequark>
but how?! the signal is transmitted over a differential twisted pair in shielding
<whitequark>
there should be no emission, not even at -95dB that they show
<whitequark>
actually I'm lost as to whoever genius selected 5GHz as the carrier frequency, knowing that it will interfere with the ISM band
<wpwrak>
i suppose no shielding is perfect ?
<whitequark>
well, it seems like a rather lot of shielding machinery thrown on the problem
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<wpwrak>
i mean, it's a plug, so there must be some gaps. and since RF loves to crawl on surfaces, ...