<DocScrutinizer05>
Alexandr Djagilew >>nobody sane in maind has any objections<< 7:31
<DocScrutinizer05>
mind*
<wpwrak>
what's the background ? blue wall with grafitti and people ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I could understand whe whitequark is asking this, since the comment is in german language. But you?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-04-23 Wed 00:42:07] <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: congrats, your moscow streets get nicer now. Don't dare to think otherwise! The project manager clearly stated that those who don't like this project are not of a sane state of mind [2014-04-23 Wed 00:44:00] <DocScrutinizer05> "Putin" painting walls with graffiti showing Krim in russian colors, and of course the logo i´of his party next to it <DocScrutinizer05> I seem to
<DocScrutinizer05>
recall they said "2000 walls"
<wpwrak>
ah :)
<wpwrak>
well, standard propaganda, i guess. painting it on walls seems a little antiquated, but whatever ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
funny enough, even the local party representative thinks it's NOT ok to link those graffitis to the party
<wpwrak>
honestly, i have no clue what would be considered proper form for propaganda in russia :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly, are you all on datavolume quota or do I sense an almost religios aversion against watching any movies not published on youtube?
<DocScrutinizer05>
why don't you simply watch from 6:36
<wpwrak>
movies are extremely disruptive. and right now, YT seems to have cooked up some incompatibility with chromium, so i can't even watch them in the browser
<DocScrutinizer05>
disruptive?
<wpwrak>
you can't just have a quick peek and move on
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, a problem for those with an attention span of <20 seconds
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole report is an unbearable 2:30 or less
<wpwrak>
you have to stop, wait until the stuff loads, maybe wait until the ads are over, then listen to whatever irrelevant stuff is in the clip, maybe get some interruptions because streaming sucks, and so on
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm
<DocScrutinizer05>
either that or your carefully cultivated prejudice about propaganda in German TV might suffer
<wpwrak>
and of course you never say why you think it would be worth watching it. you just post a cryptic url without much further comment. e.g., www.youtube.com/q=Xt36757 vs. "here's putin in his underpants"
<DocScrutinizer05>
again mhm
<DocScrutinizer05>
I see, 8h is way beyond any reasonable memory, not to use the term attention span which wouldn't be to the point for recalling a post I made some max 100 lines above
<wpwrak>
i don't necessarily read all discussions that seem to be just between two people ...
<wpwrak>
or three, whatever. i may read stuff also when i'm merely bored, but then i try to avoid having to kill a lot of time ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
You might not care, since it's far from where you live. But I got friends in Moskow and Kiew, and generally we're worried here in Europe about how Putin seems to consistently push towards cold or even hot war
<DocScrutinizer05>
and brainwashing masses in Russia is just one detail in that whole issue
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sending 1000s of special military forces to Donjezk and other eastern ukraine cities to support a mob of maybe a few hundred criminal stupid fanatic separatists is another detail
<DocScrutinizer05>
that mob torturing and killing official legitimate politicians just because they publicly utter sympathy or just loyality for Kiew government is what makes things just more obvious
<DocScrutinizer05>
Putin calling fascists and illegitimate those hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating on Maidan square for literally months during hard winter, without doing much agression. While he calls "russian people that need protection" that mob of a few 100 teens with kalashnikov who didn't demonstrate at all but simply went burning down police stations and occupying military bases right away
<wpwrak>
seems that he lacks some refinement. he got the basics of justifying just about anything right, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry this is not on my list of things I care about
<wpwrak>
i guess the problem is that ukraine is a fairly large country. so you couldn't just make it a buffer zone between east and west, similar to the role of uruguay (before, argentina and brazil, well, or spain and portugal, had been at each other's throat all the time. having a little neutral country between them, than lowered the tensions considerably)
<wpwrak>
oops, delete the last "than"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I just wonder how weak that asshole actually must be to have to resort to this type of "politics"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe russian peole is more fed up by Putin than anybody outside Russia, well maybe except him, actually noticed so far
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/exc/anybody exc/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "maybe russian peole is more fed up by Putin than anybody outside Russia, well maybe anybody except him, actually noticed so far"
<DocScrutinizer05>
people*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder when he's going to have portraits of his fckng face everywhere, like the one with the beard in Cuba
<DocScrutinizer05>
or the other one in china
<DocScrutinizer05>
or that idiot in Irak
<DocScrutinizer05>
Seems Russian people is the only one that ever happened to get democratized by its leader and then is almost actively pushing to get back their dictator
<ysionneau>
I've seen some interviews in Russia during preparation of olympic games, Poutine's portrait was in a lot of places...
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm, already
<ysionneau>
In the houses of the privileged guys running some hotels or some big company involved with the olympics
<DocScrutinizer05>
no surprise
<ysionneau>
"friends" of poutines
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh, so just inhouse. Like the ubiquitous Fuehrerbild
<ysionneau>
yes inhouse
<ysionneau>
but I think it's already a good indication of how things are going
<ysionneau>
giving too much importance to the person of an executive is just wrong (in any country, and in France it's not good either)
<ysionneau>
All that should matter is the politics they apply, the decisions, the law passed etc
<ysionneau>
not who they are
<DocScrutinizer05>
your french spelling of the name has something mocking in it, sounds like sth to eat, a bird, or some sort of gay guy
<ysionneau>
but it's pronounced the exact same in French
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<larsc>
'putain de merde' I have to remember that one
<pcercuei>
not the exact same
<ysionneau>
ahah yep that's a very common one
<ysionneau>
pcercuei: well yes maybe I'm not an expert in linguistic, it might be slightly different, but I think most people would pronounce it the same
<pcercuei>
in French, Putin is pronounced Poutine
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, sure
<ysionneau>
well, if you read "Putin" in French, it's not "poutin", but the French word for "Putin" is indeed "Poutine"
<ysionneau>
that's what I wanted to say
<ysionneau>
sorry for the conversation switch :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pûtine?
<ysionneau>
pou , pronounced like in "poor"
<ysionneau>
(or almost)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, but I think poutine has emphasis on 'i'
<DocScrutinizer05>
while Putin has it on 'u'
<ysionneau>
ah yes I think so
<ysionneau>
usually it's hard to understand the word Putin prononced in a russian sentence for the French people
<ysionneau>
because of this difference in the location of the emphasis
<ysionneau>
at least for me
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<ysionneau>
anyway what are the last funny news about Putin?
<ysionneau>
I'm not following that much the news about Russia, Ukraine and such
<DocScrutinizer05>
nothing that funny, just the moscow graffiti artists now paint 2000 walls with motives that are giving him a smile when he's looking at them
<DocScrutinizer05>
ordered and paid for by Putin or whomever in the hierarchy
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course paid for by administration and basically advertisment for the party
<ysionneau>
ah that's Crimea in Russian colours
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course also advertisment and propaganda for putin's reactionary and nationalist politics
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<ysionneau>
humm not sure that's very clever to draw this everywhere
<ysionneau>
it's like remembering everyone "he look, we took that!"
<ysionneau>
I don't understand the text though
<ysionneau>
whitequark: are you not fed up everyone is tchit tchating about your country without knowing it really?
* ysionneau
honestly never went to Russia
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, they celebrate the prey very euphorically in TV and on 2000 walls now and in newspapers. He's brainwashing Russian people
<DocScrutinizer05>
and a considerable amount of russians already cheers "hail Putin"
<DocScrutinizer05>
another part demonstrates for "truth in TV", uttering their concerns about that brainwash, but those quickly get arrested or simply beaten away
<DocScrutinizer05>
usual procedure to deal with "non-authorized public meetings"
<DocScrutinizer05>
in eastern Ukraine similar pro-Kiew demonstrants get beaten up by "activists" or even get killed
<DocScrutinizer05>
or 20 year old militant pro-Putin gangsers (in a group of maybe 100) trow stones at 70 year old people walking by, and hit them in the face. Probably the old ones said something the young ones didn't like to hear
<DocScrutinizer05>
gangsters
<DocScrutinizer05>
the old people were a group of 2
<ysionneau>
that's a crazy situation ...
<ysionneau>
it's so terrible something like this can happen
<ysionneau>
what's even crazier, is that it's not some small country lost in the corner of the world and trying to hide from the world like North Korea
<ysionneau>
it's a big very well known country, very well integrated in the world economy
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, an only a 900km away from where I live
<ysionneau>
where are you, germany? which city? (I won't come to track you down)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nue
<ysionneau>
I don't even find it in maps :p
<ysionneau>
I find some place in Toronto called Nue
<DocScrutinizer05>
1 192.168.4.1 (192.168.4.1) 0.993 ms 1.356 ms 2.353 ms
<DocScrutinizer05>
2 192.168.178.1 (192.168.178.1) 10.213 ms 10.558 ms 10.869 ms
<DocScrutinizer05>
3 ppp-default.m-online.net (8.3.x.8) 29.988 ms 30.433 ms 31.469 ms
<wpwrak>
i took the inspiration from mickey and installed tomato. very nice and you don't have to re-learn the UI if you haven't touched it for a year or so
<whitequark>
openwrt gui is pretty great
<viric>
DocScrutinizer05: I guess it can't do much ipv6
<whitequark>
wrt54g is probably the worst router I've ever seen. broadcrap, and slow as hell at that
<whitequark>
like, my current uplink will saturate NAT running over it, and it's not even full 100mbit
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't mind (either of both)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
16Mb here, dl. 2 up. And yes, it's at 60% at times. So what?
<viric>
wrt54g is not for 100mbit wan :)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: dunno. I like to download 1080p. actually, a 1080p torrenting down saturates *one core* solely with checksumming the file
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I boggled from IPv6 so far, primarily because that needs config chages to the fritzbox which might cause network outage not only for me but for the whole house
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I can't access the FritzBox reset button physically
<wpwrak>
those russian bourgeois have too much money to spend on fancy routers and on bandwith :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Putin will chage that soon enough
<whitequark>
and that's at mere 50mbit (I'd get more but 11b/g spectrum is full of crap, and this router has only one PHY, and 11a is incompatible with devices my guests sometimes use)
<DocScrutinizer05>
lame excuses ;-P
<whitequark>
otherwise I'd long upgraded to gigabit fiber for $30/mo
<DocScrutinizer05>
swaggerer
<whitequark>
jealous? :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
not really
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: now that i think of it, germany attacking russia doesn't sound like such a bad idea. you may want their fibers :)
<whitequark>
I don't really know what to do with >50mbit either, to be honest
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hardly +ever* feel need for faster lik speeds
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hardly *ever* feel need for faster link speeds
<wpwrak>
the laxer the copyright law enforcement, the more useful some spare bandwidth :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
16Mb down is mostly perfect. Up is sometimes tedious
<wpwrak>
whitequark: seems that you're safe from DocScrutinizer05 then
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<DocScrutinizer05>
we do 50Mb via copper here, no need for gay glasfibre
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
then otoh we don't route our cables from rooftop to rooftop
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I have 80Mb uplink actually. 50Mb is what remains after I spread it via wifi
<wpwrak>
putin wouldn't want to have any gay fiber anyway. it's probably all manly industrial diamond :)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: despite it being 11n and claiming speed up to 150Mb or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly if this would be just +allowed* here, we already had fibre in every home
<whitequark>
what's the issue with routing cables from rooftop to rooftop?
<wpwrak>
nothing, if you don't mind living like a spider ...
<whitequark>
I hardly can even see those cables
<whitequark>
I mean, it is worth noting that Moscow is on average >10 floor high
<whitequark>
prolly not true for DE
<wpwrak>
a saw it at my old apartment. first it was thin telephone wires. then they added coax for catv. they may have mixed in some power lines, too. finally they brought in fiber trunks for internet. it's kinda weird to have a 5 cm cable dangling in front of your office
<whitequark>
I know a route to a certain useful shop here. on that route, a cable hangs down from a lighting pole, at about eye level
<DocScrutinizer05>
wait til lightning storm ;-P
<whitequark>
for several months
<whitequark>
I am suspicious that it just *might* be live
<wpwrak>
be a good citiz... er, comrade, drink a bottle of vodka, then touch it :)
<whitequark>
I never had the audacity of bringing an indicator screwdriver to test it, because who knows what voltage is it
<whitequark>
probably at most 380V, but... who knows
<wpwrak>
the vodka will make you invulnerable
<wpwrak>
you'll (try to) say so yourself after you've downed the bottle
<whitequark>
I heard that alcohol makes you "invulnerable" to falls for some of the same reasons cats are
<whitequark>
i.e. you relax your skeletal muscles while you fall, and so you basically touch the ground like a ragdoll
<wpwrak>
yeah, so many benefits
<whitequark>
-_-'
<wpwrak>
"SAFETY FIRST: BEFORE OPERATING HEAVY MACHINERY, DRINK BOTTLE OF VODKA !" ;-)
<wpwrak>
"Road safety announcement: no drink, no driving"
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<viric>
whitequark: there is a discussion about crazy russian new laws on internet communication, in #tox
<DocScrutinizer05>
and moderators going nuts about thermonuclear attacks to USA
<DocScrutinizer05>
and Putin riding a horse half-naked
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's aaaaaaal the same masterplan
<whitequark>
ysionneau: ostensibly, that foreign services like gmail and so must store metadata in RU. in practice: "you're our bitch and you can do nothing about it"
<DocScrutinizer05>
(no, I won't fetch my tinfoil hat now)
<whitequark>
since gmail and co will obviously refuse, they'll get blocked
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't you see the masterplan?
<DocScrutinizer05>
really, you do't?
<ysionneau>
17:09 < whitequark> ysionneau: "Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!" < is that a reference to Ylvis video "what does the fox says ?"
<ysionneau>
:p
<whitequark>
ysionneau: yep
<ysionneau>
ahah :)
<ysionneau>
did you see the Add for Firefox OS based phone ?
<ysionneau>
whitequark: (about the law) omg, nice one :)
<ysionneau>
has the law passed already?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I killed it at ~0:17
<whitequark>
ysionneau: that would matter if anyone cared about laws
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet they coordinated it with the turkish bastard
<whitequark>
in practice, they literally block whatever the fuck they want, with or without court decision
<ysionneau>
DocScrutinizer05: you missed the funny part :p
<ysionneau>
but it's even funnier if you know the original video (which was already 'WTF')
<whitequark>
e.g. navalny.ru is blocked despite the responsible official explicitly stating that there is no lawful reason for the block
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<whitequark>
despite that, my ISP entirely ignores the block with apparently no consequences for them
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<whitequark>
as I've said, no one cares about laws, either way.
<DocScrutinizer05>
fucking spammers get really good lately. Absolutely correct German with a plausible storry about me having registered or signed up with sth they claim will cost money. To reject the contract, *please use form in attached .zip* BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAAAA
<whitequark>
ysionneau: does the way Crimea has been annexed make sense for you now? because he could. that's the only reason that is needed here.
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas 50%+ *will* open the .zip, of course using windoze
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I've seen that for ~2 years already, in english. *really* well-copied forms from major banks, etc
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: eventually they will evolve better technical skills, too ...
<whitequark>
absolutely indistinguishable from genuine ones, easily tricking me
<whitequark>
except for the .exe
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, they never use the right email addr to send me that crap. But this time they were scaringly close: my yahoo mail account incl proper display name :-o
<ysionneau>
whitequark: I just know that somehow Crimea was "strategic" for Russia, and since the ukraine was being unstable then they unlawfully (is there any lawful way of doing it?) basically took Crimea with the army and annexed it
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh wait, they sent to yahoo. Meh, need more coffee
<whitequark>
I seen mails with correct To *and* From address, they've even passed DKIM checks (!)
<whitequark>
no clue how they did that
<ysionneau>
with some dummy reasons like "it was naturally our ground"
<whitequark>
ysionneau: it's not like international law exists in general. it's some fiction written by whoever was the strongest
<ysionneau>
I guess the fact that a lot of people speak russian in this area helps to justify the takeover
<whitequark>
well, the population of Crimea is overwhelmingly for the takeover
<DocScrutinizer05>
that, and the propaganda about "fascists everywhere, only Putin can help you!"
<whitequark>
which is understandable, since it mostly comes from or is related to russian military bases there
<ysionneau>
yes
<ysionneau>
but at the origin the port was landed to Russia for their ships, in exchange of a 30% cut in the gaz price, right ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure. I plotted that a week or so ago: send a few thousand "imigrants" or whatever. Make up some threat they face. Send more to help the original ones. Finally take over since you got the majority anyway
<ysionneau>
then Russia took the land and said "ok please pay us back all the history of gaz that you paid for less than the real price"
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically yes, afaik
<ysionneau>
which is ... kind of a weird way to honour the "contract"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
like stealing a shop and then asking for refund for the goods you purchased there from the ex owner
<ysionneau>
ahah sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
since "sucker, it's my shop now, so you pay back the money I gave you!"
<whitequark>
you have this weird assumption that intl politics has some kind of rules
<whitequark>
it's cute
<ysionneau>
well, it's human big social game
<ysionneau>
social interactions have rules
<ysionneau>
for everyone to be happy, everyone else has to be nice to each other
<wpwrak>
oh, they do. me_stronger ? i_make_the_rules : youre_worse_than_hitler;
<ysionneau>
and respect things like treaty, contracts etc
<whitequark>
rules as in physics, sure. rules like "don't break the contract"? lol
<ysionneau>
if you don't respect contracts kind of stuff, how can you build a society/world that works and that does not fall into chaos ?
<ysionneau>
like with rules and laws
<ysionneau>
:(
<whitequark>
if the cost of breaking it is lower than cost of fulfilling, it *will* be broken
<whitequark>
ysionneau: you're assuming that is a goal
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, but I'd at least expect a minimum of common sense
<ysionneau>
yep, I assume that most people want to achieve that
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least try to pretend they had somthing like common sense
<ysionneau>
whitequark: but yes, I have no illusion anymore about Putin having this kind of goal
<ysionneau>
it's clear to me that he only has a big ego issue, and he just tries to make up for it
<ysionneau>
so he needs bigger country, more money
<ysionneau>
a bigger olympics than anybody
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly WHY is this sucker Putin bothering to talk to us to spread his lies, when everybody clearly can see those are lies? Wouldn't it be "smarter" to simply waste his time with better things than talking lies to the international public
<ysionneau>
bigger anything
<whitequark>
ysionneau: he's not that dumb
<whitequark>
bigger country translates to more loyalty, quite directly
<whitequark>
there is a lot of people that are really happy to see RU expanding. patriotism, all that shit
<ysionneau>
oua :(
<ysionneau>
but the end goal, what is it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
toldya
<ysionneau>
he wants people t o like him?
<ysionneau>
he wants to be seen as a hero?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and who's not happy about it will soon regret he isn't
<ysionneau>
he wants money?
<whitequark>
he wants to rule
<DocScrutinizer05>
short dick, you know
<larsc>
And above all he wants to annoy DocScrutinizer05
<whitequark>
everything else is either a precondition or a consequence
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: wow!
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: that's terrible accusation, you say it's all *my* fault
<larsc>
wars have been started over less
<whitequark>
bwahahahahaha
<DocScrutinizer05>
I rather think he wants to imprss you!
* whitequark
fetches a five-liter bucket of popcorn
<DocScrutinizer05>
you shouldn't have worn that shirt, I told ya
<DocScrutinizer05>
we always knew he's gay
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* wpwrak
fills the bathtub with popcorn, pours some oil over it, sets it on fire
<DocScrutinizer05>
(lies) sorry I forgot every communication seemingly directed to international addr is actually just another bit of the .ru-internal brainwash puzzle
<DocScrutinizer05>
"No, we don't have official troops there (<tongue in cheek> <stupid grin>)" APLAUSE, LAUGHTER
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe calling Obama a moron was simpler than those lies. Ow wait, didn't he?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Russia is missing an enemy
<DocScrutinizer05>
an army man (or - in this case - secret service) can't excel without some enemy
<DocScrutinizer05>
what else could he do to impress the russian people? demonstrate that he knows to add 2 + 2
<DocScrutinizer05>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously he can't make "money for nothing, and chicks for free" come true for most of his people
<DocScrutinizer05>
all he got is his military engine
<DocScrutinizer05>
and gas
<DocScrutinizer05>
he failed to excel on relevant reasonable statements and actions in internationalpeaceful politics, so nobody cares about him
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hi DocScrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05>
hi dos1
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-S
<dos1>
hi dos1 :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, I forgot: a seat in UN security council. Which is worth nothing unless you say "Niet!" to everything
<DocScrutinizer05>
pubertary behavior
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<DocScrutinizer05>
err, adolescent
<DocScrutinizer05>
renitent
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's hope eventually he'll grow out of it
<ysionneau>
or die one day and be replaced by someone kinder/nicer
<ysionneau>
the first part is very likely
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, not even google translate knows "renitent"
<DocScrutinizer05>
is Google's "Project ARA" the renamed Bloks-phone?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, it is
<sb0>
will that thing actually work, or is it just publicity?
<dos1>
actually, they claim that Motorola worked on Ara even before that designer drawed his idea, named it Phonebloks and announced to the world that it would be nice if such things that he drawed actually existed :P
<dos1>
they announced it soon after phonebloks became viral, to redirect some of the buzz to them for free I guess
<dos1>
tbh it's a very nice r&d project to conduct which may spawn some nice solutions
<dos1>
but I just can't see anything more to it when I look at it :P
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sb0: flypaper idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
a hoax
<DocScrutinizer05>
one of those ideas that never die but never have a real life either
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm quite sure we had that discussion about modularity in embedded already back when I worked for Openmoko
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's really not a new idea, it's just hyped recently
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks to the shiny new world of social media
<DocScrutinizer05>
Ron Hubbard's paradise
<DocScrutinizer05>
https://phonebloks.com/en/goals " 979,260 supporters 381,772,413 social reach 518,385 social followers 21,313,422 youtube views "
Jay7x is now known as Jay7
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm honestly tempted by the tentacled one to create a similar hoax
<DocScrutinizer05>
just have to find a way to overcome my moral and shame
<dos1>
why? just make something up, do a animated presentation about your idea and tell something like "wouldn't it be great to have something like that? support it now!"
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, and then I don't dare to leave my apartment anymore
<dos1>
that's nothing about "moral and shame", at least at this point
<DocScrutinizer05>
after all I could run into somebody who challenges me on the idea face to face
<dos1>
then just watch the clueless mob and media treating this idea as a real project that needs some "kickstarting" to be realized
<dos1>
at *this* point it might be morally ambiguous ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
while I'm constantly practicing, I haven't reached mastership yet regarding BOFH
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but let's finish the Neo900 prototype first, then rethink this idea
<dos1>
good point :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
creating the video becomes mich easier
<sb0>
"We will spend every penny in expanding the online Phonebloks platform"
<dos1>
wpwrak: haha! when I last checked they (he?) were all "it's about the idea, we take no donations, just spread the world so companies will know that we want it!"
<sb0>
i.e. on hot air
<wpwrak>
"it's not about money. we're not that greedy. just spread the good word."
<wpwrak>
"hmm, this server is quite expensive to run ..."
<sb0>
meanwhile, if you want to build actual OSHW, what do you get? the publicity and cash starvation we are familiar with...
<wpwrak>
"hey, you know what ? since so many you have been asking how to send us money, we thought we owe you setting up a way to do it."
<wpwrak>
q: do they publish anywhere how much they collected so far ?
<wpwrak>
sb0: yeah. exactly. we're doing it wrong. the more you promise, the less you get.
<wpwrak>
or, rather, the more tangible your promises, the less you get
<sb0>
maybe I should start asking those "technology singularity" people for money, instead of only mocking them
<dos1>
1) promise a pie in the sky in a way that most of people will say "hmm, seems legit"
<dos1>
2) ...
<dos1>
3) profit :P
<wpwrak>
i mean, there's a success story out there: the church. they've been in the businness for well over a thousand years, and do they have even one satisfied customer who can report "yes, it works. i really did get to heaven !"
<wpwrak>
dos1: neo900 almost got it right - i found the idea of the "donations" brilliant. alas, you turned into boring old preorders in the terms and conditions
<dos1>
wpwrak: about donations - how do you think it should look like then?
<dos1>
pure donations for development, and then regular preorders at lower price, not connected to donations at all?
<wpwrak>
that's one idea, yes. perhaps you could also make a "club" where people pay "membership fees" and discounts on what the club produces are based on their contributions.
<wpwrak>
it's tricky because there is a gray area somewhere between "no promises" and "business as usual"
<wpwrak>
you basically want to find a way to accept "gifts" and to be thankful for them later, with a thankfulness expressed in better prices
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<wpwrak>
that alone shouldn't be a problem. i mean, any trader can make individualized prices and has very few restrictions on that.
<wpwrak>
the difficulty seems to lie in how to express the gratitude you're promising
<sb0>
not by selling yourself to facebook, I guess
<wpwrak>
or maybe it could be a cooperative. that seems to be an extremely flexible form of running a business.
<wpwrak>
sb0: well, that wouldn't be such a bad approach
<wpwrak>
sb0: depends on what conditions you can negotiate. but they would, for example, be very little risk of conflict of interest on technical terms
<wpwrak>
sb0: and since "everyone" is on FB anyway, they may not really care to force your customers to be there, too, if they don't want - since they have most of them already, so why expend effort on the few haters
<wpwrak>
and people weren't pissed at them finding money, but on them being late and communicating poorly. and then of course also the money became suspect.
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: ^^^ how about a tiny news?
<sb0>
"hurts the KS platform"
<sb0>
hahaha
<sb0>
ah, they're in ME hell too
<whitequark>
ME?
<sb0>
mechanical engineering
<wpwrak>
dos1: e.g., a cooperative can issue shares. the value of shares depends on the value of the cooperative. so you're not promising a fixed amount but that people will get their "fair share" in the end
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<DocScrutinizer05>
you can't hand out shares for free, and when you hand them out for money then err, what's the "fair share"? you can't do that when you also wnat to do true orders later
<whitequark>
can't you?
<DocScrutinizer05>
if we were interested in that, we already had taken the VC road to slavery
<DocScrutinizer05>
a completely undefined and cloudy/fuzzy concept. shares offering "fair share"
<DocScrutinizer05>
fair share of WHAT?
<wpwrak>
the shares would be in return for something you do for the cooperative. not sure what the limitations are. for sure monetary contributions could be turned into shares, just like you can buy shares of, say, apple. (they're of course publicly traded, which is probably not where you'd want to go)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I DO NOT WANT to share my already small marging with everybody
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the end the whole profit of the enterprise goes to those who have shares. *I* have none
<wpwrak>
in one way or another, you do :) besides, the cooperative can also pay you for things you do directly
<wpwrak>
no, you'd have shares, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
aha!
<DocScrutinizer05>
please stop that!
<wpwrak>
plus the cooperative would probably want to reinvest in R&D, which is right where you'd sit :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it took us some 4 weeks or more to come up with sth we *thought* might work
<DocScrutinizer05>
your idea is... sinply not applicable
<wpwrak>
i think the big problem in what you did is that you started to operate long before you actually got organized. and by operating alone you created facts that are were incompatible with lots of the things you realized you wanted to do later.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you obviously have no clue about share regulations and the obligations this creates for the ones doing that
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're free to think that
<wpwrak>
so the lessons i draw from your experience are: 1) properly organize the biz first, only then start operation. 2) don't do it in .de
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever
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<wpwrak>
(shares) as far as i know, privately traded shares are pretty flexible. they can have votes or no, you can even control them changing hands. they're a world apart from publicly traded shares, the sort you find on stock exchanges.
<wpwrak>
the publicly traded ones are nasty. the privately traded ones still mean that you have some accountability, but i guess you can't dodge that no matter what you do.
<wpwrak>
and regarding letting the early adopters benefit a little from the success of the operation, don't you think that would be fair ? after all, they also share the risk that it fails. they're the ones who believe in you and who support you. it seems only correct to remember them also when some day the cash trucks start rolling in. you can still set things such that you get your mansion by the beach, the yacht, and a few ponies. maybe no
<wpwrak>
private jet, though. but its noise would scare the ponies anyway :)
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