<viric>
from the video I don't see it very succesful though :)
<wpwrak>
hmm. they're targting this at kids. so ... add a little "payload" (explosive), and you have both a schoolboy's wettest dream ever and a schoolgirl's worst nightmare at the same time.
<lekernel>
"Following a brief surgery you perform on the cockroach to attach the silver electrodes..."
<viric>
It reminds me of the Starship Troopers classroom lesson
<wpwrak>
hmm. so that's what started the war ...
<viric>
According to the canadian ex-minister of defense, aliens are among us, at least four races. And two races help the White House.
<larsc>
or maybe snowdens greatest leak is still to come
<viric>
ha, everyone trusts snowden, and noone trusts the canadian minister of defence?
<viric>
Anonymous or Snowden will not say about ETs, because they ride on "what the people want to hear".
<larsc>
'snowden was an inside job!' ;)
<viric>
exactly :)
<viric>
but anonymous or snowden would have the reputation very affected, if they talk about ETs.
<viric>
so they can only explain what the people want to hear.
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<whitequark>
wpwrak: re roboroach: no this is not fake, the experiment is incredibly well known
<DocScrutinizer05>
seen it in TV
<whitequark>
surprisingly kickstarter didn't kill the project so I guess they will even deliver
<DocScrutinizer05>
on the bright side: no cockroaches here
<whitequark>
cockroaches sort of disappeared from moscow several years ago (~a decade), no one knows precisely why
<whitequark>
I haven't seen one in a veeeeery long time
<whitequark>
guess the conditions here are worse than after a nuclear war?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hah
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly
<larsc>
or they have all been turned into roboroaches fighting for the kgb
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pretty sure WLAN or car catalyzers or PTFE bottles or tequila killed them
<DocScrutinizer05>
or what larsc says
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: (wlan) lol, the top "popular" hypothesis is "GSM killed roaches"
<whitequark>
second one is "GMO"
<whitequark>
official one is that moscow govt demolished a lot of old shitty buildings with wooden parts and simultaneously cracked down on sanitary norms for businesses
<DocScrutinizer05>
see, I'm good at "knowledge of the masses"
<whitequark>
YOUR WORKING ON GSM YOUR A ROACH KILLER!!1one
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd pick this when I had to choose
<DocScrutinizer05>
cheers Monsanto
<whitequark>
modified, yes
<whitequark>
not sure if sarcasm or wears a tinfoil hat :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
hey, BT-corn is the hugest experiment with humans ever made
<DocScrutinizer05>
cockroaches are only a colateral damage
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know that BT-corn produces its own insecticide
<whitequark>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
and while it allegedly is used only to feed cattle, it *of course* is *everywhere*, even on your pizza
<DocScrutinizer05>
so no tinfoil hat
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: quick reply: if it doesn't kill cattle (or bioaccumulate in it), it's not going to kill me
<whitequark>
slow reply: let me look through pubmed for studies of Bt endotoxin effect on humans. pretty sure the result is a definite "nothing ever happens unless you eat a bucket of it".
<larsc>
and even if it kills you somebody else will survive, that's natural selection ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but all those hormone-homologues in plastics are also quite syspicious and ubiquitous, but I somehow doubt they can kill cockroaches
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: what makes you think it doesn't kill cattle? cattle average live span: 4 years (guess)
<whitequark>
"No toxic effect was observed for the trypsin-activated Cry toxins in mammalian cells"
<DocScrutinizer05>
blablabla
* whitequark
shrugs
<whitequark>
you want to believe, it's your right to disregard everything that doesn't fit into your preexisting opinion
<whitequark>
can't do anything with it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know that iriginally nutrasweet was not approved and considered harmful, until Nestle´ paid several mio to the right guys
<DocScrutinizer05>
originally* / initially
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<DocScrutinizer05>
you also probably know that in the late 40s or the 50s they sold cigarettes with asbestos filter
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: ok. so what's your resolution? abandon using a likely safe, low-dosage insecticide treatment and instead wash the plants from planes with gigantic amounts of known much more toxic insecticides?
<whitequark>
(cigarettes) the asbestos part is funny, but let's look at the fact they still sell cigarettes first...
<DocScrutinizer05>
I sugest to do what all farmers do in Europe
<DocScrutinizer05>
NOT use GMO, and give monsanto the finger
<DocScrutinizer05>
monsanto should get killed with fire
<whitequark>
btw, you do understand gmo is not limited to naturally producing insecticides?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
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<whitequark>
hm, funny. Bt toxin (or rather, the Bt microorganism itself) is used as an externally applied insecticide either, in spray-on form
<whitequark>
is this what european farmers prefer to use?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also understand that immunity of bacteria against anitbiotica is not only induced by exposing the particular bacterium to the antibioticum, these critters share knowhow by transfer of DNA segments from one to the other, even across kinds and families
<whitequark>
(not that I would object, turns out you can eat live cultures with no apparant effects)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what I want to say is: man has nfc what he's gambling with
<DocScrutinizer05>
and my approach is to steer clear of anything you can't revert
<whitequark>
so you disapprove of artifical selection too?
<DocScrutinizer05>
BT-corn spreads and nobody can control where it shows up
<whitequark>
since the result of that spreads as well and you can hardly control it
<whitequark>
in fact (I don't know whether this is done or not) it's quite easy to control the spread of GMO if you want.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and yes, I think keeping certain species out of certain biotopes is mandatory
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<DocScrutinizer05>
see rabbits in Australia, or (better example) the asian wood tick bug in Europe
<whitequark>
sure, I agree with that
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<DocScrutinizer05>
noo dos1
<DocScrutinizer05>
moo even :-)
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<larsc>
DocScrutinizer05: and most importantly keep the human out of most biotopes ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: that too :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: however, regarding cockroach i'd not surprised to learn they can survive a nuvlear war but don't like Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate (DEHP)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(which probably is an even huger mass experiment on humans than the BT-corn)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I simply don't like the approach of "we fed it to 500 mice and they all were still alive 1 day later, so let's add it to food for humans now since it helps optimize one aspect of industrial production"
<larsc>
you can always move to a cabin in the woods ;)
<whitequark>
how do you suggest transitioning to humans instead?
<DocScrutinizer05>
eah, sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly the USA have a long record of allowing everybody to sell everything claiming whatever they like - like e.g. table water "activated" with radon that allegedly helps against aging and whatnot. Must be a direct result of their snake-oil salesmen in the early centuries of this country
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course unless it's somehow of interest for the FDA and might be considered a drug
<DocScrutinizer05>
then they as well may forbid whatever they like, and imprison you for some 10 or 20 years for even owning it
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<DocScrutinizer05>
s/FDA/DEA/
<DocScrutinizer05>
the FDA is blind and ignorant and has the brain of a germ
<DocScrutinizer05>
to me it feels like worldwide fight is banning one hazardous issue per year but same time we seen like 20 or 100 new ones each year
<DocScrutinizer05>
due to general mindset of "as long as it's not proven to be dangerous we will use it"
<DocScrutinizer05>
and "we are interested in any negative effects _only_ if they cost us money"
<dos1>
moo
<whitequark>
hm
<wpwrak>
(where have the cockroaches gone ?) i think you're missing the obvious. after the fall of the iron curtain, the CIA simply recalled most of its agents.
<whitequark>
hahaha
<wpwrak>
(safety of GMO) i'd be surprised if these things caused acute intoxication. but we have enough more subtle things that are clearly on an increase, such as (dangerous) allergies, that fit the profile of something that would slip through those studies rather well.
<wpwrak>
(artificial selection) i think the problem there isn't that it's artificial but that its pace can easily exceed the change rate of natural selection. this in turn means that the (naturally evolved) mechanisms to adapt to such changes fall behind.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: true, but that's not specific to GMO. we're eating much more stuff we didn't eat for long, most of it is not related to GMO or is plain out natural.
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<whitequark>
(selection) any changes humanity can perform, either by selection or modification, are incredibly tiny compared to what happens naturally
<whitequark>
by the way, the mechanisms ("you die if you're not good enough" ?) work quite well against changes people do. antibiotic-resistant bacteria, pesticide-resistant insects, etc, etc... happens quite fast.
<wpwrak>
yes, short-lived organisms definitely have an advantage there
<wpwrak>
(selection) i mean the rate at which humans can adapt to outside changes. not all of them require humans to keep up 1:1. we also have mechanisms that "learn" without resorting to evolution, which simpler organisms working against these mechanisms may lack. so the change is more complex for the simpler organism.
<whitequark>
(humans) yes, I'd be more worried about the damage we do to ourselves. nature as a whole definitely outlives us :)
<wpwrak>
well yes, being your own kind's worst enemy comes with being the universal apex predator :)
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: re FDA: sure, that's a problem, but it has nothing to do with technology itself (GMO, etc)
<whitequark>
I'm not sure what are you going to achieve by banning one tech (GMO) when ten new (with zero oversight) will pop in its place.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just don't want to get exposed to it
<whitequark>
then mandatory labelling will be enough. isn't it mandatory already?
<whitequark>
here in Russia, "no gmo" is something you see on a lot of products
<whitequark>
(... sort of like there used to be "no cholestrol" marking on vegetable oils :D)
<DocScrutinizer05>
virtually *every* US product contains GMO soy
<whitequark>
(tangentially: aren't you from/in Germany?)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's like stating "free of radioactive additives" in Japan
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I'm from Germany and here we try hard to kick ass of monsanto, but they can't kept out of Europe leaglly
<DocScrutinizer05>
legally even
<DocScrutinizer05>
GMO soy shipping from US in volumes of megatons
<wpwrak>
i suppose you get some from us down here as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
monsanto agressively marketing they crappy BT-corn and fighting for allowance to grow it in the wild
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/they/their/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "monsanto agressively marketing their crappy BT-corn and fighting for allowance to grow it in the wild"
<whitequark>
(japan) that is a bad comparison, since from what I gather, anything out of fukushima is diluted to lower than background levels far before it can reach you
<whitequark>
or maybe good :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
few farmers interested, but those few are enough already
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha @ background levels
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe that's what they tell you in Russia
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc they found real hotspots even in Tokyo
<viric>
I like when they say "the impossible happened, noone could forecast this", about fukushima
<viric>
which is something like "we got all wrong, when we built this, and we don't have any idea why yet"
<whitequark>
that being said the japanese govt seems to handle the whole situation awfully, regardless of its actual damage
<whitequark>
lying and hiding stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly like GMO handling in Europe
<DocScrutinizer05>
90% of residents don't want to see that crap here, yet they find new loopholes for monsanto to "enter the market" every other week
<DocScrutinizer05>
90% don't even want to drink milk that's from cattle feeded with BT-corn
<DocScrutinizer05>
but governments don't even demand to mark milk from such cattle so consumer had any choice
<whitequark>
you should've started with that :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they simply forcefeed that shit to us since monsanto wants to make big business
<DocScrutinizer05>
"oh your bees in the hyve 5 miles away from that monsanto test area provide honey with GMO genes in it? Too bad but nothing we can do about it"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"or your field with corn has 10% of GMO in it? SUCKER! You didn't pay monsanto for using their seeds!"
<whitequark>
side note: it's not easy to make a cell accept foreign dna even if you really want to, and know exactly what you put there
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter *how* those 10% GMO got on the field of that bio-farmer
<whitequark>
gmo genes in honey would be a truly tinfoil concern
<whitequark>
(pay monsanto) last time I checked that wasn't true
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't give a shit about anybody's notion how much "tinfoil hat concern2 it is, I don't want to get forcefed with such shit
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's like you building a fab next to my door that exhausts lots of toxic stuff and you're arguing that my concerns are moot since I can't prove there is any damage done
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think when somebody blows up such fab then it's also up to the fab owner to prove that explosion been caused by some enemy and not by their own evil mindset exceeding critical mass and causing a chain reaction
<whitequark>
when it's known it's toxic, you have just proven the damage. when it's not, yes, it's your responsibility
<whitequark>
and I think that's exactly what will happen if the fab blows up
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm NOT responsible to do scientific test on my neighbours toxic waste
<whitequark>
so you're asking him to stop doing X simply because you don't like X
<whitequark>
demanding him
<whitequark>
totally makes sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I don't think monsanto has a god-given entitlement to sell and grow GMO here in Germany, when 90% of residents simply say "no way"
<DocScrutinizer05>
however check the nutrasweet story how such things work in real life, with the corrupt governments we have
<DocScrutinizer05>
claiming "bad vibes" or whatever casued by BT-corn grown in my country would clearly specify as "tin foil hat" concerns. Analytic proof of BT-genes in honey is something that obviously should allow me to send a C&D to monsanto
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<DocScrutinizer05>
but they baltantly lie denying any such things possible to ever happen when they apply for approval to grow their shit in the wild, and after they been proven wrong and BT-genes found everywhere, they say "oh well, but now it's too late to roll back any of that anyway, so we as well can continue on what we're doing"
<DocScrutinizer05>
same for the BT insecticide itself. They deny any negative effects until proven wrong
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's always the same
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2013-11-11 14:52:42] <DocScrutinizer05> due to general mindset of "as long as it's not proven to be dangerous we will use it"
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2013-11-11 14:54:14] <DocScrutinizer05> and "we are interested in any negative effects _only_ if they cost us money"
<DocScrutinizer05>
to be found everywhere, all the time
<DocScrutinizer05>
not only for GMO or food at large, but actually for every aspect of our life and planet
<whitequark>
so in essence you're mad at capitalism?
<larsc>
well essential all domestic crops are gene manipulated, it was just a lot harder to make modifications back in the days where people relied on random mutations for this
<DocScrutinizer05>
more at egosim and materialism, and particularly at ignorance and idiocy and liars
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: about 2/3 of the residents seem to be fine with the way things are. or didn't merkel land a great victory recently ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(capitalism) I don't see any link and corellation. I think comunism as well has a record to abuse technology and not asking if it sipleases *anybody* anywhere. See e.g. Chernobyl
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you missed how democracy works
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: democracy is what you call a system where the people have no power whatsoever and the government can therefore let them do whatever they please
<whitequark>
(communism) iirc ussr lost about 2k radioisotopic thermoelectric generators in lighthouses along the shore
<whitequark>
that is two thousand. lost as in there is no written record of their location
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can choose if your drinking water from the tap shall have a) nitrides or rather b) dioxine or maybe c) gasoline
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what we call "democratic elections"
<whitequark>
(rtgs) 1 thousand it turns out. still a lot
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not correct to comclude to any general notion in population from any such election result
<wpwrak>
whitequark: keeps you warm in the dark winter nights when the vodka has run out :)
<wpwrak>
larsc: harder = longer testing period, especially if you do things like crossing species boundaries
<larsc>
if it compiles, ship it!
<larsc>
;)
<wpwrak>
larsc: and let's not pretend al this is an exact science. e.g., they happily deployed GMOs long before discovering that "junk DNA" wasn't just junk, or before noticing the effect of DNA methylation.
<wpwrak>
yeah, pretty much :)
<whitequark>
not sure how you can deploy GMO without understanding of noncoding DNA, it's critical for the whole contraption to work
<whitequark>
since e.g. promotor is a noncoding fragment, or what you'd call 'junk'
<wpwrak>
whitequark: hmm, do you know how they started making GMOs ? the earliest approaches consisted of setting up a field with the crop they wanted to modify, then placing a radiation source in the middle. leave it there for a while. then see what happens. if any of the plants looked better than before, that was the new product.
<wpwrak>
you see, surgical precision all the way
<whitequark>
wpwrak: oh.
<larsc>
but that's just the old method on fast forward
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<whitequark>
I wonder how much more than just polysomia (= bigger plants) you could get that way
<wpwrak>
in a way, yes. the question is whether you still get only one or at least a small number of mutations or whether you get a total mess what works more or less by accident and may do all sorts of weird things.
<wpwrak>
which brings me back to the point of no exceeding the speed at which higher organisms can adapt to evolution of their environment
<wpwrak>
whitequark: well, if you can afford to lose 1000 reactors, just imagine how many fields you can irradiate. hey, do it in siberia, so the nasty byproducts will die next winter.
<larsc>
or fukushima
<whitequark>
wpwrak: it was lost during the fall of ussr, I think