Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
<wolfspraul>
glad to see the story ended happily :-)
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<whitequark>
huh
<whitequark>
where's dvdk? haven't seen him lately
<whitequark>
I owe him twenty euros. or maybe fifteen...
<wolfspraul>
whitequark: did you get some UBB?
<wolfspraul>
whitequark: are you a Twitter user? Can you make a tweet mentioning qi-hardware to see whether it shows up here? :-)
<whitequark>
wolfspraul: yeah, they've arrived
<whitequark>
erm...
<whitequark>
half a year ago, approximately.
<whitequark>
but the whole bitcoin thing isn't quite easy, and I'm a lazu fucko.
<whitequark>
*lazy.
<whitequark>
hm, tweet
<whitequark>
I could try
<whitequark>
posted.
<qi-bot>
Peter Zotov: @qihardware nice job, folks! ( 138080295990726656@whitequark - 20s ago via Tweetings for Chrome )
<whitequark>
wolfspraul: ahem. you're the one I have been giving twitter advices all the day of 18th :D
<whitequark>
or was that night?..
<wolfspraul>
yes, and I'm learning...
<wolfspraul>
whitequark: cool, it worked!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I think we don't need the stuff in parentheses ( 13808 ... for Chrome )
<qi-bot>
Qi Hardware: RT @whitequark: @qihardware nice job, folks! ( 138100457611599872@qihardware - 12s ago via HootSuite )
<wolfspraul>
why is that pinging back to whitequark now? :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, how do yuo like jamendo as a source for free (i.e., reusable) music ? seems to have a much larger choice than ccmixter
<wolfspraul>
yes good
<wolfspraul>
I wish we have better browsing and download clients on the Ben, that'd be cool
<wpwrak>
hah, i'm happy enough if it can manage it with the pc :)
<wpwrak>
s/it/i/
<wolfspraul>
the browsing/discovery/listening interface on all those sites is bad, imho
<wolfspraul>
then it says "License this music" (PRO)
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to license it, I want to listen to it, and share with whoever in any way I like :-)
<wolfspraul>
now I click on 'buy' and I have to answer what it's for: internet, corporate use, ads, short film, documentary, movie, tv program, ...
<wolfspraul>
argh :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, they suggest you need their pro service. but you can just search for music and filter out the NC/ND/etc. stuff anyway :)
<wpwrak>
"advanced search"
<wolfspraul>
bah, enough
<wolfspraul>
closed the site :-)
<wolfspraul>
one day someone needs to scrape all truly free content from them and others, and bring to one really great free tunes site
<wolfspraul>
the key is to make that place a great place for musicians to upload, experiment, share
<wolfspraul>
let's make a site that allows the creation of electronic music online
<wolfspraul>
the whole music creation interface should be in the browser, and the music is naturally stored 'in the cloud' (=on the server), and freely available to anyone
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<wpwrak>
you could perhaps start a meta-index. collect all the keywords, tags, bpm, licensing terms, instruments, whatever, and link in more or less direct ways to the place with the music
<wpwrak>
and i somehow don't see that much potential for an "always-on" browser-based studio :)
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<rjeffries>
On Twitter I posted a tweet to @qi-hardware wonder when or if it will show up here?
<rjeffries>
guess I'll check baclog tomorrow
<rjeffries>
s/bac/back
<DocScrutinizer>
err what? twitter "posts" showing up on IRC? :-o
<DocScrutinizer>
God beware
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<vladislavkorotne>
hi guys :) is there any way to change the usb device mode to mass storage etc. without having to rebuild the kernel? is there a way for it at all?
<wolfspra1l>
he
<wolfspra1l>
it's one of the big wish-list items
<wolfspra1l>
make usb client easily switchable between networking, storage, usb-midi, soundcard, keyboard, mouse :-)
<wolfspra1l>
maybe just a whole virtual usb hub with all this behind?
<kyak>
wolfspra1l: no more stuff in parentheses
<wolfspra1l>
but I don't think as of right now much of this works
<wolfspra1l>
kyak: great!
<wolfspra1l>
do you know why Ron Jeffries tweet did not show up? I think it's because he said he posted to #qi-hardware (with dash)
<wolfspra1l>
but I think our account is just #qihardware (without dash)?
<kyak>
i dunno where he posted, but i don't see his post in web interface :)
<C-Keen>
wolfspra1l: to enable mass_storage (or file_storage) one needs to build and load the respective gadget module
<vladislavkorotne>
btw i heard there is a web-interface for file upload in the latest image, however it seems i am either connecting to a wrong port/url or httpd/whatever isnt running :/
<wolfspra1l>
web interface for file upload? what do you mean?
<wolfspra1l>
C-Keen: yes, but as I said I want a super easy way to just switch between devices
<wolfspra1l>
of course the devil is in the details, as always
<wolfspra1l>
for example waht should usb-storage mount? maybe a loop device pointing back to a file?
<C-Keen>
wolfspra1l: as in a UI wrapper around modprobe and rmmod?
<vladislavkorotne>
upload files via web-browser instead of sftp (at least I remember kristianpaul said something like this)
<wolfspra1l>
C-Keen: as in something that actually makes sense for a regular user :-)
<wolfspra1l>
upload to where?
<vladislavkorotne>
to NanoNote
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<vladislavkorotne>
do i need to change anything except this http://d.pr/SiXm to build the NanoNote toolchain?
<C-Keen>
wolfspra1l: well IIRC mass_storage can also work on a whole partition so you could just reexport the root partition or the home partition or a special storage partition
<C-Keen>
wolfspra1l: but I agree there needs to be some kind of concept
<wolfspra1l>
reexport root partition?
<wolfspra1l>
what if both sides want to read or write at the same time?
<wolfspra1l>
maybe you would need some kind of mode to switch, but that's ugly
<wolfspra1l>
needs more thought, yes
<wolfspra1l>
but in theory we are getting closer :-)
<wolfspra1l>
also usb-midi would be another nice client/gadget type, now that we deal with Milkymist One so much
<vladislavkorotne>
yep :)
<vladislavkorotne>
btw do the said gadget modules build in default configuration?
<vladislavkorotne>
│ │ [*] Build the OpenWrt based Toolchain
<vladislavkorotne>
are these the only ones i need?
<wolfspra1l>
I don't know, haven't built anything in a while
<vladislavkorotne>
noo, virtualbox is not what i would want to run constantly
<vladislavkorotne>
i have a separate Powermac that can run debian, but still i'll need to build it for powerpc and also it's slower than my core2duo macbook :P
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<vladislavkorotne>
hope i have configured it right, have no spare 12 hours for a complete build lol
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<vladislavkorotne>
hello everyone once again, I got an idea of an iTunes-like Sync Center for the NanoNote, but I don't know how to make GUI Linux apps, so is it ok if I write it in RealBasic? P
<vladislavkorotne>
:P*
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<kristianpaul>
as soon as can run in linux based systems..
<vladislavkorotne>
but the RealStudio is not open D
<vladislavkorotne>
D:*
<vladislavkorotne>
something stuck in the keyboard's ; key :/
<C-Keen>
the nanonote is open hardware and will distribute only free software with it
<vladislavkorotne>
i mean, i will make the REALBasic source open, but the app to compile it isnt open
<kristianpaul>
so is a trap !! :-)
<wpwrak>
vladislavkorotne: what other programming languages do you know ? Python ? C ? adding GUIs is often easier than you may expect. but BASIC is basically non-existent in the unix world
<vladislavkorotne>
Objective-C
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<kristianpaul>
any one had experience good coroutines library?
<kristianpaul>
oops, forgot library part
<qwebirc61613>
in C?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<whitequark>
and I guess for MIPS
<whitequark>
do you know if makecontext/setcontext work?
<kristianpaul>
no
<whitequark>
checking that shouldn't be so hard
<whitequark>
hm
<vladislavkorotne>
well, i'll start to make it for Mac and then porting it over will be just a matter of GUI :P
<whitequark>
either of these should be fine as a test
<wpwrak>
vladkorotnev_awa: C is a good start. there are several choices there. the ones i know are Gtk (powerful but not so easy to get started with) and SDL (simple and friendly)
<wpwrak>
vladkorotnev_awa: there's also GeodeFX (reborn as MTK), which may be the easiest of all of them, but it's a rare bird
<vladkorotnev_awa>
@wpwrak GTK doesn't work on Mac/Windows. Probably a Windows/Linux alternative would be Qt. But Nothing's better for Mac than a native ui :)
<whitequark>
vladkorotnev_awa: gtk does work on Windows
<whitequark>
ie pidgin
<whitequark>
not sure about Mac, but it works with X server. Not good, through
<vladkorotnev_awa>
Mac has X
<vladkorotnev_awa>
but it's sorta weird
<whitequark>
X is never good.
<whitequark>
it's freaking weird by design.
<wpwrak>
vladkorotnev_awa: Qt is C++. if C++ is an option, you also have wxWidgets, which is a popular choice for cross-platform development
<vladkorotnev_awa>
probably
<whitequark>
wpwrak: last time I've seen them, wxwidgets looked like tk
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<whitequark>
ah, that's for ben
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i try to avert my eyes quickly when i see C++ ;-)
<vladkorotnev_awa>
Could anyone please send the Ben symbol here? :P
<whitequark>
kuribas: X is a collection of badly made modules which are barely glued together with a duct tape and weren't updated from 1986 or so
<whitequark>
it may have some good but entirely theoretical concepts, which are completely unapplicable in the world as it is, with 3D graphics, compositing, and stuff
<whitequark>
and it _does_ work bad in practice
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<kyak>
whitequark: do you use it right now? :)
<whitequark>
kyak: X? yes. and I hate it. Every time I switch to my WinXP in a VM it feels like it's three times faster to respond to mouse movement
<whitequark>
can't wait for working Wayland in Debian
<vladkorotnev_awa>
is there mDNSResponder for NanoNote?
<kyak>
whitequark: my point is, that X has no alternative at the moment. And blaming X won't help.
<kyak>
and it wil be really funny when people won't get what they expect from Wayland
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<Ayla>
what do you mean?
<kristianpaul>
*g*
<kyak>
i mean, what will be the next subject for blaming?
<Ayla>
it's not a problem of blaming
<kyak>
yeah, it's a problem of "colored carpet" which is Linux
<Ayla>
X is too old in its design
<kyak>
not this talk again...
<Ayla>
you don't think it's true?
<Ayla>
the same goes to ALSA for instance
<lars_>
and posix! ;)
<kuribas>
It's funny, the book I am reading states: "_Xlib_ has, as of this writing, been stable for several months, and is expected to have a useful lifetime of three to five years."
<kuribas>
It's from 1988
<lars_>
and people have only stoped using xlib in the last 2-3 years
<kuribas>
But reading about it, it doesn't seem so badly designed, and you don't need twenty extention modules on an embedded device.
<kuribas>
It's mostly gnome/gtk which is bloated.
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<wpwrak>
kuribas: yeah. for most things, you don;t even know X is there. most of the complains are about some ancient things that are indeed hardly used anymore. but then, they don't get in the way either. it's kinda like digging up some corpses and then complaining that some people in this city have a really foul smell, and thus concluding they all stink.
<wpwrak>
i don't know all that much about X internals, but i've seen this for years in TCP. every few months, some brilliant chap dreams up some "vastly improved" replacement (sic !) for TCP. and they almost get rid of some "unnecessary complexity".
<kristianpaul>
suck less fever? :-)
<lars_>
the problem with X is it still works good _enough_
<kristianpaul>
like my procmail :)
<wpwrak>
with most of these proposals, you already know why they can't work when you finish reading the paper. quite often, they make assumptions about the surrounding world that aren't true. particularly in the ATM area, a lot of interesting megalomaniac ideas (along with TCP replacements) have been hatched.
<viric>
I agree with lars_
<viric>
lars_: but avoiding xlib, you mean, using libxcb?
<lars_>
yes
<lars_>
a lot of projects are using libxcb these days
<viric>
let me see how much of them I have
<lars_>
also toolkits have stopped using XWindows for everything except the main window
<wpwrak>
lars_: it seems that things have pretty much quieted down. there was a new feature frenzy some time ago, with 3D and multimedia, but you don't hear much excitement about that now. seems that they found designs and protocols that work, and have placed suitable rugs to hide any ugliness under.
<viric>
i only have toolkits using libxcb
<viric>
but my libX11 depends on libxcb :)
<whitequark>
X is now definitely obsolete
<whitequark>
it does not serve its original purpose
<whitequark>
at all
<whitequark>
it's just a thin layer that gets a pixmap on one side of pipe, puts it at the other
<whitequark>
and we don't actually need all that arcane madness to handle the simple task
<lars_>
wpwrak: and as a protocol for window managers
<wpwrak>
lars_: yup. big feature.
<whitequark>
lars_: well, yes, I will miss my awesome WM a bit
<whitequark>
it has been a real pain to make a sane interface on top of X protocol, through
<whitequark>
for the awesome devs I mean
<lars_>
whitequark: but you can't simply replace X with something else, because you won't have any working apps
<lars_>
except you provide a compatibility layer
<whitequark>
lars_: you have Qt and GTK
<whitequark>
and writing a backend for both of them is a doable task
<lars_>
yes
<whitequark>
later you can get something like Xnest (or Xvfb, or whatever) to render to your replacement, but it's second priority
<lars_>
you are quite lucky in the case of X, because not many apps are using it directly
<kuribas>
X windows was meant to be low level, even fom the start.
<whitequark>
and that's a reason for them not using it directly, indeed
<whitequark>
*there is
<lars_>
replacing libc for example would be a bit harder
<whitequark>
it was done, several times
<whitequark>
you have uclibc which works for most apps, at least
<whitequark>
maybe something else
<lars_>
uclibc has the same api as libc
<whitequark>
ah, in this sense
<lars_>
well uclibc is a libc
<whitequark>
you may as well replace posix with winapi
<whitequark>
heh, at least you'll get real async io.
<wpwrak>
lars_: (not many using it directly) which of course also means that they don't care whether they run on X or anything else. nice logic. it's the one politicians use :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: in this case it isn't anything bad
<wpwrak>
"we will introduce full-body x-ray scanners at airports. nobody, except for those few who use them, will be affected by them."
<whitequark>
they're not x-ray afaik (or else everyone will be affected, won't them?) that's some kind of far IR, at least that's what a reference says about terahertz range
<whitequark>
does not change the meaning, through.
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<wpwrak>
oh, i just picked x-ray as a technology you wouldn't want to have there for obvious reasons. the others have other issues, and are harder to explain :)
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: rtems patches: added new UART and IRQ rearrangement, plus include fix (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/58da15e
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/tools/m1nor: flash a file to M1 NOR partition selected by the file name (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6dc6174
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: m1nor: "pld reconfigure" at then end, to properly exit fjmem (suggested by Michael Walle) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bf6c207