<wpwrak>
so ... today's topic is: is the ben a dying platform ... or not ? :)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
is Ron here?
<wpwrak>
i'll play advocatus diabolis :)
<wolfspraul>
last I saw him he just dumped a few more off-topic links and left right away :-)
<roh>
wolfspraul: i think ingenic is the wrong tree to bark on. soc vendors basically never are good at doing sw
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
that may be, I don't know, but I can very much understand your point
<wolfspraul>
that's why I put half my energy behind Ben, half behind Milkymist
<roh>
good soc support/drivercode comes from people who know not one vendor, but 10 and how their hw works, register wise. people working for vendors have a much too limited view on the field. they only know in-house concepts it seems sometimes
<wpwrak>
roh: i think wolfgang is barking up that tree just for R&D financing. hopefully getting enough to pay for hw and sw :)
<wolfspraul>
I think many soc makers will quit, yes
<wolfspraul>
TI is supposedly trying to sell OMAP for years
<roh>
wpwrak: that would be nice, sure. but then they also need to deliver some soc which is atleast a class better than whats in ben
<wpwrak>
but ... at the moment, the ben's prospect doesn't look rosy. work on the software has dwindled to a trickle.
<wolfspraul>
nvidia has never sold in retail
<wolfspraul>
marvell is moving in a similar direction
<wolfspraul>
they are in a difficult spot
<wpwrak>
there is no new hardware in sight.
<roh>
wolfspraul: i just had a marvell develboard tablet clone on my desk. android, very badly made, low end crap.. but still >600bogomips
<wpwrak>
roh: maybe TI would then be a better tree ? they may want to hear some barking
<wolfspraul>
way too big
<roh>
i cannot see them making real money on that. one lawsuit and there is no return of investment for that product anymore.
<wolfspraul>
if TI is lucky, Amazon helps them beat their OMAP business in shape for a sale
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: first there needs to be a business opportunity
<wpwrak>
(too big) TI or the OMAP ?
<roh>
wpwrak: no. ti doest 'their thing' ... i don't believe in their recent change of heart. also the hw is much too complicated for making new designs from scratch
<wpwrak>
the biz opportunity could be design wins to rub under people's nose
<wolfspraul>
I am fairly relaxed about the ben
<wpwrak>
how's the user base growing ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I sell maybe 5-10 a month
<wpwrak>
talk about exclusive :)
<wolfspraul>
but when I lean back and think, what I want to work on is kicad, boom, mechanical, better collaboration with Ingenic
<wolfspraul>
the software has a lot of room for improvement if we are able to upstream more, polish, fix loose ends, etc.
<wpwrak>
so, half a wolfgang and half a xiangfu, working on the revenue from 5-10 bens per month. let's say the ben's margin is 50%. that's USD 500 at best. can wolfgang and xiangfu live on EUR 1000 per month, shared ?
<wolfspraul>
the memory, pixel resolution and mhz constraints don't bother me that much right now because they will lift up everything once we make a device with bigger specs, and if we have to go to Milkymist first, it's a protection against expecting too much from Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
oh, my math is different
<wpwrak>
the problem of the ben is that it's getting stale. like bread.
<wolfspraul>
first there are tons of businesses loosing money with Android
<wolfspraul>
how much longer do they want to do that?
<wolfspraul>
we see
<wolfspraul>
then, there are tons of other businesses that want to move software stacks into their existing non-computing products
<wolfspraul>
they are all potential customers
<wolfspraul>
we cannot make the Ben a great smartphone (or tablet), but that's clear to everybody I think
<wolfspraul>
1. continue selling and supporting the Ben NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
2. try to help with upstreaming, polishing, porting apps, fixing bugs, adding features, coming out with new software releases
<wolfspraul>
3. prepare/remove some blockers for future products, especially mechanical related
<wpwrak>
creating a new product costs money. for a midi controller, you also need to ensure great compatibility with the proprietary software people use, ableton and friends.
<wolfspraul>
4. keep looking for business opportunities (customers or investors) that could help define the exact specs of the Ya and then go for it
<wolfspraul>
not if we mainly sell it with m1 :-)
<wpwrak>
1-3 are life support. 4 is the important one
<wolfspraul>
they connect together. supporting customers is no life support.
<wpwrak>
m1 itself is a difficult basis. you're creating a niche for a niche.
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
it could be the wrong bet, same as the NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
but I very happily takes those bets, I think you do too, no? :-)
<wolfspraul>
the other day Jon and I were a little frustrated sitting somewhere
<wolfspraul>
then I asked him to imagine that we work for resolume.com sales
<wolfspraul>
and we have to sell some crappy tiny new features in our crappy proprietary software to so and so many customers before the end of the month
<wpwrak>
maybe 10-20 m1 in active use. in half a year you'll have your controller. let's say 25% of the m1 users will want one (the rest will long have bought something else). so that's maybe 5 units you'll sell.
<wolfspraul>
felt better right away :-)
<wolfspraul>
I described my action items.
<wolfspraul>
what are the alternatives you have in mind?
<wpwrak>
the midi controler doens't make sense if you don't want to go beyond m1 with it
<wolfspraul>
if the Amazon Fire would be available in Germany, I would have gotten one for my parents as Christmas gift :-)
<wolfspraul>
I will continue on this product path, it feels and is exactly right.
<wolfspraul>
nanonote, m1, then we see
<wolfspraul>
if others have better things to do - great
<wpwrak>
alternatives: first and foremost, find financing for finishing m1. i don't think you can complete the project without putting more money on the table. and i don't think your own pockets are deep enough.
<wolfspraul>
Jon pushed me about speakers earlier this year, which I totally dismissed. until suddenly HTC shelled out 500+ million (!) usd for "dr. dre's beats"
<wpwrak>
getting m1 rolling will also buy you time
<wolfspraul>
yes agree
<wolfspraul>
we are on the same page about making our stuff big
<wolfspraul>
instead of a hobby
<wolfspraul>
screw hobby
<wolfspraul>
but if you complain about silence and such - that doesn't worry me, a true contrarian :-)
<wolfspraul>
silence means something good is happening
<wpwrak>
(speakers) well, one lucky company among probably hundreds :) and they may have been at it for decades
<wolfspraul>
the herd is always the herd. when we are the herd we have a few years left and then it's over.
<wolfspraul>
no, I think this is a brilliant move
<wpwrak>
i'm afraid that in the case of the ben, it simply means that people have left
<wolfspraul>
wish I still had access to Cher to chat with her about it :-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't disagree
<wolfspraul>
10-20 active users is too low though
<wolfspraul>
maybe 50-100 I think
<wpwrak>
or maybe they're still around, but more of habit than because of something else
<wolfspraul>
Werner - the speaker move is different
<wolfspraul>
this is not some beggar case
<wolfspraul>
the tech industry is changing
<wolfspraul>
phones are dead
<wolfspraul>
if Amazon Fire becomes a success, tablets are dead too
<wolfspraul>
PCs are dead, notebooks are dead
<wolfspraul>
where's the innovation?
<wpwrak>
(speakers) sure. it's a profitable biz. at least for some. but the htc windfall is pretty unique.
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
I think partially they buy channel, they buy access to channel that is used to lower-margin and lower-cost products.
<wolfspraul>
because the phones of the future will cost 50 USD
<wolfspraul>
of the near future
<wpwrak>
let's wait and see how long tablets stay fashionable as "pc killers". most likely, they'll keep the casual and highly mobile segment. but i don't see them as more than a fad in the office.
<wolfspraul>
people pay more for their headphones now than for their phone!
<wolfspraul>
the sources of money towards innovative ideas change
<wolfspraul>
we need to find the new sources, not chase the old ones
<wpwrak>
yes, many things now simply get commodized
<wolfspraul>
me and Jon are on this
<wpwrak>
indeed. no tablets :)
<wpwrak>
retro is an option. the nanonote fits that segment.
<wpwrak>
go to places the herd has already vacated and where some new grass has grown since.
<wolfspraul>
I am surprised that it seems the openpandora guys in germany were able to get a 350k EUR investment for their next round of production attempts
<wolfspraul>
by going directly to their community and asking for private investments
<wolfspraul>
great move!
<wpwrak>
maybe you should try that for M1 :)
<wolfspraul>
I really hope they can deliver this time
<wolfspraul>
definitely that's an option
<wolfspraul>
but I don't want to burn through other peoples money unless everybody is clear about the risks
<wolfspraul>
did you see the latest dr. schaller announcement?
<wolfspraul>
he will real-soon-now have some gta04 boards
<wolfspraul>
and selling them for 666 EUR
<wolfspraul>
how about elphel? are they able to move forward from the 353 to 373 as planned for years? so far - not yet.
<wolfspraul>
I think we need to look for opportunities outside this...
<wpwrak>
maybe what you really need to do is find someone who has fewer scruples than you. then that person can take care of finding the financing ;-)
<wolfspraul>
sure, possible
<wolfspraul>
that person can happily take all files that we are sharing, right?
<wpwrak>
that too :)
<wolfspraul>
since afaik I hold nothing back, it's all there...
<roh>
hm. i somehow dont like the speakers thing. pa stuff is a tricky market. and the stuff is heavy (shipping expensive) and not something people put into their homes (well.. pa != hifi by far)
<wolfspraul>
I won't get into speakers now
<wpwrak>
but you'd be surprised by how hard it is to get people to steal from you
<wpwrak>
that is, unless you make a big fuss about protecting your valuables
<roh>
dont like as in 'i dont think thats something to make money out of' ... rather something one does as a hobby (building speakers from parts, and wood.. with time)
<wolfspraul>
roh: I just mentioned it because the Dr. Dre's Beats purchase by HTC surprised so many people
<wolfspraul>
let's say 'everyone'
<wolfspraul>
read the tech press - nobody gets it
<wolfspraul>
neither do I... but then - why did they do it?
<wolfspraul>
crazy?
<wolfspraul>
cool brand?
<wolfspraul>
no way
<roh>
wolfspraul: i dont know what htc purchased exactly. is that hw?
<wolfspraul>
you try to get 500 million USD from a bean counter...
<roh>
seems more like a marketing spin to me
<wolfspraul>
you probably don't even know that brand :-)
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wolfspraul>
we are all in tech asylum...
<wolfspraul>
there's a world out there, and in that world people are paying 180 - 600 USD for their *headphones*
<wolfspraul>
since phone prices are collapsing, that's a smart move to keep the business healthy. make the money not from the phone, but from the headphone you are able to upsell to x% of your phone customers
<wpwrak>
maybe we should make vibrators. customers should be willing to pay a premium for good quality and an extraordinary user experience.
<wolfspraul>
I talk about real things, not speculation.
<wpwrak>
put a chip inside, add wireless, than it can be programmed. maybe add remote control. though i think this has already been done
<wolfspraul>
so there is no Ya NanoNote that simply upticks all specs, that's true. afaik nobody works on that.
<wolfspraul>
but the Ben NanoNote tech is very much alive as the basis for the next product, imho
<wpwrak>
i think the main spec a ya should uptick is the openness
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
mechanical mainly
<wolfspraul>
lower volume, easier and more interesting customization for anybody
<wpwrak>
yes, mechanical is still a big black hole for us
<wolfspraul>
I want to look into aluminum lasering and milling, long-term plan but eventually I'll get to it.
<roh>
wolfspraul: dont misinterpret a stupidness of loud and (in total numbers) not hat important hipsters
<wpwrak>
ideally a ya wouldn't have to be economically successful. develop it to the point where it can function as a product, but don't kill yourself over trying to sell it.
<wolfspraul>
with m1 we've learnt a lot about acrylic, and that's good. but aluminum could be promising too.
<wpwrak>
if it sells, great. if not, the knowledge is value enough.
<wolfspraul>
roh: I'm talking about financial power to finance innovation.
<wpwrak>
of course, to pull that off, you need something even rarer than investors: sponsors
<wolfspraul>
you cannot finance innovation with 50 USD products, nobody can
<roh>
i dont know anybody paying 600us$ for headphones. i know people paying some hundred (well.. anything below 60E is a toy), but thats nothing new but because its a real tool (djs, people who work with that stuff)
<wolfspraul>
either if the volume is low you have no chance to recoup your investment, or if the volume has to be high you cannot take risks on any serious innovation that may be misunderstood (i.e. not sell)
<roh>
wolfspraul: if you want to sell stuff, dont build something expensive and special. build something ubiquitous, which everybody would want and can use
<wolfspraul>
people pay thousands of USD for headphones :-)
<wolfspraul>
do you know how many do that?
<wpwrak>
that's why i'd hope for a context for the ya where it doesn't have to be a commercial success
<wolfspraul>
I don't
<wolfspraul>
but that's risky
<wolfspraul>
see that's my point
<wpwrak>
low risk. if you find sponsorship, you're good :)
<wolfspraul>
we may be overlooking easier access to financing innovation
<wolfspraul>
because we are stuck in what Jon nicely calls the dudeloop
<wpwrak>
yes, social networking :)
<roh>
maybe you should think about using something like kickstarter... well.. its only for us people but maybe there is a clone who also likes europe and asia
<wolfspraul>
roh: how many people buy a > 300 USD headphone per year?
<roh>
wolfspraul: non i know of.
<wpwrak>
the wireless cpubrator would kinda get us out of the dudeloop ...
<wolfspraul>
how many people buy a > 1000 USD headphone per year?
<wolfspraul>
oh I don't know the answers either
<roh>
300E headphones work for years and you get spareparts (beyerdynamics, sennheiser, etc)
<wolfspraul>
but at least I feel uneasy about that and want to know :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wpwrak>
one good thing about audio is that it appeals to almost everyone. so the potential market is huge. and even the craziest niches may be big enough to survive.
<roh>
we agree that we dont want to build crap, right? so we build stuff which people do not need to buy multiple times, if its not a) cheap and b) makes sense to own multiple ones.
<wolfspraul>
what I can tell you after some years in hardware now is that it is nearly impossible to make an innovative new hardware product if the absolute price of the product is too low
<wpwrak>
and with headphones, it's always the same basic product. whether they're USD 1 or 10k
<roh>
so i think we need something simple, which makes sense to own more than one, which is cheap enough to give away as a gift and it needs to be practical
<roh>
maybe you need something like a twitter client on ben and wifi on it
<wolfspraul>
if the typical computing categories are all destroyed from a pricepoint perspective, then we need to look for categories outside of the traditional computer industry
<roh>
wolfspraul: i think embedded hw is outside that already.. its rather 'CE'
<roh>
consumer electronics
<wolfspraul>
I had a realization one day in a restaurant that the steak in front of me cost more than a cheap Android wifi touchphone.
<wolfspraul>
I chewed on that for a while ;-)
<wolfspraul>
(mentally)
<wolfspraul>
then I realized that I simply have to get my head out of dead or dying categories.
<roh>
ack. i also dont see any sense in competing with that markets
<wolfspraul>
not that I can claim I have found any gold yet...
<roh>
maybe we should draw a map and cross off stuff till we see whats left
<wolfspraul>
I'm helping a friend with a LED lamp power supply right now
<wolfspraul>
nothing serious just responding to a call of duty
<wolfspraul>
maybe I learn something
<roh>
btw.. thats why i do my own homebus devices. everything existing is locked in and not really practical or extensible
<roh>
or horribly expensive
<wolfspraul>
homebus?
<wolfspraul>
yes sure, I can imagine
<wolfspraul>
one day this open hw stuff we are doing here will really take off
<wolfspraul>
I am 100% sure about that
<roh>
home automatisation. from switching lights to audiosystem integration and controlling beamers and motors
<wolfspraul>
but how and when and where - not so sure
<wolfspraul>
the Ben NanoNote did not take off the way it is, no need to sugarcoat that
<wolfspraul>
but it remains as an alive pioneering platform
<roh>
true.
<wolfspraul>
so let's see...
<roh>
my bet the major problem there is connectivity
<wolfspraul>
even if only 2 people are left active, they have a chance to change the world :-)
<wolfspraul>
don't know
<wolfspraul>
to compete with what?
<wolfspraul>
with the Android storm?
<roh>
i mean.. i could imagine little girls using it as chat devices if not offline only
<wolfspraul>
the smartphone that integrated 1 gazillion features?
<roh>
comptete with the android bottlestorm
<wolfspraul>
of course more features would be nice
<roh>
or in generic with the price battle for mediocre lock-in stuff
<wolfspraul>
more memory, more pixel resolution, usb host, atben, etc.
<roh>
wolfspraul: all nice. but even with the current spec we could sell loads more devices if you only add ip
<wolfspraul>
ip?
<roh>
eh. as in tcp-ip. and i fear as nice as it is, atben is not the solution for 'normal customers' but geeks
<roh>
atleast thats the showstopper for every usecase i or somebody else comes up with
<wolfspraul>
I use my notebook to create Ben connectivity
<roh>
well.. what do i need the ben for then? i already got a linuxcomputer with screen and kbd already then
<wolfspraul>
and actually, we have far too few good software on it now utilizing connectivity, that's one area where I hope we improve a little to have a better starting point once we have the connectivity
<wolfspraul>
much more portable
<roh>
i personally would pack it when i go out and have no notebook with me if it would have connectivity
<roh>
as mobile ssh terminal
<wolfspraul>
then you would want 3g?
<roh>
nope. i got wifi at enough places
<wpwrak>
roh: you're not thinking big enough. important people have personal assistants, bodyguards, drivers. so these can tote the laptop, while the VIPs just have the Ben ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: too nice. and still needs cables -> not practical -> unrealistic
<roh>
connectivity needs to work without the need for additional devices around (no external wifi sticks, usbcables etc)
<wpwrak>
roh: your underlings can also handle the cables for you ;-)
<wpwrak>
"The $10,000 amp is a magnificent work of industrial design, and it's handcrafted in NYC."
<wolfspraul>
so "the headphone market is expanding at rapid rate"
<wolfspraul>
aha
<wolfspraul>
we dismiss that?
<wolfspraul>
bullshit
<wolfspraul>
marketing
<wolfspraul>
idiot cool kids
<wolfspraul>
any other dismissal ideas?
<wolfspraul>
what's happenign to the notebook market?
<roh>
wolfspraul: dont get off-set by high-end audio crazies.
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
just an example
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how are your ME skills ? ;-)
<roh>
whats happening? nothing. serious business notebooks still are at 1500-2000euro
<wolfspraul>
here's another thought I had the other day
<roh>
nothing new. you only get faster stuff with more ram etc. but you still shell out the 4000deutschmark ;) every 3-5 years for the same level of quality
<wolfspraul>
I know, because I was there. In the 1980's, regular professionals, dads with families, saved for months (!) to be able to buy a "home computer".
<wolfspraul>
for 2000 USD
<wolfspraul>
then they bought peripherals, for 500-1000 USD each maybe
<wolfspraul>
how many such people existed in the 80's?
<wolfspraul>
hundreds of thousands, millions
<wolfspraul>
so why on earth did they do that?
<wpwrak>
the good old days, when china was still a distant mysterious country :)
<wolfspraul>
what could they do with those "home computers"?
<roh>
nah.  you overestimate
<wolfspraul>
these people helped finance the PC revolution/innovation
<wolfspraul>
I think the money is still the same nowadays, but it goes elsewhere
<roh>
most people had real low end stuff. i know nobody who had a 'new computer' in the 90s even. we all scraped stuff together from siblings, aunts, uncles etc.. used hw from businesses...
<wolfspraul>
if we come out with a 2000 USD 'open' smartphone, we sell 200 of it, worldwide
<C-Keen>
would buy one
<roh>
business financed the pc revolution. having machines only half as expensive as before because there were more than one vendor for a change which supplied isa cards
<wolfspraul>
C-Keen: :-)
<wolfspraul>
I know we would have a good chance at findings those few crazy guys :-)
<valhalla>
imho there is a big difference between "standalone connectivity", "connectivity with a small stick" and "connectivity only through a device that does everything the nn does, but better"
<wolfspraul>
my point was that the people and money still exist
<wolfspraul>
but the money goes elsewhere now
<wpwrak>
to patent trolls ;-)
<C-Keen>
wolfspraul: I have had a openmoko at my former job but it was a bit disappointing, as the processor was underpowered for almost all UIs there were (and it had some serious HW bugs)
<wolfspraul>
which I cannot even complain about
<wolfspraul>
so the way to kick new life into the NanoNote is to find a new business opportunity
<wolfspraul>
roh: I think you underestimate the changes in the notebook market since the ipad
<wolfspraul>
of course tablets may still go away, be a fad, etc. who knows the future...
<wolfspraul>
but. I can tell you any investment in anything notebook related has a lot more risk alarms going off now, because you have to bet against the tablet hype (real or not).
<C-Keen>
as I see it, there is a trend back to specialised small (and cheap) devices and general purpose computers will only play a role for geeks and professionals
<wolfspraul>
I would question the (and cheap)
<roh>
wolfspraul: ipads arent computers
<wolfspraul>
Acer for example is hard hit in many ways from all this. I read an interview with their CEO, where he first tries to motivate the entire 'notebook industry' to be more daring and invest in innovation, and then in the same interview he goes on to praise his new line that is more low-cost than before, etc.
<C-Keen>
well the low end android tablets are ~99 EUR here, for people that want to do webmail and surfing. There people would have bought a ~600 EUR PC before
<wolfspraul>
that's bizarre
<roh>
its a toy, nothing to work with seriously outside of management (<5%)
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
management is not serious? :-)
<wolfspraul>
I think you underestimate this.
<roh>
i dont think they (tablets) will vanish completely again, but they are quite limited, expensive and only good for low end tasks (resolution and usability wise)
<C-Keen>
my point is that most consumers are satisfied with low end tasks
<roh>
tried inputting a text into a tablet before? its hell. regardless if apple, google or expensive or cheap. touchscreens are not keyboards.
<wolfspraul>
oh I will not get one
<wolfspraul>
but if the Amazon Fire would be available in Germany now, I would get one as christmas gift for my parents
<C-Keen>
roh: and I thought typing SMS text on a number keypad is awkward but any teeny on the tram can outperform me there tenfold
<roh>
management is no market. the mass of devices is bought by the regular joe user, not mr management. remember.. there are thousands of joes for every 'manager'
<wolfspraul>
they can get started, then a year later buy the next version with camera etc.
<wolfspraul>
I think notebooks will continue to stay where they are now
<wolfspraul>
slowly eroding prices
<roh>
C-Keen: maybe. but i still outperform a teeny on a smartphone even with keys when i got a 84-105 key keyboard and i can still type full real english while the kid uses some kind of abbreviated broken stuff
<wolfspraul>
but most importantly - nobody will touch anything major in the product anymore
<wolfspraul>
the supply chain has no money, down to the last participant
<C-Keen>
roh: I agree, my point is that there are more teenies in the market than people like me and you
<roh>
wolfspraul: nobody did the last 10 years. so thats nothing new
<wolfspraul>
yes but people will be bored of notebooks, want something new
<roh>
wolfspraul: i got notebooks around which are from 1996. they have THE SAME features as new ones. just slower, and less performing
<wolfspraul>
which the notebook manufacturers will not have
<roh>
so what?
<roh>
you remember how lightswitches work? check the 'innovation' there the.. last 100 years. none
<roh>
does it matter? not really.
<wolfspraul>
ah yes. agreed. but we are looking for ways to finance innovative hardware, hardware that has complex software stacks inside.
<wolfspraul>
and I think it will be in embedded somewhere, outside of traditional computer categories.
<roh>
i think the new thing is that 'stuff communicates'
<roh>
thats the only change which is new in 'devices'
<wolfspraul>
and whether you are still so positive about notebooks, let's see in 2-3 years
<wolfspraul>
maybe they force you to buy a Dell notebook with Windows preinstalled and you have to run Linux in a virtual machine :-)
<roh>
even ms and apple got that (see daap, dmap, etc... upnp/dlna)
<wolfspraul>
just kidding, just kidding
<wolfspraul>
when the money disappears, things can get ugly quick, because lots of people withdraw
<C-Keen>
at least in my peer group notebooks are drop in replacements for desktops for most people
<roh>
C-Keen: ack. i also only know a few people using stationary machines now.
<wolfspraul>
gamers still go for it
<wolfspraul>
and people that really want the absolute lowest-cost, or has that changed already?
<roh>
we got 'some few' shared ones (the lasercutter has one, the cnc mill has one... our shared eating table has one) .. but personal machines are all laptops nowadays
<roh>
wolfspraul: these people use something like an eeepc
<roh>
lowest-cost includes power. and stationary machines from 2-3 years ago (and everything atx-ish) eats about 200-300W easily
<roh>
a netbook eats 20W
<C-Keen>
that has changed wolfspraul, I bought a used thinkpad T61 for 160 EUR, as these machines are being replaced in all companies that used them for 3 years
<roh>
thats about 30E atleast difference in montly power savings already
<roh>
C-Keen: good pick. (besides the nvidia gpu) ;)
<C-Keen>
roh: oh well I live mostily in textland
<wolfspraul>
ah
<wolfspraul>
textland
<wolfspraul>
Jon believes we should make the NanoNote all about console
<wolfspraul>
he thinks hacking text in console is cool and will attract people
<wolfspraul>
give them access to the guts...
<roh>
wolfspraul: maybe not the worst idea. has only quite limited amounts of pixels
<roh>
but for 'endusers' that will fail
<wolfspraul>
it's very easy to change in the image, and our console support is quite good
<wolfspraul>
just saying because C-Keen mentioned textland...
<roh>
meh. now.. up to the postoffice. need to pick up a letter they wouldnt deliver for some weird reason
<wolfspraul>
oh
<wolfspraul>
that was the trick they tried once to arrest me :-)
<wolfspraul>
didn't work though, I have my 6th sense
<C-Keen>
what happened?
<wolfspraul>
disagreement over how to best serve my country :-)
<C-Keen>
ah :)
<wolfspraul>
but what I learnt was how easily the postal service sold itself out to cheap tricks like a letter they 'wouldn't deliver for some weird reason', so I was smiling
<wolfspraul>
good old times (new times are also good :-))
<wolfspraul>
C-Keen: if you have a NanoNote, what do you use it for?
<C-Keen>
wolfspraul: note taking, keeping track of expenses while on the road, ogg player and occasionally playing interactive fiction
<wolfspraul>
not bad
<wolfspraul>
interactive fiction, hmm
<wolfspraul>
I wish that ifarchive site would have more easily identifiable free stuff, but alas, they don't
<wolfspraul>
their worry for freedom stops with themselves :-)
<C-Keen>
yes
<wolfspraul>
since you asked about sales earlier, the one thing that is not good yet is that afaik we sold only 1 m1 to a nanonote customer
<wolfspraul>
I haven't made a real push/outreach to nanonote customers yet, but some should have noticed the m1 by now
<C-Keen>
m1 = milkymist?
<wolfspraul>
that goes along Werner's line that the few nanonote users that are hanging out on the list or elsewhere are mostly not interested in new stuff anymore
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
milkymist one, sorry
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
it's a 499 USD product compared to the 99 USD nanonote
<wolfspraul>
but if we built up some trust, we should be able to sell some m1 to nanonote customers
<wolfspraul>
so far that was only 1 case
<wolfspraul>
that is not good
<wolfspraul>
since the new product is 5 times more expensive, let's say maybe it's even an option only for 10% of nanonote customers
<roh>
meh
<roh>
the thing which didnt fit into the mailbox is a vinyl disc from uk *g*
<C-Keen>
well they are quite different. the nanonote being an inexpensive ultra portable device you could hand out to your kids against a (inexpensive, compared to others) video processing platform
<wolfspraul>
anyway that's one thing that hasn't worked out
<C-Keen>
so I can imagine that people that buy a nanonote don't need to be attracted by the m1
<valhalla>
also, spending 99USD for something you don't have a real use for is one thing, spending 499 USD is another, even if you like the project
<C-Keen>
that too
<roh>
i mean.. i like vinyl somehow, sometimes.. its just so ucky to package and ship
<valhalla>
(not saying that I don't use the NN, it's just that I could have used other devices I already own to do the same things)
<C-Keen>
valhalla: what do you use it for?
<valhalla>
mostly to read my (git managed) grocery list while shopping and playing music
<C-Keen>
oh and freedroid :p
<roh>
hm. music... bad topic. anybody an idea which music player can handle roughly 250-300gbyte of mp3, flac, ogg etc (stuff gstreamer can decode) music?
<valhalla>
it's also always in my handbag, and sometimes I take quick notes, or play games while waiting in a unexpected queue
<roh>
ah.. and for a funny additional thing.. 'sync that back and forth' ;)
<valhalla>
roh: why is music bad topic?
<roh>
valhalla: its unsolved. even in proprietary systems (most handle it worse)
<C-Keen>
roh: I would use unison for syncing and not rely on the music playing software
<roh>
C-Keen: the issue is not syncing the raw files. its syncing the content, metadata changes etc
<roh>
i havent seen a working 3-way diff of mp3 file metadata
<C-Keen>
roh: but the metadata is surely manifested somewhere?
<valhalla>
I use git annex to sync, and keep oggs on SD and flac on an external hard disk; also I don't really have metadata other than that is embedded in the files
<valhalla>
and it doesn't change
<roh>
C-Keen: in a per-fileformat special container.. mp3 its usually id3.. ogg its somewhere in there.. etc.
<roh>
and it DOES change.. e.g. when i fix tags.
<C-Keen>
roh: ah I see, you are on your own with that
<C-Keen>
roh: most syncing software your do a rolling hash and sync the whole file (like rsync)
<valhalla>
git + git-annex would work if the metadata was in another file (which it isn't)
<roh>
well.. it fails on the size of my stash already. ive seen itunes etc bail when they try importing it
<valhalla>
I wonder how hard it would be to add support for ogg metadata in straight git
<roh>
mmh.. git performs badly with loads of stuff.
<valhalla>
mostly with big stuff rather than loads of it
<roh>
i know. i administrated git-servers on which some loonies develop linux kernels ;)
<roh>
at some point its really a ressource hog. but hey.. compared to what it does its ok
<roh>
but it _really_ needs memory sometimes.. and it _really_ wants its sockets to be available.. or weird things happen
<roh>
anyhow... harddisks need to get really expensive to make flash cheap enough for such collections on the go and have fun
<roh>
btw.. anybody played with usb3 yet?
<roh>
as in.. is it fun? with linux? does it make disk-io bearable?
<bartbes>
roh: did you see the prices of hdds lately?
<roh>
yep. more than doubled
<bartbes>
well then..
<bartbes>
also, have you tried mpd?
<roh>
not by far useable
<roh>
i currently use rhythmbox and do not own any mobile player.
<bartbes>
not usable?
<bartbes>
why?
<roh>
mpd? shitty userinteface. broken concept about its content 'management'
<C-Keen>
there is not content management ;)
<roh>
you see?
<bartbes>
what management are you looking for then?
<bartbes>
also, you can't simply judge the ui of a server..
<roh>
bartbes: basically working daap support.
<bartbes>
right
<roh>
i also use it to copy stuff around (you can just dragndrop files from remote daap servers into your local collection
<roh>
push would be nice... but one cannot have everything
<bartbes>
the solution is obviously itunes :P
<roh>
nope. that one can do less (no copying, no proper codec support)
<bartbes>
":P" should have told you I was joking
<wolfspraul>
roh: sorry going back to the earlier chat... please keep us posted about your home automation projects and thoughts
<wolfspraul>
I think there are many opportunities there, somewhere
<wolfspraul>
as you said right now there are a lot of locked and/or overly expensive systems, for understandable reasons
<wolfspraul>
or we all wait until Apple makes the brilliant iHome system and then the whole world is happy
<wolfspraul>
I think that won't happen, but the smaller manufacturers may struggle getting all the tech pieces together and not having their r&d costs explode
<wolfspraul>
that's where open hardware can help, if we do it right. we just have to search for the right opportunity, so please holler and share your discoveries
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: if you mean that archive.org content is not integrate with any software, you should see/try banshee
<kristianpaul>
if you mearn in the early chat :)
<xiangfu_>
there is seems some conflict on ks7010 and 802154 stuff. have to figure out tomorrow.
<xiangfu_>
that is the only thing I didn't test more. now it have problem again.
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: wpwrak: thanks for best wirshes, seems it helped :-D