12:07 <cc___> hello people

15:56 <enyc> =we not sure if https://neo900.org/news/2016-week-47 actually got announced in this channel...!

16:10 <MonkeyofDoom> what does maemo use cgroups for?

16:23 <enyc> Good job on the news post, and the 'spring crowdfunding' when proto available, trying to show a 'path to completion' and all!

16:40 <enyc> I'm definitely wondering what changed about limited USB busses and switchability, what compromises were made there, when using modem what else CANNOT be used at same time, etc etc... ??

22:50 <Joerg-Neo900> fil: the device ships with no OS basically. It's up to community to provide maemo fremantle and SHR and FSO and replicant and... It's just the factory test tools and board support package (aka BSP) that comes inside a devuan based system, which however has absolutely no relevance to user

22:51 <Joerg-Neo900> also you're aware you can *very* easily 'upgrade' any devuan system to a full debian by simply installing systemd?

22:52 <Joerg-Neo900> or rather, change the sources.lst to point to debian repo and the do an apt get dist-upgrade or somesuch

22:52 <fil> what makes you think that Debian requires systemd?

22:52 <Wizzup> is this a useful discussipn?

22:53 <Wizzup> devuan people are very helpful

22:53 <Wizzup> helping getting everything ready

22:53 <Joerg-Neo900> no, not at all, Wizzup

22:53 <Wizzup> you can install whatever you want

22:53 <Joerg-Neo900> not a useful discussion

22:54 <fil> I know that -- I also know how well a coherent comunity emerged out of the OpenMoko's "you can install anything"

22:54 <Wizzup> the sw side is not neo900's direct priority, but there's a good hope maemo will be there in some form, as Joerg-Neo900 said

22:58 <Joerg-Neo900> fil: when you're not concerned about systemd then what are your worries at all? except for the systemd-requiring and related packages, devuan's amprolla (the repository infra) forwards to debian repos for all packages

22:59 <Joerg-Neo900> ~#devuan amprolla

22:59 <Joerg-Neo900> ~amprolla

22:59 <infobot> nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla

23:02 <fil> My concern is that by fracturing your potential community, you're making the software side as viable as the OpenMoko turned out to be, which is a) disapointing, and b) enough for me to decide not to bother actually gooing ahead with my purchase -- also, the justification strikes me a clueless, being based on non-facts

23:02 <Wizzup> w

23:02 <Wizzup> how is the choice for a bsp fracturing the community?

23:02 <fil> if wat the announcement was really about is that Devuan folk are helping build things, that's great I suppose

23:04 <Joerg-Neo900> I'm sorry to hear your perception of what Neo900 is and does is focused on a OS rather than the community that is interested in the hardware since that hardware warrants liberty to *choose* whatever OS you like

23:04 <Joerg-Neo900> then OTOH there's hardly anything we can do about it to help

23:04 <Wizzup> fil: there are efforts to bring comm together

23:06 <Joerg-Neo900> just for a trvial factoid: most of our community has its origins in maemo

23:06 <Joerg-Neo900> then there's a considerable part from openmoko

23:06 <Joerg-Neo900> and both are happy the *device* supports their needs to run *their* distro

23:07 <Joerg-Neo900> and Neo900 UG supports them both actively

23:07 <Joerg-Neo900> then we have quite a few replicant/android folks too

23:07 <Joerg-Neo900> none complained so far about devuan

23:09 <fil> Joerg-Neo900: there was an announcement about Devuan in the weekly news -- that's at odds with the previous impression given by the draft specs -- saying there's nothing you can do about my perception seems to ignore the fact that you could have not announced that in that way (if that's not what you meant)

23:09 <Joerg-Neo900> actually nobody who really looked into devuan complained about it so far, since they all realize devuan is 100% debian compatible and ultra-easy to migrate a system devuan->debian. The inverse however is ... what devuan works on since 2 years already

23:11 <Joerg-Neo900> sorry again when you feel offended or tricked by us using supporting devuan

23:11 <Joerg-Neo900> we are however not feeling like dicriminating anybody

23:11 <Joerg-Neo900> and we're no debian support and PR project

23:12 <fil> not offended -- it just strikes me as clueless -- especially when the reasoning seems pretty flawed

23:12 <Joerg-Neo900> debian will work on Neo900, 100% and without any wires attached

23:12 <fil> sure

23:12 <Joerg-Neo900> the reasoning is perfect

23:13 <Wizzup> fil: the devuan folk are helpful in making things work, so why not reach out and get the bsp readied

23:13 <Wizzup> if you bring people from $other_distro, that's fine too

23:13 <Wizzup> in the end it's just a BSP

23:13 <Joerg-Neo900> what's unclear about >>Maemo is the recommended OS for Neo900<< ?

23:14 <Joerg-Neo900> it always been and nothing has changed there

23:14 <fil> I had just hoped that Maemo might have a future where its delta to Debian would have some prospect of evaporating, so intoducing a new delta seems like a retrograde step to me

23:15 <Joerg-Neo900> sorry but THAT is flawed reasoning. Debian is moving into the swamps while maemo stays what it always been: based on *classic* debian

23:15 <Joerg-Neo900> aka devuan nowadays

23:16 <fil> Joerg-Neo900: so, where on the specs page does it say Maemo for the Neo900?

23:16 <Joerg-Neo900> where on the specs page does it say Neo900 UG does software?

23:17 <fil> what am I suposed to understand "Bundled Software" to mean?

23:17 <Joerg-Neo900> see above: Board support Package

23:19 <Joerg-Neo900> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_support_package for really all that matters this BSP is neither devuan nor debian but probably so much stripped down that you couldn't tell the difference

23:20 <fil> ah, fair enough -- in that case, my only complaint is that a) the way that's presented on the specs is misleading, and b) the weekly news is worded in such a way as to propogate that misunderstanding, and make the Devuan announcement seem vastly more signifigant than it really is

23:20 <Joerg-Neo900> but when you try hard to classify it, then you'll notice it looks like debian (just like devuan does)

23:20 <Wizzup> fil: if parts of maemo get updated to work with devuan, they will work debian too...

23:20 <Wizzup> the hard work is not just packaging, it's making it work with current sw, with/without patches

23:21 <fil> s/propogate/perpetuate/

23:27 <fil> I'm aware -- and if there is nothing particularly Devuan specific here, then I'm back to wondering what the announcement is really trying to say. As for the reasoning being perfect "Maemo pre-dates the mandatory use of systemd in Debian" -- systemd is still optional in Debian, and on some architectures is not even available

23:29 <fil> also, the merged usr stuff is an option -- what's changed there is that if you continue to have a split / and /usr, it's unsuported unless you use an initrd

23:30 <Wizzup> none of this is new, I think

23:30 <Joerg-Neo900> yeah, in those architectures also no pulseaudio, no KDE, no Gnome, no network manager and a pitifully increasiing number of systemd-depending packages is available then

23:30 <fil> where "unsuported" means, it will continue to work for many scenarios, but if it doesn't that's your problem -- which is pretty much the status quo

23:30 <Joerg-Neo900> and for sure no maemo will work

23:31 <Wizzup> some of us may be opinionated about systemd (me included), but in this case the choice for devuan was simple

23:31 <Wizzup> let's not turn it into a systemd-tech discussion here, as that seems not useful/warranted, etc

23:31 <fil> does maemo need Gnome3?

23:31 <Joerg-Neo900> fil: I'm active in the devuan community and I know a tad of what's working without systemd and what *does not*

23:31 <Wizzup> does maemo need systemd?

23:31 <Wizzup> (no and no)

23:32 <Joerg-Neo900> whole devuna is *inly* about catching up the fallout of systemd creaping in to everything

23:32 <Wizzup> I mean, as indicated, unless people from the debian community step up and do the same work - it's simple, it won't happen, and devuan is just a fine target

23:32 <Wizzup> moving it to debian afterwards will be piece of cake -- hard part is not there

23:33 <Wizzup> let's just get somewhere first, and then figure out how easy it is to move it to debian if you're interested

23:33 <Joerg-Neo900> sorry, I think this whole discussion is leading nowhere, and i'm busy

23:34 <Wizzup> sleep-time here :)

23:34 <Joerg-Neo900> just a last word: for MAEMO the devuan support is vital

23:34 <Joerg-Neo900> so the relevance of this newspost part depends on where you come from

23:35 <Joerg-Neo900> I admit it's not exactly Neo900 UG related

23:35 <Joerg-Neo900> but it's very good news to a lot of our customers, while irrelevant for some others

23:49 <fil> sre, if the news is really that Devuan is being helpful in getting Maemo ready, and if the unfounded stuff about what's supposedly mandatory in Debian had been left out, then I guess I have no problem with is, and am glad to see that Devuan is producing worthwhile results

23:52 <fil> with it, even