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<Joerg-Neo900> fil: we will rewrite that newspost, it's obviously poorly thought and causing lots of misconceptions
<Joerg-Neo900> thanks for bringing it up
<Joerg-Neo900> to start with, we shouldn't have mixed maemo-related news into the Neo900 newspost in such a way
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry
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<fil> np -- glad to get to a constructive conclusion -- sorry if I gave the appearance of being a whining git ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> you sonded more angry than whining :-)
<Joerg-Neo900> and probably that's ok
<Joerg-Neo900> we did no great job there
<Joerg-Neo900> the newspost is obviously misleading, we didn't notice since we deal with all that every day of our life
<Joerg-Neo900> so what's obvious and clear to us isn't necessarily as obvious to others
<Joerg-Neo900> to repeat: absolutely nothing will change regarding what Neo900 is and aims at
<fil> quite, I think the distinction between BSP and a full OS is lost on a lot of people (me included until now)
<Joerg-Neo900> :nod:
<fil> I interpreted the Debian GNU/Linux\nBSP bit in the spec to mean you'd be shipping Debian with enough extra glue to get it running, preferably in a few neat neo900-*.deb packages -- not quite right, eh? ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> we *might* do that, that's not decided yet
<Joerg-Neo900> Aafter all it's more work to strip down a linux distro than to ship it like downloaded
<Joerg-Neo900> however we don't include this into the promised product specs
<fil> ah -- well, if you need help with that I'd imagine there are quite a few Debianites among your orders
<Joerg-Neo900> whet we promise is a debian COMPATIBLE set of drivers, in a bare bones system to show they work
<Joerg-Neo900> what*
<Joerg-Neo900> PID1 migth well be a bash in such system ;-)
<fil> I'd have guessed busybox, but fine
<Joerg-Neo900> I personally don't like messybox, so... :-D
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* fil works on d-i, so I sympathise with that view :-)
<Joerg-Neo900> we have enough RAM and storage for proper interactive shell ;-)
<wpwrak> fil: the debiophiles shouldn't be too upset. i'd think of debian and devuan as twin brothers who also share very similar interests, behaviour, and other traits. one of them has become addicted to a horrible drug. we all hope that he'll pull through, but we're worried. does that make the other brother who make safer choices a horrible person ?
<fil> wpwrak: the problem with that is that you're using the word addicted when what you're talking about is the one popular distro that's putting effort into keeping the "drug" optional
<Joerg-Neo900> that's disputable, but *not in here*
<Joerg-Neo900> hellzbolg stays broken for me, I can't post anything
<Joerg-Neo900> how900: ^^^
<Joerg-Neo900> how900: ubolg stays broken for me, I can't post anything
<Joerg-Neo900> Sending a test message to check validity with Twitter...
<Joerg-Neo900> [ { code: 187, message: 'Status is a duplicate.' } ]
<Joerg-Neo900> I *really* wish I could post *anything* on our own website
<fil> in short, any statement that says Debian has made some radical change of direction is pretty-much bound to be wrong -- it takes forever to change things in Debian, and if it is even vaguely useful we try to let people choose themselves -- and sorry for saying the s-word, I didn't want to start another of those conversations
<Joerg-Neo900> the radical change happened during a iirc last 5 years or so
<Joerg-Neo900> but again, not in here!
<fil> actually, I didn't say the s-word -- good :-)
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<Joerg-Neo900> fil: for a first stop-gap measure, I removed the paragraph from the newspost. does this look better now to you?
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<fil> Joerg-Neo900: yeah, of course -- if you want to give kudos to Devuan you could thank them for providing resources for getting the BSP ready (possibly adding: without having to consider any systemd related issues that might have crept into recent Debian ... if you don't mind waking some trolls on both sides ;-) )
<fil> and maing it very clear that the resulting BSP is agnostic to any such issues, so it doesn't make any difference to anyone what tools you use
<Joerg-Neo900> know what? I guess I'll go for redhat ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> actually we should state the BSP as what it is: Linux (*not* even GNU)
<fil> absoulutely -- at least RH gets rid of the need to make any choices :-)
<Joerg-Neo900> actually the kernel version is the only thing that's a characterizing property of the BSP
<Joerg-Neo900> nobody could tell if a system with a linux kernel, a shell and a few shell scripts is debian, redhat or gentoo. It's simply meaningless
<fil> ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> http://wstaw.org/m/2016/11/20/plasma-desktopGA2244.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/11/20/plasma-desktopKB2244.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/11/20/plasma-desktopjf2244.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/11/20/plasma-desktopxF2244.png http://wstaw.org/m/2016/11/20/plasma-desktopzY2244.png I'm not feeling like removing all those conflict packages in the package manager to see how many times more conflicts are then generated from a simple installation of
<Joerg-Neo900> sysvinit
<Joerg-Neo900> and I bet this looks exactly identical on *all* distros
<Joerg-Neo900> except those that don't come with systemd to start with
<Joerg-Neo900> I wonder what Denial-of-Operation System would be worth for ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> rather funny that it's available for free now
<Joerg-Neo900> in arms
<Joerg-Neo900> http://paste.opensuse.org/42762674 sounds rather dishonest
<Joerg-Neo900> http://paste.opensuse.org/64118210 this however sounds almost too good to be true. Then OTOH this is a server and i'll prolly do it during next 6h, after carefully checking aunt google and my backups
<Joerg-Neo900> heck, I probably wouldn't even need udev and lsusb on that box
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<Joerg-Neo900> if that gets me rid of dang syslog spamming like http://paste.opensuse.org/1741289, it's already worthwhile
* fil runs Xmonad, so I have no idea what the heavy DEs might have done to themselves lately -- if you were pointing at issues reported at bugs.debian.org, but ignored, then I'd be _much_ more interested, but if people respond to problems by running away, then they've just removed pressure for the outcome they desire to come about, which seems a bit counter-productive to me
<Joerg-Neo900> this is a fought war, and all we can do is cope with the fallout
<fil> (as for syslog ... well, I'm a grey-bearded sysadmin, and hadn't realised quite how feeble syslogd was until I stopped having to use it, I'd have rewritten it years ago -- but like everyone else it was (barely) good enough, so I didn't bother)
<Joerg-Neo900> there been quite renowned and honored developers and system architects that vetoed the systemd way of doing things, but they got bullied out by redhat's systemd-cabal
<fil> no idea about RH
<fil> (last used it when I got my RHCX in 2001, and only for a week then)
<Joerg-Neo900> if systemd was limited to RH I wouldn't care at all
<Joerg-Neo900> but I'm not willing to report bugs to a subsystem that I absolutely don't want at all
<fil> well, if you care, and you find issues that make Debian (and I don't mean Gnome3) really depend on more that libsystemd0 then I strongly encourage you to report bugs
<Joerg-Neo900> the only bug i'm intersted in reporting and getting solved would be: fix the default
<fil> you do know what "default" means, don't you?
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, it means everybody and their braindead dog will depend on it
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<fil> I have the impression that some people think that the only way to prove a lack of actual dependency on systemd is to be able to get '0' from: dpkg -l | grep systemd | wc -l -- would you be in that camp?
<Joerg-Neo900> IroN900:~# dpkg -l | grep systemd | wc -l
<Joerg-Neo900> 0
<fil> if so, would it help to have the "are we running systemd?" function from libsystemd0 moved out into a separate library ... called libvoldermort, say (he says faceciously)?
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<Joerg-Neo900> I think devuan calls it different, apart from it that's pretty much what they do afaik
<gry> Joerg-Neo900, I sent you a private message; I hope you do not mind
<fil> having a library that lets you check that actually provides a method to avoid depending upon systemd, so it seems odd to object to people writing that code based solely on the library name
<fil> np
<fil> this conversation is not intresting to 99.999% of humanity anyway ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> honestly, why don't you /join #devuan ?
<fil> oh, a message via IRC? I don't see it it seems
<fil> lack of time for any more channels, mostly
* fil has 2 kids under 4
<fil> afk --> child
<Joerg-Neo900> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages has a list of packages that need patching to work on a systemd free system
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<redchilijerk> hi, why all the privacy with the phone when all phones, iphones, android phones, doesnt matter if its chinese brand or some silent-circle/boeing phone, they all can be turned on remotely
<redchilijerk> whats the point
<redchilijerk> ?
<Joerg-Neo900> for those who frown on this?
<redchilijerk> whats the point if the neo900 can be turned on remotely
<bencoh> redchilijerk: the point is it can't
<Joerg-Neo900> and actually "can be turned on remotely" isn't exactly correct
<bencoh> and it would be one of the very few that have control over this
<redchilijerk> so neo900 is doing this...when Boegin and PGP phones etc etc all do?
<redchilijerk> what is "it"?
<Joerg-Neo900> you can remotely stop it from powering down
<Joerg-Neo900> it = arbitrary non-hardened smartphone
<redchilijerk> its software?
<redchilijerk> or hardware
<Joerg-Neo900> no
<Joerg-Neo900> hardware
<redchilijerk> meaning someone who know EE can just switch up the pcb or what
<Joerg-Neo900> please see topic
<redchilijerk> is it cheap to do this
<redchilijerk> can I do this?
<redchilijerk> i mean explain to someone else and build one?
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry you lost me
<bencoh> can you do what?
<redchilijerk> the part where it cant be remotely turned on
<redchilijerk> im trying to say....I can go build and android phone
<redchilijerk> can I build an android phone with the knowldge you guys may share
<Joerg-Neo900> no, this requires special knowledge
<redchilijerk> on how to not do the remote turning on bullshit
<redchilijerk> fuck
<redchilijerk> why
<redchilijerk> who is hoarding the knowledge
<redchilijerk> chip fabs lol?
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, those and TLAs
<redchilijerk> whats tla mean
<Joerg-Neo900> and securiry companies
<redchilijerk> who owns all this stuff
<redchilijerk> japanese people?
<Joerg-Neo900> Three Letter agencies
<redchilijerk> ah
<bencoh> ...
<redchilijerk> cool thanks Joerg-Neo900 and bencoh
<Joerg-Neo900> yw
<Joerg-Neo900> please generally refer to our resources page
<redchilijerk> so are yall related to one of them eg. IQT?
<redchilijerk> thanks
<Joerg-Neo900> it has lots of fine stuff, particularly the talks will be interesting for you
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry, I missed to understand your IQT comment
<redchilijerk> With $500 is there a way you think
<redchilijerk> being optimistic...
<redchilijerk> to sell that feature, of the no-remote turning on
<redchilijerk> like is that something a novice android dev
<Joerg-Neo900> no
<redchilijerk> can test or do POC
<redchilijerk> or wahtever the term is
<redchilijerk> liek a presentation
<redchilijerk> $500 to put together a short vid
<Joerg-Neo900> not as long as we can't reach sales numbers like the at least smaller players on market
<bencoh> redchilijerk: this doesn't have much to do with software, to begin with
<redchilijerk> bencoh: yes hardware
<redchilijerk> regarding advocacy/marketing I meant.....is it possible to do a simple youtube vid
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm busy, sorry. Others in here will be equally competent to answer your questions, redchilijerk
<redchilijerk> demoing a android phone that can be remotely turned on and neo900
<redchilijerk> or is this reserved to guys like you....who know low level programming
<redchilijerk> making 100-200k easily
<redchilijerk> lol
<redchilijerk> Joerg-Neo900: np
<bencoh> again, this has nothing to do with programming
<redchilijerk> bencoh: ok so it would be me simply
<bencoh> be it "low level" or whatever
<redchilijerk> understanding a PCB?
<redchilijerk> like reading diagrams?
<Joerg-Neo900> well, the exploit would be needed and somebody has to write the exploit software (or buy it)
<redchilijerk> im just confused why android folk dont talk about this
<redchilijerk> ohhh
<redchilijerk> so you are saying its just a matter of someone who isnt a 9-5 slave like me
<redchilijerk> and some money to do an exploit
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<bencoh> dont talk about what? the fact that most modern phones are backdoored at a hw level?
<redchilijerk> that and how there is no desire to remdy it
<redchilijerk> remedy it...
<redchilijerk> why cant the phone be made in a way...where there is protocol to not allow backdoor
<redchilijerk> i dont know how to put into words
<bencoh> well, operators/phone manufacturers/agencies like it that way
<redchilijerk> why is it matter of software exploit
<redchilijerk> lol
<Joerg-Neo900> Sbowden+Bunnie are talking about it, pretty loudly
<bencoh> and people already entrust google/fb/whatever with their whole life anyway
<Joerg-Neo900> Snowden*
<bencoh> so I guess most just dont care ;)
<redchilijerk> are all yall european people
<redchilijerk> pretty much
<Joerg-Neo900> westerners, yes
<bencoh> and if they do care ... they're just willing to give their privacy away in exchange of a full-fledged ""smart""phone
<redchilijerk> I hate my phone
<redchilijerk> I had a firefox os phone that was cool software wise
<bencoh> I like mine (n900) ;)
<redchilijerk> damn...that would be dope
<redchilijerk> combine firefoxOS with neo900
<Joerg-Neo900> go ahead, it's easy
<redchilijerk> so yall are pretty much expert hardware/software folk
<redchilijerk> yall are dope
<redchilijerk> why would it be easy
<redchilijerk> I thougth yall use custom hardware so then its pretty much hell again
<redchilijerk> to port software
<redchilijerk> well if it runs Android then FFOS can because of kernel
<redchilijerk> did you know most TLA families are disfunctional and have traces to hard drugs and pedophelia
<Joerg-Neo900> please be aware we're selling mere hardware, just like ASUS sels motherboards for your PC. ASUS doesn't mind if you run freeBSD, kinux, or windows or OS/2 on their boards, we don't mind if you run Android/Replicant or debian/devuan or firefoxOS or Maemo or younameit on your Neo900
<redchilijerk> so how are you doing SUCh a custom project where the phone cant be remotely turned on....or I still dont get it....why didnt boeing lmao do it, or phil zimmerman PGP or CIA I guess
<redchilijerk> i thougth with such a change like that, everything gets f'd
<redchilijerk> ohh but its probably just traffic or data
<redchilijerk> not displaying stuff to screeen etc etc
<redchilijerk> ya so my dream phone would be neo900 with my theme and apps on firefox os
<Joerg-Neo900> please watch werner's *very fine* talk: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm
<redchilijerk> I shall watch it and then come back and bug yall
<redchilijerk> I wish I could code like yall
<redchilijerk> or know EE
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm EE
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm doing coding only when I need to, for a living
<redchilijerk> im going to pauce gucci mane
<redchilijerk> and put this vid on
<Joerg-Neo900> 70% of software devels frown on EE who do coding. All EE frown on 70% of software devels :-)
<redchilijerk> cool, this dude has a neat accent
<bencoh> Joerg-Neo900: huhu :)
<Joerg-Neo900> I guess that's austira+swiss+argentinian
<redchilijerk> what is the name of the concept of what I am talking about regarding my concern about remote turn on? is it knowning what amodem is and how it functions?
<Joerg-Neo900> basically yes
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<redchilijerk> am I stupid or an asshole or both, to think that neo900 is similar to linux kernel that its open but its just a matter of that nobody has millions of bucks to pay a group to fund a code audit and do an exploit, but that people who do would do that but not want to share with proles.....
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm sure bencoh can explain to you why modern smartphones use modem/APE-CPU integration and shared RAM etc for size and cost reasons, and what we do differently to avoid the threats that come with it
<redchilijerk> and IBM and MS and the other couple ex redhat, ex IBM, I doubt they give a shit
<Joerg-Neo900> but just watch the video
<redchilijerk> sorry, i paused it to write this
<redchilijerk> i will resume
<redchilijerk> ah yes cose
<redchilijerk> cost*
<Joerg-Neo900> afk
<Joerg-Neo900> o/
<Joerg-Neo900> Also see https://blog.torproject.org/blog/mission-improbable-hardening-android-security-and-privacy "Future Work: Baseband Analysis (and Isolation)"
<redchilijerk> man....
<redchilijerk> this makes me just watn to spawn a network and make somethign that uses wifi
<redchilijerk> this stuff is for elite and money people when its all custom hardware
<redchilijerk> its esoteric on purpose
<redchilijerk> this is fucked
<redchilijerk> this talk is pretty neat
<redchilijerk> talking about 2 boards part
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<bencoh> Joerg-Neo900: :)
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<Joerg-Neo900> hmmph, new comments tend to take longer to get moderator approved on older blogposts like https://blog.torproject.org/blog/mission-improbable-hardening-android-security-and-privacy
<Pali> hi! has somebody an idea how to specify in manpage it is written in UTF-8?
<Joerg-Neo900> errrr
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry
<Joerg-Neo900> I can't even recall what's the name of this converter program
<Joerg-Neo900> groff?
<Pali> yes it is troff or groff format
<Pali> no :-( already found that... that page describe how to show utf8 manpge
<Pali> not how to write it
<Pali> already tried google, but nothing usefull...
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry, no faintest clue here
<Pali> I cannot believe that there is no info about it...
<Pali> I will stay as is... manpage is in utf8 and hope groff/man commands can handle it even on different LC_* locale systems
<Joerg-Neo900> look into the mysql manpage related files, somewhere there it must be plain to see. AIUI you use UTF-8 in your input file (source) and you configure the toolchain so the result is readable
<Pali> if you have configured your terminal to be utf8 and locale also to utf8, then you have no problem
<Pali> but if you are using different locale, then some magic needs to be done (iconv or what)
<Joerg-Neo900> hmm, I think there's ni proper answer to "how to display UTF-8 chars *correctly* on non-UTF-enabled environments?"
<Pali> yes there is
<Pali> if you can convert those characters, then it will be 1:1
<Pali> and if not, then you can use some replacement character
<Pali> e.g. de-accent some
<Joerg-Neo900> hmm, that's a flaw in troff then
<Pali> conversion is done by iconv
<Joerg-Neo900> whatever
<Pali> but somewhere and somehow you need to specify in manpage, "hey, I'm written in UTF-8"
<Joerg-Neo900> or you tell troff about it, as in https://www.electrictoolbox.com/utf8-characters-linux-man-pages/
<Pali> yes, thats the other option
<Joerg-Neo900> if not, then ^^^ >>look into the mysql manpage related files, somewhere there it must be plain to see<<
<Pali> but normally when you are reading manpage, you do not tell troff encoding :-)
<Pali> already looked into mysql.1
<Pali> nothing!
<Pali> but it is plain ascii
<Pali> and both latin1, latin2, ... utf8 are backward compatible "extensions" to ascii
<Wizzup> I usually write my man pages in rst (docutils) and use that to convert to man
<Wizzup> then it's always unicode I think (sorry for not being more helpful)
<Pali> Wizzup: can you show me some of your utf8 manpage generated by docutil?
<Pali> that would be helpful!
<Pali> currently I found that manpage man7/latin2.7.gz is written in latin2 and has in first line: '\" t -*- coding: ISO-8859-2 -*-
<Pali> so maybe that string is really used for encoding
<Wizzup> hm, actually, it seems to not render unicode well, let me see how I can fix that, that should help.
<Pali> but still I'm unable to find anything about it... no idea if it is undocumented...
<Wizzup> It is not easy to find...
<Joerg-Neo900> ((has in first line)) not here
<Wizzup> my ♥ in the manpage comes up as â¥
<Joerg-Neo900> I'd think as a general rule manpages should use plain ASCII ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> for all the rest there's `info` X-D
<Wizzup> there is some unicode allowed, I think,
<Wizzup> (but I can't find it right now)
<Wizzup> g2g
<Wizzup> ah, no, that still doesn't help.
<Joerg-Neo900> [2016-11-20 Sun 23:36:39] <Joerg-Neo900> or you tell troff about it, as in https://www.electrictoolbox.com/utf8-characters-linux-man-pages/ ;-D
<Joerg-Neo900> [2016-11-20 Sun 23:28:40] <Joerg-Neo900> https://www.electrictoolbox.com/utf8-characters-linux-man-pages/ useful?
<Wizzup> ah.
<Joerg-Neo900> hehe
<Wizzup> sry. sleepy.
<Wizzup> bbl
<Joerg-Neo900> the "-*- encoding: ISO-8859-2 -*-" stuff rings a bell, still...
<Joerg-Neo900> pythin iirc does it
<Joerg-Neo900> python
<Joerg-Neo900> and emacs?
<Joerg-Neo900> vi?
<saper> it's for python
<MonkeyofDoom> vi leaves notes about tab width or such I think
<MonkeyofDoom> or vim
<Joerg-Neo900> aaah yes
<Joerg-Neo900> mixed those up
<saper> with vim it's different a bit http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Modeline_magic
<Joerg-Neo900> >>In addition, it is off by default when editing as root<< awesome
<saper> vi/nvi has no such thing
<Pali> look into 'man latin2' or 'man latin3'
<Pali> /usr/share/man/man7/latin2.7.gz
<Pali> /usr/share/man/man7/latin3.7.gz
<Pali> those really have encoding: lines
<Pali> and looks like they are written in latin2 (resp. latin3)
<Joerg-Neo900> not here
<Joerg-Neo900> I really guess it depends on which target locale they are built for
<Joerg-Neo900> after all aiui UTF-8 doesn't need any "encroding" stuff since every char is supposed to have its own encoding implicitly
<saper> are those troff manpages?
<Joerg-Neo900> so ł is obviously c582
<Joerg-Neo900> can't say I have a clue about how UTF-8 *really* supposed to work, though
<Joerg-Neo900> I _think_ each(?) char is 16 bit despite the "8" in UTF-8, and the most significant byte is the codepoint or whatever the name
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<saper> UTF-8 is one byte for 0-127, if a higher bit is set then the next byte is used. One codepoint can take few bytes if needed
<Joerg-Neo900> UTF-8 (hex)0xC5 0x82 (c582)
<saper> UTF-16 is two bytes always
<Joerg-Neo900> saper: ack, sounds in line with what I thought
<saper> it was invented by Rob Pike for the Plan 9 operating system
<Joerg-Neo900> I've actually seen 3byte UTF-8
<saper> basically to keep 7-bit ASCII stuff untouched
<Joerg-Neo900> ☕ might be one of them
<saper> my font does not display HOT BEVERAGE :)
<Joerg-Neo900> hehe
<saper> other than that APL385 is awesome
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