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<no-defun-allowed>
It appears that this function definition (rather, the documentation string) prevents C-c C-c from working correctly: https://pastebin.com/h8sHNTzf
<no-defun-allowed>
That appears to compile from (with-locked-box ...) in the documentation string wherever I C-c C-c from, which fails spectacularly.
<trittweiler>
It may be using beginning-of-defun and that works by a crude heuristic
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<trittweiler>
the answer is most likely "don't write docstrings like that", i.e. intend inner code blocks by at least 1 space
<trittweiler>
*indent
<no-defun-allowed>
Sure.
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<no-defun-allowed>
That fixes it then. Thanks.
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<beach>
no-defun-allowed: You can use the trick with #.(format nil "...") so that in the format control you can ignore indented lines.
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<p_l>
beach: well, it would be nice to appear - but that requires actually having done something for it to happen ;)
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<beach>
p_l: Usually, yes.
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<phoe>
beach: about CCL, "Instead it defines an info vector (disguised as a structure)" - CCL tends to do that a real lot. From what I have noticed, a lot of internal structures in CCL are actually tagged vectors, where the tag tells CCL what kind of a structure that is.
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<p_l>
phoe: doesn't that correspond to defining the structure to be of :type vector ?
<Posterdati>
hi
<phoe>
p_l: nope, it's a different trick that CCL uses. The resulting object still prints like a structure type and has its own distinct type.
<p_l>
phoe: AFAIK defstruct with vector type also do so
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<phoe>
p_l: structures that are :TYPE VECTOR print as vectors though, don't they?
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<phoe>
(defstruct (foo (:type vector)) a b c) (type-of (make-foo)) ;=> (SIMPLE-VECTOR 3) on SBCL
<pjb>
As it should be.
<phoe>
agreed
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<phoe>
CCL's internal structures don't behave that way though
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<p_l>
phoe: that sounds like something that is actually left to implementionation
<p_l>
*implementation
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<p_l>
pretty sure it's also the model used by ZetaLisp/LML/LMI/Symbolics, btw
<phoe>
...oh wait a second though
<p_l>
(implementation of structure with no :type)
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<phoe>
hah! I was only partially right
<montaropdf>
Hello
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<phoe>
There are things called ivectors and gvectors in CCL that are tagged like I described up above - but, amusingly, CCL's method-combination-info objects are neither of them
<montaropdf>
I have some strange configuration problem with my common lisp environement. ~/common-lisp/ is not in the asdf registry and some packages seems missing from quicklisp.
<phoe>
they are just simple vectors.
<montaropdf>
My environement is a fedora 31 and sbcl
<phoe>
montaropdf: missing, what do you mean? did you (ql:update-all-dists)?
<montaropdf>
phoe
<montaropdf>
yes
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<montaropdf>
and ql tell me my list is up to date, but dating from 2019
<montaropdf>
the same with the quicklisp client
<montaropdf>
Message from quicklisp: You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2019-12-27.
<phoe>
which packages are missing for you then?
<montaropdf>
Message from the client: The most up-to-date client, version 2020-01-04, is already installed.
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<phoe>
or rather, which systems?
<montaropdf>
phoe: com.informatimago
<montaropdf>
but maybe others
<phoe>
montaropdf: are they included in quicklisp in general?
<montaropdf>
according to the README of the repo on github it should be
<phoe>
montaropdf: quicklisp/quicklisp-projects on github is the ultimate source of information for what is included in QL.
<phoe>
since that's the repository that declares all the stuff that is included in a dist
<montaropdf>
I see a commit saying that the system has been removed.
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<montaropdf>
dated of 2016
<phoe>
that would explain it
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<montaropdf>
effectively
<phoe>
so that solves the issue of Quicklisp
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<phoe>
doesn't solve the one of ASDF registry though
<montaropdf>
effectively
<phoe>
on my machine, asdf:*central-registry* ;=> (#P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/quicklisp/")
<phoe>
maybe that's the cause - if you've installed QL, it likely is set to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
<montaropdf>
I just check now and look what I have found: #P"/home/roland/quicklisp/quicklisp/"
<montaropdf>
but yesterday it was not the case :()
<montaropdf>
Maybe calling for an update add the entry.
<montaropdf>
I will have to test that
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<montaropdf>
So, I will add ~/common-lisp/ to the registry from .sbclrc, seems the best to do.
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<Demosthenex>
can someone recommend an xml lib for outputting graphml? i don't need to parse, just output correct xml
<Shinmera>
Plump has an XML mode.
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<Demosthenex>
i thought plump was focused on parsin? i suppose it'd have a method to output somewhere too
<Shinmera>
it has a perfectly serviceable DOM and serializer.
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<Demosthenex>
ooh! plump-sexp looks right!
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<beach>
phoe: Do you know the reason for that? My guess would be for reasons of bootstrapping, but I am only guessing.
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<phoe>
beach: I do not think so. ivectors and gvectors are used galore even in the bootstrapping process. I think it's just style inconsistency and one could fix easily that someday.
* phoe
could bet about $10 on that.
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<beach>
Hmm. Maybe it was done before CLOS was part of the implementation?
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<phoe>
Large chunks of the method-combination.lisp file are at least 12 years old - we don't have any earlier history.
<phoe>
So it's possible, yes.
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<beach>
Strange stuff either way.
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<phoe>
But then wait a second
<phoe>
Method combinations are a part of CLOS
<phoe>
So it's hard for MCs to be a part of CLOS and then be there *before* CLOS
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<beach>
Yes, I just meant this style of defining vectors disguised as structures.
<phoe>
Oh, yes, that's for sure
<beach>
It looks like something you may come up with if you don't have standard classes.
<phoe>
Coral/Macintosh/Clozure Common Lisp is an old implementation and I think that's its heritage that we are looking at right now
<beach>
But it is also possible that it is a bootstrapping problem. If CLOS is "bolted on" the way it is in many Common Lisp implementations, then, at the time you need method combinations, you may not have classes yet.
<phoe>
that's true as well, since CCL has its own bootstrapping process where method combinations are actually loaded close to the end of the process
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<pjb>
/whoami
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<|Pirx|>
hi
<phoe>
heyyy
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<Demosthenex>
Shinmera: i rapidly imported a sample xml, was there a quick way to dump the sexp object of that?
<Shinmera>
plump-sexp:serialize?
<Demosthenex>
pardon, i thought that went back to text. i'm just trying to examine the innards of the objs returned
<Shinmera>
plump:serialize goes to text
<Shinmera>
you can also just inspect the returned DOM with Slime or what have you
<Demosthenex>
ok, the other module. i did read all the functions in the main doc before asking :P
<Demosthenex>
yeah, but i'm on a windoze gaming box. can't get any work done there.
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<Shinmera>
Windows 10 comes with an ssh package pre-installed, if I remember correctly. And portacle is only a download away.
<montaropdf>
pjb: hello, with regards to our discussion about my lisp db project. TBH, I am not sure to have understood what wise man tried to teach me when he says that I was doing my project backward :(
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<beach>
montaropdf: I would have helped you, but I think the entire concept of a database is fishy. Either you limit yourself to storing simple objects such as numbers and strings, in which case the entire thing seems useless, or else you allow for any Common Lisp object to be store, and then it won't be EQ to its original when you read it back, if the original even exists anymore.
<beach>
to be storeD
<p_l>
beach: seems to work for GemStone/S though
<montaropdf>
beach: A database is a concept, so it doesn't means the storage is a binary file ;)
<beach>
p_l: They must be doing some magic.
<beach>
montaropdf: OK, so it if is all in main memory, then that's much better.
<p_l>
beach: from my understanding, the database part is very low component of the overall image
<p_l>
so their locatives are EQ-comparable
<p_l>
instead of being direct pointers
<beach>
p_l: If it is universal persistence, then that is exactly what I am advocating, as you might know.
<p_l>
beach: it's more complex, because GemStone also had to be pragmatic about it
<p_l>
so transactions, ways to recover, etc.
<beach>
I suspect my brain is to small to understand it.
<p_l>
it's not the size of the brain, it's the point of view
<p_l>
There's beautiful conceptual simplicity to universal persistence
<p_l>
Though I have to admit I have issues imagining navigating such a system
<p_l>
too alien to what I'm used to
<montaropdf>
What is universal persistence?
<beach>
p_l: I don't see why. You could always erase part of it when you start up, pretending that there is volatile memory.
<montaropdf>
If I may ask
<p_l>
OTOH, I professionally deal with things like "the machine is gone - how I can ensure continuity"
<beach>
montaropdf: It means that there is no distinction between the stuff you can do with RAM and the stuff you can do with a disk. It all behaves as if you had random access memory that is persistent as the disk is.
<beach>
montaropdf: Multics had that 50 years ago, and Unix made many generations of developers forget about it.
<p_l>
not just multics, but also the growing divide between speeds of different storages
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<beach>
p_l: You mean that "the growing divide between speeds of different storages" also had it 50 years ago?
<beach>
I'm lost.
<montaropdf>
However, the week-end passes by, so I had time to think about it and to test some cases. I am currently thinking more and more about getting away from my, traditional, table approach to store data, to using sexp trees. I am also targeting small volumes of data, nothing the NSA would be bothered to search in ;)
<Nilby>
Thankfully true universal persistence is there without any effort, now to control it nicely though you need a redesign from processors & L1 cache to offsite backups.
<p_l>
beach: I see it often enough in how it impacts code that deals with just CPU - the multiple levels of caches, how much latency there is. Also how swap became much bigger impact compared to how it used to be, as the difference in speeds between disk storage and memory gone like crazy, not just the latency
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<Demosthenex>
beach: as/400 does that too
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<beach>
So I hear, yes.
<Nilby>
In the old days when I went to open a file, sometimes it would text the "operator" to load a tape. If the operator was me, the system would deadlock.
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<beach>
Heh.
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<pjb>
Then, databases have to deal with KEYS to identify external objects and internalize. For symbols, the key is the package name and the symbol name. But for random CLOS objects, it's more complicated: the programmer must specify the keys… Even for cons cells, or lists, you start to have problems…
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<akhetopnu>
Hello. Has anyone tried using clack + TLS? I don't see any info in the docs clack's docs about it
<akhetopnu>
is the assumed setup reverse proxy tunneling requests/websocket connections to clack and clack just serving everything without encryption?
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<Shinmera>
that's typically a good idea for production anyway.
<Shinmera>
clack supports fcgi too, for a low overhead coupling to your frontend server.
<akhetopnu>
I'm tinkering with clack + hunchentoot right now and I know hunchentoot supports SSL (not sure if they mean literally SSL or maybe TLS too), it's just that I'm not sure if clack can pass through the TLS certificate paths for example
<akhetopnu>
I would like to get encryption all the way from the browser to my server, however if that's not possible then I guess I'll have to settle down for a reverse proxy
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<Shinmera>
often the reverse proxy is on the same machine as your lisp instance, so it doesn't matter.
<Shinmera>
hunchentoot supports ssl via cl+ssl (aka openssl)
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<Shinmera>
dunno how passing certs work, I haven't used clack myself.
<akhetopnu>
i'm trying to setup a (mainly) websocket server (+ http(s) wouldnt hurt to be honest) and clack + hunchentoot seems to be the most 'reliable' way
<akhetopnu>
have you used other common lisp webserver with websockets by any chance?
<Shinmera>
you can setup nginx to do the https websocket handshake and then delegate to your non-https websocket server.
<Shinmera>
I have only used hunchensocket for ws stuff. It was pretty straightforward.