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* asarch
whispers: "The Simpsons, season 4, chapter #21. Shhhhh..."
<asarch>
D'oh! Wrong post. Sorry, sorry
<asarch>
Is there any way to make an overflow in a REPL?
<asarch>
I mean, to "eat" all the memory available?
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<no-defun-allowed>
(loop collect (list))
<beach>
(loop collect 0) even simpler
<Shinmera>
(make-array 1000000000000)
<asarch>
Can you prevent to fall in that situation?
<beach>
asarch: Not unless you know how to solve the halting problem.
<asarch>
Oh :-(
<beach>
asarch: In other words, it is an undecidable problem.
<Shinmera>
Even if you could determine the loop, it's not clear you could determine how to mitigate the failure.
<beach>
asarch: Do you know about Turing completeness?
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<asarch>
No, I don't
<beach>
That's fundamental knowledge when it comes to programming languages and their power.
<asarch>
Is it related to the "Turing Test"?
<beach>
No.
<beach>
I suggest you read up on "language theory".
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<asarch>
I México we usually know about it when we take classes about compilers (in some universities)
<asarch>
Yacc and Bison as far I know
<asarch>
I don't know exactly which one of them is inspired in Lisp
<asarch>
...as far I know
<no-defun-allowed>
Those are unrelated to Turing completeness, and I don't think most Lisp users use either parser or lexer generators.
<beach>
Language theory is a branch of theoretical computer science.
<asarch>
Any good book for a dummy like me?
<asarch>
In the "The Land of Lisp" book they say it is very "dangerous" to leave the REPL exposed to the real world because someone could type malicious code
<beach>
Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation. By Hopcroft, Motwani, and Ullman.
<beach>
Apparently available as a PDF.
<asarch>
That's great!
<beach>
Definitely.
<asarch>
I just was wondering about those malicious code. I guess someone could play with (with-open-file) and try to do some zero division operations, I guess
<beach>
It discusses the three major language processors, namely finite automata, pushdown automata, and Turning machines. And it discusses the associated language categories for those processors.
<beach>
asarch: Unless you want to spend your software career doing silly stuff like designing web pages, you need to know some theory.
<asarch>
"Turing" or "Turning"?
<beach>
Alan Turing.
<beach>
Sorry.
<asarch>
Thank you
<asarch>
I'll get the book
<pjb>
asarch: it's just like any shell.
<pjb>
asarch: don't leave your terminal without locking it.
<pjb>
and remember to (lock-repl) before going to fetch a coffee…
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<asarch>
Nice!
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* no-defun-allowed
C-c C-cs pjb
<asarch>
One stupid question: that book, is it related to the Prolog programming language?
<asarch>
When I was learning PostgreSQL and the relationships, a fellow from #NetBSD told I should learn Prolog or Lisp in order to "get the most" of the SQL design
<beach>
asarch: The book I showed you? Sure, it is related to every programming language (or nearly so).
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<no-defun-allowed>
I don't know if NetBSD weenies are going to necessarily be good sources on what paradigms relate to what; but Prolog is probably closer to SQL.
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<ebrasca>
Hi
<beach>
Hello ebrasca.
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<ebrasca>
How do debug when someting don't like to load in asdf?
<ebrasca>
Recently I get 'System "next/ring" not found' when loading :next .
<ebrasca>
next/ring is defined in .asd file
<ebrasca>
And it loaded fine before some update.
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<ebrasca>
beach: How are you doing?
<beach>
Working on SICL code generation. There are some IR instructions that are non-trivial to turn into final code, because they modify the dynamic environment and the stack. But once I am done with those, code generation should be complete. I then need to figure out how to include the garbage collector and stuff like that in the final executable.
<beach>
ebrasca: Sorry you are having problems. Kind of hard to debug with the information you are able to provide.
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<ebrasca>
beach: I don't know how to seach more info and I like to start/hack next browser.
<beach>
I understand, but I don't know how to help you.
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<pjb>
ebrasca: you'd have to know asdf. You can learn asdf by exploring the debugging stack frames? (handler-bind ((error #'invoke-debugger)) (asdf:load-system :next))
<pjb>
ebrasca: an alternative is to 1- read asdf documentation. 2- read asdf sources.
<Shinmera>
or actually even just (legit:current-commit (asdf:system-source-directory :legit))
<phoe>
Shinmera: woah
<phoe>
do you really have a library for everything
<Shinmera>
Unfortunately not
<eta>
(ext:increase-popularity-of :cl)
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<phoe>
Is there any trivial-* system for creating thread-safe hash tables?
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<phoe>
Or should I use bt:with-lock-held for cross-implementation support?
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<aeth>
it would be nice to see more custom hash tables...
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<White_Flame>
do enough implementations have thread-safe hash tables to warrant a trivial-* lib?
<Bike>
trivial-garbage has weak hash tables
<Bike>
er
<Bike>
that was a silly thing to say
<White_Flame>
phoe: beyond a simple with-lock-held, ideally a threadsafe hashtable would allow simultaneous readers as long as there's no writer
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<pjb>
Honestly, I never needed thread safe hash-tables. I need thread safe *my-own-data-structure* or something. I need mailboxes, monitors, stuff like that…
<pjb>
actors
<phoe>
White_Flame: seems like SBCL, CCL, ECL, and LW have these
<phoe>
don't know about others
<phoe>
Bike: I need strong tables tho
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<pjb>
arrays are equal only if they are eq.
<pjb>
(unless they're strings or bit-vectors in which case they're compared element-by-element with eql).
<phoe>
I kind of wonder what would work better - bignums with eql or vectors with equalp.
<pjb>
define better.
<phoe>
that's the hard part
<pjb>
depends on the hash function used by the implementation.
<phoe>
right - let me benchmark that, then
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<no-defun-allowed>
Is it standard to be able to write (declare ((complex-type-specifier ...) variables ...)), or do I have to write (declare (type (complex-type-specifier ...) variables ...))?
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<phoe>
<insert obligatory comment about notes not being normative>
<no-defun-allowed>
Last time I checked, ABCL did not accept the former, because the declaration was not a symbol.
<no-defun-allowed>
Right, thanks phoe.
<phoe>
but, yeah, the top of the page mentions the same thing.
<phoe>
then that's an ABCL conformance bug
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<no-defun-allowed>
Right then.
<phoe>
as an additional exercise in code that no sane person would write, you could check (defun foo (x) (declare (#.(find-class 'integer) x)) (+ x x))
<phoe>
class objects are valid type specifiers after all!