<phoe>
madrik: what kinds of features do you need from a testing framework?
<phoe>
if you want your test framework to fit on a single page, use 1AM
<phoe>
if you want your test framework to fit in a single line, use CL:ASSERT
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<phoe>
if you want some actual management for your tests and test objects, use fiveam or parachute
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<phoe>
if you want to be able to run your tests when when some invariants change, use proctor
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<phoe>
if you want to upset #lisp, use your own hand-rolled test framework that you then upload to Quicklisp
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<madrik>
Well, my present uses are very simple. Typically, a function is followed by a number of tests.
<phoe>
parachute works for me
<madrik>
I can run these either by name, one by one, or I can call DO-TESTS (from RT).
<madrik>
Right now, I'm mildly annoyed that if I load several packages with defined tests, I may have missed how to selectively run tests for a given package; every test in each package runs.
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<phoe>
test suites are doable with parachute and fiveam
<phoe>
so you can only run a subset of all tests ever defined
<madrik>
phoe: I'll take a look at fiveam.
* jackdaniel
is pleasently surprised that there is lorem-ipsum for common lisp available, thanks phoe
* phoe
bows
<phoe>
I still can't get over the fact that I didn't listen to someone who wanted me to name that system lorem-lispum instead
<phoe>
but, I guess discoverability is better with lorem ipsum
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<madrik>
White_Flame: Thanks for the link. I didn't know there were so many on offer.
<phoe>
madrik: the worrying thing is that this number tends to grow
<madrik>
Does anyone have a standout favorite?
<White_Flame>
the wiki really needs to rank things, but that's opinionated and requires updating
<phoe>
parachute fan here
<Shinmera>
madrik: I'm biased, since I wrote Parachute
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<madrik>
Shinmera: What features recommend Parachute?
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<madrik>
I checked my Debian system for available packages. I see FiveAM and Franz's ptester besides MIT's RT.
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<madrik>
Not that getting extra-Debian packages is an issue.
<Shinmera>
Most people seem to choose their framework based on whatever surface syntax they prefer. Parachute was made with the intention of being able to usurp all others by providing an extensible protocol.
<Shinmera>
So it provides 'compatibility layers' that emulate the surface syntax of other frameworks, for instance.
<madrik>
Shinmera: I suppose I don't have to ask whether Parachute is self-testing.
<Shinmera>
it does not have a test suite to test itself, much to my great shame.
<Shinmera>
I want it to have one, but lack the time at this, uh, time.
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<White_Flame>
how would you know if your tests work?
<Shinmera>
when it says that they pass of course :)
<White_Flame>
I mean, how would you know if your tests for your testing suite are bug free? :)
<White_Flame>
#1=(turtles . #1#)
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<Shinmera>
that's the great question for all tests isn't it
<scymtym>
fiveam has a simple but very useful quickcheck-like system for random testing of properties which seems to be overlooked a lot
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<phoe>
madrik: *DON'T* use packages from apt. Uninstall everything from there and use quicklisp exclusively.
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<phoe>
apt and QL tend not to work well together.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yep, that. Debian tends to provide quite old software, too.
<phoe>
The only thing you can use from apt is implementations, like sbcl.
<phoe>
The rest isn't worth the heisenbugs.
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<jackdaniel>
another pleasent surprise: closure seems to more or less work with slight modifications on current McCLIM
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<LdBeth>
I suppose it should work on Genera Lisp Machine?
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<jackdaniel>
I would be surprised if it had worked without some modifications
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<madrik>
phoe: I have not used quicklisp. From my reading, it is a package manager for Common Lisp, isn't it?
<jackdaniel>
packages in common lisp have different meaning, but in a common "unixy" jargon -- yes, it is
<madrik>
I mostly use the Apt repositories (and Debian) as a fire-and-forget setup.
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<madrik>
jackdaniel: Indeed.
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<madrik>
Perhaps my use is uncommon, if not weird, but I don't use the Emacs package manager either. A while ago, I tried to get Magit from MELPA, but the dependencies weren't properly managed. So I just reverted to Apt.
<Shinmera>
well you will get burnt if you try to use apt for lisp stuff.
<Shinmera>
you're also missing out on about 99% of all libraries.
<madrik>
scymtym: What is the 'quickcheck-like system for random testing of properties' about? Could you please expand?
<madrik>
Shinmera: I understand that.
<madrik>
I suppose I could say that my position is to have a provisional, stable base to reach out from.
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<madrik>
This position has not been fortified against objections.
<madrik>
On a related topic, it appears that a substantial portion of Unix-like Lisp users run Debian-based systems, including Ubuntu. Are the Red Hat and Suse families less conducive to Lisp hacking? Or do more commercial outfits prefer them?
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<madrik>
E.g. I notice few people saying they run Fedora.
<Odin->
I believe that's reflective of the overall population.
<phoe>
madrik: please start using quicklisp instead. apt sources are often outdated and are not widely supported.
<phoe>
Also, I don't think other linuxes are less friendly for Lisp. Implementations run anywhere, Quicklisp runs everywhere. Debian and its derivs are simply popular.
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<madrik>
phoe: Hmm. I will look at quicklisp.
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<Cymew>
Canonical/Ubuntu has made an effort to conquer the desktop, that's probably why it's so common.
<Cymew>
I use Fedora as I work maily within the RH ecosystem.
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<edgar-rft>
i think Ubuntu / Suse / Fedora are heavily GUI desktop oriented Linux distos while the very first thing a progammer does on a GUI desktop is opening a shell window :-) I myself am using Debian because it's dead easy to reduce the GUI stuff to the minimum I need for working with aufio / video/ images and all the rest I do either in Emacs or in a shell window.
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<Xach>
phoe: sorry i missed it
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<beach>
jackdaniel: That's great news about Closure.
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<lf94>
Hey guys, just diving into the curiousity that is lisp once again like everyone does. Question: is there any lisp that has implemented a type system in itself?
<lf94>
Secondly: is there a type system where you can define the most basic of structures? Like integers and floating point?
<lf94>
For this I was thinking using regular expressions could work well, but no, there are some limitations. Like defining the order of integers...
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<shidima>
Any one who has worked with hunchentoot here?
<Bike>
lf94: i'm not sure what exactly you mean, but (a) this channel is about common lisp specifically, and (b) it has a standard type system.
<shidima>
Well, its a common lisp library right?
<shidima>
ah, nvm.
<Bike>
i wasn't talking to you. but yes i'm sure people are around who have used with hunchentoot. i've only barely worked with it and probably can't help you, sorry.
<shidima>
yeah, sorry. Was a bit presumptuous from me :)
<shidima>
*off
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<Shinmera>
just state your problem. it's annoying to have to wait to see whether one could help or not. people with or without hunchentoot experience may or may not be able to help you.
<shidima>
I'm trying to make define a handler for the base uri / , but it keeps giving me the default hunchentoot page.
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<Shinmera>
if you want to simply catch all requests ever, you should define an acceptor instead.
<shidima>
I want to run something like a home page on / and a contacts page on /contact
<Shinmera>
I see. How are you defining your handler?
<shidima>
(define-easy-handler (home :uri "/") ()
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<Shinmera>
just doing that with a string for return and starting hunchentoot does give me the correct string page.
<Shinmera>
So you must be doing something else wrong.
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<shidima>
Ok, ill look into it some more than. Thanks for confirming the code should work tho.
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<shidima>
yes (define-easy-handler (home :uri "/") () "Hello World!") does work :|
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<pfdietz>
Is there an existing library for "self specializing methods"? These would be methods that, when given parameters in a particular set of classes, would produce a specialized version of themselves for those classes.
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<lf94>
I'm looking around the Internet but can't find much on the subject: how's memory usage in lisp vs other compiled languages?
<lf94>
Pretty good? Decent?
<pfdietz>
It can depend on the garbage collector. Copying collectors, for example, might copy between two large spaces, which might double the memory footprint. But all modern languages with GC face this issue.
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<beach>
lf94: Wow, several problems here.
<beach>
lf94: First, memory use depends on the implementation, not the language.
<pfdietz>
A very old concern about Common Lisp was that all the standard parts of it took up a lot of space. But now that footprint is quite small, comparatively.
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<lf94>
beach I think it can very much depend on the language.
<beach>
lf94: Second, there is no such thing as a compiled language. Whether a compiler or an interpreter is used, is a function of the implementation, not the language.
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<pfdietz>
(and the distinction continues to blur)
<lf94>
...come on
<beach>
lf94: It very much depends on the strategy of garbage collection used by the implementation.
<lf94>
I guess I'm looking for "eager" garbage collectors
<jackdaniel>
lf94: these points are important in Common Lisp case, because there is five or more actively maintained implementations with very different traits
<jackdaniel>
(and I'm talking only about free software, there are also commercial vendors)
<beach>
lf94: Third, you may want to study the works of Jim Newton and Didier Verna. They have type descriptors for Common Lisp that work like regular expressions on lists.
<lf94>
Cool :)
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<beach>
lf94: What is an "eager" garbage collector?
<lf94>
beach one that doesn't collect garbage periodically but as soon as it can
<jmercouris>
what's the difference between periodically and as soon as it can?
<jackdaniel>
what is "as soon as it can"? after each assign operation?
<lf94>
sure
<lf94>
or after each function end
<jmercouris>
after each function call?
<jmercouris>
wow, that's expensive
<beach>
lf94: Such a thing does not exist, unless you mean reference counting, which is not used by any Common Lisp implementation that I know of, and for good reasons.
<lf94>
expensive for time; but keeps memory down no?
<jmercouris>
keep memory down? then don't allocate things
<beach>
lf94: And doesn't work for cyclic structures.
<jackdaniel>
lf94: is there a particular memory constraint you have in mind?
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<jmercouris>
just use memory efficient structures, and only allocate what you need
<lf94>
No no, I'm just super on the edge about using lisp
<Shinmera>
shidima: are you perhaps not returning anything from the function? I believe returning NIL will cause hunchentoot to skip the dispatch.
<jackdaniel>
usual thing to do is to preallocate heap and work from there
<lf94>
I guess lisp is smart about using the stack?
<jmercouris>
if this is the deciding factor about whether you will choose lisp or not, save everyone's time and just learn rust
<lf94>
"lisp is smart"
<lf94>
I mean
<lf94>
It must be a common thing to do, as a lisper?
<jackdaniel>
if something may be allocated on the stack, it is very possible that optimizing implementations would do that
<lf94>
>should be common thing in any lang
<lf94>
I'm not sure how else to express myself.
<jackdaniel>
stack is used extensively in common lisp implementations I'm aware of
<lf94>
jmercouris: I know rust. X)
<jmercouris>
OK, then no problem, just use that
<lf94>
jmercouris: My pull to lisp is its simplicity
<jmercouris>
then don't ask questions that would greatly complicate your program!
<lf94>
X)
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<jackdaniel>
Common Lisp is not simple
<jackdaniel>
it is easy to use
<lf94>
How big is Common Lisp interpreter ?
<jackdaniel>
its syntax is simple if we put aside reader macros
<jmercouris>
how big is a pizza?
<jackdaniel>
lf94: it is, more or less, 120 big
<lf94>
jmercouris: a small, medium, large?
<jmercouris>
the question is meaningless as there is no single implementation
<lf94>
:)
<beach>
lf94: You may want to look at the GC literature. There are some formulas that relate memory overhead and GC frequency for different types of GC techniques.
<lf94>
Sounds like a plan :)
<jmercouris>
a way to list slot accessors ffor an object?
<beach>
lf94: I recommend "The Garbage Collection Handbook", by Jones.
<lf94>
My fear is GC is overkill - I only hear about "sweep-mark" GC all the time for embedded systems
<lf94>
My knowledge of GC is fragmented as hell.
<jmercouris>
why do you care so much if you know nothing about GC?
<jmercouris>
why does this even matter?
<lf94>
I don't know /nothing/
<jmercouris>
either learn Lisp or don't, questions about performance characteristics aren't going to be the silver bullet to draw you to it
<lf94>
It's fragmented, and I'm hoping talking a bit here will fill some more holes around my concerns :P
<lf94>
Yes, you are right.
<lf94>
I need to do my own experiments...I am being lazily, unrightfully so.
<lf94>
s/lazily/lazy/
<jmercouris>
experience it, and decide if you want to learn it
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<jmercouris>
reminds me of the guy who "knew" some Perl and wanted to see the equivalent in Lisp and _death wrote a funny little program :-)
<beach>
lf94: If you don't appreciate the superior performance in terms of execution time of automatic memory management in the form of a tracing garbage collector compared to that of reference counting or manual memory management, I think you should stay away from implementations that use tracing garbage collectors.
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<jmercouris>
must I use MOP to figure out accessors?
<beach>
lf94: There is always a trade-off between memory use and execution time. If you are that short of memory and don't care about execution time, garbage collection is not for you.
<lf94>
So moving away from memory: are there any type systems written in lisp, and then used in a lisp?
<beach>
jmercouris: Probably, yes.
<jmercouris>
I was hoping for alexandria:list-slot-accessors :-D
<lf94>
beach but what about the case of say, picolisp?
<beach>
jmercouris: What is wrong with closer-mop:...?
<jmercouris>
nothing
<lf94>
beach: picolisp must be memorized for memory?
<beach>
lf94: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<lf94>
memorized -> optimized, damn hands
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<lf94>
Ok, ok.
<jmercouris>
Picolisp makes some people in this channel upset :-D
<beach>
lf94: As far as I know, picolisp is not an implementation of Common Lisp.
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<lf94>
Where's an appropriate place to talk about any lisp
<lf94>
X)
<jmercouris>
reddit.com/r/lisp
<beach>
lf94: You can try ##lisp, but you should know that there is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp".
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<lf94>
That I know
<beach>
lf94: Where as "Common Lisp" has a very clear definition in the form of a standard.
<lf94>
Does CL support some sort of type system?
<beach>
It has a very powerful type system and the simplest one possible too.
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<beach>
lf94: Seriously, read the works of Jim Newton and Didier Verna. They will tell you everything you need to know about type systems relative to Common Lisp.
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<beach>
jmercouris: What was it that you wanted to know again?
<beach>
What generic functions have some method specializing on some class?
<jmercouris>
kind of
<jmercouris>
I have an object
<jmercouris>
and I want to know what slots it has and their accessors
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<pjb>
lf94: and for the question of the language letting you define the basic types such as integer and floating point numbers, while Smalltalk let you do such a thing theorically, in practice, the compiler will do magic on them so it won't be easy anyways. Similarly, in lisp and CL you can go the metalinguistic way to do it. But your definitions won't take over the system one unless you recompile your implementation.
<Bike>
if you're familiar with C++, it's more like namespacing than overloading
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<jasom>
GF dispatch is more akin to overloading, but it's dynamic dispatch rather than static dispatch.
<lf94>
pjb: ohhh, so the name: part is required
<lf94>
my bad
<Bike>
it can be elided sometimes, but if you want to use both in the same area of code at least one will need to be qualified
<jasom>
lf94: for each package you can determine which symbol will resolve to a given name; so you could import color:+ but cl:* and then (+ x y) would use color:+ and (* x y) would use cl:*
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<lf94>
what if you import two name:+ ?
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<lf94>
ah
<lf94>
as Bike said
<jasom>
lf94: you get an error
<jasom>
or a warning or something
* jasom
doesn't remember how severe it is.
<Bike>
an error, pretty sure
<jasom>
I looked it up. It's an error, but there is also shadowing-import which will not throw an error.
<Bike>
well, either way, at the end only one is available
<jasom>
right
<beach>
jasom: Errors are not "thrown" in Common Lisp. They are "signaled".
<beach>
jasom: The function THROW does something entirely different.
<jasom>
beach: mea culpa
<jasom>
I looked it up. It's an error, but there is also shadowing-import which will not signal an error.
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<_death>
you can of course define your own kitchensink:+ that dispatches to the appropriate +
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<PuercoPope>
What is the easiest way to evaluate the initform of a slot if I don't want to instantiate an instance of the class? I can get the form from the slot's initform slot but I'd like not avoid evaling it
<scymtym>
PuercoPope: would this work: (defclass foo () ((%x :initform (random 10)))) (funcall (c2mop:slot-definition-initfunction (first (c2mop:class-slots (c2mop:ensure-finalized (find-class 'foo)))))) ?
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<PuercoPope>
scymtym: yeah, thanks
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<pjb>
PuercoPope: or, you could do it in pure CL (not using the MOP), like this: (defun x-initform () (random 10)) (defclass foo () ((%x :initform (x-initform)))) (x-initform)
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<aeth>
Definitely go with pjb's way. More people can read it.
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<PuercoPope>
I won't work for what I'm trying to do. The initform is a constructor, (rgb r g b), so I can't reuse a function. The jury is still out wether using the mop is a good idea though.
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<pjb>
PuercoPope: and were do the r g and b variable come from?
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<verisimilitude>
I'm here to share a style document I've written for Common Lisp programmers:
<verisimilitude>
I've already read that one, I recall, although it's been too long for me to recall my particular criticisms thereof.
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<_death>
verisimilitude: likely the most offensive is disregard of special variables naming convention.. there's also usage recommendations for when/unless/and/or/#./##/comments/&aux/loop-keywords
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<verisimilitude>
I'm still amused with the dislike of &AUX; it's part of LAMBDA, such a critical part of the language, and yet many don't seem to learn of it.
<z147>
verisimilitude, I'd suggest simplifying the language if You're going for an international audience. Non-natives won't necessarily understand "infeasible" but won't have a problem with "less practical" or "not practical".
<_death>
verisimilitude: the dislike is not due to ignorance of it.. likely it's due to the fact that the lambda list is not considered the right place for internal bindings
<jackdaniel>
I think that you underestimate non-native readers
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<jackdaniel>
z147: ^
<verisimilitude>
I appreciate your thoughts, z147, but I'm unwilling to simplify my English for those who merely may not know the language well.
<verisimilitude>
Words exist for a reason and I find it best to use them where appropriate; I don't believe I've used any particularly obscure words therein.
<z147>
jackdaniel, I prefer to check against word-frequency lists.
<_death>
z147: basic english is cool :)
<verisimilitude>
Fret not, z147, I'd like to eventually learn Esperanto and translate some of my work.
<jackdaniel>
that said language in the post sounds unnatural to me (but intelligible)
<z147>
_death, it's called Core English nowadays :)
<z147>
The manuals and edu. materials I've participated in producing have all been done with a core vocabulary in mind
<jackdaniel>
also, regarding post, it is more a "I like this and this" than a style guide
<verisimilitude>
It documents my style, as I note in the first paragraph, yes.
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<verisimilitude>
One could argue many style guides are like this and that I'm more honest about it, say.
<jackdaniel>
style is not consistent: at one point you write "I do something" in another you write "something is preferable" -- by whom then?
<verisimilitude>
I don't see the inconsistency there.
<verisimilitude>
It's a style document, wherein I list how I write Common Lisp and give other preferences, along with other advice.
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<jackdaniel>
back to the first concern, maybe some people are less onest, but they put more work to provide compelling argumentation why something is better
<jackdaniel>
honest*
<verisimilitude>
I've seen few style guides which bother making compelling arguments. I don't feel the need to; they're my opinions and what I use.
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<jackdaniel>
good for you then. either way, that's my feedback you've asked for ,)
<verisimilitude>
You've not given feedback on the actual style, jackdaniel.
<jackdaniel>
I've given feedback on the actual guide, but if you do not appreciate it then it's up to you.
<jackdaniel>
as of actual style, it touches very few style concerns so there is not much to comment either. and since there is no argument in favour, then it is hard to argue with it; I believe it is in line with your taste (so I won't argue with that ;)
<verisimilitude>
I appreciate your thoughts, jackdaniel.
<verisimilitude>
Perhaps I should ask how it differs from your preferred style.
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<jmercouris>
anyone know how to handle errors in cl-cffi-gtk?