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<onion>
in slime, how do i jump to source location on error ?
<onion>
sbcl isnt giving line numbers or anything
<didi>
onion: v
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<pillton>
You can press M-. on each row in the back trace as well.
<onion>
oh! ty =)
<pillton>
Oh. n and p and v all work together.
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<jeosol_>
is anyone running a web application and could show me their setup. Essentially, settings behind nginx, etc. My eventual is plan is to move to AWS where I have an instance with SBCL but I have not done much.
<onion>
all i know is hunchentoot and cl-who '
<jeosol_>
I have a bias for production web application and I want to start understanding what is involved so set this up.
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<jeosol_>
@onion, thanks. I use those hunchentoot and cl-who
<jeosol_>
but my question is around configuration and deployment, e.g., on AWS. I am able to run simple problems on my machine but want to start looking in the area of deployment.
<onion>
parenscript is also nice. i have only looked at erlang and haskell for servers before cl
<onion>
if its an sbcl image, you can connect emacs or other dev ide to it and develop while its up
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<rme>
learningtouch.com is a CL-backed web site. It's hunchentoot running behind an Apache reverse proxy.
<jeosol_>
@rme, that sounds like something I will be interested in.
<rme>
If I was setting it up today, I might use ngnix, but there were already other Apache-hosted sites on the same machine.
<jeosol_>
my application runs in emacs/slime
<jeosol_>
why nginx? that would be better because I use that for my simple example, but have problems adding hunchentoot as proxy. I have only been able to get hunchentoot to work with apache2 in the past.
<rme>
that just seems to be what people lean towards using these days.
<jeosol_>
if you recommend, nginx, better then. I will just find a setup with hunchentoot as reverse proxy.
<jeosol_>
ok, thanks for that info @rme
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<rme>
I am not recommending it; I have never used it.
<jeosol_>
I saw somewhere that it is lighter relatively
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<rme>
Apache was easy for me to set up. Ensure mod_proxy is loaded, and then two lines in the config: "ProxyPass / http://127.0.0.1:9999/" and "ProxyPassReverse / http://127.0.0.1:9999/" and I was all set.
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<jeosol_>
same for me too, apache was easy to set up.
<jeosol_>
do you add that line just in the config or using some special syntax
<jeosol_>
can you share a sample config or sth
<rme>
Then there's a startup script (run from rc.local or something) that runs the ccl in a tmux session and then loads a little lisp file that configures and starts hunchentoot.
<rme>
Those config lines are really all there is.
<jeosol_>
for now, I want to test it on my local pc
<jeosol_>
really?
<jeosol_>
then for your example, hunchentoot is running on port 9999
<jeosol_>
?
<rme>
right
<jeosol_>
ok doki
<jeosol_>
i guess I have to figure loading mod_proxy in config file, will check web
<rme>
on debian/ubuntu it's "a2enmod proxy" or something like that
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<jeosol_>
@rme, it's the same command in OpenSuse
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<sukaeto>
jeosol_: unfortunately, I can't show any of the code, but I maintain a Caveman2 application running behind nginx: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman
<sukaeto>
in production, we spawn of some number (dependent on the number of CPUs on the host) of FastCGI workers, each in its own docker container
<sukaeto>
and have nginx round robin to them
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<jeosol_>
@sukaeto, that would be nice, I think I can learn a lot from your setup
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<jeosol_>
@sukaeto, can i have a look at the nginx setup, even it is dumbed down or something
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<jeosol_>
those running CL web applications, what do you framework do you use? Hunchentoot (raw), Weblocks, Caveman, ...?
<jeosol_>
Thanks @onion, I am assuming these are battle tested and can be used for serious production app?
<jeosol_>
I am thinking of a framework/library to settle on.
<beach>
jeosol_: I recommend you check with Shinmera. He is probably not awake yet, though.
<jeosol_>
I have a back end application and want to develop the front end part, also using React (recommended by some frontend guy, not an expert in this space)
<onion>
i think woo might be, i will be choosing that myself, ive seen it mentioned today or yesterday in some project
<jeosol_>
@beach, you mean his Radiance library
<jeosol_>
I did give a try in the past and it's the one I invested the most time when I was trying things out.
<onion>
for front end i will be using Parenscript myself. dont need react or anything, just canvas or GL here.
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<onion>
and text
<beach>
No, I mean, check with Shinmera whether your potential choices are "battle tested, etc".
<jeosol_>
I would like a setup that people are using in production
<jeosol_>
Oh I see.
<jeosol_>
michaeljforter says he runs CL apps in production but I sent him a message on Reddit a while ago to see his setup but got nothing. I assume he was busy and forgot
<jeosol_>
*michaeljforster I think?
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<stylewarning>
jeosol_: we run hunchentoot in production
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<stylewarning>
but we also don’t really run a “web app”, more just a web api
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<didi>
Hehe. I'm reading CLTL2 and this came to mind: (my-post-defined-fn (progn (defun my-post-defined-fn (x) x) 42)) => 42
<didi>
So SBCL evals the arguments before looking for the function.
<loke>
didi: I'd expect SBCL to give you a compilation warnings there.
<didi>
loke: Nope.
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<didi>
This is fun.
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<shka_>
didi: it will give you warning but then, it is just warning
<didi>
shka_: It didn't here.
<shka_>
hmmm
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<shka_>
do you think guys that BT will eventually get atomics?
<beach>
British Telecom?
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<shka_>
bordeaux-threads
<shka_>
obviously
<shka_>
and you know it
<shka_>
and god help us if British Telecom starts using anything atomic
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<beach>
It can't evaluate the argument before looking for the function, because then it would not know whether it IS a function, and hence not know whether the argument should be evaluated.
<didi>
beach: IIUC, it can, because if it is not a special form nor a macro, it assumes it is a function.
<didi>
Well, according my reading of CLTL2.
<beach>
right.
<beach>
But it must look for the function to find that out.
<didi>
beach: I think it just assumes it is, evaluates the arguments, then try to find the function. CLTL2 says this is unspecified.
<beach>
didi: To find out that it is not a macro, it must query the environment with the function name. Which is what I mean by "look for the function".
<didi>
beach: Well, it can find out it is not a special form nor a macro.
<beach>
Not without querying the environment using the name.
<didi>
Sure.
<beach>
Which is what I mean by "looking for the function".
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<didi>
beach: I think I'm not understanding you. What I'm think of is (cond ((special-form-p x) ...) ((macro-p x) ...) (t ;assumes it is a function ...))
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<beach>
didi: You said <didi> So SBCL evals the arguments before looking for the function.
<didi>
Indeed.
<beach>
What did you mean by "looking for the function"?
<didi>
"Hey, what is function names by this symbol?"
<didi>
s/names/named
<beach>
And it must do that first.
<didi>
I don't think so... and it doesn't.
<beach>
Otherwise, it won't know whether it might be a macro.
<beach>
How on earth will it then know that it is not a macro?
<didi>
It checks if it's a macro. It doesn't check if it names a function.
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<didi>
If it's not a special form nor a macro, it assumes it names a function. It doesn't know yet there is no function named by the symbol.
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<beach>
But it very likely does that by calling FDEFINITION.
<beach>
Which is what I mean by "looking for the function".
<didi>
beach: Sorry, I don't know what is FDEFINITION.
<beach>
That's why I gave you the link.
<didi>
beach: Thanks. Tho I don't see how it applies here.
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<beach>
That's the function that the compiler calls to figure out whether it is a macro or a function or a special form.
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<beach>
It could call MACRO-FUNCTION, but MACRO-FUNCTION very likely calls FDEFINITION.
<didi>
beach: It might call it /after/ it assumes it names a function and /after/ it has evaluated the arguments.
<beach>
It can not.
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<beach>
Because it would not know then whether it has the right to evaluate the argument, because it would not know whether it might be a macro.
<didi>
Oh well. The program (my-post-defined-fn (defun my-post-defined-fn (x) x)) evaluated to MY-POST-DEFINED-FN, so I don't know what is happening then.
<didi>
beach: It already knows it is not a macro nor a special form.
<beach>
It calls FDEFINTIION for my-post-defined-fn first.
<beach>
Then it finds that it is neither a macro, nor a special form, nor a function.
<beach>
So it assumes it is a function.
<beach>
Then it knows that it has the right to evaluate the argument.
<didi>
beach: Sorry, I don't know how to convince you. The program runs and CLTL2 says it is possible.
<beach>
What I am saying does not contradict the fact that the code works.
<didi>
I...
<beach>
I am just saying that it has to "look for the function" first, in order to determine whether it has the right to evaluate the argument.
<didi>
OK.
<beach>
There is only one mapping from function names to function-like things in the environment. That mapping could show that the name is a function, a macro, a special form, or that it is not defined as any of those.
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<beach>
So that mapping has to be queried in order to determine whether it has the right to evaluate the argument.
<didi>
I see.
<beach>
Querying that mapping is "looking for the function". There is no other way to figure that out.
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<didi>
Hum. Apparently the macro `defvar' has a special way of dealing with its parameter `initial-value'. Something about only evaluating `initial-value' on use? I don't understand it.
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<beach>
If the variable already has a value then no new value is assigned to it.
<beach>
If you don't like that, use DEFPARAMETER instead.
<didi>
beach: No no. I mean "The initial-value form is not evaluated unless it is used; this fact is useful if evaluation of the initial-value form does something expensive like creating a large data structure. "
<didi>
-- CLTL2
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<beach>
CLtL2 is not the standard.
<didi>
Right.
<beach>
The Common Lisp HyperSpec says: initial-value---a form; for defparameter, it is always evaluated, but for defvar it is evaluated only if name is not already bound.
<didi>
beach: Indeed. It says something about Side Effects too that I can't parse.
<beach>
So DEFVAR first checks whether the name is bound. If it is, then the form is not evaluated.
* didi
nods
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<beach>
So if the form has side effects when evaluated, then those side effects will not happen if the name is already bound (with DEFVAR).
<didi>
oic
<didi>
beach: Thank you.
<beach>
Anytime.
<beach>
You can try it out easily. Start with (defvar *n* 0)
<pierpa>
Didi: you can check how an actual implementation expands a DEFVAR form...
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<didi>
pierpa: I tried it with DEFUN and got scared.
<loke>
beach: OK, I now have a very basic Maxima interaction session working. However... I have a problem that you might be able to explain.
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<beach>
I'm listening.
<loke>
beach: I have two panes: My Maxima interaction pane, and an :INTERACTOR pane below it.
<loke>
I can type all I want in the maxima pane, but the interactor is unresponsive.
<beach>
So two interactor panes?
<loke>
It's like the maxima pane steals all the input or something.
<beach>
Very likely, yes.
<loke>
beach: Yeah, pretty much
<loke>
How can I fix that?
<beach>
Each application frame defines a standard input and a standard output.
<beach>
ACCEPT etc, use those by default.
<beach>
I guess you need two threads, each running a command loop.
<beach>
But I don't quite understand why you would want two command loops.
<loke>
beach: All right, that's doable, but would they be able toshare a frame?
<beach>
Good question. I don't know.
<loke>
beach: I'm not sure I want. But I discovered that behaviour and I wanted to understand why.
<beach>
OK.
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<beach>
Yes, so basically, each frame has one command loop (at least by default).
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<beach>
And it reads from some stream and writes to some stream by default.
<beach>
And those streams are selected automatically as one of the interactors panes (if one exists) unless you tell it otherwise.
<loke>
OK, Maxima is strange... If I input “x/y”, maxima will return a symbolc equation that looks like this (simplified): ((MTIMES) $X ((MEXPT) $Y -1))
<beach>
Heh, nice.
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<loke>
that is mathematically correct, for not what the user expects to see... How, Maxima's default renderer to text will actually render that as “x/y”, so there is some kind of simplification phase happeneing. I can't for the life of me figure out where that is done though.
<didi>
Uh, so AFAICT the definition of "lambda-expression" changed from CLTL2 to the standard. CLTL2 says a lambda-expression can't be meaningfully evaluated, but the standard says there is a macro `lambda', which by being a macro, can be meaningfully evaluated.
<loke>
didi: I think you're right. In CLtL2 you needed to do #'(lambda () ...)
<didi>
loke: Nice. Thank you.
<loke>
(now I need to check my own copy of CLtL2)
<beach>
LAMBDA is not listed in the index of macros.
<pierpa>
Yes, the lambda macro has been a late addition
<didi>
Heh. (lambda ()) -> #'(lambda ())
<didi>
Cool stuff.
<didi>
I assume (function lambda-expression) works because we can use lambda-expressions in the place of function names.
<didi>
((lambda (x) (1+ x)) 41) => 42
<pierpa>
I think this is a deprecated syntax, IIRC?
<didi>
Oh, it even calls "a lambda form", where CLTL2 says it isn't a form, because it can't be evaluated.
<didi>
Tho maybe here "lambda form" is not a "form" the way CLTL2 defines it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<pierpa>
Anyway, even if obsoleted, CLTL2 is more fun to read :)
<didi>
Oh yeah. CLTL2 is fun to read indeed.
<pierpa>
It gives more background
* didi
nods
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<beach>
didi: Since you are reading CLtL2 and since we discussed when functions are "looked for", check section 8.5, page 209. There is a function FUNCTION-INFORMATION that is not in the Common Lisp HyperSpec, but basically the compiler of every implementation must use something similar to find out what a name in a function position means.
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<schweers>
do I read the hyperspec on aref and bit correctly, that the standard does not specify what happens when I attempt an out ouf bounds access? sbcl seems to throw an sb-int:invalid-array-index-error. I guess it depends on the debug optimizations?
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<beach>
schweers: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is full of undefined behavior like that.
<beach>
schweers: It also doesn't specify what happens if you give something other than an array to AREF.
<schweers>
k, thanks. Then I’ll just check the bounds myself.
<beach>
The fact that there are so many undefined situations in the Common Lisp HyperSpec is the reason I started the WSCL (pronounced "whistle") project.
<schweers>
I think I remember you mentioning this before.
<beach>
I am repeating it for the benefit of those #lisp participants who didn't see it that time. :)
<schweers>
And for those with weak memory, such as myself ;)
<beach>
That too, yes.
<flip214>
beach: thanks, looking!
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<flip214>
are you planning to include CDRs in the future, too?
<pierpa>
Duh. Thanks for the reminder. I was already watching the project but I had forgot about it :(
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<beach>
flip214: For WSCL? My current thinking is to avoid new functionality. A good existing Common Lisp implementation should already be a WSCL implementation, or at least nearly so.
<schweers>
beach: have you added any behavior that no existing implementation already has?
<beach>
schweers: At the moment, I haven't done anything. But I don't intend to add new functionality. I only plan to specify many of the things that the Common Lisp HyperSpec leaves unspecified. And it should be such that the most common implementations already specify those things in a reasonable way.
<beach>
There could of course be some odd cases, but I will try to avoid those.
<schweers>
maybe I didn’t make clear what I meant. The standard doesn’t specify what happens when aref is given an out of bounds index. You specified what should happen in WSCL?
<beach>
Like what happens if you pass something other than an array to AREF in safe code.
<beach>
Yes, I intend to specify things like that.
<beach>
And I plan to use the term "safe code" a lot for that.
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<beach>
"safe code" is already defined in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<schweers>
And you only specify behaviour, which at leas one existing implementation already does? For instance, as sbcl throws an error, you might specify that an error should be thrown?
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<beach>
[errors are "signaled" in Common Lisp. Not thrown.] Sort of. I do not plan to check whether at least one implementation does what I want. So it might be the case that for a few cases, no implementation does the right thing.
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<schweers>
okay, that’s what I meant :)
<schweers>
eh, yes, signalled, not thrown. my bad.
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<beach>
But SBCL is pretty picky already, so I expect few such cases.
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<shka>
beach: btw, where there is a repo with WSCL?
<Shinmera>
Though I use a preprocessing step to turn ~o into ~/ORG.SHIRAKUMO.TRIAL.GLSL::%FORMAT-OBJECT/, since that's quite a mouth full.
<Xach>
I liked the hack of ~/iso:8601/ for a date
<Shinmera>
Nice
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<bl1nd>
I want to learn clojurescript. Should I learn clojure before? Should I even learn another dialect of lisp before Clojure?
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<Shinmera>
This channel is for Common Lisp, so you will be told to learn Common Lisp, regardless of your interest in Clojure.
<schweers>
bl1nd: note that this channel is about common lisp, not the whole lisp family. Nevertheless I suppose learning clojure first will make your life easier.
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<shka>
learn common lisp!
<shka>
;-)
<oleo>
commie lisp
<oleo>
lol
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<bl1nd>
schweers: sorry, didn't realize that.
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<schweers>
not a problem. I guess there are channels dedicated to clojure and clojurescript. Maybe you should ask there
<bl1nd>
I did :)
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<khrbt>
why are swank fasls in ~/.slime/ and not ~/.cache/common-lisp/ ?
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<Xach>
khrbt: ancient history. swank is not "really" loaded through asdf.
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<Shinmera>
The actual why is a special surprise for ELS attendants ;)
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<Xach>
local package nickname print/read consistency is making me queasy
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* Xach
thinks about it
<Xach>
I've been trying to think of a way to add local package nicknames without adding any new packages or functions, only extending existing functions.
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<Xach>
But I can't think of a place to put a way to map a package to a local name in effect for it
<Xach>
e.g. if you have a local nickname for "com.xach.mycoolpackage" as "mcp", (some-standard-function (find-package "org.xach.mycoolpackage")) => ("mcp")
<sukaeto>
iirc, the round robin is the default (I couldn't find anything explicitly setting it). The stuff in fastcgi.conf is just the default that comes with nginx
<sjl>
wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem
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<sjl>
could add a key parameter to package-nicknames: (package-nicknames "org.xach.mycoolpackage" :local-to (find-package "some-package")) => ("mcp")
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<jeosol_>
@sukaeto, you are the man (or woman)
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<jeosol_>
you are using clack for this? anything else I need to use this nginx config file.
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<jeosol_>
sukaeto: you are using clack for this? anything else I need to use this nginx config file.
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<sukaeto>
jeosol_: yeah, it's just clack. If you're not using docker, you'll have to come up with some scheme for assigning ports to the workers (and supervising them)
<jeosol_>
I haven't done anything, so I can use whatever works to get me to get an AWS instance working
<sukaeto>
(of course, replace "worker1", etc with the container names, or localhost if you're not using docker)
<Shinmera>
I just use Hunchentoot with Nginx in front as a proxy.
<jeosol_>
Shinmera, can I see a sample config file. Thanks for chiming in
<Shinmera>
Google nginx proxy http or something.
<jeosol_>
While I have used hunchentoot, have not used it with nginx. Haven't used Clack at all. So some learning to do on my end.
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<sukaeto>
FWIW, I use hunchentoot in slime for dev
<sukaeto>
clack supports either backend
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<jeosol_>
I see
<didi>
So reading about dynamic extend, I got an idea: If, when using FFI, instead of messing with the GC, we declared the alloc'ed variables with dynamic extend and cleaned them just before leaving the block?
* didi
thinking out loud
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<Xach>
sjl: i like that last bit
<didi>
Just like the macro `with-open-stream'.
<jeosol_>
@sukaeto: you are saying with docker, the assignment of ports to workers is handled if I am using docker?
<sukaeto>
jeosol_: the docker containers themselves have their own own "port space". They're kind of like mini guests on the host
<stacksmith>
didi: what kind of variables do you allocate when using ffi?
<sukaeto>
so yeah, you can have all the workers just listen on the same port and there won't be any collisions if they're each in a different container
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<jeosol_>
I see, I admit I am not a docker expert. I will have to read up on this. Thanks for the explanations
<didi>
stacksmith: Well, many alien libraries have functions like `make-widget', which malloc memory.
<didi>
stacksmith: It is up to the user to clean them up.
<stacksmith>
didi: I have a macro "with-foreign-vals" that makes an environment with allocated foreign values. Like (with-foreign-vals (:int16 x :int16 y :int16 width :uint16 height) ...) I use it all the time for ad-hoc cffi allocations.
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<didi>
stacksmith: Cool. I struggle with the idea of wrapping these variables because I want to feel like programming in lisp, even if I'm calling foreign functions.
<stacksmith>
didi: I see... things like widgets generally need indefinite extent...
* didi
nods
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<stacksmith>
didi: you could actually do what you described, but I prefer - at least during development - to be able to create a window with widgets, say, and return to REPL...
<stacksmith>
didi: with- macros are cool, but they make it hard to split the code up.
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<didi>
stacksmith: Right? Oh well.
<stacksmith>
didi: I really miss continuations...
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<didi>
stacksmith: I know what they are, but never used them. Well, except for non-local exits.
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<stacksmith>
didi: I've never used any built-in ones, but sometimes it feels really great to turn a program inside out... Like say an image viewer that decodes as many bytes as you send it and returns instead of a loop that takes over and blocks...
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<didi>
stacksmith: Well, you don't need continuations for that. You can use threads. Unless you want green threads, AIUC. I've being writing a library for concurrency programming for a while, that abstracts away from threads, but I've being stuck.
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<stacksmith>
didi: I am always dealing with deeply nested trees, and I wind up wanting to do something deep inside on a branch. I could send a lambda, but it can only do so much. With continuations, I could make the code stop where I want and return. Then I can do things like bind some variables and go back in for the rest of the branch.
<Bike>
cffi has with-foreign-objects, is it different?
<didi>
stacksmith: Maybe look at the condition system?
<didi>
stacksmith: Sounds like something useful for your use case.
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<didi>
Bike: I dunno. Good question. Maybe it can be used. But the more high level question is: Should the alien variables feel like lisp variables that can be GCed or not?
<stacksmith>
Bike: I am trying to remember why I didn't use that... Perhaps stupidity.
<Bike>
huh? the gc probably can't handle alien memory
<Bike>
that's why it's alien
<didi>
Indeed. But we can hook into the GC of implementations that allows us to do it.
<stacksmith>
didi: you mean foreign-free I assume...
<didi>
stacksmith: Yeap.
<Bike>
which implementations are those?
<didi>
Bike: SBCL is one, I think?
<Bike>
no, alien memory is still alien on sbcl, i'm pretty sure
<stacksmith>
I don't think any implementation keeps track of foreign memory.
<Bike>
i'm really not sure what you have in mind here
<Bike>
some implementations, like sbcl, can already stack allocate foreign memory
<didi>
Finalization is the name I'm looking fore.
<Shinmera>
The memory being foreign by definition makes it non-gcable.
<Bike>
i don't think you can put finalizers on foreign objects
<didi>
You wrap around the foreign object.
<stacksmith>
I thing by GC didi means just getting rid of it properly at some point in the fugure.
<Bike>
you mean, have a lisp object that is asosicated with some block of foreign memory?
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<stacksmith>
Bike: I think the reason I wrote with-foreign-vals is because I allocate/free a single foreign object containing all the foreign values specified...