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<fouric>
attila_lendvai: no way, that's dope af
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<fouric>
Do you have any particular links you can give me? All my searches are just yielding normal list-traversal functions
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<attila_lendvai>
fouric: there's something new in sbcl that I haven't seen, iirc in sb-introspect, and a few years ago we wrote our own in hu.dwim.debug (also sbcl specific, but probably somewhat bitrotten by now)
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<attila_lendvai>
fouric: seems to be this one: SB-EXT::GC-AND-SEARCH-ROOTS
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<fouric>
Oh! Thanks!
* fouric
was abuot to start grepping through all the symbols in SB-INTROSPECT
<attila_lendvai>
fouric: actually, I think this is the more public API: SB-INTROSPECT:MAP-ROOT
<fouric>
Hm, undefined function
<fouric>
oh thanks again
<attila_lendvai>
fouric: the way to find it: (apropos "root")
<fouric>
!
<fouric>
I didn't know that that function existed!
<attila_lendvai>
scratch that, map-root seems to do something else. no idea what inspired its name, though...
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<fouric>
sb-ext::gc-and-search-roots is not defined
<fouric>
i wonder if my sbcl is too old?
<Bike>
i think it's a rpretty recent feature
<fouric>
Hm, I'll try getting the latest, then.
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<Xach>
fouric: how old is yours?
<fouric>
1.3.14.debian
<Xach>
well, that is not *so* old
<fouric>
Old enough, apparently.
<fouric>
:/
* fouric
finds the function in 1.4.5
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Lycurgus>
yello beach, do you use roswell?
<beach>
Nope, sorry.
<Lycurgus>
ah, np
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<beach>
I don't even know what it does.
<Lycurgus>
it's a cl pkg mgr
<beach>
... though I have heard the name used here, of course.
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<Lycurgus>
which uses ql
<Lycurgus>
like gem or cabal or whatever
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<Lycurgus>
s/cabal/stack/ happy to say don't know what right thing for ruby is
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<beach>
"X is similar to Y (for some language that I don't use)" has never been an explanation that works for me. But I guess when I have time, I'll go read the Roswell documentation.
<beach>
Same with questions like "Is there something similar to X (for some language that I don't use) in Common Lisp?".
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<Lycurgus>
are you a common lisp monoglot?
<Lycurgus>
nothing wrong with that
<Lycurgus>
uih
<beach>
I quit using other languages a few decades ago, so I missed pretty much ever language invented since then.
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<beach>
I did a bit of Python, just for teaching purposes, but that's it.
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<Lycurgus>
in ur wheelhouse you can do stuff
<pjb>
We could give you a comparison Lisp vs. FORTRAN if you wanted.
<pjb>
Have a look at FLPL ;-)
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<Lycurgus>
funny when you stepped out a bit it was to a not even but wanna be lisp like thing
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<fouric>
beach: Roswell makes the process of installing and using multiple different Lisp implementations a bit more convenient
<fouric>
It makes it easier to manage multiple *versions* of the same implementation easier, as well
<fouric>
...and I've heard that it has features to make writing CL "scripts" easier, but I haven't tried that myself yet.
<beach>
fouric: Thanks. Very good explanation!
<rumbler3_>
I still don't know what is inconvenient about symlinking the version of an implementation that you put in a place
<fouric>
Glad to be useful *to* #lisp for once :)
<rumbler3_>
i have a code folder, in it is the repo for sbcl and ccl
<rumbler3_>
I have a repo for ccl 1.11 and for ccl trunk
<rumbler3_>
I use c-u M-x slime to pick the version I want to run under emacs
<rumbler3_>
what part of this does roswell make easier?
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<fouric>
Downloading and installing new versions, for one.
<fouric>
ros install sbcl/1.2.0 vs. going to the SBCL web site and picking out that specific version.
<beach>
I am willing to believe that some people have more complicated requirements than I do, even though I don't fully understand those complications.
<fouric>
Very useful for debugging problems that only arise on a particular version.
<fouric>
Switching between implementations also takes fewer keystrokes and is more environment-independent than symlinks.
<fouric>
ros use sbcl/1.4.5 vs ln -s target $HOME/path/to/sbcl-1.4.5
<fouric>
...and there's more that I can't test because I don't have roswell set up on my desktop yet.
<fouric>
...and it does more than just that - it allows you to very quickly install both Quicklisp libraries and also arbitrary GitHub libraries (potentially not in Quicklisp)
<fouric>
ros install fouric/cl-termbox
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<fouric>
(don't actually install that library, it's broken, but the point stands)
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<fouric>
Marginally quicker core builds, too - ros build <something> (can't test) vs. loading the script and then (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ...) etc.
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<smokeink>
does (ql;quickload :ironclad) yield this error for anyone else? COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<IRONCLAD-SOURCE-FILE "ironclad" "src" "ciphers" "blowfish"> tried with both sbcl 1.4.4 and 1.4.5
<scymtym>
smokeink: i routinely compile ironclad with SBCL as a benchmark for the compiler (shaved off another ~ 10 % runtime and consing yesterday). i didn't have see problems. in any case, the actual error is either above the one you mention or muffled by quicklisp. i suggest trying (asdf:load-system :ironclad :force t) and searching for the actual error
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<smokeink>
the trigger for that error turned out to be this (proclaim `(optimize (debug 0) (speed 3) (space 3) (safety 0))) in my .sbclrc
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<scymtym>
smokeink: do yourself a favor and don't use that policy as a default
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<dxtr>
So I've been reading and looking around for a while and I still feel I don't quite know what clack is
<dxtr>
Why would I use that?
<Shinmera>
it's an abstraction over HTTP server implementations.
<Shinmera>
you might want to use it if you have different concerns about the capabilities of the server in different settings.
<dxtr>
So if I "lock" my stuff to a specific http server then clack is practically useless?
<Shinmera>
Yes.
<dxtr>
Ah, alright
<Shinmera>
It also has some other stuff like middleware that offer some additional features, but I don't really know about that part.
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<Shinmera>
Also, disclaimer, I guess: I never used clack myself, I have my own way of doing things that I prefer.
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<kolb>
smokeink: yeah don't ever do that.
<kolb>
Your implementation should provide sane defaults
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<jmercouris>
what do people generally have in their sbclrc eclrc ccl-init files other than quicklisp?
<Bike>
i set print-length so circular structures don't hang the repl
<Shinmera>
I load a custom ASDF
<Bike>
and so that i don't accidentally print 50000 length arrays
<jmercouris>
also, what are the justifications for implementation providers to make something like an sb-ext rather than a standalone system?
<Shinmera>
and on sbcl set the source location
<beach>
An OPTIMIZE proclamation for debug 3 speed 0.
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<jmercouris>
beach: lol
<beach>
why is that funny?
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<jmercouris>
beach: I assume you were making a reference to the config above, if that is actually true, it is not as funny
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<jmercouris>
Bike: that's a good one, how do you set that?
<Shinmera>
(setf *print-circle* T)
<Bike>
(setf *print-length* 20) or so
<jmercouris>
Shinmera: thanks
<jmercouris>
no wait, now I'm not sure
<beach>
jmercouris: Yes, that's what I put in my .sbclrc. Is that funny?
<Bike>
well, print circle is good too
<jmercouris>
beach: I said in the case that it *is* it is not funny
<jmercouris>
nvm, doesn't matter :D
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<beach>
Got it [I think].
<Bike>
sb-ext instead of standalone system, a lot of the extensions aren't standard or portable, for one
<jmercouris>
Bike: what are some of the reasons for that? what can make something non-portable?
<jmercouris>
including a c lib or something like that? or?
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<Bike>
well, for example, sb-ext has stuff for compare and swap
<Bike>
this requires compiler and runtime support
<Bike>
but isn't part of the language specification
<jmercouris>
ah, okay
<jmercouris>
so basically when you need to interface with the compiler in such a way not described in the spec, you have to make a non-portable extension
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<jmercouris>
or rather, in a way that is not possible based on the spec
<jmercouris>
e.g. a non-composable problem (I think that's how you'd say that)
<Bike>
i don't know what composability is
<jmercouris>
I'm trying to say that "given x functions we have in our posession, we have a set of things we can do", what we are trying to do, is outside of that set, so therefore we must expand "x"
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<whoman>
try prolog
<whoman>
for solving those kind of situations
<Bike>
anyway, and if implementations offer extensions in a uniform enough way you can have another library that wraps all of those and acts as a portable extension
<Bike>
like bordeaux threads
<jmercouris>
so, in a way, the language spec can be extended if enough people agree on it, without actually changing the spec
<cage_>
i hope to became the new maintainer eventually, patch and testing are welcome of course :)
<Bike>
right
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<oldCrisis>
I am 27, Is it too late to learn lisp as my first language. I have a little experience with programming before, nothing ground breaking just some simple programs
<beach>
Not too late.
<beach>
If you need advice on what to install and what material to read, you can ask here.
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<oldCrisis>
beach: I did setup SBCL and emacs. And found out the Practical CL book
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<beach>
Then you are all set.
<oldCrisis>
ok thanks
<beach>
You can even ask Common Lisp questions here if you like.
<beach>
It is not a Common Lisp support channel, but newbies are tolerated as long as they show a willingness to improve.
<beach>
For really basic questions, there is #clnoobs.
<oldCrisis>
One last question Does Practical CL book contains exercise? Because I cannot learn without exercises
<oldCrisis>
Oh, what lisp channel is this?
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<beach>
It is a channel for discussions among people who are interested in Common Lisp.
<oldCrisis>
ok go it
<beach>
The discussions can be quite detailed sometimes.
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<beach>
I would think PCL has exercises. Let me check...
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<beach>
Hmm, no I guess not.
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<oldCrisis>
sad
<beach>
There should be plenty of exercises on the net to work on.
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<oldCrisis>
ok i'll find them. thank you for your help :)
<beach>
Anytime.
<Xach>
No, it does not.
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<Xach>
(sorry for the lag. network)
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<_death>
if it's your first language, maybe gentle is better
<_death>
ah, gone
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<jmercouris>
beach: pcl has exercises at the end of the book
<beach>
Oh. Sorry.
<jmercouris>
beach: they are titled "Practical: <some topic>"
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<jmercouris>
like "Practical: Parsinb Binary Files"
<beach>
I'll try to remember.
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<Shinmera>
They're not really exercises, since the book goes through the implementation process.
<Shinmera>
Rather than asking you to do something on your own.
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<jmercouris>
They are exercises with solutions, it doesn't make them *not* exercises
<Shinmera>
There is never a singular problem statement or anything of the sort. It's a tutorial, not an exercise.
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<jmercouris>
Shinmera: "Practical: make a spam filter", that's your exercise and problem statement
<jmercouris>
then it is subdivided into smaller problems that it interactively helps you solve
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<jmercouris>
it's not a language reference, nor is it a tutorial on lisp, it is what I can only describe as an exercise
<whoman>
practical - practice
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<dxtr>
So do anyone here have experience with snooze? I don't understand the routing here really
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<fouric>
Does anyone know of a (library containing a) function that allows me to "invert" the order of nested calls so that they read left-to-right?
<fouric>
Shinmera: do you have a few minutes to elaborate on your toplists repo, or should i just read the code
<Bike>
sounds more like a compiler than a macro, heh.
<fouric>
Erm, macro, not function, sorry.
<fouric>
You *should* be able to make it with a macro, though, right?
<fouric>
...and I suppose that that means that you don't know of an already-existing one?
<Bike>
well, yes, but it would be a pretty complicated one.
<Bike>
i don't, no. other than compilers.
<Bike>
it would be okay to write yourself if you knew you only had function calls.
<Bike>
and literals or symbols. but that's hardly ever the case.
<Bike>
why do you want this?
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<fouric>
I get the feeling that for some types of deeply-nested function+macro forms, it would be easier to read left-to-right than the other way around.
<fouric>
I was specifically thinking of dataflow programming - not that I have any experience with it, but it doesn't hurt to look around.
<Bike>
maybe, but that's generally a rewrite i'd do manually
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<Bike>
i only know dataflow programming when you actually draw it out instead of doing it textually
<Bike>
like puredata
<fouric>
Part of it might be that I don't have enough experience to know that this isn't really something that I need - but I'd at least like to find out for myself.
<fouric>
Why would forms other than function calls, literals, and symbols (are literals and symbols called "forms"?) interfere with the making of such a macro?
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<Bike>
a "form" is anything you evaluate.
<fouric>
OK, good.
<Bike>
well, how i understand your conception of this function is you give it a form, and it rewrites it to avoid nesting.
<Bike>
so (foo (bar) (baz)) becomes (let* ((a (bar)) (b (baz))) (foo a b)) or so.
<Bike>
nesting is easy to understand with function calls; the elements of the cdr of the call are evaluated normally, so you can rewrite recursively and such
<Bike>
special operators, however, have more complicated syntax
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<fouric>
Oh, sorry, I wasn't very precise.
<fouric>
I was envisioning a macro where you give it a syntax like (llread (x out-sym) (foo x) (bar x) (baz x)) and it gets expanded to be nested: (baz (bar (foo out-sym)))
<Bike>
oh. oh oh oh
<Bike>
so i have it backwards
<fouric>
yes, but that's because i'm tired and derpy lol
<Bike>
and llread means x is bound to the previous result, except for the first one
<Bike>
that's pretty easy
<fouric>
I think that I could write it in a reasonable about of time - but it feels like this is something that might be desirable enough to be included in a utility library like Alexandria - but it isn't in Alexandria, and I don't know how to describe it in such a way that my search engine can find it.
<fouric>
...hence the question.
<Bike>
mm. no, i don't think it exists. there is a similar macro in uiop somewhere, though...
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<fouric>
I'm beginning to realize that one of Lisp's greatest strengths is the ability to create a DSL that allows you to express your ideas in the most clear or concise way possible.
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<_death>
right, and you need a good taste so that what's clear to you won't be a total mess to others
<fouric>
...and that's the hard part, it seems.
<fouric>
It feels like Lisp makes programming even more like art by removing many of the mechanical restrictions that other languages have.
* fouric
is a bad artist
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<Shinmera>
fouric: Hm?
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<fouric>
What is a "top list"? Literally just a list of things that one finds cool?
<Shinmera>
The idea is you can create lists of items, and people can sort them according to how they rate them, then compare how they rated things.
<fouric>
_death: https://adeht.org/ is very, very interesting to me. I don't suppose that you know of any similar sites or pages collecting articles/posts like those?
<Shinmera>
It's something I did a while ago to discuss which games me and my friends liked best of 2017, and I thought it might make a nice thing to have in general.
<fouric>
Shinmera: Oh! That's *much* cooler than I was imagining!
<fouric>
...I need this.
<Shinmera>
Sure, then wait a few more days and you can have it.
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<fouric>
(sorry, not trying to shove you into making it easy for me to use - I'm happy to wait, and I would try to contribute myself if I had a bit more time)
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<Shinmera>
It'll be publicly available on tymoon.eu like everything else I do, so
<fouric>
Thank you sir :)
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<_death>
fouric: there's yarchive.net but it's not Lisp specific
<fouric>
"Computers" "Electrical" "Physics" "Space" I'll take it
<whoman>
fouric: terms of art; tried haskell? or rather, Prolog ?
<fouric>
I tried Haskell *briefly*, then gave up - Common Lisp is much easier, mechanically. Both those languages are still on my list of things to learn, but far enough down that it'll be a few decades until I get to them.
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<fouric>
aeth: nope! I haven't even heard of it *clicks*
<fouric>
oh loooool
<fouric>
that's amusing
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<aeth>
I think the only language more expressive than Lisp, and in a very different way, is assembly. There, you can do literally whatever you want, and probably very efficiently, although not portably. (And C is not sufficient portable assembly.)
<_death>
Lisp is sufficiently portable assembly :)
<aeth>
Assembly fairly directly translates to/from s-expressions, too, so it probably wouldn't be too hard to give it real macros. It already has real functions.
<_death>
compare this solution to the one given in C in the first link
<fouric>
Hm, we may have differing notions of "expressive".
<fouric>
Assembly is certainly not concise.
<aeth>
_death: All we need is more languages with define-vop so someone can write a define-vop portability library.
<aeth>
fouric: Everything is concise when you apply enough macros and functions, though.
<aeth>
CL isn't a particularly concise language if you take away the macros (including the built-in macros)
<aeth>
Iteration would be done through tagbody and go!
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<aeth>
tagbody and go can fairly directly be translated into asm. Just "namespace" the tags to mimic the contained goto effect.
<Bike>
except go out of a function.
<Bike>
and unwind protect and special bindings
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<fouric>
Yeah, but if you remove macros, it's no longer Lisp.
<aeth>
fouric: My point is that with asm, you can trivially add Lisp-style macros and then use Lisp-style macros to write Lisp-style abstractions (although you're working with registers instead of lexically scoped variables and special variables)
<aeth>
I'm not sure there are any languages where it's that easy.
<whoman>
list processing? s-expressions? there are a few aspects at work here.
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<aeth>
whoman: You'd have to write the macro system in another language instead of directly in asm (unless you first built up all of the abstractions necessary, which would be a waste of time because CL exists)
<aeth>
Although, nothing stops you from writing CL in asm except time.
<aeth>
There's no mismatch you'd get with high level languages.
<aeth>
No hacky workarounds.
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<_death>
I note that this latter example doesn't define macros..
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<pjb>
aeth: well, writing lisp (or anything) in assembly is rather easy and fast: you just need to implement a few "primitive" functions and assembler macros, and use them systematically. It may be syntactically inconvenient, but you can achieve a higher level of abstraction quickly and easily enough.
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<alandipert>
_death your day 5 asm solution is awesome, thanks for sharing
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<_death>
alandipert: it's merely a "port" of the C solution
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<alandipert>
_death still :-)
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