<didi>
This is such a frustrating bug. I updated SBCL but it still keep happening. I am trying to isolate it, but no luck yet.
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<didi>
It is as if X from (dolist (x list) ...) goes beyond the end of the list.
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<didi>
OK, I feel I am closing in. This either have to do with DEFMETHOD or the size of a &rest parameter. I changed the method to a DEFUN with a straight parameter and it computed without an error.
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<didi>
Aha! If I copy-seq the &rest parameter, no error occurs.
<Bike>
oh, maybe due to the dynamic extent of rest arguments then.
<didi>
Uuuh.
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<didi>
Bike: Shouldn't I expect the rest argument to live enough for other functions to use it?
<Xach>
You can use it but not change it
<Bike>
i think so, yeah, but there are- yeah that.
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<didi>
Oh well, the error finally brought down my computer. Lots of RAM consumption and stuff.
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<didi>
Ah, it is not me who is changing the rest parameter. If I don't copy-seq the rest parameter to the local (loop for x in rest-parameter ...), the error occurs. I am almost there.
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<didi>
If anyone wants to look at the method, it is https://paste.debian.net/hidden/85956d89 . I'm even copying the rest parameter for my own use, and the error still occurs. This method calls lots of other functions, so I don't know how useful is to look only to it.
<didi>
If I copy the rest argument before passing it to DOLIST, the error doesn't occur
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<didi>
I suspect DOLIST is doing something naughty to the rest parameter.
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<Pierpa_>
nothing suspect jumps at the eye in this method...
<didi>
pierpa_: Thank you for looking at it.
<Pierpa_>
yw. DOLIST should do nothing the the list
<didi>
Right? :-(
<Bike>
so what is it you copy that removes the problem?
<Zhivago>
I think the simplest way to consider it is that it is a not-invalid subset of a valid set.
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<Zhivago>
Which implies that when you take the union of that with another valid set you should get a valid set.
<Zhivago>
(or intersection, for that matter)
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<Bike>
so, like i have no dogs, and my pal Negasi has one green dog. we can say ««all dogs Negasi and Bike have are green» is true iff all dogs negasi has are green and all dogs bike has are green». all dogs negasi and i have are green, and all of negasi's dogs are green, so to make the equivalence work all of my dogs should be considered green as well.
<Bike>
sensible enough i guess.
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<Bike>
but it does mean that "all A are B" doesn't imply "some A are B". it's my understanding that aristotle killed boole in a duel over this
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<jcowan>
Well, they definitely fought it out, but who's the winner is still an open question, as usual in philosophy
<loke>
Repeating 1 or 2 times still works. Repeating 3 times makes it fail.
<loke>
Clearly this is an issue caused by your absolutely massive list of &REST parameters
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<didi>
If it's relevant, I am running SBCL version "1.4.5" with --dynamic-space-size 4096 and --control-stack-size 32.
<didi>
loke: Indeed.
<loke>
Why are you doing that? It's generally quite a bad idea.
<didi>
The POC it's in the order of magnitude of the rests I've been dealing with.
<loke>
You should change that code.
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<didi>
Yeah, I guess.
<loke>
If you have more than a few tens of arguments, you should consider changing your design.
<didi>
Oh, OK. My idea of designing it like LIST, for example.
<loke>
If it's many thousands (200k in your case) make it a vector.
<didi>
You mean, the rest parameter?
<loke>
A list is much better than rest arguments of course, but a vector would probably be faster still (depending on what you intend to do with it)
<didi>
oic
<loke>
But the key thing is to get rid of that ridiculous &REST parameter
<didi>
But in my defense, LIST uses it!
<loke>
didi: Yes, but not for the purpose of creating lists several hundreds (or even thousands) of elements long.
<didi>
:-)
<loke>
So it's a pretty weak defence :-)
<didi>
:-P
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<Pierpa_>
They've been too optimist when defining CALL-ARGUMENT-LIMIT. Resetting it to 50 should fix this problem. 50 btw is way more than reasonaly high.
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<loke>
pierpa: I agree with that.
<Zhivago>
I'm not sure that I can agree. Having call-argument-limit makes things like code generators much harder to deal with.
<Zhivago>
Having it work, but be slow, would be far preferable.
<Zhivago>
C should be a sufficient illustration of the perils of 'it works here by accident'.
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<stylewarning>
ELS accept/reject notifications are out
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<Pierpa_>
loke: a code generator which must work by the spec and not by accident can rely on not more than 50 arguments, anyway.
<rme>
ccl's call-arguments-limit is 65K, and that seems pretty reasonable to me
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<Pierpa_>
if it works then it's reasonable :)
<rme>
a limit of 4.6e18 is so high as to be useless
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<dtornabene>
does anyone know of any security tooling done in lisp? or people who do security work in lisp whose brain I could pick about some questions...?
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<smokeink>
web security ? or binary protection kind of security ?
<dtornabene>
I'm aware of the ecl-spyware guy from like the dotcom boom era
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<dtornabene>
smokeink: either, anything really
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<Pierpa_>
bodyguards management software?
<dtornabene>
pierpa_: .....not what I had in mind! but sounds interesting
<Pierpa_>
ah :)
<dtornabene>
so I guess I should throw one of them out there
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<dtornabene>
rosette https://emina.github.io/rosette/ is this beautiful tool, and there's been some really interesting work done in the last few years utilizing SAT/SMT around security issues
<dtornabene>
Automatic Generation of Control Flow Hijacking Exploits for Software Vulnerabilites
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<smokeink>
well you can do pretty much any kind of securing tooling with lisp, I think an intelligent sql-injection tester with lisp would be cool, but I haven't heard of any yet
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<dtornabene>
that does sound cool
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<smokeink>
it's like python on steroids, with super speed and the full power interactive developing and other things that make the program logic easier to follow
<dtornabene>
I've googled a little bit, was hoping there was some code to look at, haven't found anything yet. Which struck me as odd, given what would seem like the strengths of lisp for security work
<smokeink>
yeah it's fucking surprising
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<smokeink>
actually I also wanted to see such stuff in Lisp, but most lispers are into areas of research other than security
<dtornabene>
like, in the applications tab of rosettes website theres a tool for verifying BGP policies, a couple of other things, but no offensive tools
<smokeink>
interactively fiddling with machine code :)
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<burzos>
Why does format automatically insert a newline at 80 characters?
<smokeink>
it should not
<burzos>
Unless maybe it's a problem with my terminal.
<burzos>
Ok.
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<smokeink>
dtornabene: (not lisp related, but nice nonetheless) "I've a dream: A peer-to-peer network, where services like search engines or social networks aren't offered by big companies, who in turn need to make money by selling the privacy of their users. Where all data is encrypted, so that access is only possible for people who have the key and really are authorized. Which layman can use without cryptic user interfaces. Where the browser is a platform for
<burzos>
The difficulty I think is that we have the technical ability to do that^ piece-by-piece but that won't get critical adoption.
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<burzos>
You'd need a facebook competitor, not just something that did encrypted chat correctly.
<burzos>
Which you could then add more stuff to later.
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<stylewarning>
burzos: are you using format with ~A with pretty printing?
<burzos>
Probably, if pretty printing is default on.
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<burzos>
Printing some s-expressions.
<stylewarning>
burzos: is it breaking when you print a data structure or a string?
<stylewarning>
Yeah those are getting pretty printed probably
<stylewarning>
Try binding *print-pretty* to nil
<burzos>
Cool, thanks.
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<didi>
Thank you, everybody. Now everything is good and well. Tho, IMO, SBCL shouldn't accept calls for functions with more arguments it can handle. I even got some wrong answers from the offending function, so it didn't crash every time.
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<loke>
didi: I'd recommend you take that to the SBCL developer's mailing list.
<didi>
loke: Thanks.
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<stacksmith>
didi: SBCL reports that 'call-argument-limit' is 4611686018427387903
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<SaganMan>
Morning my glib globs
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<k-hos>
wubbalubbadubdub
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<SaganMan>
lol, you know what I'm upto k-hos :)
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<Shinmera>
Looks like my ELS paper has been accepted.
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<Shinmera>
It is a bit funny to me that two reviewers note that the paper is too short, despite the fact that demo papers are supposed to be no more than two pages, which I've already exceeded.
<jackdaniel>
you should have used larger pages, duh!
<jackdaniel>
:)
<jackdaniel>
congrats
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<Shinmera>
Thanks. I guess I'll make the paper longer still for the revision.
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<beach>
Shinmera: Congratulations! We are still waiting for the decision on ours.
<Shinmera>
Apparently there were 21 submissions and only 14 of them are getting accepted to make the conference less crowded.
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<beach>
Oh, no sorry. Got the information. Two out of two accepted. YAY!
<Shinmera>
Wow, congratulations
<beach>
Thanks.
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<Shinmera>
If the amount of submissions keeps up it might start to make sense to extend the symposium by another day.
<dim>
(it's failing now, so I might get around to do that only tomorrow)
<Shinmera>
What is failing?
<dim>
it looks like a timeout, but I'm travelling on using not-that-reliable networks, so I don't think it's on the ELS website end
<dim>
tomorrow I should be home again, with solid connection, and I'll retry then
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<Shinmera>
Oh, okey. If you have any problems, please let me know.
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<samla>
Does anyone here have any experience with the 40ants fork of Weblocks?
<dim>
Shinmera: sure, thanks!
<samla>
And more of a softball question: anyone got any experience and opinion of weblocks?
<Shinmera>
My opinion on web frameworks is that they shouldn't try to do too much and should give me full control over how things work. Weblocks stands in opposition to that.
<Shinmera>
It's a different approach, and "just not for me."
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<samla>
For sure, if I understand it correctly (automatically updating widgets in a tree through AJAX) then it might be a nice way of making something like a SPA+Ceramic desktop program
<samla>
And the 40ants branch seems to have ripped out a lot of superfluous stuff
<jackdaniel>
I've worked a little with weblocks and the idea was pretty cool
<jackdaniel>
not sure if it is the best approach for web stuff, but still a very nice thing to play with
<samla>
jackdaniel: is what I wrote above in parens about automatically updating widgets true or have I misunderstood everything :-)?
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<jackdaniel>
yes, in this sense it was dynamic
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<jackdaniel>
for instance I've created a widget which changed application language. clicking it did update whole website to a localized version
<jackdaniel>
(keep in mind that it wasn't redirection to some other location, it worked like a toggle button)
<samla>
Nice! How did you/weblocks propagate that kind of change throughout the system?
<jackdaniel>
but: 1) above certain level of complexity it was hard for me to change it (lack of experience with weblocks?); 2) I've hit bugs quite frequently and project seemed to be abandoned
<jackdaniel>
I don't know, probably through *magic*
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<jackdaniel>
(and don't remember, I've used it 2 years ago or more for about two weeks, so..)
<jackdaniel>
if I had to guess, I'd bet on websockets, but I can't really tell
<samla>
Hehe :-) the server/client communication is through JavaScript magic (not websockets actually!)
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<Shinmera>
Websockets are too modern
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<schweers>
is there a way to use slime on a remote host, so that disconnecting (or network failure) will not terminate the current execution?
<schweers>
I don’t mean to not terminate the lisp session, I know that there is :dont-close for that
<schweers>
but I have a long running command which I’d like to watch in slime, and I’d like to be able to do this even in the presence of network failures
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<schweers>
I know I could use a seperate thread, but I guess debugging that is a bit tricky.
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<smokeink>
what could be tricky about having it in a separate thread? slime also works in a thread of its own (I am not saying there isn't anything tricky, just asking, cuz I also want to know)
<smokeink>
you can launch an emacs on the remote machine
<jackdaniel>
you may simply start swank server on remote machine
<jackdaniel>
if it is started with options :dont-close t :style :spawn
<jackdaniel>
then when you get disconnected and when you connect again you get the same session
<jackdaniel>
(of course application has to have its own loop which won't die in the meantime)
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<jackdaniel>
schweers: ↑
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<schweers>
hmm, :style :spawn does the trick? I’ll try that
<schweers>
jackdaniel: should this also keep running if I issue `slime-disconnect' from emacs?
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<schweers>
it doesn’t :/
<schweers>
smokeink: I don’t see a way to attach a repl to a separate thread. Not sure how to properly phrase this.
<schweers>
I don’t get what is printed to standard-output, for instance, although that should be easy to fix
<smokeink>
yes that's easy to fix
<schweers>
and regarding running emacs on the remote: yes, possible, but kind of eww ;)
<smokeink>
you can run a terminal-mode emacs
<schweers>
but maybe it really is the best solution right now
<smokeink>
and connect to the terminal session using ssh and screen/tmux
<smokeink>
I think any (break) inside the thread will trigger the debugger
<schweers>
oh I just realized that the output went to the swank server, so it wasn’t gone
<smokeink>
in the worst case to get a repl after the debugger has popped out, you can evaluate (loop (print (eval (read)))) or something like that , in the frame
<smokeink>
or you could redirect the output to a log file
<smokeink>
or to a global variable, since your lisp session doesn't die
<smokeink>
you can also just run the plain simple repl over the ssh+screen/tmux session, without slime or emacs
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<schweers>
I was thinking of this last option, but I don’t like it very much. I’ve become quite accustomed to having slime available. So I guess it will be running a local emacs instance
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<smokeink>
another option: you can run a gui Emacs on the remote computer and do X forwarding through ssh so that the emacs window is rendered on your local desktop (not sure how it will behave when the connection gets interrupted)
<schweers>
probably suffers from the same problems on network failure
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<smokeink>
https://www.xpra.org/ "it allows you to run programs, usually on a remote host, direct their display to your local machine, and then to disconnect from these programs and reconnect from the same or another machine, without losing any state. "
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<schweers>
huh. maybe not what I want right now, but might be cool otherwise.
<schweers>
although ... maybe I’ll give it a try
<shka>
emacs has a server mode
<schweers>
shka: why on earth didn’t I think of this earlier? I use that anyway!
<schweers>
one can forward it over ssh, right?
<shka>
never tried, but i assume yes
<shka>
i don't see why not
<schweers>
I’m still waiting for the remote host to finish something else, then I’ll try one of these solutions. Thanks for the input!
<schweers>
oh dear, mosh seems to have its own crypto :/
<loke>
schweers: Really?
<schweers>
I’m not entirely sure, but the FAQ has a section which suggests this, as the security of mosh is compared to ssh and ssl. It uses ssh in the beginning though.
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<loke>
schweers: You'd assume the SSH connection is used to exchange the session keys, making the opportity to screw stuff up smaller.
<loke>
At least they don't have to deal with key exchange, diffie-hellman, assymetric keys etc.
<dTal>
apparently is uses AES
<dTal>
seems like a perfectly sound design
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<TeMPOraL>
a quick question - did anyone here had a problem with log4slime (log4cl), in which the menu worked, but REPL buffer didn't colorize/propertize log output?
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<TeMPOraL>
ok, found it; prettify-symbols-mode breaks half of SLIME coloring, and it also breaks log4slime
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<flip214>
does somebody know of a CL library that help with text analysis? ie. building word vectors in N dimensions etc.?
<ecraven>
that song captures what lisp means to me better than anything else I've ever seen
<ecraven>
thanks, I took that to mean that the original song was by julia ecklar..
<schweers>
I first heard the song ages ago, long before I knew any lisp. the more I learnt, the more I understood what the song was about.
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<schweers>
As far is I know, the original song was written and performed by her, as well as the performance of the parody done by her.
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<schweers>
But as I’m not at all familiar with any of her work, besides this one, I don’t know for sure
<Lycurgus>
God
<Lycurgus>
lots and lots of
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<Lycurgus>
*like to see some more
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<pierpa>
Don't FSF still recommends C? They're more than a bit schizophrenic about lisp
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<schweers>
the FSF recommends programming languages?
<dlowe>
I think they still maintain that guile is the one true extension language
<schweers>
too bad that hardly anyone seems to take them on that advice
<schweers>
but other than that I didn’t know they recommend languages
<schweers>
Pierpa: how are they schizophrenic about lisp?
<pierpa>
schweers: in the past they did. I'm checking if they still do.
<dlowe>
anyway, if we're going to talk about the lisp family instead of common lisp, let's bring it to ##lisp
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<smokeink>
can (describe #'func) be made to return the lambda list of #'func instead of just printing it to the standard output? or is there any alternative function for doing that?
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<didi>
stacksmith: <stacksmith> didi: SBCL reports that 'call-argument-limit' is 4611686018427387903
<stacksmith>
Oh yeah.
<stacksmith>
Have you found an empirical limit?
<Xach>
burzos: sorry, that is a mistake on the website
<didi>
stacksmith: Well, I can crash it with 200 k elements.
<burzos>
Xach: The package has been dropped?
<Xach>
burzos: yes. it does not work with current sbcl.
<stacksmith>
didi: and you can work around it by copying the &rest (or something like that?)
<didi>
stacksmith: Yeap.
<didi>
Weird stuff.
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<|3b|>
didi: that seems to be a bug, #sbcl is/was working on it earlier
<didi>
|3b|: Oh, cool!
<stacksmith>
didi: just out of idle curiosity - have you tried CCL?
<burzos>
Ok, I see the build failure report now.
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<didi>
stacksmith: I didn't. Someone said that CCL limits it to 60 k IIRC.
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<stacksmith>
Could someone clarify: Bordeaux Threads api states: "Global bindings are shared between threads..." and yet *standard-output* is not usable inside a thread...
<shka_>
stacksmith: yup
<stacksmith>
Is it because *standard-output* is bound somewhere above?
<shka_>
i don't really know, but i noticed this as well
<|3b|>
it is probably usable, just not the same :)
<shka_>
but it matters not, you can bind standard-output yourself and it will work
<shka_>
that's what i do
<stacksmith>
shka_: what do you bind it to?
<|3b|>
and reasonably likely to have non-global bindings
<stacksmith>
or is it with?
<|3b|>
current value of the thread that started the new thread is frequently a reasonable default
<|3b|>
or if you want something specific, you can save that in a separate global
<stacksmith>
Have you tried *default-special-bindings* or the initial-bindings parameter in make-thread?
<|3b|>
i think bt:make-thread has an option to specify default bindings so you don't need to do it manually
<shka_>
and no, i don't know why it is like this, but multithreaded standard-output seems like a bad idea, so this may be design choice
<|3b|>
more that "dynamic scope" is a bit hard to define when there are multiple stacks involved
<shka_>
|3b|: it indeed does, but i never remember those :D
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<stacksmith>
I am just trying to make sense of the docs... I suspect that *standard-output* is bound by a let somewhere above and is therefore not a clean global...
<|3b|>
after (let ((*x* 1)) (make-thread ...)) that binding goes out of scope for calling thread, and make-thread exited, so reasonable to expect that binding to no longer exist
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<shka_>
stacksmith: global != dynamic
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<shka_>
sharing dynamic scoped variable between threads does not sound like a great idea
<|3b|>
and special maps well to thread-local
<stacksmith>
Could you explain the difference between dynamic-extent and special declarations ?
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<stacksmith>
crap, I have to run out for a bit...
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<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: dynamic-extent means, that you promise that variable won't escape from the function, so it may be allocated on a stack
<jackdaniel>
special variable is, well, special, something different
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<didi>
Weirdly, the name "dynamic-extent" invokes, in my mind, an image of a variable that has infinite scope.
<|3b|>
stacksmith: note that "dynamic-extent" is a specific declaration, while "dynamic extent" in prose is a slightly different thing
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<|3b|>
or maybe more general things is a better phrasing
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<|3b|>
"dynamic-extent" declaration applies to the /objects/ stored in a particular binding, while "dynamic extent" in general might apply to the binding itself
<|3b|>
so all bindings of a special variable have "dynamic extent" (which is the meaning of the "special" declaration), but are not generally restricted to containing /objects/ with a dynamic extent (the meaning of the "dynamic-extent" declaration)
* |3b|
isn't sure if that actually clarifies anything or not :p
<hjudt>
what can i do to completely delete a package? i have the problem that i deleted a package but when i try to reload it (ql:quickload :package), i get the error "The name xxxx does not designate any package. (Condition of type sb-kernel:simple-package-error)", backtrace starting with (sb-int:find-undeleted-package-or-lose "xxx")
<hjudt>
retries like clear-configuration-and-retry do not work
<|3b|>
first figure out if you actually mean package or system (ql loads systems)
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<hjudt>
sbcl writes package. i guess i mean system.
<hjudt>
but honestly i do not know
<hjudt>
but yes i try to load a system
<|3b|>
are you trying to delete files or a particular object in the lisp image?
<hjudt>
i have loaded the system before, i do not want to delete files, only the packages i created. but i guess i need to delete the "system" too?
<dlowe>
in lisp, a package is a bag of names, while a system is a set of build rules and source code
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<hjudt>
i simply wanted to get rid of the package and reload it freshly with ql.
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<hjudt>
so that all vars etc are completely lost
<|3b|>
probably easiest to just restart the lisp for that
<hjudt>
and functions and methods etc too of course
<|3b|>
though 'package' is probably the correct term
<hjudt>
no, because other things are running at the same time but in different "packages"
<hjudt>
reside in different packages
<Xach>
hjudt: there is no easy generic way to do that.
<|3b|>
yeah, restarting is less useful if you have state you want to maintain :/
<hjudt>
but what may be the problem in my case?
<hjudt>
it seemed to work once, but not the second time
<|3b|>
loading CL code can make arbitrary changes to the state of the lisp image, so hard in general to undo that loading
<|3b|>
you might try forcing reloading of (some of) the code
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<hjudt>
when i e.g. rename or delete a function or symbol, i usually can use fmakunbound/makunbound to get rid of the symbol. that works.
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<hjudt>
i just don't want to do that manually for cleaning up, it is tedious. i thought deleting packages and reloading the system might solve it quickly.
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<|3b|>
yeah, that should more or less work
<hjudt>
i also entered a few statements at the repl to clean up the history, in case it is not garbage collected.
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<|3b|>
(it isn't 100%, since you will probably end up with various references to the old stuff, for example methods on generic functions from other packages specialized on classes from the 'deleted package')
<hjudt>
ok, that could be the case. i have three packages in my system, which use each other.
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<|3b|>
is the code publicly visible anywhere?
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<ym>
Why there is an ability to return multiple values if I cannot directly pass them as function arguments?
<Bike>
you can
<Bike>
multiple value call
<ecraven>
scheme has call-with-values
<ym>
That's not what I mean telling "directly".
<|3b|>
because they are useful even without that ability
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<|3b|>
(probably more useful than with)
<hjudt>
|3b|: at the moment no. i am unsure i could disclose it and most of it wouldn't be useful for anyone else.
<ym>
What for example?
* |3b|
expects (+ 1 (floor 7 2)) being interpreted as (+ 1 3 1) instead of (+ 1 3) would be annoying
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<ym>
(car (floor 7 2)) would work more clear.
<|3b|>
and having to write (+ 1 (values (floor 7 2))) to just pass the primary value would be worse than having to do multiple-value-call on the rare occasions of actually wanting to add the remainder too for some reason
<ym>
What?
<dlowe>
real compilers notice when floor and mod are being used on the same values
<|3b|>
many functions that return multiple values are used mostly for the primary value, and only a few uses need the extra values
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<|3b|>
it seems wasteful having to wrap all of the common case in (values) to get rid of the extra return values, just to simplify the few cases where you want the extra values /and/ want to pass them as adjacent arguments of some function
<sjl>
gethash is one example
<ym>
So returning multiple variables is another kludge made to avoid car?
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<ym>
I'm telling about lists vs multiple values.
<|3b|>
well CAR implies an allocation on the heap
<sjl>
ym: the values aren't returned as a list -- they're returned directly. So you don't need to allocate memory
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<ym>
Aha.
<sjl>
Having to allocate a fresh cons cell every time you looked up a value in a hash table would be annoying
<ym>
Isn't this is the work of compiler - to optimize code?
<ym>
But, never mind. I got the point. Thanks.
<|3b|>
also consider places where you want to pass a function
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<|3b|>
having to pass (lambda (&rest foo) (car (apply 'some-function foo))) instead of just 'some-function would be rather annoying
<ym>
Still I'd prefer to shift that responsibility on compiler.
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<|3b|>
(along with remembering which functions return extra values that you never use)
<|3b|>
the responsibility to remember that gethash returns extra values, then wrap it in a lambda to call car on it when you want to pass it to something that only wants a single non-list value returned?
<|3b|>
that seems a bit beyond compiler work
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<ym>
Wrapping in lambda to get only needed value from list is work of programmer, optimizing the code - work of compiler.
<ym>
Can't get why that's annoying.
<|3b|>
right, my point is that even if the compiler could optimize it, the code would be annoying and error prone
<ym>
Bad programmer will make annoying and error prone code from whatever language gives.
<ym>
But this is a matter of taste, I think.
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<|3b|>
well, write (values (floor a b)) instead of just (floor a b) then :)
<ym>
I don't ask what to do, I just curious why that feature is in standard.
<ym>
And I got the point. Thanks again.
<|3b|>
because it is useful (and/or because it was in older lisps that were being standardized)
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<didi>
Because of a discussion earlier, TIL (funcall (let ((*x* 42)) (declare (special *x*)) (lambda () *x*))) => UNBOUND-VARIABLE