<didi>
Wonder: Why isn't the syntax of `let' the same of `setf'? i.e. (let (a a-value b b-value) ...)
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
didi: clpjure does that, it's a bit annoying because it's more difficult to delete a binding/value pair
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<didi>
fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. in evil-mode, I just hit da) and a binding goes away
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<didi>
I see.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I have actually experimented with writing a wrapper macro for setf that looks like (setf* (a a-value) (b b-value))
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<didi>
fiddlerwoaroof: What did you find?
<Bike>
i don't think there's much particular reason either way. of course, if you do write a let like that it's short for ((a nil) (a-value nil) (b nil) (b-value nil))
<didi>
Bike: Ah, good point.
<didi>
Maybe that's a reason.
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<Bike>
i would guess just historical inertia really
<didi>
oic
<fiddlerwoaroof>
didi: it's nice, but I'm always hesitant to introduce new things for such a trivial reason
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<didi>
fiddlerwoaroof: Right.
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<Zhivago>
I think the savings with setf are minimal -- with let it makes more sense since it would otherwise introduce one scope per variable.
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<borei1>
hi all
<borei1>
question about setf
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<borei1>
to define orphographic projection matrix i need to supply 2 arguments r-min and r-max, i created the following generic function
<|3b|>
well, that part won't work, at best you could do (setf ... (values (...) (...))
<|3b|>
and i think you have to use the complicated SETF stuff rather than just a setf function
<|3b|>
and it would be semantically rather odd either way
<borei1>
yes it's user defined
<borei1>
combining vectors into the list - would it be "proper" solution ?
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* |3b|
would just expect (setf some-place (make-ortho-matrix a b))
<|3b|>
would (orpho projection-matrix) return rmin and rmax? (and is "orpho" spelling from some other language? haven't seen that before)
<|3b|>
if not, i wouldn't expect (setf orpho) to accept rmin+rmax, regardless of how you combine them
<borei1>
orpho is from "orthographic"
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* |3b|
assumed it was from "orphographic" as used above, just not sure if that is "orthographic" in some other language or just a typo :)
<borei1>
no, no typo
<borei1>
ok
<borei1>
but for example scale operation, does it looks "lisp" way ? or i invented the wheel
<borei1>
(setf (scale model-veiew-matrix) (vector sx sy sz 1.0))
<borei1>
?
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<|3b|>
what would (scale model-veiew-matrix) return?
<borei1>
it will assign sx sy sz to main matrix diag
<|3b|>
no, without SETF
<|3b|>
and also, that sounds wrong unless it is an identity matrix
<borei1>
currently nothing, but will be vector
<borei1>
not neccessary wrong
<borei1>
model-view-matrix is square 4x4 matrix
<|3b|>
right
<|3b|>
and unless it is identity or pure scale, just setting the diagonal is an odd thing to do
<borei1>
why ?
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<|3b|>
if you have (0 0 1 0, 0 1 0 0, 1 0 0 0, 0 0 0 1) and set the diagonal, you get something like (2 0 1 0, 0 2 0 0, 1 0 1 0, 0 0 0 1), when you probably wanted (0 0 2 0, 0 2 0 0, 2 0 0 0, 0 0 0 1)
<|3b|>
when you want to do is multiply by (2 0 0 0, 0 2 0 0, 0 0 2 0, 0 0 0 1), which will give you the 2nd result rather than just setting the diagonal
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<|3b|>
and will also rotate the axes correctly, scale translations, etc as expected depending on which order you multiply
<borei1>
oh, you mean if matrix identity befor any operation
<borei1>
i think it's end user responsibility
<borei1>
i have reset-to-identity method
<borei1>
technically model-view-matrix can have all -in-one
<borei1>
scale, translate and rotate
<|3b|>
right, i would expect it to usually have concatenation of a bunch of rotation and translation (and possibly scale)
<|3b|>
so having an operation that doesn't work in that case seems less useful
<borei1>
they are all independent
<|3b|>
right, if you multiply whole matrices
<|3b|>
if you just change parts of a matrix, you can't compose them
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<|3b|>
if your model-view transform is "scale 2" "move x +1" "scale 3" "move y +2" "rotate 30deg" "scale x 4", you can't use your (setf scale) for anything but the first one
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<borei1>
i see what you mean
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<|3b|>
so instead you would just have (make-scale-matrix sx sy sz) and multiply that by mv matrix
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<borei1>
there can be different approaches to do it
<|3b|>
or possibly (scale-matrix m sx sy sz) if you want to optimize it a bit and modify the matrix in place, but that would still be doing more than just setting the diagonal, it would have to do a bunch of multiplies and adds internally, just optimized for the elements it knows are 0 in the scale matrix
<borei1>
yeah, they need to accumulate values, depeneding on operation
* |3b|
would just use the generic version though, unless you are writing a ray-tracer or other software renderer where you are doing a /lot/ of specialized operations with known matrices
<|3b|>
or maybe if you are doing a lot of animation
* |3b|
tends to try to move things like that to GPU though
<borei1>
yep
<borei1>
all that operation basically needed for user interaction only
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<borei1>
once matrix are defined they will be pushed to shader unifor and will continue to live there
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<borei1>
but definetely i got some ideas after discussion - i completely missed sequential operations
<|3b|>
yeah, view tends to change per frame but also isn't very complicated to build, so not worth optimizing
<borei1>
and seems like interface need to be adjusted in more "lisp style" way
<borei1>
cool !
<|3b|>
might also look at sb-cga and various other game/graphics math libs and see what they do
<beach>
borei1: Are you French?
* beach
noticed the space before the `!', but maybe other languages use that too.
<_death>
cool.. parachute lacks support for package-inferred-system style test suite, but I'm just going to stuff all the tests in one file so it's ok.. also, does it have a reporter that just displays the tests and not every test form?
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<Shinmera>
It doesn't have a reporter like that, no
<Shinmera>
Should be easy to do though, hold on
<_death>
yeah, seems easy enough
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<Shinmera>
Or you could specialise on value-result and do nothing. I think all of the standard test forms emit subclasses of value-result.
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<Shinmera>
_death: What would "package-inferred-system style test suites" look like?
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<_death>
Shinmera: I guess a foo-test system that depends on, say, foo/tests/all, and there's a file all.lisp in foo/tests that defpackages foo/tests/all and uses foo/tests/a foo/tests/b etc.. which in turn have corresponding files and packages and contain the define-test forms
<Shinmera>
Hmm
<Shinmera>
I'd like to add that, but I'll have to think on how exactly to do it.
<_death>
for now a single file is sufficient, and I define multiple suites in it
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<_death>
what about multiple values?
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<Shinmera>
What about them?
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<_death>
suppose I want to check that (foo) results in 2, 3.. do I need to use multiple-value-list? or write a macro that expands to that?
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<Shinmera>
Well, often each value will have a different type, and thus likely a different comparator, so it doesn't make much sense for IS to allow specifying multiple values to compare against.
<Shinmera>
I could see value in something like (is-values form test-1 value-1 test-2 value-2 ..) though.
<Shinmera>
Hmm
<Shinmera>
err *comparator-1 comparator-2
<_death>
can imagine (is (eql eql) (42 42) (foo))
<Shinmera>
That makes my skin crawl
<_death>
but it's a bit funny ;)
<Shinmera>
For now you'll have to either multiple-value-bind around the test forms (which loses the form in the report), or a multiple-value-list, yeah.
<Shinmera>
Or actually
<Shinmera>
better than that, nth-value
<Shinmera>
and multiple repeat calls of the test form.
<Shinmera>
I'll think about something, though.
<_death>
hmm, not sure it's better.. depends on what you want to emphasize in the test
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<_death>
looks a bit weird.. there is a mismatch between the form (which returns 3 values) and the report
<Shinmera>
Which is?
<_death>
for example you'd expect (values 0 "0" 'c) to return 0 as the first value, but the report claims it's "0"
<Shinmera>
That's the 0th value
<_death>
1st = first
<Shinmera>
we're indexing by 0 though.
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<Shinmera>
(nth-value 1 (values 1 2)) ; => 2
<_death>
english is 1-based though
<Shinmera>
Can you see how both are confusing, though?
<Shinmera>
I guess if I just write "the test form .. value x is .." that would be fine if it were 0 indexed.
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<_death>
the is-values syntax is also a departure from the rest of the test operators
<Shinmera>
What would you suggest instead? I'd rather not separately group things into an extra list.
<schweers>
I need to write some code in order to provide a C interface to some C++ code. Do I have to compile is separately as a shared library and place it somewhere where CFFI can find it (or tell CFFI where to find it), or can I simply tell asdf where to find the code and have asdf and cffi compile and load it?
<_death>
my ARE operator combines the comparator/value, although it should likely evaluate the latter.. (are ((= 2) (equal "1") (= 0)) (values 0 "0" 'c))
<Shinmera>
Yeah, I don't know if I like that.
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<schweers>
i.e. can I bake the resulting code directly into the image?
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<Shinmera>
shared libraries are managed by your OS. you cannot "bake" them into the image.
<schweers>
I know; I’m asking if I can avoid creating a shared library in the first place
<shka_>
i think you can do it with ECL
<schweers>
how that I’ve asked, I realized I was wrong
<shka_>
but JUST ecl
<Shinmera>
SBCL has some support for static linking of libraries.
<Shinmera>
But don't ask me how to do it.
<_death>
Shinmera: could just use (= 2 equal "1" = 0) .. then it's similar to your is-values except the expectations come first.. but I find the grouping of each pair visually useful
<_rumbler31>
well, I've been thinking of a few functions to store the shared libs you want to ship as octet vectors, then unpack them and explicitly cffi load them
<schweers>
ugh, possible, but seems yucky
<schweers>
at least for me
<schweers>
anyway, thanks. I guess I’ll just bite the bullet and create and deploy a shared library then.
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<Shinmera>
_death: The rationale behind the ordering in the other operators is that it should feel similar to just (comparison expect value). For multiple values that obviously makes no sense. The idea behind is-values is to make it look more like multiple-value-bind, so I guess (is-values value (comp expected) ..) would be most fitting.
<_rumbler31>
schweers: I think that's the easier path than trying to statically link some code with any given image
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<schweers>
I’m asking myself what happens if I load a shared library and then dump an image. That shared library is then /not/ embedded in the image, right? Or at least not on every implementation.
<_death>
Shinmera: I see
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<Shinmera>
schweers: It is not.
<Shinmera>
schweers: You need to unload shared libraries and reload them on boot.
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell schweers about deploy
<Colleen>
schweers: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, about self, set, say, mop, get, logout, grant, block, award,
<Shinmera>
You can also write (is-values .. (= 0 value-0)) if you want. Or anything else as the third argument.
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<Shinmera>
_death: Should be live with b971704
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<_death>
Shinmera: looks good.. instead of ~D~A you can use ~:R to display first/second/... though a bit more verbose
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<Shinmera>
Yeah I know about that, but I didn't want it to get that long.
<_death>
Shinmera: isnt-values has a copy-paste error in :expression ;)
<Shinmera>
Whoops-- thanks!
* Shinmera
thinks he would like a reviewer more often
<_death>
funny that testing frameworks don't usually have.. tests
<Shinmera>
Well, I'd be open to have them
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<Shinmera>
I suppose they don't exist for most because the framework is just a means to an end (I gotta write tests for this other thing)
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<Bike>
testing a test framework with itself is clearly an undefinability theorem violation :p
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<republican_devil>
can lisp web apps easily scale horizontally?
<republican_devil>
or does the complexity favor 1 big box kinda apps?
<pjb>
if you rotate the planet 90 degree, yes.
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<republican_devil>
can you reduce problems with logic liek prolog does in lisp? thus saving a lot fo work?
<pjb>
yes
<republican_devil>
does that relate to sets?
<dlowe>
horizontal scaling is mostly language agnostic
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<republican_devil>
I mean if I say z means (this list of 100 things) and y means (this other 100 things) then instead of check ing for 200 things, I can check for 2...
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<republican_devil>
I can kinda see that in my minds eye
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<republican_devil>
so any question of php vs lisp is yes lisp does fine....and is a much smarter language?
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<pjb>
yesU
<republican_devil>
I just have quite a few boosk before I nuderstand the basics of lisp
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<Shinmera>
Oh hey that nick did seem familiar. I guess now I know why.
<Xach>
Remarkable history.
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<schweers>
what was that about?
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<Shinmera>
gavino is a recurring troll that comes back every few months / every year.
<beach>
schweers: Gavino is a recurring pest.
<Xach>
The questions are always similar. Can lisp scale. is lisp better than <some other language. Can I use Lisp for web apps.
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<Xach>
This goes back well over 10 years
<schweers>
wtf?
<jackdaniel>
not knowing him are perks of not using usenet (I'm one of the happy non-users ;)
<schweers>
must be a proper weirdo then
<surrounder>
in more communities
<surrounder>
think I recognize the nick from slackware
<surrounder>
proper troll
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: He's been here often enough too :/
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<jackdaniel>
apparently I didn't notice
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<jackdaniel>
btw, nice demo with the presentation (despite the fact that I'm allergic to word "neat")
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<beach>
jackdaniel: Presumably the word is OK if used with its standard meaning, yes?
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<random-nick>
Xach: what's the point? wasting people's time? or does he think that lisp is bad at web and wants to troll by pointing that out?
<Shinmera>
What's wrong with "neat"
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<_death>
Shinmera: thanks btw
<Xach>
random-nick: I don't know. It is not just lisp. I suspect some kind of illness or disorder, actually. That doesn't make it much more pleasant to see.
<Shinmera>
_death: Thanks for the feedback!
<jackdaniel>
Shinmera: I hear it way too often on lisp-related communication channels, it is watered down from any meaning for me now
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: Okey. I mean, I don't think I used the word anywhere in the demo except in a sarcastic context on the initial cube slide.
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<jackdaniel>
sure, allergic means: even small doze is annoying ;)
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<jackdaniel>
beach: words are neither good or bad, but I agree that correct use is much less unpleasant
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<beach>
jackdaniel: I know how you feel. I prefer to see "cool" used to refer to temperature, for instance.
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<_death>
vagueness/"downwatering"/fuzziness/etc. serve a useful function
<Shinmera>
Youse people and y'alls ideas 'bout "correct" language
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<beach>
Shinmera: Notice that I personally did not use the word "correct".
<Shinmera>
beach: I did note that :)
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<beach>
Thanks :)
<parjanya>
that rejection of new usages tend to be useful, otherwise language would change way too fast, and in different ways according to place etc
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<Shinmera>
language will change whether you want it to or not
<Shinmera>
which is opposite to CL, which won't change whether you want it to or not :^)
<Xach>
Yes! Long live stasis!
<parjanya>
; )) Sanskrit doesn’t change since Pāṇini’s specification... hah
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<onion>
biblical hebrew
<jackdaniel>
languages change, but it's not that we have no influence on their evolution. it remotely reminds privacy disputes: they know everything then why do you care? ;-)
<jackdaniel>
s/everything/everything anyway/
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* _death
invokes heraclitus.. there are no languages
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<beach>
I recommend Steven Pinker's "A sense of style". It is one of the few non-prescriptive books about the English language.
* Shinmera
invokes solipsism, there is nobody else.
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<beach>
Plus, he correctly identifies the "problem" as one of communication. So, he is not a defender of pure descriptive grammar ideas. Essentially, if you upset the intended receiver by using certain constructs, then the message won't get across as easily.
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<_death>
I can see gavino 2.0 asking why lisp isn't considered neat
<parjanya>
it’s too cool for that : o )
<beach>
Good one.
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<parjanya>
beach: I like that book. I struggle a little, though, to guess the reader’s sensibilities. People have invented lots and lots of shibboleths, and different people know different sets of them
<beach>
Very true.
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<parjanya>
the most absurd one I remember is that some people avoid saying "como" ‘as’ in Portuguese, because it’s homophone of the verb ‘to eat’ that can be used in a sexual sense, so any comparison might sound obscene to them [rolling eyes]
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<beach>
Heh, you could also read Pinker's book "The stuff of thought". there is an entire chapter in there about unacceptable words in different languages.
<beach>
The chapter also exists as a separate booklet. Something like "the seven words you can't say on television".
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<schweers>
didn’t Carlin coin those? or at least claim to have done so
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<_death>
Shinmera: btw I also noticed some weirdness in the parachute docs.. it has a "See GEQ" and the link to GEQ is broken
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<Shinmera>
Ah, beacuse GEQ isn't exported.
<Shinmera>
Right, I'll see what I can do. Sometimes the references point to things that shouldn't be exported, for use by people that dive deeper, I suppose.
<Shinmera>
But a NIL hyperlink is definitely bad
<_death>
there are a few other issues.. would you like me to privmsg
<Shinmera>
If people mind it in here, sure. Could also write to #shirakumo.
<SaganMan>
Good Morning peeps
* beach
feels excluded.
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<Bike>
good relatively brief period before universal heat death, beeps
* Pierpa
wonders why the Pinker booklet costs significantly less from amazon.it vs .fr. Hmmm...
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<Pierpa>
Usually there's no difference in eboks
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<beach>
"What the market can bear"
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<Pierpa>
Yeah, but never noticed any difference in kindle books from A. in the euro zone
<Pierpa>
And even outside the euro, usually they just apply the current exchange rate
<beach>
Maybe because they don't have to be delivered?
<beach>
So you can easily buy them from anywhere?
<Pierpa>
It's not easy, actually
<beach>
Just guessing of course.
<beach>
Oh, OK.
<Pierpa>
Kindle books can be bought only from the Amazon of the country where one is registered
<Pierpa>
One can change it, but it is a hassle
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
Never thought of buying a Kindle, so I don't know how it works.
<pjb>
all I know is that Amazon can decide to erase your books on the kindle…
<Pierpa>
No need to buy the hardware to buy them. There are readers for many hardware platforms
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<pjb>
I prefer txt or pdf from the Project Gutenberg.
<Pierpa>
Then try to convince Pinker
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<SaganMan>
I always prefer books in paper
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<beach>
If I could figure out how to install Linux on my Nexus 10, I would often prefer it, because books are much heavier. At least the ones I read.
<dlowe>
you know kindles are hackable, right? they're great little devices.
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<Shinmera>
Kindles are good because the screen is like paper.
<Lycurgus>
and that Android is already linux
<Shinmera>
A phone does not compare
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<Pierpa>
Why hack them? There are android tablets at the same price. The eink display is terrible for a general purpose device
<phoe>
But it's amazing for a book reader.
<Shinmera>
Anyway, to bring this back on topic, do we have any libraries to do mobi/epub?
<Pierpa>
Yes. For reading text is the best I have seen
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<phoe>
Shinmera: nothing that I know of. You could interface with calibre perhaps.
<dlowe>
Shinmera: I made some stuff a while ago to put together an epub, but it's not really in library form
<dlowe>
I don't know anything about mobi.
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<doesthiswork>
beach: "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language" is a good non-prescriptive book on english, I only read the first 250 pages though, so I've barely started it.
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<_death>
English is a nonprescriptive take on German ;)
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<Bike>
german is a nonprescriptive take on proto indo european
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<ski>
minion: chat
<minion>
Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``chat''.
<ski>
minion: chant
<minion>
MORE FLEXIBLE
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