<pjb>
energizer: on the other hand: (let ((*package* (find-package "MY-NULL"))) (list (eval (read-from-string "'()")) (eval (read-from-string "()")))) --> (nil nil)
<stacksmith>
Nil is special: it's kind of like a keyword - a subtype of symbol that evaluates to itself. It is also considered a list with 0 items (listp nil) => t
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<pjb>
energizer: but in this case, it depends on *readtable* where, the reader macros for ' and ( are defined.
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<pjb>
energizer: you could change those reader macro to read something else than CL:QUOTE and CL:NIL.
<energizer>
ok
<stacksmith>
Nil is a list, but it is not a cons: (consp nil) => nil
<energizer>
Shinmera: what's a form?
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<stacksmith>
form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. 2. a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object. 3. (for an operator, as in ``<<operator>> form'') a compound form having that operator as its first element. ``A quote form is a constant form.''
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<stacksmith>
energizer: try #clnoobs - it's a better place for basic questions about CL.
<energizer>
thanks
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<stylewarning>
pierpa: id like to find a way to recreate latex source
<stylewarning>
I’m the one who helped get copyright reverted, and it looks like elsevier might have lost the source
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<pierpa>
aaaargh!
<pierpa>
but thank you for helping this!
<pierpa>
stylewarning: I suppose you already asked PN?
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<varjag>
trying out dexador
<varjag>
looks nice so far
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<phoe>
I am still amazed by good modular code
<Shinmera>
Like what?
<phoe>
How fun it is to edit parts of it and still break nothing.
<phoe>
Like I wrote some code that I consider modular and with well defined protocols.
<phoe>
And I just decided to reimplement one thing while keeping its interface.
<phoe>
Boom, worked without a single error.
<phoe>
It's really amazing.
<phoe>
I poke my nose into code that I haven't touched for months and I can quickly remember how it works and edit it.
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<milanj>
varjag, dexador connection cache looks suspicious to me (threads wise)
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<dxtr>
So what's the bordeaux-threads equivalent of sb-thread:with-mutex?
<dxtr>
with-lock-held?
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<jackdaniel>
yes
<Xach>
scymtym: so there is a significant slowdown in 1.4.5-prerelease
<Xach>
scymtym: it takes 1.5 times longer than 1.4.4. i am looking at individual project timings now.
<scymtym_>
Xach: interesting, thanks. could we continue this conversation in #sbcl so we won't have to repeat everything for the others?
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<dxtr>
Possible stupid question: Has there been any community efforts to create a new, "cleaned up", lisp specification? Seeing as a lot of stuff is marked as "deprecated" and things like that
<dxtr>
I don't specifically mean to create a new "web 2.0 web-scale all-the-buzzwords" thing -- but rather to clean up the specification and rationalize things
<jackdaniel>
clojure is a language designed by a disappointed Common Lisper
<jackdaniel>
eulisp is a language designed to provide modern Lisp somewhere between Scheme and CL
<scymtym_>
beach has a project aiming at producing a corrected and more precise but compatible specification for common lisp
<jackdaniel>
racket is scheme descendant with many goodies
<jackdaniel>
there are many compatibility layer projects which bring various implementations together: bordeaux-threads, closer-mop, trivial-gray-streams, usocket
<dxtr>
Yeah I specifically meant common lisp
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<jackdaniel>
there were probably more efforts aiming at the cleansing goals
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<dxtr>
right
<varjag>
milanj: haven't looked in the cache part
<varjag>
but i like how its error conditions are restartable
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<milanj>
I needed http client with connection cache
<milanj>
so I glance over code
<milanj>
I don't think it's safe to set/get in hash-map without lock (even if you are using (current-thread) as key)
<Shinmera>
It can be if the implementation provides you with a safe hash table.
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<milanj>
that is true
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<Shinmera>
It's unfortunate that it's not possible to write a wrapper library to provide portable thread-safe hash tables (without shadowing CL).
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<shka>
well, you can always use non-standard hashtable instead..
<shka>
but since BT does not offer atomic operations, such hashtable may have bizmo performance unless it uses atomics from SBCL directly
<Bike>
can you even do a hash table with atomics rather than locks?
<shka>
yes
<Bike>
i think sbcl's safe hash tables just use locks, is the thing
<jackdaniel>
I've read a paper about lock-less implementation
<shka>
or you can have lock-less hashing trie like ctrie
<shka>
or just lock-less skip list
<jackdaniel>
ecl's safe hash tables do the same (uses locks), but if I had a shared ht between threads I'd carefully lock code blocks instead
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<dxtr>
Xach: Have you seen issues where zs3 just times out when putting data?
<dxtr>
I'm trying to run a thing I made on Solaris
<dxtr>
Why Solaris? Because I hate myself :)
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<beach>
dxtr: It is not very ambitious, and I think the low ambition is required in order for it to have any chance of success.
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<shka>
quote of the day -> "It is not very ambitious, and I think the low ambition is required in order for it to have any chance of success."
<beach>
shka: I maintain that. I think something like cl21 is way too ambitious. Same thing with efforts to include many more features.
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<shka>
oh, i see your point
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<beach>
It has to be baby steps.
<shka>
but you put it in a very interesting way
<beach>
Thanks (I guess). :)
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<shka>
well, cleaning up is a good place to start
<shka>
if that works, i guess next step would be standardizing de facto standards
<beach>
Yes, that's the idea. But already by specifying lots of unspecified behavior, it means many more programs can be portable across implementations.
<beach>
The next step (after this one) could be something like specifying the exact meaning of type declarations at different safety levels. But that is already too ambitious for the first step.
<beach>
But I maintain that the goal of WSCL is much higher priority than including more features or modifying the syntax.
<jackdaniel>
actually I believe Lisp could be better with some cruft removed (not necessarily added), but happily creating new package with limited set of symbols is not something what would require intervention on the implementaiton level (vide ergolib)
<pjb>
I would think it'd be better to use our own sexp-based structure. This would allow for a more formal approach to generate the standard.
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<pjb>
It would also make it easier to write tools, such as to navigate cross references, (original paragraph), and to trace and reference things.
<dlowe>
I have a program whose goal is converting it to a sexp structure
<pjb>
All lispers know sexps; not all lispers know TeX or LaTeX…
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<jackdaniel>
well, most people know letters (probably all lispers!), let's use some syntax involving letters and they'll understand the semantics (promise)
<pfdietz>
The new feature I want to see become de facto standard in CL is package local nicknames.
<jackdaniel>
ecl will have it in 16.2.0 (already implemented), abcl has it and sbcl has it
<pfdietz>
Right. ccl and clisp need it.
<jackdaniel>
rme isn't against accepting pull request for it, so it is a matter of implementation
<jackdaniel>
don't know about clisp
<pfdietz>
While poking through ccl, I noticed ccl has a very nice coverage facility included, with rollback. I hacked COVER to do that, but it's nice to have something integrated with the compiler.
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<dxtr>
beach: Neat
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<beach>
dxtr: Thanks.
<dxtr>
Imma look at it
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<dxtr>
Also, Robert Strandh sounds very swedish :)
<beach>
That's what my passport says, but I am not Swedish for any practical purposes.
<dxtr>
Hehe
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<jmercouris>
Aha, the mystery is solved
<jmercouris>
I've been wondering for a very long time
<beach>
It is truly without any importance.
<jmercouris>
importance != interest
<beach>
It is not even interesting. :)
<dxtr>
It tickled my curiosity a little, though :)
<jmercouris>
I find it interesting, I hear people on IRC and I always try to imagine what they look like and what they speak like
<jmercouris>
I have these fuzzy images in my head for many people on this channel, as to how I imagine they are
<beach>
Type my name to the Google search engine and you will find out. It gives some Youtube videos of talks and such.
<jmercouris>
like when reading a book you come up with a face for a character, for me it is the same thing
<beach>
Yes, I have sounded American for the past 40 or so years.
<dxtr>
beach: To be fair if I google your name I get a whole lot of people with that name. 334 people to be precise :)
<beach>
I still fail to see how this is interesting.
<jmercouris>
You are behind the curtain, of course it isn't interesting to you!
<beach>
dxtr: And they all gave presentations at ILC2002? :)
* jackdaniel
also tries to figure out, what his accent/nationality has to do with lisp
<jmercouris>
It doesn't have to do with Lisp, but we are humans after all, and that is interesting
<beach>
jackdaniel: Thank you.
<jackdaniel>
like in: #lisp is not a very good channel for such discussion
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<jmercouris>
beach isn't in lispcafe
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: of course, so asking such question once is fine, but having prolonged discussion about that is not. apparently he is not interested in such chit-chat, otherwise he would be there ;)
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* jmercouris
wheeps gently
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<fe[nl]ix>
dxtr: more swedish than Olof Gustav Sjöberg-Lindqvist ?
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<jackdaniel>
fe[nl]ix: do you know when you'll find time to review changes proposed for bt?
<fe[nl]ix>
I'll try this weekend
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<jackdaniel>
OK, thank you.
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<makomo>
i have to agree with jmercouris, stuff like that is interesting to me too :-)
<makomo>
exactly like you said, trying to imagine what people look like, etc.
<makomo>
trying to figure out the "human component" in it all
<jmercouris>
yeah, we are more than just a group of lisp robots, we are a community of people, and I don't think it would hurt to explore that territory a little
<makomo>
i'm always interested in biographies of people whose work i use or find interesting
<makomo>
and always like to think about what that certain person was thinking during the period of time he was working on that project
<makomo>
and what his current whereabouts are, etc. :-)
<Xach>
A lisp conference is good for that.
<jmercouris>
As is a channel where people can communicate in real time
<Xach>
If you want to chat about personal stuff, go to another channel.
<jmercouris>
I have no problem adhering to the rules, but I would like to understand the justification
<makomo>
well probably because there are a lot more people listening to the personal stuff here
<Shinmera>
a lot of people don't care to hear chatter about things that are not on topic.
<Xach>
This is for discussion of Common Lisp, not discussion of people who use Common Lisp.
<makomo>
it's different in real life
<beach>
I think many people here would like to keep the discussion to the topic, and I am one of them.
<makomo>
and also what they said
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<beach>
And that is why I keep repeating that my personal life is irrelevant and uninteresting.
<jmercouris>
Xach: The language is not *just* the definition, it is also its userbase and the applications and domain spaces they work in
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<jmercouris>
without users, a language has no value
<Xach>
I am happy to talk about Common Lisp applications and the challenges faced by people trying to use Common Lisp.
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<Xach>
I do not want to talk about what time of day it is wherever you are on the planet, or what your weather is like, or whether you have exams coming up.
<jmercouris>
Then you would be also happy to talk about people, as the common lisp in their life does not exist in a singular bubble
<Lycurgus>
peoples should know there's ##lisp for the wider thing
<beach>
jmercouris: Stop it please. We already have an agreement about what is on topic here.
<Xach>
jmercouris: I am happy to talk about people in places other than #lisp.
* makomo
feels guilty since he mentioned he has an exam once
<jmercouris>
Ok, I concede :D, I still can't say I agree, but if everyone else does, so ist das
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* Lycurgus
jmercouris his tail tucked
<makomo>
but i guess a *bit* of chit-chat here and there is fine though? i.e. just a couple of lines and not a full-blown discussion?
<Shinmera>
People will tell you when to stop. You just have to have the courtesy to actually stop when asked to.
* Lycurgus
makomo when the walls fell
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<dim>
makomo: well trust people to tell you when you're off topic, and when you are, just say you're sorry and be silent for awhile… at least that's how I do it, apparently it kind of works ;-)
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<makomo>
yeah, agreed
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<pjb>
let's write short biographies and compete to see which one is less interesting.
<beach>
No longer 404, but it's a skeleton right now.
<makomo>
"An interactive application for manipulating PDF documents."
<makomo>
now this is something that sounds very nice and exciting
<makomo>
i've never understood why the pdf tooling is so poor :^(
<jmercouris>
Because PDF is a very complex format with a lot of legacy versions
<makomo>
well still. you would think that its popularity would take care of that
<beach>
makomo: I am guessing one reason is that they systematically choose programming languages that are not well suited for such programs.
<makomo>
there are a lot of tools but none of them do it completely
<Lycurgus>
also it's output isn't meant to be read by anything other than a device
<Lycurgus>
*its
<makomo>
each one misses something. also, it's pretty much a rule that they are rarely scriptable
<schweers>
beach: isn’t this kind of a recurring thing in this industry?
<makomo>
beach: idk. for example, ghostscript has a feature for adding new bookmarks (although it's not really easy or friendly to use)
<makomo>
but there's no way to pull out all of the bookmarks in the pdf
<makomo>
none!
<makomo>
for that i had to use qpdf which provides a small example tool called pdf-bookmarks
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<makomo>
i.e. it's not something that the main qpdf binary exposes
<jackdaniel>
for annotating pdfs I find xournal application very nice
<makomo>
so it's just a huge mess for some reason
<jackdaniel>
it adds a layer over pdf
<Xach>
pdf is a pretty simple format in many respects, if you disregard the javascript stuff that was added. cl-pdf is interesting for parsing and generating pdfs. but it is quite low-level.
<makomo>
then there's also pdftk or w/e it's called, but that is pretty much deprecated since it uses GCC's Java implementation which has been removed from GCC 7 and up
<makomo>
that tool was quite versatile but there you go, not easily available anymore (at least for me on Fedora)
<makomo>
i'd have to compile the whole GCC Java suite just to build it
<schweers>
makomo: really, they used the java frontend for GCC? Do they have plans on what to do, now that its been removed? It should run on the jvm, right?
<makomo>
you'll want to go to "PDFtk Server" which is actually a command-line version of the tool
<makomo>
"Pdftk 1.4x fails to build on gcc 3.3.5 due to missing libgcj features."
<makomo>
heh
<beach>
schweers: It is.
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<makomo>
Xach: i was looking at cl-pdf and cl-typesetting. have you ever used/evaluated cl-pdf?
<beach>
makomo: I did not mean to imply that when a good programming language is chosen, the application is automatically fantastic. I just meant to say that when a programming language is chosen that is not suitable, it is much harder to create features that might be somewhat complex to implement.
<schweers>
does learning and using {Mc,}CLIM spoil one’s character in a way similar to learing and using lisp?
<makomo>
beach: of course :-)
<makomo>
the interactivity that a lisp would provide would be a big bonus, but there isn't even a comprehensive library for editing pdfs in a non-lisp language
<beach>
schweers: It did for me. Though I never actually had the courage to write GUI applications using any other library.
<beach>
schweers: I started working on McCLIM because I couldn't see using an FFI-based GUI library for Gsharp.
<jmercouris>
You can program GUI applications interactively in CCL as well using Cocoa
<schweers>
I’ve never done much GUI. I did a little with borland C++ builder back in school and later java and swing once during my studies. Plus looking a little bit at gtk, but never really used it.
<schweers>
What I was getting at: is using CLIM that much different than using (say) gtk or Qt?
<beach>
jmercouris: And that does not qualify as FFI?
<schweers>
or, god forbid, GUI on windows? (what do they use nowadays, anyway?)
<makomo>
qt is pretty popular. i doubt anyone wants to use the win32 api directly :-D
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<jasom>
makomo: I use mupdf bindings for modifications, but for reading pdfs, I just add features to https://github.com/jasom/pdfparse when I need them
<schweers>
Nah, win32 seems to be really nasty. I’ve got a book on the subject, and still never really used it, because its really painful
<schweers>
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<jasom>
beach: what primitives are needed for a McCLIM port, out of curiousity?
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<schweers>
eh .. with clim one can send a button into a stream?
<beach>
jasom: For porting McCLIM to something or for porting something to McCLIM?
<jasom>
makomo: it's generated from a data file IIRC
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<schweers>
I can’t yet imagine how that works or what its effect is
<beach>
jasom: You either need an X11 server or you need to write a backend for McCLIM.
<jasom>
beach: right, what primitives are needed for McCLIM; does it use native buttons/fields/&c. or does it draw them itself?
<beach>
jasom: The latter.
<beach>
jasom: So you just need to be able to draw pixels in a window.
<jasom>
ah, so porting it t osomething like IUP or tk wouldn't make much sense
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<beach>
jasom: CLIM was meant to work with native toolkits in addition to its own, but we never go around to doing that. It didn't make much sense.
<jmercouris>
beach: it does, but it is also interactive
<jackdaniel>
people say, that we need to get modern with McCLIM
<jackdaniel>
I say otherwise and hack ncurses backend for it (because it's fun ;-)
<jackdaniel>
that said sdl backend is one of long-term goals
<beach>
jackdaniel: I always shiver when I hear the word "modern".
<jackdaniel>
for portability
<jmercouris>
So for you it is more like a hobby then?
<jackdaniel>
beach: imagine I have the same for word "neat" ;-)
<dim>
what features do you want to remove to make it modern enough? ;-)
<Lycurgus>
js is tEh modern
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: no, I work on things which I enjoy proffesionally
<beach>
dim: Heh!
<jasom>
that's right, CLIM isn't modern until there is an electron backend ;-)
<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: "professionally" as in a "profession" as in recieving money, I think you'll have a hard business case selling ncurses software in 2018
<jackdaniel>
professionally*
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: you'd be suprised how many tui applications are in use today
<jmercouris>
I wouldn't, but I'd definitely be surprised at how many were funded as new projects in 2018
<jackdaniel>
that said what I mean: I hack on things which are interesting to me and it happens that some of them let me sustain myself
<jasom>
jmercouris: there are other ways to make money with software besides selling it (we have in-house stuff with a curses UI for example, but the people who wrote it were clearly doing so professionally)
<beach>
jmercouris: I think jackdaniel, unlike most other computing professionals, actually spends a lot of time learning the tools and techniques that can profit his core business. Strange, huh?
<schweers>
I guess something curses like makes sense for some special applications, like for a cashier, or in a doctors office
<jmercouris>
no doubt he invests in himself and his tools, but that does not make a business case for an ncurses backend
<jasom>
schweers: in this case it's for headless machines that are accessed over ssh
<jmercouris>
forward x over ssh, problem solved
<schweers>
that too, obviously
<schweers>
ugh!
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<jasom>
jmercouris: these days vnc is far better than x over ssh
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<Xach>
makomo: I have used cl-pdf quite a bit for various things. i enjoy it and it is useful but it does require building higher-level abstractions yourself if you need them.
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: either way I'm not doing it as a hobby - I'm working on CL full time and ncurses backend is made in that
<jasom>
Xach: cl-pdf loads the entire object stream into memory though, and in a rather inefficient manner. The pdf I wrote my parser for needed more than 4GB of heap to open in cl-pdf
<jmercouris>
I'm not trying to demean the project, but it is important to recognize that it appears very much still in the early stages, and is a hobby project
<jackdaniel>
my hobby are books, anime and many other things ;)
<jmercouris>
when it matures a little more, and you can start selling software you build with it, then you may say that you work on it professionally
<Xach>
jasom: yeah. there are definitely limitations. i was using it to automate pdf form filling.
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<Xach>
jasom: the forms were usually a page or two so in-memory wasn't a problem (it was more of an advantage when poking around)
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<makomo>
Xach: hm i see
<jackdaniel>
as I said: working on something professionally doesn't mean necessarily selling it. I could mention reputation which directly impacts your chances, experience which directly impacts your chance of succesful delivery and other things. but it is offtopic I suppose
<jasom>
Xach: yeah for 2 page PDFs cl-pdf is great
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: There are tangential benefits for yourself as a professional, but not for the future of the project as a resource in a professional development network
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<Xach>
makomo: i haven't tried cl-typesetting, but marc battyani always seemed to have really nice examples of its use.
<jackdaniel>
I don't understand the last sentence, but there is no need to elaborate, I've said everything I wanted to say ;)
<jmercouris>
An open source project is a basis for companies to work in a type of "open innovation network", several companies contribute to a core technology and leverage it to build their products. The value of an ncurses backend to building this network value for McClim is most likely very low, it basically only benefits yourself
<jmercouris>
that is the meaning of the last sentence
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<jackdaniel>
huh, finally back on topic. I hope it will benefit community
<jackdaniel>
I've written one tutorial on cl-charms already
<jackdaniel>
and plan to write documentation on writing backends based on that
<jackdaniel>
also, having such degenerated backend will benefit testing some hard-to-notice corner cases
<jackdaniel>
on normal rendering it's hard to find off-by-one pixel errors
<stacksmith>
jackdaniel: I am happy about the cl-charms backend - the x font rendering was hurting my eyes.
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<beach>
jackdaniel: How dare you work on something that you won't make money from directly and immediately. That is so un-modern of you.
<jackdaniel>
but when your smallest thing is a character, then they are easily noticable
<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: It'll benefit the community, as some lisp developer will want to use the backend for sure, it will not benefit the project in a professional sense, because most likely no company will comission a curses backend for their software, and thus you won't win more support or sponsorship for the development of mcclim for the purposes of utilizing the curses backend
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<jackdaniel>
I think we don't have a common understanding of being professional
<Shinmera>
Professiona.L "engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur.
<jmercouris>
beach: I work on plenty of projects that make no money, I'm not trying to shame someone for that, I don't think you're understanding me
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<jackdaniel>
↑ that's more like it (what Shinmera said)
<jmercouris>
We agree that you are a professional developer, but is everything you program something you program professionally?
<beach>
jmercouris: I think jackdaniel's business plan is also off topic.
<dim>
jackdaniel: you know (of) libcaca (coloured ascii-art) and its availability as a VLC backend?
<stacksmith>
God help us all. Let's stick to Lisp and not dispense business advice.
<jackdaniel>
dim: I know that mplayer can render on the console (with ascii)
<beach>
dim: Funny name. "caca" in French means "crap".
<dim>
I'm french ;-)
<_death>
jmercouris: many companies have internal tools, I can imagine some of them have a text UI for a variety of purposes
<jmercouris>
please guys, let's stay on topic
<jackdaniel>
fun stuff indeed. I've also written a checkers game when I was at university in ncurses (with C)
<beach>
dim: That's off topic. :)
<dim>
and the author of libcaca is french too (Sam Hocevar)
<dim>
hehe, ok
<dim>
sorry
<jmercouris>
we could accidentally enjoy ourselves on this channel
<jackdaniel>
when you have scaled down the font (to something really small) it actually rendered circles :)
<Shinmera>
jmercouris: At the expense of others that don't want to see off-topic bullshit. Now drop it.
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: tedious tediousness is tedious
<beach>
jmercouris: I don't know what you are on, but today you are definitely exaggerating.
<stacksmith>
Is there a moderator here?
<jmercouris>
I'm trying to point out that more often than not the "#ontopic" discussion is used to silent dissent than anything else
<beach>
jmercouris: You don't give up, do you?
<jmercouris>
I was done, until you prompted me
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<stacksmith>
Can anyone kick here?
<beach>
stacksmith: Several long-term participants have such privileges if that is what you mean.
<beach>
stacksmith: It is only used as a last resort.
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<jackdaniel>
stacksmith: I could, but it's the last resort for actual trolls
<stacksmith>
Well, that depends on how you define 'actual trolls'
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<beach>
stacksmith: That would be up to each privileged individual.
<beach>
They acquired these privileges because they wanted to and they are trusted.
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<_death>
few months ago I started writing Lisp bindings to... turbovision :D
<Shinmera>
_death: Yeesh.
<dim>
ignoring the group's rules and stuffing one own's wisdom into every bits of discussion, ignoring other participants altogether at best, but more often only what they say… we're damn near to a troll here, if you'd ask me
<_death>
but it wasn't fun enough to reach basic functionality, so postponed
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<dim>
so what about a turbovision backend for McCLIM and then an interactive development environment (editor, debugger, etc) all included there? ;-)
<_death>
Turbo Lisp
<dim>
sounds quite good, has to fit on a 320kB floppy disk tho
<pjb>
If you could write (setf (fdefinition 'close) (complement #'open))
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<phoe>
sadly not that easy
<phoe>
#'complement only works for predicates
<warweasle>
phoe: You look very nice today!
<Bike>
clearly we need relative-complement, so as to do (complement #'open-stream-p #'streamp)
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<phoe>
warweasle: *blush*
<warweasle>
phoe: t
<phoe>
(defvar *blush* t)
<_death>
your dwim changed complement to compliment
<phoe>
_death: well, it did what warweasle meant
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<aeth>
hmm, comparing (setf (fdefinition 'nonzero-p) (complement #'zerop)) and (setf (fdefinition 'nonzero-p-2) (lambda (x) (not (zerop x)))) the complement approach adds a *lot* of overhead to SBCL. Maybe because a complement has (&rest arguments) as its lambda list
<warweasle>
I never realized they were spelled differently.
<phoe>
aeth: I guess so, yes
<aeth>
Oh, also zerop can be inlined, but #'zerop in complement won't be.
<aeth>
So something like zerop is probably the worst case performance difference
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<phoe>
Yep, because you no longer do an assembly comparison, and instead you need to do a full funcall.
<aeth>
Perhaps that's a use case for a define-complement-function macro. You can be much more efficient than complement if you know it at function definition time.
<aeth>
Is there a way to get the lambda list of a function?
<_death>
function-lambda-expression may be of help
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<aeth>
I think that's all you'd need for define-complement-function, then. Fetch the lambda list, use it to both create the new function's lambda list and call the original function, wrapped in not. Then it'd just be (define-complement-function nonzero-p #'zerop)
<aeth>
Perhaps with an optional inline keyword (defaulting to t?) since that's a good candidate for inlining: trivial, small disassembly (unless it's calling an inline function with huge disassembly, but then the problem is with *that* function), and never changing
<Shinmera>
Much easier to just defun with the rest and define a compiler macro that does the inlining.
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<phoe>
and also portable
<phoe>
as in, fully defined by the standard
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<_death>
once you have the lambda list, you still need to figure out how to pass the arguments
<Shinmera>
Indeed. Doing so while preserving defaults and passed-p is tricky (and requires run-time consing)
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<aeth>
The defaults part is easy. If it's (foobar x y &optional (foo 42)) you'd have to make your lambda list (x y &optional (foo 42)) and then call (not (foobar x y foo))
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<aeth>
So you'd explicitly handle all keywords/optionals, but with the default matching its default.
<aeth>
s/the default/the default in the new function matching the original function's default/
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<aeth>
(But it's no longer trivial to implement once you take defaults into account, even if it's still easy.)
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<phoe>
Shinmera: why runtime consing?
<phoe>
can't you stack-allocate all conses that you may need to create in such case?
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<Shinmera>
aeth: The lambda list you retrieve may not retain defaults.
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<Shinmera>
phoe: Because for instance for key word arguments you need to analyse which ones are not passed and construct a new arguments list based on that.
<phoe>
Shinmera: I think you can stack-allocate that.
<Shinmera>
CL makes no promise about stack allocation of any kind.
<phoe>
If you know the function lambda list at compile-time, you can figure out how many keyword arguments you have, and allocate this many conses on the stack.
<phoe>
Yep, but implementations are often smart enough to do it anyway.
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<_death>
there are also the issues of &allow-other-keys and :allow-other-keys, non-standard lambda keywords, congruence when considering generic functions..
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<_death>
and then there's redefinition..
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<stacksmith>
Assuming you are not interested in macros...
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<copec>
Totally arbitrary comment: I dig Salt configuration management, but with it wish it was based on CL
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