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<pfdietz>
sbcl.org is back
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<smokeink>
"How to get fontified, hyperlinked ANSI CL standard inside your GNU Emacs: http://users-phys.au.dk/harder/dpans.html" <- this link is dead, does anyone know a mirror ?
<drmeister>
Nested macros expand to the same result if you expand them outside in vs inside out - correct?
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<drmeister>
I guess it's not necessarily true - because a macrofunction can do whatever it wants to the forms that it is passed
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<pfdietz>
Right. Macro expansion is top-down, unless a macro dives in an manually macroexpands deep subforms first.
<pfdietz>
But to do that right involves knowing what subforms are actually forms
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<fouric>
Does anyone know anything about CI using Roswell and cl-prove?
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<fouric>
I'm trying to set up CI on GitLab. My project uses cl-sdl2. Running `~/.roswell/bin/run-prove monolith.asd monolith-test.asd` yields
<fouric>
Unhandled ASDF/FIND-COMPONENT:MISSING-COMPONENT in thread #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10005585B3}>: Component "sdl2" not found
<fouric>
...I would provide more information, but there's so *much* of it that I don't know where to start.
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<fouric>
...well, running run-prove multiple times eventually installs all of the systems and it succeeds...
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<phoe>
I am waking up. It is time for me to tend to the so-called real life today.
<beach>
Sorry to hear that. :)
<phoe>
I know that you can imagine how it feels. (:
<beach>
I can, yes.
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<phoe>
I will try to do it quickly and properly, so I can get back to parentheses.
<beach>
Good plan.
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<pjb>
Hire some secretary or buttler to tend to your so-called real life!
<phoe>
I shall, as soon as I'm rich enough.
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<fourier>
for that you need to abandon cl and start to learn java :)
<pjb>
Not necessarily. But it may be less progressive.
<phoe>
I already know Java.
<phoe>
That's how I want to get rich.
<fourier>
yep C# is also a way :)
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<jackdaniel>
it is the other way around
<jackdaniel>
to get rich you need to hire butler
<jackdaniel>
so you have time to get rich ;-)
<loke>
Hello JD
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<jackdaniel>
hey
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<aeth>
To get rich all you need to do is print your own currency.
<aeth>
(That would have been a joke 10 years ago.)
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<aeth>
Nothing stops you from making money with CL, you just have to do something where people don't care about the implementation language.
<aeth>
So that probably means no enterprise middleware.
<White_Flame>
or serve the few big-monied parties that do want lisp
<aeth>
Or use ABCL.
* beach
would like to see the job description of a "buttler".
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<White_Flame>
"What exactly do you do?" "I buttle, sir."
<Shinmera>
beach: Maybe a physician?
<beach>
Possibly.
<phoe>
I'm slowly warming other people around me to the idea of including an ABCL in our product.
<phoe>
I am still curious how far I can push the environment of a JBoss with Java Enterprise from inside an ABCL image.
<beach>
What is their reaction?
<phoe>
None yet. I'm very slow at the warming-up. (:
<phoe>
Right now they tolerate me writing and hacking Lisp in between work tasks, which is a step in a good direction.
<phoe>
I'm curious, because if I figure out a way to interactively call Java in a JEE environment, then I essentially get a REPL for free in our product.
<phoe>
It's a bit more complicated, because it's a cluster of several JBoss servers on different machines and not just a single JVM, but if I ever figure that out, then I'll essentially have material for a nice paper.
<phoe>
gosh, this starts being #lispcafe material with all the butts
<beach>
pjb: I was trying to be funny. Failed miserably. Sorry.
<pjb>
Only because I was oblivious of my mistake.
<beach>
Flyspell caught it.
<Shinmera>
pjb: I got the joke.
<Shinmera>
*beach
<pjb>
I avoid orthographic correctors, because they usually get it wrong. Also, there are often multiple valid orthographs (eg. American English vs. British English or variants in French).
<pjb>
Oh, and also because their substitutions are often way worse than simple orthographic errors.
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<jackdaniel>
pjb: "Yes, I noticed, butt too late." – fixed it for you ;-)
<TMA>
phoe: JEE is tricky because of all the nested classloaders isolating everything from everything else; the clojure folks made an awesome remote repl called nREPL for clojure. I am not sure, but it could probably be ported to ABCL so that the client need not be rewritten
<TMA>
phoe: but even then making the repl useful in a JEE environment is a challenge
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<scymtym>
fe[nl]ix: thank you
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<jmercouris>
how to reinstall quicklisp? can I simply delete ~/.quicklisp?
<jmercouris>
or is there a simpler way?
<Shinmera>
Yes, No
<jmercouris>
Shinmera: ok, thanks
<Shinmera>
Hard to get simpler than removing a directory, in my opinion
<jmercouris>
there are some things in my directory that I'd rather not have to recreate is all
<Shinmera>
Well what about it do you want to "reinstall"?
<Shinmera>
/Why/ do you want to reinstall?
<jmercouris>
I was playing around with sbcl yesterday, and I "installed" quicklisp in sbcl, and that has made some issues for CCL I believe
<Shinmera>
That doesn't sound right. Multiple implementations can use the same quicklisp directory.
<jmercouris>
well, I'm getting strange UIOP/asdf messages I wasn't getting before
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<jmercouris>
I'm not sure exactly why that is, possibly because I did a dist update while in sbcl, then went back to ccl
<pjb>
jmercouris: there are actually at least two circumstances when you load your system: 1- you load your system to compile and check it while developping and testing it. 2- you load your system to use it.
<pjb>
jmercouris: even in the second case, it may be useful to have warnings, because the developers may have loaded on some version of some implementation and found no errors and no warning, but then you're using it in a new version or another implementation, and those warning could matter a lot.
* Baggers
loves the warnings
<pjb>
jmercouris: if ArianeEspace engineers had had a warning about the Ariane3 module loaded into the Ariane5 system that used a different type of lateral acceleration, they would have saved a rocket and 2 satellites!
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<jackdaniel>
living on the edge, huh?
<jmercouris>
pjb: Right yeah, I don't have issues with warnings, it's just that on my own system at least, I'd hope that the warnings don't exist
<jmercouris>
aka I've developed it to "spec"
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<jmercouris>
phoe: yeah, that's another good one
<jmercouris>
and definitely, you don't want to have to build out every possible theoretical extension
<phoe>
that would be more easily implemented methinks
<jmercouris>
it's hard to build a platform without at least some initial draws though
<jmercouris>
in some ways are projects are very similar and very different, obviously our approaches and technologies are radically different, but we are both trying to build platforms
<jmercouris>
s/are/our
<jmercouris>
what is happening to my english...
<phoe>
beach: when you style your code, does the styler know how deep you are in the parens?
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<phoe>
If yes, then you can take (mod depth 6) and style each paren according to one of six colors. Boom, rainbow parens.
<beach>
phoe: That information is present, yes.
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<phoe>
Then it's not only possible, it's also easy.
<phoe>
I might try to tinker with it one day.
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<beach>
Probably. I don't much like to emphasize parentheses myself, but it could be another contributed project.
<phoe>
I know people who dislike emphasizing parens and I understand them and respect them.
<phoe>
But my brain functions better when it sees colors. (:
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<jmercouris>
we are all very different, which is why we use emacs
<beach>
phoe: I see you are a good candidate for that contribution then. :)
<phoe>
"we are all very different, which is why we use emacs"
<phoe>
hahahah
<jmercouris>
*climacs :D
<phoe>
climacs will come next.
<jmercouris>
phoe: if all people were really similar, and all needs could be met with a single editor, then likely a dominant paradigm would emerge
<phoe>
it emerged, it's called an Integrated Development Environment and it's used for languages like C or Java or C#.
<phoe>
but this is already #lispcafe material.
<beach>
jmercouris: Nah. You ignore some very strong psychological phenomena.
<jmercouris>
beach: care to elaborate?
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<beach>
jmercouris: You seem to think that people make decisions because they are rational. They aren't.
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<jmercouris>
yes, that's definitely true, otherwise I wouldn't have picked up lisp, or a browser project
<jmercouris>
at least I enjoy my flavor of irrationality :D
<phoe>
even CL agrees
<phoe>
(rationalp 'human) ;=> NIL
<shrdlu68>
They can't even be coerced to be rational...
<phoe>
yep
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<pjb>
It would be more useful to colorize the parentheses according to their interpretation by the evaluator: operator application (3 kinds), code syntax, data.
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<pjb>
(let (foo) (bar '(baz)))
<pjb>
Sorry, I mean: (let (foo) (bar '(baz)))
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<pjb>
(check-type (car foo) (integer 0))
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<pjb>
and then, with enough colour, we could also distinguish accessors from normal functions.
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<comborico1611>
Hello. I'm interested in learning Lisp, but I'd like to see how a certain simple program would work in Lisp. The program converts an input of seconds into Years Days Hours Minutes Seconds.
<beach>
That's too simple.
<comborico1611>
Is there anyone willing to write that up?
<comborico1611>
Haha
<comborico1611>
Could you post it here or on GitHub?
<beach>
(decode-universal-time seconds)
<loke>
comborico1611: Show what your current code looks like.
<beach>
↑
<loke>
comborico1611: We really want to try to avoid to people's homework for them
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<loke>
But we're happy to assist if you're having specific problems.
<comborico1611>
I don't have enough knowledge to do it in lisp
<beach>
comborico1611: I just showed you the solution.
<comborico1611>
Loke, haha.
<jmercouris>
I wonder what happened with that other guy pjb was helping, did he pass his assignment?
<comborico1611>
A built-in function is not what I'm looking for.
<loke>
comborico1611: Show your current coe and explain where you have problems.
<beach>
comborico1611: I think I am with loke here. If your purpose is really to learn Common Lisp, then ask some specific questions, and we will answer.
<comborico1611>
Yes, i found that one. Thank you, though.
<jmercouris>
alternatively, describe what you think the steps should be to convert your input to your desired result
<jmercouris>
and maybe we can guide you through each step logically
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<comborico1611>
Beach, I'm wanting to see this little program *before* i decide to learn the language. But if i have no takers, i will attempt to write it, then come back to see if i did it in a concise manner
<Bike>
"how"? they just do. floor is defined to return two values
<jmercouris>
right, but within floor, what does the last form in the defun look like?
<jmercouris>
(values value1 value2)?
<Bike>
floor is built in
<Bike>
but it could be something like that, yes
<Bike>
this function i wrote returns five values, as you can see
<Bike>
using the values function beach linked
<jmercouris>
aha, yes, I see
<jmercouris>
very clever solution
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<comborico1611>
Beach, you suggest i don't learn it because i want to see an example of code first? (I think i found the grumpy one of the group.). Your name is quite fitting.
<Bike>
it's not actually correct, since years aren't exactly 365 days
<smokeink>
haha
<jmercouris>
comborico1611: I don't think it's that, it just seems very much like fishing for a homework problem
<Bike>
this is too easy to be a homework problem
<Bike>
it's barely even a "program"
<jmercouris>
comborico1611: If you really wanted to learn the language you'd be willing to look at just about any example of any type as long as it teaches something about the language
<comborico1611>
Not true.
<jmercouris>
comborico1611: unless you presume that you can predict which kinds of functions will be the most illustrative of the langauges techniques and strengths without knowing the language
<comborico1611>
If i suspect this particular problem is well-suited to demonstrate the aspects of a language, I would prefer to use that one program as an example. Not just any program.
<Bike>
it's not well suited
<jmercouris>
how can you suspect without knowing? that is my point
<White_Flame>
you asked for a 1-liner, and got a 1-liner...
<White_Flame>
it doesn't sound like you realized the code was posted right after you asked
<Bike>
as you can see, it's just a bunch of divisions
<comborico1611>
If the person has a limited amount of knowledge in programming, but his work with one program, namely the seconds program, then that program example is best for them to understand other languages, without investing time in learning the language first.
<Bike>
i'm not sure what would be informative as to the nature of the language, but i don't think this is it
<pjb>
jmercouris: unfortunately, we never know. But we can guess he flunked heavily.
<jmercouris>
comborico1611: let's start with a different approach, what is your motivation for learning programming languages, and what would you hope to get out of learning lisp?
<beach>
comborico1611: You can take our collective word for it. Common Lisp is worth learning.
<beach>
comborico1611: Now let's move on.
<_death>
comborico1611: this channel is not to convince people to learn lisp, it's for people already interested in lisp
<Bike>
but jmercouris learned something, so i'll call it a win
<comborico1611>
Bike, with your understanding of programming, you are correct this wouldn't be a good demonstration of the nature of the language. But with someone with limited knowledge working on the same sample code that they've done in other languages, is the appropriate choice.
<pjb>
comborico1611: it's not a question of knowing lisp or even programming. It's a question of having brains, and booting it.
<pjb>
comborico1611: you could start by doing it yourself, by hand, with paperl and pencil.
<comborico1611>
Pjb, I've written the code in another language. I just don't want to take the time to read a few chapters in a book to just see the sample code.
<pjb>
comborico1611: once you've done a few times, you should try to note what you're doing.
<beach>
comborico1611: Show us the code you have written.
<pjb>
If you already have the code, then it is trivial to convert to lisp.
<White_Flame>
comborico1611: this is like a C programmer asking how you get the length of a string in Python, but not wanting to use the builtin
<pjb>
comborico1611: just read a tutorial, half an hour should be enough.
<jmercouris>
pjb: it's written in x86 assembler
<comborico1611>
Beach, I'm very aware that lisp is a great programming language. I am a die-hard Emacs user. I'll be at not good enough to use the customization that elisp provides..
<pjb>
jmercouris: lisp is a lower-level programming language than C!
<jmercouris>
White_Flame: length("lol")
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<beach>
comborico1611: Oh, you want to learn Emacs Lisp. Wrong channel. This one is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<jmercouris>
comborico1611: I think the word you are looking for is albeit
<loke>
pjb: It's lower-level, but it's lower along a different dimension! :-)
<jmercouris>
pjb: it's literally written in binary
<comborico1611>
It would be more useful if I saw an example of a program I've worked with. And I've only work with one program in my life. A program that converts seconds in 2 years months days hours minutes seconds.
<beach>
Show us your code.
<comborico1611>
Let me see if it is still on GitHub. I'm on my phone.
<jmercouris>
comborico1611: you make it sound like you've been toiling your whole life on this one program, I imagine it is the best seconds converter in the world
<White_Flame>
so, just basically div/mod a few times?
<pjb>
comborico1611: also, I'd be curious about my adjective. Feel free to identify the seven dwarfs ;-)
<White_Flame>
or is it doing real date computations against an epoch?
<beach>
_death: I already suggested that.
<_death>
beach: ah
<beach>
_death: Built-in functions are unacceptable apparently.
<pjb>
6 to go.
<jmercouris>
"I've only worked on one program my whole life, but this one, let me tell you, this is the fastest, most lightweight seconds to date converter ver"
<_death>
beach: he could always look at an implementation's source code for it ;)
<beach>
Heh! Good idea.
<comborico1611>
Haha. No. I just learned to code last spring.
<jmercouris>
In one year you've only written one program?
<White_Flame>
comborico1611: I would suggest simply learning Common Lisp. Forget your date example. You don't really have the grounding yet to make comparison evaluations; learn Lisp to at least get that foundation established
<jmercouris>
You must not really like it that much
<comborico1611>
It's complicated . . .
<comborico1611>
Going on to computer, you chatty people
<jmercouris>
There is one good thing about learning lisp as your first language, none of the terms will confuse you
<jmercouris>
and you won't carry in expectations from other runtimes and languages
<comborico1611_>
beach, here is what you were asking for.
<beach>
That looks very wrong. Mismatched curly braces and double quotes.
<comborico1611_>
Oops oops
<comborico1611_>
yeah, that is not the full program.
<comborico1611_>
I would need to go to a different computer to get it.
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<comborico1611_>
but the one I posted here is the gist of it.
<comborico1611_>
It should be very easy to write up in Lisp. I'd just like to see it in Lisp for myself, without having to read a few chapters more than I have already.
<beach>
It certainly is easy to write up.
<comborico1611_>
But? You're too lazy to? Or I should do my own homework?
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<beach>
Both.
<comborico1611_>
Thought so.
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<comborico1611_>
pjb: Think you would mind writing my request up real quick?
<beach>
I usually help people when I think it might be a good investment, i.e. that the person I help will later contribute to the common code base. I don't have that impression in this case.
<comborico1611_>
bike: what code?
<White_Flame>
again, just go do some basic lisp tutorials, and you'll have enough to figure this out on your own. Or, start using the builtin decode time function
<comborico1611_>
beach, that's fine. I don't claim that I would do that. Just a guy looking to see a sample of this code in this language.
<jmercouris>
comborico1611_: What are you asking for exactly? if you want to learn lisp, just learn it, if you encounter issues in the path of learning we can help
<White_Flame>
play around with the truncate function, as was in th eposted example
<jmercouris>
comborico1611_: don't just ask people to randomly write up functions for your amusement, have some respect for people's time
<comborico1611_>
jmercouris, again for the fifth or more time. I'm just looking to see a sample code of how this task would be done in CL.
<jmercouris>
comborico1611_: Again, for the 10th time, that's not a good way to learn CL
<White_Flame>
why? you can't read it. you don't have the basis to evaluate code yet
<White_Flame>
just go through tutorials and learn the language
<comborico1611_>
jmercouris, asking for a simple program to be written by someone affluent in a language doesn't seem disrespectful of someone's time.
<White_Flame>
Lisp doesn't look like other languages, so whatever introduction you've had before isn't going to help you read Lisp
<jmercouris>
yes it totally does, because you are ignoring what everyone is telling you, that it is a waste of time
<White_Flame>
comborico1611: there are already tons of resources to help you learn. You're trying to bypass them for no defensible reason
<jackdaniel>
this looks very much like you have an assignment from uni (or wherever) and you think that you will "outsmart" people on lisp by asking them to write it for you (with some improbable excuse)
<jackdaniel>
s/on lisp/on #lisp/
<comborico1611_>
jackdaniel, lol.
<jackdaniel>
very silly indeed, but not laughable
<random-nick>
comborico1611_: what's wrong with Bike's code?
<White_Flame>
and you've had a few working examples pasted at you already
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<comborico1611_>
This is terribly simple code. I just want to see a sample of it, inspect how I feel the language is reflected by the code *before* I commit time to learning a language.
<comborico1611_>
jmercouris, thanks for speaking for everyone here.
<jmercouris>
there's a billion and one samples online
<White_Flame>
you can't make that decision
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<comborico1611_>
random-nick, I did't see the link. I looked three times for it.
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<jmercouris>
I don't speak for everyone here, but I think I have a good pulse of what many are thinking
<White_Flame>
"show me written Chinese before I learn the language, and I'll use that to decide whether or not I want to learn it, because there's a lot I can intuit from it"
<jmercouris>
White_Flame: very well said
<comborico1611_>
jmercouris, you have a reading comprehension problem. I detailed before the reason I preferred this specific example.
<jmercouris>
I don't have a reading problem, you simply don't know how to program in any langauge, so I don't see how that would help you even if it were true
<White_Flame>
you've see multiple examples, you've seen multiple tutorials. your question repetition is pointing that somethign else is wrong
<comborico1611_>
jmercouris says "you are ignoring what everyone is telling you". sounds like you rpresent everyone
* |3b|
suspects anyone who disagreed would say so
<comborico1611_>
jmercouris, you hurt my feelings. I'm not able to program blah blah blah lanague blah blah. I'm done with you, loser.
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<beach>
Wow.
<White_Flame>
yeah
<jackdaniel>
actually he assessed your attitude based on your reactions to what others do (he didn't mention "others" internal motives / feelings)
<jmercouris>
comborico1611_: I don't think hurting your feelings makes me a loser, but that's not what I'm after, I'm just trying to help, maybe I did the wrong approach, sorry for that
<jackdaniel>
comborico1611_: please refrain from calling people names
<jackdaniel>
you may /ignore him if you feel like it
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<pjb>
comborico1611_: the first macro generated a function that looped over the bases list; instead, the new solution expand to the truncate calls like Bike's solution.
<White_Flame>
and just to be clear, pjb's solutions are advanced. So if you want to see examples of "real" lisp beyond just hardcoded toy examples, there you go
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<comborico1611_>
Bike, thanks for your help! I found your code. Whew. I think he did in less than 3 minutes. Cry babies not wanting to demonstrate some code. Gee wiz.
<jackdaniel>
(last warning)
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<White_Flame>
well, that's one way to admit that you can't read code yet, given the number of links that have been posted. Again, go through tutorials to learn how to read the code if you want specifics
<comborico1611_>
jackdaniel, you got it, jack.
<comborico1611_>
No more names.
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<comborico1611_>
pjb, I like the incorporation of a list. Interesting idea.
<comborico1611_>
pjg, I'm inspecting the code now.
<pjb>
Notice however, that both the standard decode-universal-time and my macro and functions take and generate the list in the least-significant first order. Since lists can grow unbounded, that let the code know the meaning of the first elements of the list without having to compute its length.
<jmercouris>
pjb: I take it this exercise amuses you :D?
<pjb>
jmercouris: It allows me to improve code written ten+ years ago :-)
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<comborico1611_>
pjb, it's difficult for me to follow. But I do have a question. I have read that using macros un-needlessly (meaning unless you are forced) is considered a violation of best practices. Do you agree with this?
<Bike>
that's why i said the actually this has been the channel for an hour so i'll just come back later
<jmercouris>
I'm certainly pro-humor, as long as it isn't at the detriment of someone else, and I don't think _death's is evil natured or anything
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<comborico1611_>
Now everyone go get some coffee. I need to study these codes. Thank you all who particpated.
<White_Flame>
don't study the code. Just look at it
<pjb>
jackdaniel: _death and my answer demonstrate meta programming, which is the strong point of lisp. My answer demonstrate a macro that generalize the problem statement so you can use it with Aztec or Babylonian number systems; _death demonstrate a general technique (the "inteprreter" pattern as the GoF puts it).
<White_Flame>
learn lisp, then study it
<jmercouris>
what is the original language he posted here anyway? applescript?
<pjb>
perl.
<pjb>
has it been python, we'd have used cl-python :-)
<jmercouris>
ah, I've never done any perl, interesting that it has "say"
<jackdaniel>
however if you read into it, it is not obvious who is trolling who. maybe it is a self-driven vicious cycle.
<jackdaniel>
laters \o
<jmercouris>
the dollar signs should have given it away, but I just associate those with PHP
<comborico1611_>
bike, yours is very clean. Very good!
<jmercouris>
at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who was trolling who, it was an interesting journey, and in some ways pretty informative, I'm actually trying to understand _death's code
<comborico1611_>
It is Perl6, actually.
<comborico1611_>
We're no longer done, by the way. :-)
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<jmercouris>
_death: so each cond line basically covers a case, first one empty program, second one a number, and then whatever operands are supported, right?
<_death>
jmercouris: yes.. a better name for the function is EVAL... you may find similar functions in various Lisp books :)
<jmercouris>
_death: I get the gist of your snippet, I couldn't write something so elegant, but I could make a very clunky version I think
<jmercouris>
in Lisp at least, in python it'd look "ok"
<jmercouris>
also "elegant" because of course it assumes a lot and isn't really extendable, but it is nice and compact
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<jmercouris>
very cool though, thanks for sharing
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<pjb>
jmercouris: the hint is the use of progv, which is specifically designed to implement interpreters :-)
<White_Flame>
can anybody freely edit in those codeshare links?
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<jmercouris>
White_Flame: yeah
<pjb>
White_Flame: depends; they may be marked read-only.
<pjb>
I don't do that.
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<pjb>
White_Flame: but codeshare is designed for collaborative editing and development; there's a videochat module.
<jmercouris>
If two people ssh on to the same machine, and that machine is running emacs daemon, and they both launch an instance to a file, can they both see that file being edited?
<White_Flame>
there's always screen as a general solution
<jmercouris>
yeah, but the emacs daemon would be cooler as you could do x forwarding
<jmercouris>
it would only make sense on a local network realistically
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<jmercouris>
I believe sbcl complains when you don't use defgeneric, but in practice, is it bad?
<jmercouris>
should I be actually doing these declarations?
<pjb>
jmercouris: there are advantages of doing them. On the other hand, it's a bore for accessors.
<pjb>
The main advantage, is that it allows you to document the generic function; also you can provide a default method.
<_death>
if you think in terms of protocols then you generally want to write defgenerics anyway
<jmercouris>
I have never made that mental connection until you just said that
<pjb>
And since this allows you to explicitely define and document the protocol, you can easily export it from a package. So there's no problem when several different package define methods to the same generic function.
<jmercouris>
writing a set of defgenerics is effectively defining a protocol for objects of a class
<jmercouris>
that makes so much sense
<pjb>
You can gather all the defgeneric in a common "protocol" package used by the others.
<jmercouris>
right right, yes
<jmercouris>
now I see the purpose
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<jmercouris>
or rather, a possible purpose, I'm not sure I have the whole picture yet, but yeah
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<pjb>
jmercouris: for example, since methods are not attached to classes but to the generic function, it make sense often to just define them with the :method option of defgeneric. Keeping all the methods in the generic function, instead of spreading them all over the project.
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<pjb>
Depending on the logic of your code…
<White_Flame>
defmethod without defgeneric is sortakinda like setf without defvar
<phoe>
theoretically, yes, I like to think of it like that
<phoe>
except SBCL stopped warning about it some time ago
<beach>
These days I even stick a DEFGENERIC in there for slot accessors. If I don't, the default signature has OBJECT as the name of the parameter, but I often want something more specific.
<comborico1611_>
Thank pjb and _death for your time. When bike gets back, tell him I bless him in the name of Jesus Christ.
<White_Flame>
comborico1611: besides this weird exchange we've had here, you should probably ask further learning questions in #clnoobs
<comborico1611_>
Thank you.
<White_Flame>
this channel is always going to be more advanced
<comborico1611_>
I've saved the programs, not to use as a homework assignment, but to meditate on. As I stated earlier, I know Lisp is the most powerful progrmming lanugage.
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<White_Flame>
(that's still like meditating on a foreign language text, instead of meditating on the instructional materials to learn the language)
<comborico1611_>
And I adore Emacs. My main career is in Web Development and design. I have an interest in programming, but I'm not sure if I'm *that* intested. I only have Saturdays to dedicate to programming, when I do decide to dedicate it to learning programming. So that is why I requested a sample of this particular program. I don't wish to dedicate my free Saturdays to learning just to see a sample code. I thank this channel again fo
<comborico1611_>
r helping me by providing a custom simple program for me to meditate on.
<comborico1611_>
Yes, I know. But it speaks to the verbosity of a given language and other generalities.
<White_Flame>
not really
<phoe>
Is there a limit on how many dimensions an array can have in CL?
<White_Flame>
lisp can collapse code size compared to other languages, even if it can be larger in small examples
<comborico1611_>
You can definitely demonstrate verbose-ness with such a sample.
<White_Flame>
again, you need context to evaluate any of this. You're on the path to cargo cult
<comborico1611_>
White_Flame, I will keep what you said in mind.
<comborico1611_>
Bye.
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<pjb>
phoe: I think the limit is most-positive-fixnum.
<pjb>
phoe: however in practice, since there's array-total-size-limit (which may be as low as 1024), the practical limit on dimensions is on the order of 10 in the worst case.
<pjb>
phoe: also, you have to consider call-arguments-limit. You couldn't index an array with that many dimensions (aref takes the array itself as first argument).
<phoe>
pjb: yes, that is what I thought.
<pjb>
(you could still use array-row-major-aref, but what would be the point of declaring a multidimentionnal array if you can't index it directly).
<pjb>
So (1- call-arguments-limit) being as low as 49, this could be the lowest maximum array dimension.
<beach>
Notice that the comments are aligned with what they comment, tag or statement.
<phoe>
beach: This is good. Aligning of the comments is awesome.
<beach>
By now, you should be convinced that the technique that I use is superior to regular expressions for indentation, right?
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<phoe>
beach: I am convinced. This is superb stuff.
<beach>
Thanks.
<_death>
what about a macro expanding to tagbody
<jmercouris>
if I have a method like this (defmethod run-something ((args))) and then I have (defmethod run-something :before ((args))), am I correct in thinking that the method with :before will be invoked before the other?
<phoe>
_death: like DO?
<_death>
yes
<phoe>
(do (...) (...) a (frob) b (fred) c (quux))
<phoe>
something like that, yes
<phoe>
jmercouris: correct
<phoe>
read up on the standard method combination for more details.
<jmercouris>
I'd prefer something a little lighter than the CLHS, but I'll take a look, thanks
<beach>
_death: The indentation will be based on the macro lambda list.
<phoe>
beach: so the DO's &body will not have tagbody indentation in that case?
<_death>
beach: ok.. I think emacs/slime has some special-casing for DO
<beach>
Oh, sorry. For specific standard macros, there will be a separate indentation rule.
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<phoe>
beach: you could also define some generic "ways" of indenting stuff. You could introduce a thing like &tagbody that is only for defining indentation and otherwise equivalent to &body, but will indent the body forms in a TAGBODY style.
<phoe>
(define-indentation cl:do (4 4 &tagbody)) or something alike
<_death>
I think for "smart" indentation you'd want to use some annotation mechanism..
<beach>
phoe: I considered that and decided against it. It is more complicated than that, because I need to know whether sub-expressions are forms or not. The recursive indentation calculation depends on it.
<phoe>
beach: I see.
<phoe>
Do you allow arbitrary computation when computing indentation for a form?
<phoe>
Can I define a method for (eql 'cl:do) that will turn its indentation into something tagbodylike?
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<_death>
that sounds like the pretty-printer approach
<phoe>
It would work like that, yeah.
<fourier>
fe[nl]ix: submitted 2 prs, wanna get them in
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<jmercouris>
beach: this is more work than I ever imagined :D
<jmercouris>
now that I am starting to get into it, I am seeing what kind of a monumental task this is
<jmercouris>
especially because I am simultaneously converting the interface to a CLOS object to allow for multiple simultaneous backends
<jmercouris>
a lot of pain for now, but potentially unbeleivably cool stuff if the implementation actually works
<jmercouris>
I can imagine a single server running multiple backends on peoples computers, that would be interesting, multiple people with the same "tabs" open, stuff like that
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<whoman>
~___~
<whoman>
not cool man
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<jmercouris>
whoman: ???
<whoman>
just seen the scrollback from last night
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<jmercouris>
whoman: what isn't cool? by whom? I don't understand
<phoe>
yep, it's all out of context.
<jmercouris>
what is "the scrollback"? the history? the logs?
<sjl>
the stuff said while you were away but your IRC client was connected, which you usually have to "scroll back" to see
<jmercouris>
ah okay, that solves part of the mystery
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<whoman>
<victim_> jmercouris, you hurt my feelings. I'm not able to program blah blah blah lanague blah blah. I'm done with you, loser.
<whoman>
T_T
<phoe>
geez, don't repost this stuff
<phoe>
the more you repost it the more energy we all spend on it
<phoe>
the more we forget about it the more we can focus on actual Lisp.
<phoe>
repost stuff that's worth reposting.
<whoman>
sorry, should have left it. moving on
<whoman>
has anyone had a chance to play with the specialized lisp editor for iphone ?
<jackdaniel>
I'm a bit sceptical of editing lisp on any phone
<fourier>
lisp is too verbose language for a phone
<shrdlu68>
Assembly would be perfect, with those long thin poetic lines...
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<whoman>
i can't find the name of it, but it had special buttons for editing forms and such, a bit like 'touch paredit' , quite experimental. i searched but i cannot remember the name
<fourier>
APL is the best lang for the phone. Dyalog is working on their version for Android, and J already has a version for Android
<Shinmera>
Best to code in binary on the phone, only needs two buttons! No way to mistype!
<fourier>
Aaron is former schemer btw. he told on one conference that APL is the only language he was not able to express in scheme
<ecraven>
I still want to learn APL properly some day
<fourier>
for me learning APL was the second mind-blowing programming experience after lisp
<ecraven>
I learned some, but haven't really "groked" it well enough to read even simple programs
<ecraven>
I don't understand most "idioms" as APLers call them
<ecraven>
also, dyalog with its trains is an entirely different level yet again
<fourier>
yep trains are hard ;)
<ecraven>
APL finally made me understand that succinctness can be a virtue.. arcfide's compiler on a few pages is just really impressive, and the claim that you can actually keep it all in your head is indeed believable in that context
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<stacksmith>
Fare: are you still scheme-bound these days?
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<ecraven>
hehe, "...in the simplest manner imaginable" is a quote I wouldn't apply to APL and the co-dfns compiler myself :P
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<phoe>
shortest ain't mean no simple
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<fourier>
strangely enough these 2 communities - apl and cl - almost never intersecting. the CL community grows from mature software engineers and science(around AI back in the day), while APL from domain experts and non-programmers
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<stacksmith>
Don't hear much Haskell talk either, for that matter.
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<fourier>
"these haskellers and their types!"
<stacksmith>
I suppose strong typing is a deal breaker for many lispers.
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<fourier>
hm the stance "if its compiles, it most certainly works" sounds appealing, I guess some lispers (like peter siebel iirc) have switched to haskell
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* |3b|
likes being able to compile things without knowing what "works" is yet :)
<phoe>
It worked indeed, except it did not do what I wanted it to do, so I can't say that it "worked".
<fourier>
stacksmith: yep its not that many of them. also for example in Dyalog APL IDE there is a toolbar with all the symbols so you can just point your mouse and get a hint on it. In GNU APL Emacs's mode there is a popup keyboard with a similar hint when you move mouse over the symbols.
<stacksmith>
It depends on how you define 'works'. Someone here has written gobs of Lisp code he claims "works", but he doesn't know basic things about Lisp.
<pjb>
fourier: real lispers will know the dire limitations of the haskell point of view.
<phoe>
stacksmith: passes the tests that I defined for it
<pjb>
I would advise all to study very closely the RAX bug.
<pjb>
Check the google talk, and read the Formal Analysis of the Remote Agent Before and After Flight.
<pjb>
Then you will LOL each time you hear a haskeller.
<fourier>
pjb: I guess main limitation is the necessity to have a phd in category theory in order to write hello world
<pjb>
phoe: the REPL part is the least interesting in that bug!
<pjb>
Hing: the system had been formally verified!
<pjb>
fourier: well, not really, since like in any language you're not forced to use very part of the language to write programs.
<pjb>
s/Hing/Hint/
<pjb>
It is possible that eventually haskell become useful. When it will run on formally verified hardware, on which would run formally verified operating systems and drivers, and where all the libraries and network protocols you'd use would have be formally verified. Then perhaps…
<stacksmith>
phoe: there is an implied trust that the test itself "works".
<phoe>
stacksmith: at some point you need to trust something when you automate verification.
<pjb>
But the main objection I see is that businesses won't finance such development in your life time (they didn't in mine). So don't dream.
<stacksmith>
phoe: indeed.
<fourier>
pjb: not really. there is a pandoc which is quite widely used; other apps will come
<pjb>
fourier: yes, it's free software.
<pjb>
Not a paying job with paying customers.
<fourier>
there are a few jobs for haskellers; and their activity in reddit for example is higher than in lisp reddit
<fourier>
but still it is too hard language to be widely adopted.
<ecraven>
idris seems an interesting language that might succeed haskell
<pjb>
Activity in forums is proportional to the difficulties of the language or system. It's not a good sign.
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<makomo>
good evening :-)
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<makomo>
what would be the best way to create a function from a body of code? i.e. i have a list of forms and want to make a function that will run these forms?
<fourier>
flet/labels
<makomo>
so far i've used (compile nil `(lambda () ,@body))
<makomo>
hm i guess that's doable too, and then i could create a lambda which just calls the one defined by flet/labels
<makomo>
what would be the best way to create it directly?
<pjb>
makomo: yep.
<White_Flame>
if you have the expressions as list-based data, it will have to end up as EVAL or COMPILE
<makomo>
from what i can tell, FUNCTION is out of the game because it's a special operator and then i would have to eval it myself (which i suppose flet/labels, etc. do under the hood)
<makomo>
White_Flame: yup, that's exactly what i'm thinking
<White_Flame>
(at runtime. at compile-time, get it in a macro expansion)
<makomo>
mhm, exactly
<pjb>
it depends on the expressions. If they are all function calls, then you can do (mapcar (lambda (x) (apply (first x) (rest x))) '((+ 1 2 3) (* 3 4 5))) #| --> (6 60) |#
<pjb>
but if you also have macros or special operators, then (compile nil `(lambda () ,@body)) is better.
<White_Flame>
the APPLY example wouldn't work with nested expressions as written
<pjb>
Also, it may depend on how you want to handle errors, notably program-errors. With compile if there's a program error, nothing will be called. On the other hand you may do (mapcar (lambda (x) (ignore-errors (funcall (compile nil `(lambda () ,x))))) '((print (+ 1 2 3)) (print (/ 0)) (print 'hi))) #| 6 hi --> (6 nil hi) |#
<pjb>
White_Flame: indeed.
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<makomo>
pjb: i see
<pjb>
makomo: also you have to consider that there are no variables linking your expressions. Perhaps you want some? Why do you have such isolated expressions? Perhaps you want to scan them for free variables and bind them in a surrounding let, so that you can have ((setf foo 42) (+ foo 3)) ?
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<makomo>
pjb: what i'm trying to do is to see how exactly i would implement a small HDL/hardware simulator in lisp. it has already been done in C++ by writing a compiler and a vm, but i'm interested to see how easy it would be in lisp
<makomo>
so the first thing to do is to come up with some macros to define the hardware components and behavioral processes and such
<makomo>
and these processes would just contain lisp code which i would stuff into lambdas and store within these component objects
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<makomo>
in this case, since everything is known at compile-time i can just generate lambda expressions myself without using COMPILE
<White_Flame>
yes
<makomo>
this code contained within the processes can technically be arbitrary lisp code but should only contain operators which are related to the simulation
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<White_Flame>
you only need to deal with eval/compile if you're loading in code at runtime. Everything else should be doable at macro-time
<makomo>
White_Flame: yup :-)
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<pjb>
or with closures.
<makomo>
if i want to be safe against people putting arbitrary/nasty code into these processes, i would have to first preprocess this code before putting it into a lambda right? i would have to somehow walk the code and allow only simulation-related operators
<White_Flame>
right. have a "safe" subset of CL that you can verify
<pjb>
or use closures.
<makomo>
or can i somehow make this code execute in a "sandbox"?
<makomo>
pjb: hmm?
<pjb>
code is not random, it comes from your hdl definitions.
<White_Flame>
plus, if you're concerned about reading untrusted code, you need to ensure reader eval macros are not enabled
<makomo>
well, since it's just arbitrary lisp code, it could contain nasty stuff like "rm -rf /"
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<makomo>
i.e. if someone else prepares a malicious simulation for you to run
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<makomo>
if i had a sandbox, rather than having to check the code myself, this sandbox would only provide simulation-related operators and everything else would be unbound/undefined
<makomo>
is there a way this could be done?
<makomo>
White_Flame: right, that too
<makomo>
but if the code ran in this sandbox, then those eval macros could be stopped too
<makomo>
i.e. they would just fail
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<makomo>
hm i was thinking of running the code in a different package or something, but the code could always just use IN-PACKAGE to switch back i guess?
<White_Flame>
yes, or just (sb-ext::lol-mung-your-os)
<makomo>
hm yeah :-(
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<stacksmith>
Does anyone know if vectors of 4-bit unsigned-byte values are handled efficiently by modern implementations?
<Fare>
probably not
<phoe>
stacksmith: efficiently, what do you mean?
<phoe>
because CPUs might not be able to handle them more efficiently than they would be able to handle uint8
<Fare>
stacksmith, on SBCL (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4)) says (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4) so you might be in luck.
<White_Flame>
yes, it's a space efficiency vs code efficiency tradeoff to decide whether to bit-pack <8-bit values
<phoe>
ooh, that is actually interesting
<stacksmith>
I mean as efficiently as can be expected from an 8-bit vector plus the required shift/mask
<pjb>
Armed Bear Common Lisp --> T
<pjb>
ECL --> EXT:BYTE8
<pjb>
CLISP --> (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4)
<pjb>
Clozure Common Lisp --> (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)
<pjb>
SBCL --> (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4)
<pjb>
<pjb>
So sbcl and clisp optimizes it. ecl and ccl are not too bad. abcl is no good there.
<Fare>
cl-launch can help you quickly test out many lisps.
<Fare>
or lisp-invocation.asd
<stacksmith>
Interesting. Does it mean that CCL will store 4-bit values in an 8-bit byte discarding 4 bits?
<phoe>
stacksmith: seems so
<Fare>
next question: does anyone store strings as 3 characters per 64-bit word? :-)
<stacksmith>
That is very interesting. Fare: thank you, i will check out cl-launch. And thank you all.
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<Fare>
interesting results for (loop for i from 1 to 128 collect (upgraded-array-element-type `(unsigned-byte ,i)))
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<stacksmith>
why (unsigned-byte 7) for 5,6,7 bits? Does it mean that 7 bits are stored in an 8-bit byte?
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<phoe>
it means that it has a way of optimizing for uint7s
<phoe>
probably stores them in uint8 with tags
<phoe>
or something
<pjb>
stacksmith: often, for integers, there's only one type tag in the low order bit, so (unsigned-byte 7) is the most efficient way to store small integer (fixnum) values into a byte.
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<stacksmith>
Confused: if 7 means it is probably 8, does 4 mean maybe 8? Does upgraded-array-element-type make any promises about the storage size?
<phoe>
nothing makes any promises about the storage-size
<phoe>
consult your implementation for the exact details. upgraded-array-element-type can't tell you such implementation details.
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<stacksmith>
OK. As a note, my original question had nothing to do with upgraded-array-element-type...
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<phoe>
;)
<phoe>
stacksmith: I think you can direct your question towards SBCL as it's reasonably fast and has a separate u-a-e-t for uint4
<phoe>
so #sbcl
<stacksmith>
will do.
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<|3b|>
unsigned-byte 7,15,31,etc u-a-e-t are probably from the combination of upgrading rules and type lattice, like NIL arrays being strings, since unsigned-byte 7 overlaps signed-byte 8