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<borei>
hi all !
<stacksmith>
hello.
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<borei>
i have question abou type specifier(s), basically is it possible to use a variable with type-name. There are fragment of the code - https://pastebin.com/FJ4WRja0
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<borei>
in first block i use (element-type vector) - and it works
<borei>
in second one - it doesn't
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<pjb>
borei: good question.
<pjb>
borei: now, the thing you see, is that (element-type vector) is determined at RUN TIME.
<borei>
im targeting sort of templating, don't want to create 100% identilcal code for single-float and double-float
<pjb>
borei: type declarations are promises that YOU are making to the compiler.
<pjb>
borei: how can you promise such a thing, when it's the caller at run-time who will decide on the vector and the value parameters?
<borei>
so different stage
<pjb>
borei: you cannot make such a promise!
<pjb>
you can only check, at run-time, whether the type is valid!
<pjb>
So, instead of declare, use check-type
<pjb>
Now, check-type expects a compilation-time type specifier, so it's not good either.
<pjb>
(assert (typep value (element-type vector)) (value) "value should be of type ~S, not ~S" (element-type vector) (type-of value))
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<pjb>
borei: notice that when you use assert with a list of places, if the assertion is falsified, it will break in the debugger with restarts that will allow you to change the value at run-time.
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<pjb>
borei: finally, notice that (setf aref) already performs this type tests, so you could as well not check it altogether!
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<borei>
pjb (the <type-name> <var>) - is it also sort of declare ?
<borei>
so it's done at the compile stage, not runtime.
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<pillton>
You need to make separate classes for each specialised vector so that you can obtain the element type at compile time.
<pillton>
The problem is quite tricky to do.
<borei>
yes i do have separate classes
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<borei>
hmmm
<pillton>
No you don't. The element-type slot is initialized run time.
<pillton>
borei: You are in relatively unknown territory. I haven't seen people discuss this topic.
<borei>
it's a bit at the higher level then im, i just don't see full pecture right now, because im inside not above.
<pillton>
I don't have time to help at the moment. I suggest you read the documentation on the template function system I provided above and use it on common lisp arrays initially. Once you understand that, then you can start to think about how to implement an alternate common lisp array.
<Bike>
(deftype my-array (&optional (element-type 't) &environment env) (ensure-array-class (upgraded-array-element-type element-type env))) (defvar *array-classes* (make-hash-table :test #'equal)) (defun ensure-array-class (et) (ensure-gethash et *array-classes* (ensure-class ...))), clearly the greatest idea i've ever had
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<pillton>
You should try and do dimensions.
<pillton>
My solution was pretty funny.
<borei>
seems like for now i'll end-up with code duplication for different types, overwise it will kill performance completely
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<pillton>
Well, the template function system manages the synthesis of code for a specific set of types.
<sjl>
an implementation isn't allowed to choke on logs of large numbers, right?
<sjl>
ABCL signals an error on (log (expt 10 1000) 10), but SBCL, CCL, and ECL all work.
<Bike>
well there's floating-point-overflow and stuff...
<sjl>
The result is only 1000.0, which shouldn't overflow anything
<Bike>
it could be dumb and try to compute 10^1000, which... maybe is out of range?
<pillton>
Bignum is only required to be a type so it could be nil.
<sjl>
10^1000 isn't that big. ABCL handles that part fine. The actual error is that it's trying to convert that 10^1000 to a double-float to compute its log, and that fails.
<sjl>
But from reading the spec I don't think that's allowed
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<sjl>
the spec just says it takes a nonzero number, and (typep (expt 10 1000) 'number)
<sjl>
is T
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<Bike>
i was thinking that would be too big for a double, yeah.
<sjl>
Sure
<Bike>
practically speaking the arithmetic must be allowed to fail at some point, and clhs's explicit minimums for numbers are fairly low.
<pierpa>
FWIW LW returns infinity, which is wrong too, of course
<sjl>
> There is no limit on the magnitude of an integer.
<sjl>
pierpa: huh, yeah that's worse than an error...
<pierpa>
agreed
<pillton>
I think that sentence in the spec is misleading given that bignum is only defined to be (and integer (not fixnum)).
<sjl>
I mean, obviously if you don't have the memory to allocate the bignum, things aren't going to work. But that's not even remotely close to the case here.
<pillton>
(find-class 'bignum) on ABCL does return a class so the problem is to do with the implementation of log.
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<Bike>
i think it's probably conformant to bullshit like that
<Bike>
but, it sucks
<sjl>
(print (expt 10 100000)) works fine, so there's plenty of memory left for a mere (expt 10 1000)
<Bike>
assuming abcl is opposed to suck, you could work something out
<Bike>
abcl's implementation of log probably has no idea about integers
<pierpa>
though, somewhere in the spec is mentioned that there can be implementation limits. This is one such limits,
<Bike>
because integer log is, yeah, you know
<sjl>
sure
<Bike>
so just talk to the abcl people be like
<Bike>
"hey"
<Bike>
"this sucks"
<sjl>
pierpa: where's that section? I tried to find it but am not sure what to search for
<pierpa>
the error I mean. Infinity cannot be justified.
<Bike>
clhs is fairly vague about numbers really, it just says "you know, like math" for most of the operations
<sjl>
But the log page says it takes a number, not a fixnum
<Zhivago>
Well, remember that for some insane reason fixnum is a type, not a class.
<Zhivago>
So they really don't have much alternative.
<Bike>
" An error of type floating-point-overflow or floating-point-underflow should be signaled if a floating-point computation causes exponent overflow or underflow, respectively. " thanks, clhs
<Bike>
anyway yeah i don't think standards lawyering is required here, the behavior is clearly bad
<Bike>
LW's too i guess
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<sjl>
LW's seems worse... at least I noticed when I got an error instead of getting a just totally bonkers result
<Zhivago>
The problem is that lacking an 'indefinitely large' value, 'infinity' seems a reasonable approximation.
<sjl>
the actual answer is 1000
<sjl>
infinity doesn't seem like a reasonable approximation of 1000 to me
<Zhivago>
Where does 1000 come from?
<pillton>
The error message tells you what is going on. Log converts the value (expt 10 1000) to a double float and it cannot represent the value.
<sjl>
it's the log base 10 of 10^1000
<Bike>
we know
<pillton>
Does sjl know?
<sjl>
Yes
<pillton>
So what is there to discuss?
<sjl>
I was wondering if the standard permits this
<Bike>
whether this is okay behavior to have.
<pierpa>
usually the philosophy of any lisp is that when a correct answer can be computed, a function must return the correct answer. Otherwise raise an error. Obviously the correct answer can be computed in this case...
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<pierpa>
many many years ago Franz had a similar bug
<pierpa>
they fixed it after being told about it
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<pillton>
I'd say this is a bug. If you have a bignum class, then log needs to be defined.
<beach>
pierpa: You have been programming for too long in languages other than Common Lisp. :) You don't "raise" an error in Common Lisp, you "signal" an error.
<Bike>
defining it must be a pain tho
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<Bike>
in sbcl, for integers it does (coerce (/ (log2 number) (log2 base)) 'single-float) where log2 is... specifically set up to check whether there'd be a float overflow.
<pierpa>
beach: ouch :) point taken.
<Bike>
where the too-big version just skips off high bits. that's weird and interesting
<sjl>
That's my thinking too. If (typep x '(and number (not (satisfies zerop)))) then (log x) should return a result.
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<sjl>
interesting
<pillton>
You should be able to hack something together with log(ab) = log(a) + log(b).
<Bike>
that's what it does, yeah
<sjl>
yeah, I'll see if I can get it building and send a patch
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<Bike>
takes huge number = [like 60 bits]*2^whatever
<Bike>
approximately equal anyway
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<sjl>
Closer to equal than SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR :)
<pierpa>
definitely :)
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<beach>
As I recall, there are good ways of computing (lb x) where x is a number between 1 and 2. It is easy to get a good approximation anyway. Then perhaps a few Newton-Raphson iterations would work.
<pillton>
I guess it assumes the result can be expressed as double float.
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<sjl>
The spec says it's okay to return a single-float approximation. So I think that's a reasonable assumption
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<pillton>
I was thinking more of (log (expt 10 (1+ most-positive-double-float)) 10).
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<beach>
pillton: It looks to me like you are computing (floor most-positive-double-float) in every call, and that one allocates memory, no?
<pillton>
beach: Yes. I provided an illustration. Your optimization and tail call should be done.
<sjl>
assuming you've got the memory to allocate that bignum, I think the spec says it should return a single-float approximation of (1+ most-positive-double-float)
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<sjl>
Unfortunately I can't get ABCL's test suite working, and I don't think my laptop has the battery for many more compiles.
<sjl>
So I'll have to tackle this later.
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<beach>
How about this one for computing log base 2 of large integers: (defun my-log (x) (let ((n (- (integer-length x) 100))) (+ n (log (float (ash x (- n)) 1d0) 2))))
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<drmeister>
Hello - I'm getting this warning when I load ASDF - it's very detailed but I don't have a clue what is wrong. I have a recenter version of ASDF 3.2.0.1 and quicklisp is less than a year old as well.
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<easye>
drmeister: I think such warnings go away with asdf-3.3.1
<drmeister>
We have also made changes to the compiler over the last couple of months and something might be broken - but a codegen problem usually results in more severe issues.
<easye>
drmeister: quite welcome. You coming to ELS 2018?
<drmeister>
Yes
<easye>
Cool.
<drmeister>
Yes coming to ELS 2018
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<easye>
Yes, I am planning on making it. Haven't registered/bought tickets yet, but should have the money and will make the time.
<easye>
And hopefully ELS 2018 will kick my butt enough to get some engineering in on another ABCL release (although probably more like a stablizing abcl-1.5.1 than a abcl-1.6.0)
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<Xach>
I will be there too
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<Shinmera>
Nice.
* Xach
holds head in hands
<Xach>
why must there be a new failure in cl+ssl, unchanged for so long, today of all days :~(
* Xach
will make a new release today
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<drmeister>
Xach - great!
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<dim>
I think I should get organised and show up at the ELS 2018…
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<Xach>
dim: a solid plan
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<antoszka>
guys, do you remember what the fee for last year's ELS was? For students and regular attendees?
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<Shinmera>
No, but it'll be in the ballpark of 60€ and 120€ respectively.
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<Shinmera>
For this year I mean
<Shinmera>
Last year is a bad data point anyway because the colocation fucked with everything.
<AeroNotix>
will ELS be recorded on a higher bit rate potato this year?
<AeroNotix>
maybe like a sweet potato or something
<Shinmera>
Ask RavenPack, I guess. I think they're organising it.
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<stacksmith>
Good day everyone!
<phoe>
hey stacksmith
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<drmeister>
Xach: I found the problem in clasp that was leading to a problem with ASDF that was leading to a problem loading quicklisp.
<Xach>
drmeister: is there a short explanation?
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<drmeister>
When read-suppress was on, #. was returning (values) and so #-clisp #.(foo) #-(or ...) (bar) --> wouldn't evaluate (bar)
<drmeister>
It was a problem in the reader that I had put in there because I got it in my head that #.(foo) should return (values) when read-suppress was on and I had run with it.
<k-stz>
hey, I try to bitwise negate a number such that #b1100 -> #b0011 (to read twos complement from a binary memory), `lognot' doesn't solve this, am I missing something simple?
<Bike>
you also want to take the low bits.
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<Bike>
(ldb (byte 4 0) (lognot #b1100)) => 3
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<Bike>
conceptually, #b1100 could also be written #b01100, or #b0000000001100, or whatever. there's an infinite number of zeroes that also get negated
<Bike>
but you only care about the low four bits
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<k-stz>
Bike: thanks!
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<enviando>
Does anyone have a good guide on how to use Roswell? I'm trying to create a very simple shell script (automatically execute 4 commands with SBCL), but it keeps crashing and giving tons of debug data.
<Bike>
i mean, two's complement is with respect to some word size. you gotta specify what size, naturally.
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<k-stz>
Bike: I didn't catch on to the infinite bits part, now it makes perfect sense
<phoe>
enviando: create tickets on its Github page. That's the only working way I have figured out with Roswell dev team.
<enviando>
Okay. Thanks.
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<stacksmith>
phoe: it helps to speak Japanese at roswell and lem...
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<phoe>
stacksmith: they accept tickets written in English.
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<k-stz>
Is this result: (= (1- (expt 2 64)) (ldb (byte 64 0) -1)) implementation dependent?
<k-stz>
it hinges on -1 being represented as twos complement internally
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<rme>
all the logxxx functions act as though integers are two's complement. that's defined behavior.
<rme>
regardless of how they are represented internally
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<phoe>
but
<Bike>
-1 is definitely an integer with 1 bits in every position
<Bike>
that's defined
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<phoe>
so (ldb (byte 64 0) -1) will give you all ones
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<Bike>
so no, the result is not implementation independent.
<Bike>
er
<phoe>
and (1- (expt 2 64)) will, too
<Bike>
it is not implementation dependent.
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<k-stz>
that's good, thanks again
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<pfdietz>
The nice thing about integers in lisp is they are much closer to actual integers, not those mod N travesties you see in other languages.
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<k-stz>
the higher abstractions are great, yet, every now and then, one still needs to travel back down to the reality of fixed types and finite sizes
<phoe>
(declare (fixnum foo))
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<pjb>
k-stz: that's crazy talk. You want Turing Machines!
<pjb>
k-stz: if you consider our finite computers, then none of them is a Turing Machine (no infinite memory), and therefore none of our programming languages are Turing Complete!
<pjb>
What a shame!
<pjb>
So take those infinite cl:integer, and be happy in a temporary illusion of Turing completeness!
<phoe>
pjb: why stop at Turing machines?
<phoe>
we want nondeterministic Turing machines, so we can find solutions to NP-complete problems in polynomial time!
* phoe
goes to #lispcafe with that
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<aeth>
I like the way CL handles integers. By default, it's inefficient but safe. If you restrict the integer to a small enough size, the compiler can optimize it. It's sometimes painful to do so, but you have to do it to have safe integers! In C, if you don't do very similar logic, you're writing fragile software!
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<fouric>
CL actually allows you to easily choose between safety in speed
<fouric>
in C, the default is speed, and safety is *possible* but clumsy
<k-hos>
does lisp have anything like Cs switch statement, or could I emulate that kind of thing with a cond inside a macro
* fouric
has not written a *ton* of C code but that's been his experience so far
<phoe>
fouric: there's no (declare (optimize safety)) in C
<aeth>
With unsigned integers, if you want wrapping you can use mod with some power of 2 and that will potentially be optimized well by the compiler.
<fouric>
phoe: i mean you can manually insert checks
<phoe>
k-hos: switch, do you mean with fallthrough?
<k-hos>
no just comparing one value against a table of others basically
<phoe>
it allows you to specify your custom test function
<aeth>
If you want something similar to case but different, write a macro over cond (or use a library that probably does that)
<aeth>
If you want something exactly like C's switch, I think you'd have to write the macro over tagbody?
<phoe>
yep, something like that
<k-hos>
I was planning on it, since the macro needs a variable number of arguments I didn't know how I would fill that cond out with them
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<phoe>
you could actually emulate a switch with a tagbody
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<phoe>
s/emulate/implement/
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<k-hos>
I don't know what those are
<aeth>
It's a fairly straightforward tagbody implementation
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<aeth>
k-hos: tagbody is a safe place for gotos, i.e. GO (the CL goto) is restricted to labels within the tagbody
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<aeth>
tagbody is for (1) implementing basic iteration macros like do (every implementation expands do to a let around a tagbody afaik) and (2) when everything else fails
<aeth>
If you want function semantics (which usually is preferable unless performance *really* matters), you can just use flet or labels. If you want something with identical semantics to C's switch so you can port Duffy's device, you want tagbody.
<k-stz>
tagbody is also useful to translate assembly code, with its jumping to labels, if the need ever arises...
<aeth>
Although do and the other dofoo forms have an implicit tagbody so you can also target do, which might be better, depending on what you're trying to do with gotos. Switch would be best with tagbody, though
<jasom>
tagbody/go is like a lexical version throw/catch
<aeth>
k-stz: Right. Just implement a register data structure, a memory data structure, and various "instruction" functions, then place them in tagbody, and you have pseudo-assembly afaik.
<aeth>
I guess the jump instructions would have to be macros, not functions, though.
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<Bike>
it's not like c switch with nontrivial fallthrough is super common to begin with.
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<k-hos>
I could probably just implement this as a list, since I am basically just checking if a character is in a set of characters or not
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<phoe>
k-hos: how big is your set of characters?
<k-stz>
aeth: I think the SICP book might describes something like that in its later chapters with scheme
<k-hos>
just whats on the keyboard plus control characters
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<Bike>
(find char "ndqiDNUP38Cf"), easy
<k-hos>
but it gets checked quite a bit
<stacksmith>
member
<phoe>
k-hos: go for an EQL hashtable if it contains more than 20 characters.
<k-hos>
thats what I have now, except I was trying to use \n style escapes :p
<phoe>
that is two characters
<k-hos>
yes I realize now
<phoe>
#\Newline is a single char in Lisp
<k-hos>
I was going to make a secondary function to check against #\ style characters
<phoe>
k-hos: *all* characters are #\ style characters
<k-hos>
so I would do something like (is-any atom #\newline #\space) ect
<k-hos>
Unless I am mistaken I can't just go sticking #\a in a string and expect it to be escaped
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<stacksmith>
#\ is a reader notation...
<stacksmith>
not the same as character \
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<k-hos>
I know
<phoe>
a string is an array of chars
<Bike>
you just make the string in a more complicated way than literally.
<Bike>
#.(format nil "asdf~c" #\Newline) for instance
<phoe>
(coerce '(#\c #\a #\t) 'string) ;=> "cat"
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<k-hos>
I wanted to avoid format
<Bike>
well, coerce then
<Bike>
it doesn't matter, it's a constant at compile time
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<pillton>
Xach: Thank you for #1457.
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<Xach>
pillton: It would be easier to do the latest release but iirc that was explicitly requested otherwise
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<pillton>
Xach: Ok. I will request that next time.
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<cleanslate>
I have small experience in scheme in the past, but I want to get back into functional with some variety of lisp. How should I go about choosing which to learn?
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<Xach>
cleanslate: this channel is for those who have chosen common lisp. to (most of) us it is the best choice.
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<Xach>
cleanslate: i'd recommend looking at some books that introduce different lisps and see which you like best.
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<Xach>
cleanslate: for common lisp, i liked Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming, both of which are freely available online.
<cleanslate>
I was looking at PAIP as a way of getting into it
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<cleanslate>
frankly I'm impressed with Common Lisp's longevity
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<Xach>
it is like a fine wine, or a hot dog that fell behind the refrigerator
<k-hos>
you're saying it has.... a culture?
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<k-stz>
in the case of the hot dog, it would be a bacterial culture
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