<pjb>
megachombass: in particular, Toy Language Byte Code Compiler. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/QMakibYYZRg/fgQulr5b4BwJ shows both a compiler to lap assembler, a lap assembler to VM byte code, and the VM.
<pjb>
megachombass: notice at the bottom of the post, how a call to (assemble (compile-program …)) --> #(0 0 6 0 42 0 0 1 4 25 0 2 0 0 2 4 21 0 1 6 5 0 2 6 5 0 3 6 0 4 6 7)
<pjb>
megachombass: the VM called by execute interprets this byte code.
<megachombass>
hum
<megachombass>
i see plus or less
<megachombass>
but kinda imposible for me to implement that in 23 hours remaining
<pjb>
I gave those links several days ago.
<megachombass>
knowing that i would need to translate that bytecode for my vm to read it
<pjb>
Well, at this point it's probably wiser to only make cosmetic changes, if any.
<megachombass>
pjb: i know, and seems several days im still on the VM xD
<megachombass>
thats why i think the best is to have a "perfect VM" atleast
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<pjb>
No problem. Define "perfect".
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<megachombass>
well, by perfect in my case is : " does essentially the same as the already existing code, but without beeing the existing code. make a change to the (move (loc - 1 0) :RO) that does weird operations with the FP that i cant explain myself. maybe do some functionallity changes on the VM, that can still load and execute the asm code without changing the asm code given as param (exept for the loc thing))"
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<megachombass>
pjb: btw, i will never be thankfull enough for the help you giving me. really, my university career depends on this, and having people really passionated of progamming, whiling to spend their time on newbies like me, its beatifull
<megachombass>
hope one day, when i will be senior dev, i will always have an irc open to do the same
<megachombass>
right now i cant teach much xd
<pjb>
You ust need to become passionate about programming yourself.
<pjb>
j
<megachombass>
i am, but i tend to abandonate quickly when i dont understand something
<megachombass>
when well explained, i understand everything
<pjb>
So you only need to explain it to yourself well, so you may understand it.
<pjb>
Use google, read, learn, and give yourself a good explanation!
<megachombass>
thats what i usually do
<megachombass>
but with >"old technologies"< that i cant find handy examples , its hard
<pjb>
I don't know what you're refering to here.
<ebrasca>
I like someone explain me how to port mezzano to POWER9 cpu architecture and talos II.
<pjb>
In the case of lisp since it exists since 60 years, there are a lot of handy examples!
<ebrasca>
I have never write any assambly.
<megachombass>
for me lisp is like from another era
<megachombass>
specially ive been acepted on a internship in japan for this summer, where i will work on some android dev and web services based on REST
<pjb>
And basically, they're only about Common Lisp, we've not started a list about Lisp in general!
<pjb>
megachombass: great. Learn Japanese well, so you may be able to read robotics and AI papers!
<megachombass>
im already learning it! among the 100000 things im learning atm
<megachombass>
but to go to japan, imma need to pass the VM assignment xd
<pjb>
megachombass: well read at least those two posts I linked above.
<megachombass>
he told us friday that the most important was to have a compiler that compiles fibo and fact. i told him "we" only had a VM he said well, you're kinda fked, and that we had untill sunday to send him our work
<megachombass>
i guss that if the VM is perfect,i will get atleast a 10/20
<pjb>
You need that you still have to write the compiler?
<pjb>
s/need/mean/
<megachombass>
not exactly
<megachombass>
i told him "we have a fraction of compiler"
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<megachombass>
i could make the compiler and send him
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<megachombass>
thats not ilegal
<megachombass>
but how on earth imma build a fact fibo compiler that fits my VM in 1 day
<megachombass>
if i take it from internet i would be fked as they have anticheat tools
<pjb>
Oh, the compiler must run in the VM?
<megachombass>
must run in A vm
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<megachombass>
not specially the one we've been twering around
<megachombass>
but must fit in a vm with registers
<pjb>
Yes. So your VM must be a lisp VM, not just an arithmetic VM.
<megachombass>
yes, its not a lisp vm. we have to do a vm + or - like that one
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<megachombass>
well wait, going to give you another link
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<megachombass>
nvm i have lost it
<megachombass>
let me check your links
<pjb>
So you need a specification of the lisp VM; So you write in lisp a compiler that compiles lisp to lap assembler. Then you write an assembler that assembles the lap assembler to the lisp VM bytecode. And you need to implement the lisp VM. Then you can compile everything with CL. Then once you have a running VM, you compile your compiler with the compiler you compiled in CL, thus obtaining your compiler in lap assembler. You asse
<pjb>
it, and you load it in the lisp VM. then you can run it on itself.
<megachombass>
ye, he told us the ultimate goal was to be able to "compile the compiler"
<pjb>
Anyways, as I said earlier, your current VM can't be used to run the compiler on itself, since it has no instruction to deal with things like (move (loc -1 0) :r0). The instructions it has are only move, incr, decr, add, sub, mult, div, jmp, cmp, jg, jge, jeq, jl, jle, jne, jsr, push pop rtn.
<pjb>
It doesn't even have I/O, so you cannot implement a lisp reader.
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<pjb>
megachombass: you're not there at all.
<megachombass>
wait a sec, the vm does handle (move (loc -1 0) :r0)
<megachombass>
it have the functions in it
<megachombass>
for that case
<pjb>
Write in assembler a program that will generate move instructions!
<megachombass>
well, the ASM for fibo does have moves :(MOVE (:DIESE 2) :R0)
<pjb>
Write in assembler a program that takes two arguments a and b will generate for example, the binary code for a function that takes 1 argument x and computes a*x+b.
<pjb>
It should be called this way: (move (:diese 3) :r0) (push :r0) (move (:diese 2) :r0) (push :r0) (jsr (@ generate)) (move (:dieze 1) :r1) (push :r1) (jsr :r0)
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<megachombass>
and why whould the VM right cant handle those moves?
<megachombass>
right now*
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<pjb>
the problem is in what @generate will return in :r0
<pjb>
What will you compute and put in :r0?
<megachombass>
in my understadning, jsr will go to the generate function, does not specially put something in :R0
<pjb>
the generate function must return a new function (more precisely, a closure). Let's say that it returns it in the register :r0. What will you put there?
<pjb>
What can you compute with the instructions of the VM to be stored in r0?
<pjb>
Jotice that I use (jsr :r0) next. So what should r0 contain?
<pjb>
s/J/N/
<megachombass>
th result of generate?
<pjb>
Which is WHAT?
<megachombass>
and i add his adress to the stack?
<pjb>
the address to WHAT?
<megachombass>
we dont know yet, as we have to execute the generate function to know
<pjb>
No, you have to WRITE the function generate.
<pjb>
I'm trying to show you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to write a function generate that does what is required!
<megachombass>
hum
<pjb>
The function generate will return the address of the generated function.
<megachombass>
could we modify the VM to actually take this into account?
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<pjb>
When we run (jsr :r0), the PC will be loaded with the content of r0. Now the question is what should be stored at this address? Ie, at the address of the generated function?
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<megachombass>
it should be the entry of the function, aka the defun part
<megachombass>
like at the adress of pc returned by R0, it should contain (defun generate)
<megachombass>
or something like this
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<dmiles>
in a WAM VM it might have (trust generate) :P
<pmc_>
Why do I get a warning in SBCL when I type at the toplevel: (setf x 'a) ?
<dmiles>
(means that the next instruction promises to be the trustworthy code of generate :P
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<pjb>
megachombass: the memory cell at that address must contain (entreefonction). How do you write a function such as @generate, to store (entreefonction) in memory?
<Bike>
pmc_: cos you haven't told it what x is. doesn't it say something like that? "undefined variable" maybe?
<pjb>
megachombass: you have move :dieze, add sub mul div cmp to do it!
* dmiles
apologizes )
<pjb>
megachombass: notice that load-vm is written in Common Lisp, not in assembler. You cannot write load-vm in your VM assembler!
<pmc_>
bike: oh, so I have to do (defparameter x 'a) ?
<pjb>
megachombass: you have two alternative: either you move your VM toward your assembly, adding data types and instructions to deal with Sexp in the VM, or you must write an assembler that converts the sexps into numbers and only numbers.
<Bike>
pmc_: something like that, yes.
<pjb>
and run-vm must only deal with numbers, since that's all that your VM can process!
<megachombass>
i believe its better to move VM towards assembly
<pmc_>
bike: thanks
<megachombass>
it will add more functionalities to the VM (as i have not added much code to the actual vm......)
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<pjb>
megachombass: if you choose the later option, you should notice that if you want to use the same compiler generating the same assembler, you will need to implement in your VM that works only with numbers, a lisp VM, ie. you will have to implement functions such as CONS, CAR, CDR, NULL, INTERN, READ, etc…
<pjb>
megachombass: this is what is done by what we call "native lisp compilers".
<pjb>
megachombass: if you choose the earlier option, then you can keep most of the current compiler and assembler, since you have a lisp VM. This is similar to the clisp "lisp byte code compiler".
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<megachombass>
defintivly option 1
<megachombass>
if i had time, option 2 would be great
<pjb>
megachombass: in either case, we're not talking about 0.2 BTC. It's rather something like 20,000 BTC, to find somebody with a time machine to send you back last month.
<megachombass>
well
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<megachombass>
and what can be done
<megachombass>
for cheap
<megachombass>
in the remaining time i have
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<pjb>
(assuming 20 million USD is what it takes for a 1-month time travel, but I could be wrong, it could be 200 million or 2 billions).
<megachombass>
im willing to pay for something half decent i cant send to teacher tomorrow
<pjb>
megachombass: You have barely the time to write the specifications and a design sketch for your system.
<pjb>
Basically because they used a module without reading the specifications.
<pjb>
The interface between modules is not performed at the level of the API. It's performed at the level of the specifications.
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<megachombass>
well, thanks god im not trying to make a rocket
<megachombass>
and in my case, if it explodes mid air, aint a big deal
<megachombass>
right now it barely takes off xD
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<aeth>
megachombass: How much time do you have?
<megachombass>
untill tomorrow midnight
<pjb>
less than 22 hours.
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<aeth>
How many of those hours can you spend on this project?
<megachombass>
well
<megachombass>
i have to sleep
<megachombass>
so 22-8
<megachombass>
14h
<aeth>
I'm guessing only 10-12 productive hours in that period, at most.
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<megachombass>
y
<megachombass>
knowing im a pure garbage in lisp
<megachombass>
i will , by myself , do 2 tiny mods in 12h
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<aeth>
Imo, anticipate the worst case and schedule a way to try and finish the project in 8-9 hours.
<megachombass>
by myself i cant
<ebrasca>
megachombass: Good luck
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<megachombass>
all significative changes have been done by pjb
<pjb>
design and implement a VM able to run self modifying programs. Design and implement the assembler and compiler so that it can be targetted to that VM.
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<megachombass>
like in 1 hour he has done more than me in a week
<pjb>
Basically, you have to know that very well, you have to know lisp very well, and you have to start from scratch.
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<megachombass>
exactly, and i know the vm comme ci comme ca, im a dumbass in lisp, and if i start from sracth i will do nothing in the remaining time
<pjb>
I would say, there would be a 0.6 probability I could do it in 22 hours, but I would ask form more than 2 BTC, and even with the money I'm not sure I'm motivated to do it. And unfortunately, I'd have to sleep too, so…
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<pjb>
So this is where the lesson is taught. Start your projects early!
<megachombass>
and i clearly dont have 2 btc
<megachombass>
beeing a stundent xd
<megachombass>
THEREFORE, i cant maybe purchase a couple of hours of your time to work on whats already been done?
<megachombass>
i could*
<pjb>
Happily, you don't need a user interface or a debugger!
<megachombass>
like 1 hours of yours is 1 week of mine
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<ebrasca>
megachombass: Everyone need to lear some day.
<aeth>
You need to (1) understand the subject, (2) be comfortable in the language being used, and (3) have written something similar before.
<ebrasca>
megachombass: I am doing mi fat32 XD.
<aeth>
In order to do it in a day.
<megachombass>
yep
<megachombass>
pjb meets like all the requirements
<megachombass>
almost wondering if he is not my teacher xd
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<aeth>
The problem is that the only people who meet the requirements are people who won't do people's homework, especially not for free.
<Bike>
if you're worried about being kicked out of university, paying someone to do your homework seems like a bad move to me
<megachombass>
well actually noone will never know that i purchased it
<aeth>
(and if you want to find some shady Internet figure to pay, doing it in a public channel is not a good idea)
<Bike>
the perfect crime
<megachombass>
as if he makes the code, it wont be on the internet
<aeth>
This isn't a major language, you probably won't be able to find anyone.
<ebrasca>
What if he get your money and don't make any code?
<aeth>
ebrasca: Then megachombass can issue a chargeback on the BTC
<aeth>
oh wait
<ebrasca>
Yea
<megachombass>
well, in this case i will be scammed and kicked of the university
<megachombass>
double fked
<megachombass>
but atleast i would've tried
<zazzerino>
good thing you're not on the internet right now
<megachombass>
zazzerino: why you say so?
<ebrasca>
megachombass: Pay me now what you can , I can make your code trust me.
<megachombass>
ebras
<megachombass>
ebrasca: :P
<ebrasca>
Yea trust some random guy in some IRC.
<zazzerino>
megachombass: He's trying to rip you off. I'll do it for just 1 BTC
<aeth>
The thing is, programmers can make a lot of money with their talents without having to resort to shady internet deals.
<megachombass>
pjb: common, just a couple hours of your time! you save my life, and you earn some money
<megachombass>
really, im fking desesperate
<aeth>
At this point, the best you can do is partial credit, and try to write as much as possible and do as much as possible.
<aeth>
Buy coffee, go for a walk, think about how to implement as much as you can in 8-10 hours of work. Keep in mind that a sleep break will probably make you more productive, so don't pull an all-nighter.
<megachombass>
aeth:
<megachombass>
the thing is i dont really know what and how to implement from my VM
<megachombass>
right now, adding just a couple functionalities to the VM, make the code nicier would be enough
<aeth>
You need to follow a strict schedule right now. Break up the issue into features. Estimate the time. Find out what you think you can do in 8-10 hours. Prioritize on getting it as complete as possible. Ignore polish. Any optimizations or polish can just be commented in a note that you could update later, when you have time, if you need to use that program later.
<aeth>
Don't think about nicer, just think about crossing items off of a checklist.
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<aeth>
#lisp will tell you the proper, idiomatic way of doing things. That is nice. That will save you time maintaining the code and make your code readable to the community. What you need, though, is a giant mess of spaghetti as long as you can get it done.
<megachombass>
well, in any case, im off to sleep now
<megachombass>
will come back tomorrow for more begging xd
<ebrasca>
megachombass: good nigth
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<zazzerino>
megachombass: Good luck with your assignment. Keep in mind the more effort you put into this, the more people will be willing to help you.
<ebrasca>
I like to make 1 function from 3 : read-dir-from-cluster , remove-dir-from-cluster and write-metadata.
<ebrasca>
They are almost equal , but I can't find how to unifi them.
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<aeth>
Oh, and for the record, my advice (create technical debt! just meet the features!) is only applicable when you have less than a day to do more than a week's worth of work. It's terrible advice under normal circumstances.
<aeth>
If you do this for most projects you'll find that it's easier to rewrite it than to improve it. And that's a really bad thing.
<ebrasca>
aeth: I understand I have 3 similar functions in mi code and don't know how to refactor them.
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<aeth>
Oh, and lots of coffee helps for the last day of an impossible deadline.
<aeth>
(Unless you already drink too much coffee.)
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<aeth>
Oh, and don't make panic coding huge projects at the last minute a habit, though. Not only do you create terrible programs, you also can only get away with this a few times in your life.
<pjb>
ebrasca: yes, it looks like you have a common loop in those functions. You could put it in a high order function to which you would pass the body as a closure.
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<cryptomarauder>
I just want to thank the entire lisp community for NOT using camelCase. There are a few exceptions but generally that schizophrenic code style hasn't infected the holy order of the knights of lambda calculus. *tips hat*
<warweasle>
cryptomarauder: That's only possible because of lisp itself. That whole '-' sign being a math thing and all...
<pjb>
ebrasca: something like: (map-cluster (lambda (i name …) …) cluster) or (docluster ((i name) cluster) …)
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<warweasle>
Only lisp could transend mathematics itself.
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<cryptomarauder>
warweasle: that's true. I think I was lead to sensible style when I read the style guide of the Linux kernel. Ill admit, im a bit of a Torvalds fanboy. But really that's because hes nearly always right which is rare. Rare like Theo de Raadt being wrong.
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<aeth>
Proper camelCase in CL would be worse than camelCase in most languages.
<aeth>
you'd have to write fooBar like |fooBar|
<aeth>
otherwise it just becomes FOOBAR
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<warweasle>
aeth, That would be FOOBAR
<warweasle>
Programming question: In your favorite language, write a program to make a string all upper case....
<aeth>
I would argue, though, that if you're going to start escaping things, might as well use real spaces instead of camelCase. (defclass |foo bar factory| ...)
<aeth>
Only Common Lisp can scale to truly long class names. Java has nothing on CL here.
<pjb>
aeth: there's even the :invert option, but I prefer :preserve.
<aeth>
pjb: (1) I wouldn't want to program in a project that requires doing that to the readtable. (2) You'd have to have a lower case alias for everything or you just made your program even more unreadable than merely using camelcase
<aeth>
But, yes, valid
<aeth>
I shouldn't have said "you'd have to write", I should have said "you would probably write"
<pjb>
aeth: actually case sensitivity is nice. C uses it. Modula-2 uses it. Most languages use it.
<pjb>
Anyways, good night!
<aeth>
CL has a lot less of a need for case-sensitivity because of its many namespaces for things afaik.
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<aeth>
pjb: good night
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<asarch>
You can check the sample chapter in Amazon
<asarch>
That book is a lie!
<beach>
I don't think I would like that book.
* |3b|
thinks it is an OK simplification if it succeeds at its goal of making it interesting to get started
<asarch>
Ah, touche!
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* |3b|
has the impression it tries to present (lisp) programming as "interesting/fun thing you might want to investigate more on your own" as opposed to "boring/difficult thing that must be pounded into your head by authority figures", which seems like a good goal :)
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<|3b|>
hopefully those it convinces would then be motivated to go beyond the simplifications
<beach>
I am not saying the book is bad. I am saying I personally don't like that style.
<beach>
It is perhaps a generational kind of thing.
<beach>
Just the cover makes me not want to open it.
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<whoman>
why is it so expensive ?
<whoman>
it is a great book
<beach>
whoman: So that the publishing company can become rich at the expense of the author.
<whoman>
the art style is personal, very well done. its inspired realm of racket but i havent seen that
<asarch>
If a book would cost, for example, $100 USD. How much exactly do you earn from every book?
<beach>
40 € at amazon.fr
<|3b|>
does .mx have some different interpretation of $ ? prices seem odd there in general if interpreted as USD
<beach>
I think you are right about that.
<beach>
asarch: A few $ at most.
<asarch>
40 € for every book?!!!
<|3b|>
randomly clicking around front page, razor blades for $99
<asarch>
Wow!!!
<asarch>
That's great!
<beach>
asarch: The author makes a few $ at most.
<asarch>
~10%
<beach>
I was quoting the price of the book in different countries.
<asarch>
D'oh! Sorry
<beach>
asarch: That is why I use self publishing instead. The margin is higher, and I can set the price myself (it has to be higher than the printing cost).
<asarch>
It seems that nowadays is more profitable to become a YouTuber than a writer :-(
<|3b|>
ok, apparently peso uses $ also :/
<beach>
|3b|: That's what I was guessing.
<asarch>
$1USD = ~$20MXP
<|3b|>
ok, that makes sense then :)
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<asarch>
"Programming languages teach you not to want they cannot provide" —Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp
<asarch>
The best quote I ever read!
<beach>
It is also ungrammatical.
<asarch>
s/to want/to what what/
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<whoman>
what
<asarch>
Yeah, a typo. Sorry
<asarch>
Programming languages teach you not to want what they cannot provide
<dmiles>
anyhow i just updating the 1995 files to use #:system instead of 'system
<phoe>
dmiles: maybe don't update the files
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<phoe>
if you're interpreting another lisp dialect, maybe just shadow IN-PACKAGE
<phoe>
with something that implements it as a function.
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<dmiles>
LarKC, CYC which used their own lisp dialects do impl as a function.. and a few years later 2001 when renamed to ECL.. it started doing "SYSTEM"
<dmiles>
(EcoLisp that is)
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<dmiles>
I am using EcoLisp to bootstrap my WAM-CL lisp as back in the old days EcoLisp had not C-ified everyhting yet the way ECL has
<dmiles>
"back when things were much simpler" :)
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<dmiles>
I think what happens is a developer will convert a .lisp function to .c .. get tired of converting that every build and start improving it from C while erasing the original .lisp
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<dmiles>
so even if you grep the source repostiory the .lisp function is way behind the improvments maintained in C
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<shrdlu68>
Good afternoon, fellow sentient beings!
<phoe>
GOOD MORNING, FELLOW HUMAN.
<shrdlu68>
I've been messing around with compression, and I'm pleased that I've written something that appears to beat gzip in terms of compression ratio. It's based on a simple binary arithmetic coder.
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<Folkol_>
Sounds good, shrdlu68! Did you try different gzip compression levels? How do they compare in speed?
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<dmiles>
erm sorry a HSPG parser
<dmiles>
such a program can and shold be combined with a bl;ackboard
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<stylewarning>
Idk maybe maybe not
<stylewarning>
What I want is far more humble: make old code work again
<dmiles>
"AFAIK they built some huge DB of common knowledge with some reasoning skills" <- very close.. what they built was a Knowledge Representation language that was ideal for how programs would share data
<dmiles>
(of course along with what you said.. they just dont promote that part of the project.. which btw was the only reason for funding)
* dmiles
is just very irritated at cycorp right now
<stylewarning>
dmiles: I’m irritated with a big bag of companies!
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<dmiles>
anyhow that has been my lifes mission for a long time.. to combine those old AI programs into a Inference engine
<dmiles>
just recreating what i've used at various publicly funded projects
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<dmiles>
(i used the word "recreation" only so to say that there is not much technological innovation required)
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<megachombass>
hello to all! the help beggar is back again for a final round!
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<stylewarning>
Ask away
<megachombass>
well, i want my code to do the same thing, but written in different way: https://codeshare.io/GkwJYA
<megachombass>
i want to add redundancies and things like that
<stylewarning>
That loads an ad on mobile but doesn’t load any code
<megachombass>
want to modify it as much as posible
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<jackdaniel>
why?
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<phoe>
to make the professor not notice that this is not original contentf
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<megachombass>
exactly
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<megachombass>
so here i call to your originality to add some useless but fancy things in it
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<jackdaniel>
so basically you ask us to help you cheating?
<phoe>
yes, he was
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<megachombass>
not really cheating, just to be creative
<Shinmera>
It's still derivative and thus likely prohibited.
<Shinmera>
Not to mention morally objectionable in any case.
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<megachombass>
pjb: hi!
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<pjb>
megachombass: hi!
<pjb>
megachombass: you know, nowadays, you just cannot copy anything or get help from any programmer without the teacher being able to EASILY and trivially know it.
<megachombass>
well, he cant know what ive done by myself and what not
<megachombass>
right now, i wont add more functionalities
<megachombass>
just code it propelly
<megachombass>
whats wrong with this let syntax (let (vm (make-vm 1000)) (vm2 (make-vm 1000)) fibo1 fibo2 fact1 fact2)
<pjb>
megachombass: current DNA-research, machine learning and artificial intelligence techniques exist to easily 1- match source code with other source code to determine their common ancestor, whatever the transformation you make on it (notably, renaming, things you can do with replace-regexp, are completely transparent), and 2- identify the AUTHOR of a chunk of code!
<megachombass>
+, teacher got absolutly no idea what is our coding level, even wonder if he know who i am
<pjb>
megachombass: basically, if your teacher cares, he will run the program on the code, and he will know, line by line, who wrote it, what git repo it comes from, etc.
<_death>
you should also know that the lisp community isn't that big, that some professors reside here, and that this channel's log is publicly available
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<pjb>
megachombass: nothing is wrong in the syntax of: (let (vm (make-vm 1000)) (vm2 (make-vm 1000)) fibo1 fibo2 fact1 fact2)
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<pjb>
megachombass: now for the semantics, it probably doesn't try to do what you think.
<megachombass>
then i fked up somewhere ,let me recheck
<pjb>
megachombass: it means: create a variable named VM, bind it to NIL. create a variable named MAKE-VM, bind it to 1000. Call the function vm2, with as argument the result of the call of the function make-vm with as argument 1000. Ignore the result. Evaluate a free variable fibo1. Ignore the result. Evaluate a free variable fibo2. Ignore the result. Evaluate a free variable fact1. Ignore the result. Evaluate a free variable fact
<pjb>
megachombass: so, seriously, remember the first thing we told you: write it yourself!
<pjb>
Nothing!
<megachombass>
i have like what, 9 h left xd
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<megachombass>
and if i try to rewrite from scrath, 100% i end up doing the same thing
<pjb>
megachombass: just time to write an essay explaining what you've done, what problem you have, and make a planing indicating how much time you'd need to implement the project.
<_death>
oh, and don't forget the panopticon.. it's easy to forget about the panopticon
<pjb>
_death: what do you mean?
<megachombass>
if i send him an essay
<megachombass>
without code
<megachombass>
ill get a nice and gentle 0/20
<pjb>
megachombass: oh, true, if I was a lisp teacher, obviously I would already be on all the lisp irc channels, the lisp newsgroups, the lisp forums, and they'd be logged.
<pjb>
megachombass: notice how beach routinely ask people whether their new in #lisp, and check them in his logs…
<megachombass>
in any case its specified i couldn't get help tho
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<megachombass>
and to avoid banhammer, i will clearly specified (thanks to pjb for his help on this project, without him this wouldnt exist)
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<pjb>
megachombass: but seriously, at this point if you want to save your skin, writing a project report explaining the failure, how it occured, and what you could do to recover and complete the project (whatever time you'd need), is IMO the best option.
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<megachombass>
wich failure?
<pjb>
You didn't complete the project, implementing a VM able to run the compiler.
<ebrasca>
Good afternoon.
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<megachombass>
actually is not that
<megachombass>
actually is i didnt implement a compiler that produces code for the vm
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<phoe>
FLET ADD is not really readable for me. The function name ADD sounds like mathematical addition to me.
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<phoe>
Also in (defmacro do-cluster (fat32 cluster finally if-t &body if-nil) ...)
<phoe>
The lambda list seems weird. IF-T is a single form but IF-NIL is a &body.
<phoe>
;; Read long name
<phoe>
This should be a separate function.
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<beach>
ebrasca: You have blank lines in mysterious places.
<pjb>
:-)
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<beach>
ebrasca: Your LOOP clauses are not correctly indented. I suggest you use the slime-indentation contribution to get them right.
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<ebrasca>
beach: What do you mean with slime-indentation contribution?
<beach>
In my .emacs I have: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation))
<beach>
I mean the last item on that list.
<ebrasca>
beach: What do you mean with "You have blank lines in mysterious places." ?
<beach>
In Common Lisp code, there is usually one blank line between each top-level form and no blank lines anywhere else.
<beach>
So you have several blank lines in places that are not between top-level forms.
<beach>
And I don't see why you have them there, so they are mysterious.
<ebrasca>
I think it help to understand better my code.
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<beach>
ebrasca: Perhaps, but the problem is that you are submitting it for others to read. So then, you should make it such that it is easier for THEM to read, and the best bet is then to follow established conventions.
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<beach>
Oh, and the indentation of the arguments to MAP is wrong in one place.
<ebrasca>
I try to follow established conventions.
<beach>
I am sure you do.
<beach>
And I am just pointing out a few places where you aren't right now.
<pjb>
ebrasca: basically, if you need to insert a blank line in a function, it means you should refactor it, calling smaller functions.
<pjb>
ebrasca: then, you can also find a smart comment to insert on those blank lines ;-)
<pjb>
<beach>
ebrasca: COND has a value, so you can do (setf name (cond ((string= ...)...)))
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<beach>
ebrasca: STACK is a list of things, right?
<beach>
Then use '() to initialize it. NIL means either the Boolean value false, or some default value. Not the empty list.
<beach>
ebrasca: '() is the empty list 'nil is the symbol NIL, () is the empty parameter list, and NIL, like I said, is a Boolean or a default value.
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<beach>
On a deeper level, I find it confusing the way your macro introduces variables, such as NAME that then occur without context when the macro is called. It suggests that the macro does not correspond to a very good abstraction.
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<ebrasca>
beach: I don't understand your last sentence . what context?
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<ebrasca>
beach: My loops lock better with slime-indentation.
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<asarch>
How would you run a system command from Lisp?
<pjb>
ebrasca: so you do read-only? No write-file?
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<ebrasca>
pjb: There is some write opetations done.
<ebrasca>
pjb: I am working now on write operations for FAT32.
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<ebrasca>
pjb: You can write , resize and delete with some limitations.
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<pjb>
ok.
<pjb>
THanks.
<beach>
ebrasca: I guess I can be more specific after you put in comments describing what each function and macro does. That way, I can more easily tell whether they represent good abstractions.
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<ebrasca>
read-dir-from-cluster return all files/directories in directory.
<ebrasca>
remove-dir-from-cluster write byte #xE5 to all segments of one file/directori.
<ebrasca>
#xE5 idicate it is deleted.
<ebrasca>
write-metadata write some metadata like file-size , last-write-date to file/directory.
<ebrasca>
beach: ^
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<beach>
OK, I am looking for a more detailed description. Like the type and role of each parameter, especially those of do-cluster. And I am looking for a kind of contract for it. Obviously it seems like it introduces variables such as NAME, CHECKSUM, etc. How does the body (bodies?) use those variables. What are their values, in each iteration. What is FINALLY, IF-T, IF-NIL and why are they named that way? etc, etc, etc.
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<beach>
It looks like sort-name is only available in IF-NIL. Why?
<beach>
What is it? etc, etc.
<ebrasca>
beach: IF-T is for what is diferent in if if it is t
<ebrasca>
IF-NIL is sort-name of FAT32 files/directories
<beach>
I am not looking for a one-liner here in the channel. I am looking for a comment or a docstring, or both, that I can compare with the code.
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<beach>
Oh, so IF-T and IF-NIL are FAT32-defined names?
<beach>
That doesn't sound right to me.
<beach>
Anyway, I need to go. Time to go cook dinner for my (admittedly small) family.
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<beach>
It seems I have a few more minutes. I have no idea what you mean by "IF-T is for what is diferent in if if it is t"
<beach>
"in if", in what "if"?
<beach>
You mean the IF inside the macro body?
<beach>
like the (if (= #x0F ...) ...?
<ebrasca>
yea
<beach>
If that is the case, I am now convinced thet do-cluster is not a good abstraction. Abstractions should be possible to understand by reading the name and the parameters (and the comments to those parameters), not what is inside it.
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<ebrasca>
Maybe better names are : long-dir-name-diff dir-name-diff .
<beach>
So, you are basically saying "Hey, macro user, in order to know how to use this macro, you need to read the code for it. In fact, you need to read the code for it just in order to understand why the parameters are named the way they are".
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<beach>
I don't know. I would have to wait for your docstrings and comments to tell.
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<ebrasca>
beach: Is it more easy to understand now?
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<ebrasca>
beach: Are you here?
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<beach>
It is too late for me. I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family. I'll look tomorrow morning (UTC+1).
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<ebrasca>
beach: Ok
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<aeth>
ebrasca: From a previous conversation here on docstrings, I came up with this rule for my projects: "Docstrings for functions and methods should mention the inputs, the outputs, and the side effects."
<aeth>
so e.g. your read-file currently says "Return data buffer of file", but that's only the outputs part (except, I guess it mentions the variable file?)
<aeth>
In particular, it's unclear what the variable fat32 does.
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<ebrasca>
aeth: It is fat32 partition data.
<ebrasca>
aeth: How to manage multi line docstrings , or make 1 line docstrings?
<aeth>
I think multi-line docstrings are usually just indented poorly.
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<aeth>
The ones I've seen usually have the first line line up with the function indentation and then the rest aren't indented.
<pjb>
the problem is that the string itself is indented. SO when multiline, I usually start it with a newline (and end it similarly).
<ebrasca>
pjb: What do you mean?
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<aeth>
ebrasca: " RET type your documentation RET type your documentation RET type your documentation RET "
<aeth>
(I think.)
<ebrasca>
mmm all lines start in column 0
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<ebrasca>
aeth: do you mean that for multiline docstrigs? ^
<aeth>
Notice that the first " lines up with the source indentation and then the rest start at column 0
<aeth>
ebrasca: Side effects would be on something like format, where what format t does depends on *standard-output*
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<aeth>
Side effects would also be if you modify an input data structure.
<aeth>
like e.g. map-into
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<ebrasca>
mmm there is more docstring than code ...
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<ebrasca>
I have read good code is better than documentation.
<phoe>
no.
<aeth>
Okay, I'm actually not sure if interacting with an outside global is a side effect or an input, actually.
<phoe>
people want to know what your library does without reading the code.
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<aeth>
I think setting it might be a side effect, but reading it might be an input. So my format example might be bad.
<aeth>
But I guess FORMAT does interact in a non-functional way with that variable.
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<aeth>
ebrasca: In some sense, "good code is better than documentation" is true, but not in the way you think it is. I think it applies more to comments than to docstrings. If you have to comment some part of your code heavily, you can probably just write it better and not have to comment that part.
<aeth>
But you can't really do that with variable names themselves unless you make their names very long and ugly.
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<ebrasca>
aeth: How much is very long?
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<aeth>
There is nothing stopping you from writing a mini-hyperspec in docstrings, complete with examples, etc. People would probably like that. You would probably need some markup convention for that, though. e.g. Python uses reStructuredText and Java uses JavaDoc
<oleo>
evening
<aeth>
What I gave is the minimum documentation you need to give in a docstring, not the maximum.
<aeth>
Doing something equivalent to docstrings in variable names would (1) capture only the minimum part, (2) look ugly, (3) violate CL style guidelines
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<aeth>
ebrasca: Well, some programmers in other programming languages used concise conventions so they could have their self-documenting variable names while not greatly lengthening their variable names. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation
<aeth>
And it's quite possibly the most hated coding style you can use.
<aeth>
(And it doesn't give anywhere near as much information as a well-written docstring.)
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<puchacz>
hi, in CFFI, how do I define something like this pls?
<puchacz>
void(*)(void*)
<puchacz>
I don't know C so I don't even know what it means
<puchacz>
like here: void sqlite3_result_text16(sqlite3_context*, const void*, int, void(*)(void*));
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<puchacz>
I can see in SQLITE source code it is defined as
<Bike>
borei: point one, don't quote it. point two, not all types are specializers. that type is not a specializer.
<aeth>
ebrasca: You have to have docstrings for every exported function in most styles. For the other functions, it depends on the style.
<Bike>
puchacz: i know even less about that, but you should have support available.
<aeth>
ebrasca: Small functions should have small docstrings, though. At least in general.
<Bike>
borei: defmethod deals with classes and eql specializers.
<aeth>
ebrasca: You can probably fit everything on two lines for small functions.
<puchacz>
Bike: ok, thanks. I will mail them
<ebrasca>
aeth: But i think some names are self explanatori.
<ebrasca>
aeth: like check-boot-jmp or first-data-sector .
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<aeth>
Something like a make-foo could possibly be documented in one line: "Returns a newly allocated foo based on the filename file and the number number"
<aeth>
If it's not complicated, no need to make the documentation complicated.
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<aeth>
If you had a formal style for your docstrings, it would probably make them take up several lines at a minimum.
<ebrasca>
Documentation is hard , don't say it is not hard.
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<ebrasca>
But I sometimes don't remember what output some of my functions ...
<aeth>
The output is the most important part! (at least in CL)
<aeth>
A lot of the tile you might say things like "the number number" in your docstring because your variable name for the input is perfectly named. Sometimes people capitalize the names to make it look a little better, i.e. "the number NUMBER"
<aeth>
s/tile/time/
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<aeth>
But the output can definitely be surprising.
<ebrasca>
I don't like my fat32 implementation.
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<puchacz>
Bike: FYI, changing the argument type from :pointer to :int of sqlite3-result-text lets me pass -1 and it seems to work.....
<puchacz>
C is really relaxed about types :)
<Bike>
more like cffi has no way to say no
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<puchacz>
but it seems that C code is passing -1, straight integer there
<oleo>
since it was textual ?
<oleo>
verbatim -1 ?
<puchacz>
yes
<oleo>
hmmm
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<puchacz>
I think "casting" to function pointer does not do anything in C to actual bitpattern of data in memory..... but I may be wrong, as I don't know C
<oleo>
erm, afaik the layouts from lisp to C types are very different
<puchacz>
but -1 is translated in CFFI
<oleo>
other than that....C side itself is pretty complicated....
<oleo>
no idea
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<Bike>
puchacz: you are correct, that cast doesn't really have to do with the actual value.
<Bike>
also, you can ignore oleo.
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<puchacz>
Bike: which means then that I really can just pass -1 :-)
<Bike>
yes.
<puchacz>
(as you are confirming casting is really no-op at runtime)
<Bike>
that particular cast is.
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<pjb>
ebrasca: yes: basically all that you put in the docstring, you could put it in a declare.
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<pjb>
ebrasca: you only have to invent a language and declaim the declarations ;-)
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<ebrasca>
pjb: I have never read about declare function.
<pjb>
declare is not an operator.
<ebrasca>
???
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<Bike>
declare is a syntax thing. it only looks like an operator.
<ebrasca>
I have remember it is for safety , speed and types.
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<pjb>
You just need to declare the declarations you use.
<pjb>
Then of course, it may be useful to write tools processing those declarations…
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<TMA>
ebrasca: the main thing is that you can ignore most (if not all) of the declarations except for (declare (special ...))
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<_death>
TMA: not really, an implementation can ignore them, not a programmer
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<Bike>
yeah, a programmer can ignore anything they want. free will, baby
<_death>
I expected that comeback ;)
<Bike>
special is the only one with a straightforward semantic effect though
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<ebrasca>
I don't like someone to ignore my commands less some PC.
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<pjb>
This is why it's important to also write the tools that will interpret your custom declarations.
<pjb>
Then you can call them automatically in your build process, and fail when there are errors.
<pjb>
For example, those pre- and post-condition can be used to generate assertions and use them in tests or in the compiled code.
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<ebrasca>
pjb: I don't know hot to make someting like this.
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<ebrasca>
pjb: Thanks for your tips.
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<pjb>
ebrasca: for example, see common-lisp/lisp/stepper-functions.lisp:678
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<pjb>
I use the stepper declaration to disable the stepper in some functions that cannot be stepped (eg. the functions that are called from the stepper itself or that are too much of a bore to step into).
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<pjb>
ebrasca: elsewhere, I've used declare to declare commands (interactive functions). In emacs lisp, (interactive) is a declaration. In CL You write (declare (interactive)).
<pjb>
ebrasca: (of course, you can also use a macro such as defcommand in those cases, sometimes it's easier than to process declarations).
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<stylewarning>
hello friends
<jmercouris>
hello
<stylewarning>
jmercouris: how is nEXT going
<jmercouris>
stylewarning: Going pretty good, thank you for asking!
<jmercouris>
GTK release is out, working on a lot of internal stuff, and a new blog
<stylewarning>
neat, lmk when the blog is up
<jmercouris>
Will do!
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<aeth>
If someone was going to add a contract system to CL it would be nice for the type part of it to use type declarations in SBCL and any other CL that uses similar semantics and check-type for the majority of implementations.
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<mgsk>
jmercouris: seeing weird behaviour of tabs in gtk. Sometimes C-x b doesn't show any tabs, and C-[ shows empty pages. Aware of that?
<aeth>
(I'm assuming a contract system in CL would do both runtime type checking and compile time type checking.)
<jmercouris>
mgsk: I'm aware the GTK port is a huge hack :D
<mgsk>
jmercouris: dang!
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<jmercouris>
mgsk: That specific behavior I only knew parts of
<jmercouris>
I'm working on it, don't worry :)
<jmercouris>
Thank you for your report
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<mgsk>
jmercouris: :)
<jmercouris>
mgsk: as a quick aside, if c-x b doesn't show any tabs, type space, and then backspace, it'll refresh the table view, usually :D
<mgsk>
jmercouris: omg it works!
<jmercouris>
Lol yeah, stupid listener functions not getting invoked
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<mgsk>
jmercouris: after that, it goes the whole frame goes blank. No errors/warnings
<jmercouris>
Hmm, that is very mysterious
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<mgsk>
I wonder if it is my window manager? I will try with something normal like gnome
<jmercouris>
I don't think that should have an effect, though the stupidity of GTK has surprised me quite a bit :D
<isBEKaml>
"normal like gnome" :D
<jmercouris>
I was testing in i3 WM
<mgsk>
jmercouris: ah, so that won't be it then
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<mgsk>
Also C-x C-c isn't doing anything
<jmercouris>
Should be calling (gtk:leave-gtk-main)
<jmercouris>
maybe it is getting blocked by some other signal
<jmercouris>
it's too bad you don't have a mac, works like a dream on cocoa
<mgsk>
I do... with linux installed
<jmercouris>
except for using the legacy webkit wrappers on cocoa, hopefully with a new ffigen replacment that can be fixed
<mgsk>
:3
<jmercouris>
hahah nice :D
<isBEKaml>
"Hackinux"
<jmercouris>
I tried installing BSD on my macbook for dual boot, I ended up in tears from frustration
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<isBEKaml>
Surely, you shouldn't have problems installing any BSD on a Mac? Because Mac is derived from BSD?
<caffe>
more likely bootloader problems
* isBEKaml
is currently reading through Loving Lisp online and is bored
<jmercouris>
caffe: Correct
<jmercouris>
Plus a whole slew of driver issues
<isBEKaml>
Ah, bootloader issues. Just use BSD straight up... :D
<jmercouris>
darwin has diverged quite a bit from straight bsd, at least apple isn't freely handing out kexts
<isBEKaml>
Probably - I have never used a mac, too poor to own one
<p_l>
isBEKaml: The "BSDs" that most people recall aren't MacOS ancestors
<p_l>
OSX is derived from OPENSTEP which was derived from NEXTSTEP which is most closely related to OSFMK which is related to original "Mach Unix" in turn related to BSD4
<jmercouris>
these days though, technically a Mach kernel, I believe they use shared memory for IPC, which technically disqualifies it
<jmercouris>
I guess it is a "hybrid" kernel, whatever that means
<p_l>
jmercouris: it's Mach
<jmercouris>
I've heard arguments that it is not "pure" enough
<p_l>
also, Mach used shared memory for IPC since the very start
<p_l>
it's part of how it got a bad rep
<jmercouris>
Did it? I thought there was a different mechanism
<jmercouris>
some sort of strange message passing buffer or something
<caffe>
'hybrid' as in mach 2.5 vs mach 3
<caffe>
mach 3 is a true microkernel
<p_l>
jmercouris: message passing over bits of memory that were shared and unshared using MMU
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<p_l>
caffe: Mach hybridized further in later versions
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<caffe>
i think you mean XNU
<caffe>
which is based on mach 2.5
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<p_l>
OSFMK is sorta an amalgamation of Mach 3 and 4 by now, and that's the basis of XNU
<caffe>
no, 2.5 is
<p_l>
caffe: Apple seems to disagree
<p_l>
(they explicitly mention OSFMK 7.3 as basis)
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<p_l>
and while osfmk might have started on mach 2.5, it didn't stay there
<isBEKaml>
p_l: I didn't really read much into the MacOS (X) divergence. I knew there was NextStep somewhere in its heritage, but NS was derived from BSD line. I don't recall reading about OSFMK -- I'll look that up, thanks
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<caffe>
well 3 is certainly not hybrid
<p_l>
isBEKaml: NS was derived from Mach, and cross-pollinated with OSF/1 mostly, which was BSD-oriented "counter" to AT&T SysV
<caffe>
there is also no "mach 4"
<caffe>
so...
<caffe>
XNU still is a lot closer to 2.5 in design
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<p_l>
there's actually a Mach 4, because development didn't end when CMU released 3.0. OSFMK which started on 2.5, continued to take code from 3.0 and later projects, including a lot of contribution of their own. Mach 4.0 created also official interface for "colocation" i.e. starting servers in kernel space
<caffe>
take code, sure
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<caffe>
still, i can't help but see it as a fork of 2.5
<p_l>
after Mach 3, the research work turned towards more hybrid approaches, especially as Mach IPC security... was problematic for performance
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<p_l>
caffe: well, it did start out as one, and never went full retard^W3.0
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<p_l>
anyway, the closest BSD relationship that OSX has is OSF/1
<caffe>
i'm not sure a drop-in microkernel was ever a good fit for unix to begin with
<p_l>
down to using common kernel codebase (though I believe Apple changed a lot since then)
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<caffe>
which is why 2.5 ended up being more influential than 3
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<p_l>
yes
<p_l>
I think nobody except for GNU went seriously about creating "pure" Mach 3 system
<p_l>
OSFMK was a "pragmatic" system that didn't discard syscalls etc. and incorporated things from newer research, while post-CMU Mach4 project reintroduced formal apis for colocation
<p_l>
lol
<p_l>
sorry, wrong window :D
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