<squaanchi>
is there anything like spark or cassandra in lisp?
<aeth>
NoSQL DB in general?
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<rpg>
I think my colleagues have used MongoDB from lisp, but I'm afraid I don't know what API they used.
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<aeth>
I don't think there's a major modern NoSQL (or SQL) database written in Common Lisp. Most people who need a database afaik use postmodern to use PostgreSQL.
<aeth>
There are probably libraries that support the major NoSQLs, too.
<aeth>
Some databases are written in Java, which is roughly the performance of SBCL (it's hard to compare languages) so there's probably nothing stopping someone from writing a DB in Lisp.
<aeth>
squaanchi: One of those databases might be what you want. ^
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<aeth>
Too bad it's a mix between databases written in Lisp and bindings to other databases
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<jmercouris>
what are some key things to include in function docstrings?
<jmercouris>
e.g. what makes a good docstring?
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<jasom>
jmercouris: "How do I use this function"
<jasom>
that's the question a docstring should answer, with a secondary question of "when should I use this function"
<jasom>
if someone is looking at the docstring, they think they ought to use the function, but aren't sure how
<jmercouris>
When you say "how" what do you mean?
<jmercouris>
which args?
<jmercouris>
the expected behavior of the args?
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<jmercouris>
e.g. second arg should be an int, this integer moderates the function in this way
<jasom>
jmercouris: that's dependent on the function
<jmercouris>
and what is meant by "when"?
<aeth>
jmercouris: Input and output are a good place to start.
<aeth>
e.g. if there's a meaningful return value "Returns foo..." or "and returns foo..." probably should be in that docstring
<jmercouris>
should I treat my docstrings as blackboxes about the content of the function?
<jmercouris>
so that the docstring remains accurate even if the implementation changes?
<aeth>
What you really want to say are the inputs, outputs, and side effects.
<aeth>
I usually write that in prose, but you could probably get away with literally just listing those
<jasom>
jmercouris: they should *not* document how the function works, that belongs in comments.
<aeth>
Ideally, the way the actual function works should be obvious, even if you need to add helper functions (there's basically no penalty if you move stuff out into meaningfully named functions that are inline)
<jmercouris>
aeth: I thought declaring functions inline within a function form was a bad idea?
<aeth>
jmercouris: no, I mean move stuff to top-level helper functions that are obvious if some part of your function isn't obvious, rather than comment
<jmercouris>
jasom: Okay, so that is so far confirmed then :)
<jmercouris>
Okay
<jasom>
jmercouris: inputs/outputs/side-effects is a good checklist for "how do I use this function"
<jmercouris>
so let me make sure I understand what you are saying
<jmercouris>
if there is enough complexity that warrants a comment, you should probably abstract it out into a function?
<aeth>
I'm agreeing with jasom that "that belongs in comments", but then adding that imo if you do need to comment, you probably should break the function up
<aeth>
yes
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<jmercouris>
ok, I'll make that a standard thing then
<jmercouris>
inputs/outputs/side-effects
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<jmercouris>
though really we should be avoiding side effects I think, at least when possible
<jmercouris>
otherwise we can't easily prove the correctness of our systems
<jasom>
jmercouris: aeth is suggesting (foo bar baz (biff (boff buff))) ;; I can't just frobnotz bar and baz because sbcl's optimizer is dumbs --- instead: (frobnotz-efficiently-on-sbcl bar baz)
<aeth>
jmercouris: If you are mostly going to avoid side-effects, you might like the Scheme convention of ! when there are side effects present
<aeth>
That's a lot more obvious than a docstring
<Zhivago>
jasom: Perhaps that's something that would be better solved by adding a compiler-macro for sbcl rather than changing the code.
<jmercouris>
I'd rather not invent conventions foreign to cl for my codebase :D
<aeth>
It's not foreign to CL
<jmercouris>
jasom: I have no idea what you mean by frobnotzing
<jasom>
Zhivago: that was the first example I thought of, but that's not a bad idea
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<aeth>
Pretty much the only thing in "Conventions in Scheme" that you should never do and I've never seen is $foo for constant (since CL has +foo+) http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
<jasom>
jmercouris: frobnotz is a throw-away verb, much like foo and bar are throwaway nouns
<aeth>
jmercouris: The problem with alternatives to "foo!" is that there is no direct CL equivalent. The n in nfoo means "non-consing" but that doesn't guarantee that it is destructive... also you can be both destructive and cons
<aeth>
and -f like incf is essentially limited to define-modify-macro macros afaik
<jmercouris>
I really need to spend more time mastering CL
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<aeth>
I think you don't see foo! in CL because Lispers don't care about destructive code as much as Schemers... but if you're writing part of a program that does care, why not use that convention?
<aeth>
jmercouris: Oh, and before you mentioned about documenting types. Don't trust the user imo.
<jmercouris>
aeth: What do you mean? you put type checking into your functions?
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<aeth>
There are two approaches. check-type is 100% portable, but not necessarily what you want. Type declarations might just assume the type in Cthulhu Lisp or some other non-euclidean eldrich abomination lisp from before time, but should work as expected on most modern Lisps when saftey != 0 (and that should always be the case)
<aeth>
A ton of code written recently uses type declarations and assumes they work as expected, with type checking when safety != 0
<aeth>
Iirc, an added advantage of type declarations is that they don't need to check type if they're running on Lisp machine hardware that is designed with Lisp types in mind.
<jmercouris>
I didn't even know type declarations were a thing in CL
<aeth>
(defun foo (x y) (declare (single-float x y)) (+ x y))
<aeth>
It can generate very efficient code for non-bignum numbers and sequences because a lot of built-in functions are generic over numbers or sequences (like + or map)
<aeth>
Although a check-type should produce a very similar result, just with the type-checking in the function instead of before the function
<jmercouris>
aeth: That is pretty useful, I amy start using that in my code
<jmercouris>
aeth: where is a list of all types like "single-float")?
<Bike>
what makes a type like single-float?
<jasom>
jmercouris: there is no exaustive list of types since e.g. (integer 5 8) would be all integers in the range [5,8)
<aeth>
Actually, the checking in a foo with type declarations seems to be considerably more concise than the checking in a foobar with check-type when I use sb-disassem:disassemble-code-component to see the full disassembly (which disassemble does not provide)
<jasom>
jmercouris: but the hyperspec lists types in the various sections (e.g. the numeric types are listed in the chapter on numbers)
<aeth>
i.e. you can just store a new value in check-type
<Bike>
sorry, six comprehensive lists. hell yea
<jasom>
er it's rather the integer range [5, 8] the bounds on the type integer are inclusive
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<jmercouris>
can you declare a type that is a custom struct?
<aeth>
Hmm, this seems to be the difference in SBCL. check-type will let you insert a valid replacement and a type declaration won't
<Bike>
jmercouris: sure
<jmercouris>
or an object of some time?
<jmercouris>
s/time/type
<jmercouris>
Bike: How might that look?
<Bike>
(declare (type fuckshit x)) where fuckshit is the name of your struct
<Bike>
same as any other type
<jmercouris>
I see, your foobar is a little more aggressive than most :D
<jasom>
you can even declare parameterized types
<jmercouris>
jasom: What is "parameterized type"?
<Bike>
it's kind of shit as parametrization goes
<jasom>
yeah it's not very powerful
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<Bike>
and it means, like a type with a parameter
<jmercouris>
yes, but what does it mean for a type to be parameterized?
<Bike>
like (integer 3) has 3 as a parameter
<jasom>
jmercouris: (integer 5 8) is a type that includes only the objects 5, 6, 7, and 8
<jmercouris>
ah, so a type is a function that accepts args to produce some sort of check function?
<jmercouris>
based on some criteria?
<jmercouris>
so a type that accepts no args just checks for identity?
<Bike>
er... how did you get that out of this
<Bike>
that's creative, but wrong
<jmercouris>
well (integer 5 8) looks like a function call to "integer" with the arguments 5 and 8
<Bike>
it's not
<Bike>
integer by itself is also a type
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<Bike>
it is the type of integers
<jmercouris>
that is true
<Bike>
if you don't know what parameterization is don't sweat it
<Bike>
not everybody has a copy of TaPL blessed by the vatican
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<jasom>
you will almost never define a new parameterized type in lisp because Lisps type parameterization is not very powerful
<aeth>
You almost certainly want to restrict the integer type for it to be useful. "fixnum" is the laziest way to do it, but is non-portable. Stuff like (unsigned-byte 8) and (unsigned-byte 32) are great because they're almost certainly going to be supported in 64-bit implementations' specialized-arrays
<jmercouris>
now would (declare (type my-object x)) also work?
<Bike>
that depends onw hat my-object is
<Bike>
if you have (defstruct my-object ...) sure
<jmercouris>
Bike: a class
<jasom>
as long as my-object is a type then yes
<Bike>
(defclass my-object ...) would also make it valid
<jasom>
all classes are types, but not all types are classes
<Bike>
all classes are types (but not vice versa)
<aeth>
But if you want type information to produce more efficient code you really want the compiler to know that the integer is never going to be a bignum (which might have to require more complicated code on your end)
<Bike>
it won't help optimization too much, though
<Bike>
correctness, maybe
<jmercouris>
I'm not interested in optimization
<Bike>
ok great
<jmercouris>
I'm mostly interested in safety, for some applications
<Bike>
the thing about type declarations is that they are an assertion to the compiler
<Bike>
and the implementation is NOT required to check that assertion
<jasom>
jmercouris: cmucl and sbcl at least will emit some compile-time checks in the presence of types, and will always emit run-time errors if safety is non-zero
<aeth>
Afaik, for the most part, the compiler already knows what the type has to for a variable be by the function you try to use on it.
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<Bike>
if you want an actual assertion, use check-type or negotiate with your vendor (i.e. read the manual)
<jmercouris>
jasom: I just tested CCL, it also seems to work
<Bike>
for the most part the compiler knows jack s hit about anything
<aeth>
If it works on SBCL, CCL, ECL, and CMUCL it is very portable. Does it work on ECL?
<jasom>
jmercouris: yeah, once you use a lisp like that, it becomes so obviously the right way, that most implementations have copied it
<aeth>
Bike: I think it's more nuanced than that, i.e.: For the most part the compiler does know anything between function boundaries because (foo 42) might return 43 now, but could be redefined at runtime to return "Hello, World!"
<Bike>
the gulf between what a compiler could know and what it does is vast
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<jmercouris>
I just want to emit useful error messages to the user if they have supplied an incorrect type
<jmercouris>
Bike: And this is true in every language
<Bike>
yeah, so use declare if it works, or check-type if you wanna be super sure
<Bike>
and uh, allow replacements
<Bike>
weird feature that
<jmercouris>
because if the compiler knew what I was trying to program, it could possibly do it for me instead of me having to type it out :D
<jmercouris>
aeth: Yes, but doesn't it still need to make a list?
<jmercouris>
just because SBCL happens to make a list of args and then returns that list, doesn't mean that along the line it didn't make the list in the way you are describing
<jmercouris>
I don't see how it is avoidable to make a linked list without linking the elements of the list
<aeth>
pillton: so named specializations are inline function calls instead of runtime dispatch?
<pillton>
aeth: Yes.
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<pillton>
Look at the compiler-macro-expand-1 test. (Line 366).
<aeth>
pillton: What happens if named specializations are also inline?
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<aeth>
pillton: And do the names have to be exported/imported?
<pillton>
I'm not sure why you would do that, but I'll check.
<pillton>
The names do not have to be exported.
<aeth>
ah, okay
<aeth>
pillton: It looks like you've thought of everything, then.
<aeth>
I like it when people write things so I don't have to :-)
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<aeth>
jmercouris: And that's why I promote specialization-store, btw. The library literally anticipates my feature requests and then implements them in the past
<jmercouris>
aeth: perhaps he is using cl-read-mind
<jmercouris>
are there any CL projects using "blockchain" technology?
<aeth>
jmercouris: Possibly, but mere blockchains aren't enough. Smart contracts are what people want now.
<aeth>
Fortunately, literally any design would be more secure than Ethereum imo.
<aeth>
Formal verification would be an interesting project.
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<jmercouris>
aeth: Formal verification is a pipe dream
<aeth>
jmercouris: Formal verification for general purpose programming, yes, but smart contracts kind of need them because hundreds of millions of dollars are on the line.
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<aeth>
So you kind of have to program more like NASA and less like a JavaScript web developer when you're doing an Ethereum clone
<jmercouris>
I somehow doubt that that's what these guys are doing
<jmercouris>
I've done formal verification, and, it is not a fun time, nor is it easy, nor is it even possible truly except for on some embedded systems
<aeth>
$120,000,000,000 market cap, now slightly more than half the market cap of Bitcoin
<aeth>
100% marketing since you can't write usable software in it!
<aeth>
They apparently decided to release early and hype it so that they could then get the resources to implement it properly.
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<jmercouris>
that is unbelievable
<jmercouris>
I should have an ICO :P
<aeth>
jmercouris: Oh, and apparently the reason it's slow is not because it's distributed but because it runs in a 256 bit VM.
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<jmercouris>
so many questions
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<jmercouris>
writing fast distributed software is hard enough with all of the scheduling and memory challenges, why do this?
<jmercouris>
Alright, who wants to join me in writing a new platform called Lisperium?
<aeth>
I'm guessing that that's probably large enough to express all of its currency as an integer (which is necessary because of how badly it handles numbers), whereas 64-bit and 128-bit wouldn't be
<jmercouris>
I love that all data types are exactly the same size, even the byte
<jmercouris>
why couldn't they even do something simple like reference counting based GC
<jmercouris>
that's not even hard
<jmercouris>
they could even have had it be manual like on Objective-c
<aeth>
Iirc, the creator was 20 when he wrote it (and he's only 23 now)
<jmercouris>
to be fair, when I was 20, I was struggling to write my own implementation of malloc
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<aeth>
jmercouris: If you are serious, I'd start with a fixed-point math library. You generally want decimal fixed-point math for currency (e.g. at 1/10000 to represent 1/100th of a cent), although if it's cryptocurrency, you might just want to work in powers of 2 all of the time for efficiency (i.e. use ash)
<aeth>
Once you find or write that, the rest of the language practically writes itself
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<aeth>
lisp-in-lisp is easy
<jmercouris>
aeth: You don't want to work on the lisperium platform?
<jmercouris>
heres the yc title; Lisperium - Lisp Blockchain ICO
<aeth>
jmercouris: Well, I know the pain point you're going to reach: cryptography. I wouldn't trust any pure-Lisp crypto libraries with real money of any kind (not battle-tested enough), including cryptocurrency.
<aeth>
And you kind of need crypto for a cryptocurrency
<jmercouris>
Here's what we'll do, we'll just use CFFI
<aeth>
idk
<aeth>
If you could actually do an ICO, you could pay some crypto person to write a pure-Lisp crypto library that is reliable, at least in SBCL
<aeth>
SBCL has everything you need, unless the GC is problematic.
<jmercouris>
here's what you need for a successful ICO, just write a white paper
<jmercouris>
you could probably take any ELS paper, change the title and abstract
<jmercouris>
nobody reads beyond that anyway
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<jmercouris>
you know how rust has these sort of semi-automatic rust-->c converters
<jmercouris>
do any such tools exist in lisp?
<aeth>
jmercouris: No, if you were serious about writing a white paper for an ICO, just get a PhD to write it and invite a PhD to the team. PhD + writes lots of papers. There are several here afaik.
<jmercouris>
aeth: I'm totally joking, I bet the SEC is going to begin regulating ICOs in the near-term and I don't want to be involved in that legislative nightmare that will arise
<aeth>
I'm sure writing a VM in CL to run a blockchain-distributed reliable program (Rust-like or Haskell-like) would be a project someone would want in on
<aeth>
jmercouris: An ICO is almost certainly a bad idea, but a blockchain probably has enough interest from SEO-approved investors at this point.
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<aeth>
s/SEO/SEC/
<aeth>
But they're probably SEO approved too
<jmercouris>
aeth: That is probably true, just throw that word into any presentation and people just lose it
<jmercouris>
seems to be the "cloud" of 2017-2018
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<aeth>
jmercouris: All you need is: a fixed-point math library, a proof-of-stake blockchain, a VM to run smart contracts on that blockchain, a Haskell-like or Rust-like language with Lisp syntax to run on that VM. That would near-guarantee a $1,000,000,000 market cap for that cryptocoin. There are already 38 (!!!) valued that much.
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<jmercouris>
yeah, if only it was that simple
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<aeth>
jmercouris: It's actually simpler
<jmercouris>
the key here is marketing, there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of cyrpto languages
<jmercouris>
why is one more popular than the other?
<jmercouris>
what would we call it?
<aeth>
jmercouris: read-eval-pay-coin
<jmercouris>
I like where you are going with that, but it has to be max 3 syllables
<jmercouris>
ideally two
<jmercouris>
also we can't put the word "coin" in the title, that's overused
<aeth>
There are a lot of shitcoins with nothing to offer except being a github fork of Bitcoin or Litecoin or something. It would be hard to find a unique name for a cryptocurrency
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<jmercouris>
it's not hard at all, creativity is a skill that can be nurtured
<jmercouris>
how about "Lvault"
<jmercouris>
lisp vault
<jmercouris>
clv as a tla
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<jmercouris>
or you could call it "c-store"
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<jmercouris>
it sounds catchy, digital, and people can imagine what the "c" stands for
<aeth>
anything that begins with C is interpreted as something implemented in C
<jmercouris>
that's fine, confusion is good
<jmercouris>
we can get people fro the C community to ignorantly support it
<jmercouris>
plus C has a lot of credibility
<jmercouris>
the logo could be like a clamshell or something
<jmercouris>
a play on words of "c" sounding like "sea"
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<aeth>
this name is probably taken a million times for a million different things, but "clash" would be the perfect name, imo. A pun on the "cl" prefix a lot of cl libraries/programs have, and "cash"
<aeth>
i.e. cl-cash
<jmercouris>
yeah, that's a good one, it's too bad that a clash is an unpleasant thing
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<jmercouris>
what if we drop the c in front and call it "lash"
<jmercouris>
because it's a bunch of data secured "together"
<aeth>
"lash" is still negative, unless you're into that sort of thing
<jmercouris>
I can't believe such a program exists
<jmercouris>
how about "clamshell"
<aeth>
Well, they're referencing a rooster, clearly
<jmercouris>
or "closure"
<aeth>
jmercouris: "shell" is synonymous with "unreliable programming full of landmines"
<jmercouris>
that doesn't look like a rooster at all
<jmercouris>
I don't think programmers are who we are marketing to
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<jmercouris>
what we need to get is the herd investors
<jmercouris>
and make enough hype around our new platform
<jmercouris>
so actually, the language is irrelevant to them, it just happens to be in cl, which is conveniently easy for us
<aeth>
there are some investors on the Lisp hype train, although probably not as many as in the past
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<jmercouris>
we need to somehow make our technology "AI" or something
<aeth>
hmm
<jmercouris>
we could just call it the "Smart" platform "self-learning machine application technology"
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<aeth>
"closure" would be the most clever name of your list, too bad it is too close to clojure and clozure
<jmercouris>
clojure and clozure have no name recognition, we could just do it
<aeth>
well, it needs to be a misspelling, so maybe cloxure
<jmercouris>
maybe we could get more street cred by writing it in cyrillic
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<aeth>
I'd probably start with the blockchain and VM and name the combined product later
<aeth>
Names usually come last
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<jmercouris>
sounds like a plan, I'm going to sleep for now, but let me know which yachts you'd like to check out tomorrow
<aeth>
As crowded as the crypto market is, probably a GTA Online yacht
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<aeth>
(It's funny how a game franchise about stealing virtual vehicles somehow became a game about buying virtual vehicles with RL money.)
<jmercouris>
aeth: woah woah, didn't you say earlier we'd make roughly a billion?
<jmercouris>
are you backing out?
<aeth>
It'd be a billion with a 100% pre-mine
<aeth>
And it'd be about as easy to cash out of as a dot-com stock
<jmercouris>
We're back at square one
<jmercouris>
we have to do an ICO
<aeth>
Who here writes white papers for fun? beach?
<aeth>
It would actually be interesting for the #lisp community to explore the idea of Lisp smart contracts, even though it's about 4 years too late to make real money from the idea.
<jmercouris>
I believe he does, he seems to enjoy it :D
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<aeth>
Imo if you're semi-serious about seeing where this could go (1) don't expect any money because of all of the competition, (2) whoever writes white papers for fun gets to be project lead
<aeth>
I do think that the Lisp community could make something better than Ethereum fairly easily with the existing ecosystem
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<flip214>
Xach: well, at least a logical pathname pointing to /proc should be possible...
<flip214>
Xach: I've had success with current SBCL (and so ASDF 3.3.1 IIRC) and
<Shinmera>
On your deployed system you would either set up a proper auth subdomain, or set up a route to translate it.
<shka>
ok, i seriously need to take care when reading tutorial
<Shinmera>
The gist is, each module gets its own subdomain so that it can use the full path space for itself.
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<Shinmera>
You can then use routes to translate different external urls to internal urls.
<Shinmera>
You can set it up so that the login page is reachable through /auth/login, or /userlogin, or whatever you want, but that's a step for later.
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell shka look up radiance 1.3
<Shinmera>
Right, if you do it from the REPL that's what you'll get. Radiance has a list of top-level domains it knows about. By default that's "radiance" and "localhost". When you're running a translation from the REPL it doesn't really know which one you mean, so it just picks the first one.
<Shinmera>
When you do a translation within the context of a request, it knows which domain to pick based on the request.
<shka>
now, that's important info…
<Shinmera>
It also might know additional information, such as that you used some other translation route like the /!/ prefix, and uses that to translate back.
<shka>
yeah, that explain my problem
<shka>
i don't want to use templates, so i kinda wandered around
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<Shinmera>
Fair enough
<Shinmera>
I'll make a note to explain that in the tutorial a bit better.
<shka>
ok, now i better make login page look more like my own thing
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<shrdlu68>
varjag: The OCSP issue still persists, because I've not yet implemented OCSP stapling for cl-tls. Most implementations fall back to "old-style" OCSP only when the server does not support OCSP stapling. I'll do that soon as I get some time.
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<varjag>
shrdlu68: great, thanks
<makomo>
beach: i re-read your essay yesterday for fun and found a little typo -- ctrl+f ",," :-)
<phoe>
this sounds strangely correct - by the time you're using double unquote, you're most likely already wrong somewhere
<makomo>
haha i thought about that too :D
<makomo>
i was thinking how i should have said "you probably meant to only single-unquote this space" :-)
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<beach>
makomo: Thanks! Fixed!
<makomo>
:-)
<flip214>
phoe: right, you should most probably be using ",'," or ",@,"
<makomo>
oh, regarding backquote, i have a question. i've been studying/inspecting the once-only macro (again) recently, and it uses ,,@
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<makomo>
at first i was confused because what is the leftmost unquote supposed to do? i confirmed experimentally that it unquotes every single element of the spliced-in list, but i can't exactly see where this behavior is specified in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
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<pfdietz>
I've always found it easier to unpack macro code using nested backquotes into a series of functions.
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<makomo>
and also, i feel like the page doesn't do a good job of explaining nested backquotes/unquotes. there's only a single line at the end and it's not clear to me what "should be *expanded* first" and "occur in a *row*" mean
<makomo>
(1) "expanded" because what does "expansion" even mean in this context and (2) commas can appear in a "row" but with ' and @ interspersed inbetween
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<beach>
makomo: Unfortunately, the only way to understand backquote that I know of is to apply the algorithm they show. The Common Lisp HyperSpec is meant for people who implement Common Lisp, so it is kind of understandable that it is not very pedagogical in this respect.
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<makomo>
beach: yeah, i agree with that, but i'm having trouble following their definition since the backquote is nested. i have no problem following the formalities for a single level of quotation
<makomo>
but into which "case" does ``(...) even fit?
<Bike>
if it's any consolation, nested backquotes confuse everybody.
<makomo>
am i supposed to treat ``(...) as `<basic>, where <basic> is then the rest, i.e. `(...)?
<makomo>
which is then processed recursively?
<beach>
Well, here you have a case of nesting, so the second backquote is the innermost.
<makomo>
but then again this is also confusing because of that "expanded" thing at the bottom :^(
<makomo>
Bike: a little i guess :-)
<beach>
"expand", just mean to apply the algorithm.
<makomo>
hmmm ok, so then the innermost backquote would get processed first?
<beach>
Yes.
<makomo>
so in the case of ``(...), that would be equal to `<form> where <form> is the result of processing `(...)?
<makomo>
or is it wrong to "peel off" a backquote like that
<Xach>
I share this not to mock, but because it is to me a novel (if novice) use of some functions I rarely use
<Shinmera>
I wasn't talking about a string containing undefined.
<shka>
i see
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<Xach>
I think it's a pretty good example of "I have a set of tools and I'm going to use them to get what I want no matter what". The kind of determination that will improve with access to more tools and tricks.
<phoe>
Giving a slightly broader look, the person also implemented a JSON parser in Prolog.
<phoe>
So they likely don't know CL in-depth, but they nonetheless used enough of it to implement something that works.
<Xach>
on the other hand, it can really help to have at the back of your mind that curiosity of "is there a better way?" but sometimes constraints prevent listening too much to that.
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<shka>
phoe: Prolog is a very nice language to make parser, btw ;-)
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<beach>
The functions make-jason-obj and make-json-array are amusing too.
<beach>
Wow, there are so many things wrong with that code.
<Xach>
I came across this due to the planet lisp "new lisp on github" feed
<Xach>
I usually see a title and description and check them out at some later date.
* |3b|
doesn't know prolog, does the prolog version just give up halfway through parsing undefined?
<Xach>
i was also bummed that https://github.com/mak08/cl-map is "just" ffi. i have part of a lisp shapefile parser in progress.
<schweers>
Xach: you don’t like ffi in general?
<dmiles>
|3b|: it reuses the letters
<|3b|>
ah, right
<Xach>
schweers: Not usually.
<dmiles>
|3b| well the good part of that file is it is prolgo for very simplistic prolog impls
<schweers>
I’ve never really used any ffi until I came across CFFI for lisp.
<dmiles>
(that is it doe4st use DCGs) nornmally to parse json you'd use about code 1/2 that size
<Xach>
schweers: I know it isn't practical all the time, but I do really like a "pure" lisp solution because it is likely to be easier to set up that managing foreign libraries (and foreign memory, code, etc)
<Xach>
I like being able to open truetype files on windows without messing with DLLs...
<flip214>
makomo: don't despair, I've had a major leap in backquote understanding a few months ago (after several years of using Lisp), but I'm still not sure about all the implications
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<shka>
I actually share Xach's sentiment.
<shka>
Life in the land of lisp is nicer without foreigners.
<shka>
And we should build a wall.
<Xach>
Sometimes it is too much work to make it fast enough for the task at hand. Or it's too much work to recreate some very useful library.
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<makomo>
flip214: i have this "intuitive" and "experimental" knowledge of backquote, but find that i can't read out some of the things i know about backquote from that formal definition because it's too vague about the nested syntax
<shka>
yes
<shka>
and some libs are just huge
<shka>
webkit can be a prime example of that…
<Shinmera>
On that note, I'd love it if someone translated stb_truetype to Lisp and added SDF
<mfiano>
As do I. The only place I use cffi is only indirectly, and pretty much required: Interfacing with GPU drivers (OpenGL) and creating a window/context (sdl).
<Xach>
Shinmera: What is stb_truetype?
<Shinmera>
Xach: A single-header library for rendering font atlases from truetype files.
<Xach>
Shinmera: what is SDF?
<Shinmera>
Signed Distance Fields. A technique to get much sharper characters at differing resolutions to the natively rendered atlas.
<makomo>
flip214: i know what the thing in ONCE-ONLY will produce (just produce though, i'm not claiming to completely understand ONCE-ONLY yet :-)), but i don't see how i would apply the formal definition from the spec to get to the same thing
<mfiano>
Better yet would be a Lisp implementation of MSDF or PSDF, as SDF is pretty horrible with certain input.
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<Xach>
Shinmera: what's an atlas used for?
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<Shinmera>
The atlas is stored in a texture and you use that to draw text in OpenGL.
<Xach>
ok
<Shinmera>
Rendering each character from font descriptions is too expensive, so you cache the characters you need in an atlas that is tightly packed.
<Shinmera>
Well, rendering them each frame I mean
<Shinmera>
There is a CL library to do the direct rendering approach, but it is slooooow.
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<Shinmera>
Could use that to render the atlas, I suppose, but that still leaves implementing the packing algorithm and SDF.
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<schweers>
Xach: sorry, was afk for a moment. I understand where you’re coming from. I was just trying to say that I never found another FFI which was as pleasant as CFFI (and I guess other FFIs for lisp are similarly pleasant).
* Shinmera
sighs and wishes he had time
<shka>
Shinmera: do you perhaps have any idea, why my pages won't load if I load file with pages, but it works if i compile individual pages definitions?
<schweers>
so using an FFI for lisp seems to me to be much less of a hassle than using an FFI for lesser languages.
<borodust>
mfiano: well, to be fair, that's a fork of my fork ;p since yesterday i can actually remove bodge-autowrap (and would do exactly that today) because i moved all of bodge projects onto :claw
<borodust>
Xach: while we are at it, what are the policies for accepting wrappers with compiled libraries into quicklisp?
<Shinmera>
I'm already doing it
<Xach>
borodust: no special policy. it should work on multiple lisps and must absolutely work on linux/sbcl
<Shinmera>
But, I always compile it myself on clean installations of the OSs.
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<borodust>
Shinmera Xach: with qt, i know, but are there any specific requirements, like it should load somewhere on some specific implementations and whatnot
<Shinmera>
And document how to do so yourself if you don't trust me.
<borodust>
Xach: understood
<Shinmera>
borodust: Not just Qt. I have a lot of other libraries with C parts.
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<borodust>
i'm planning to request adding claw and bodge-chipmunk, bodge-nuklear, bodge-nanovg and other complete wrappers into quicklisp
<borodust>
but like Shinmera's libraries, some of those are using customized c wrappers (autogenerated) to prevent any struct-by-value issues
<samla>
loke: nah, uni got a q&a session with him so yeah
<Shinmera>
shka: As is mentioned in the section I linked you, the names need to be unique.
<shka>
jesus
<Shinmera>
shka: This is so that Radiance can know what to change when you make a redefintion.
<shka>
you are right
<shka>
somehow i thought that this is module name xD
<loke>
samla: I'm sure there will be enough people asking good questions :-)
<Shinmera>
Heh, well, at least it was an easy problem to solve :)
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<samla>
loke: alright then :)! Well, I sure hope so
<shka>
I did not felt so stupid since thursday
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<samla>
Fucking he'll, why didn't I bring with me my copy of coders at work for him to sign. I'm a failure
<samla>
Ok thanks guys!
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<makomo>
Shinmera: i have to say, i'm always surprised by the amount of stuff you have produced :-)
<makomo>
for example, seeing some of your projects and then a line like "it uses X, Y and Z under the hood". following the links you discover that all of X, Y and Z are also made by you :-)
<makomo>
as an example, stuff like Plump, CLSS, lQuery, Clip, Radiance
<makomo>
quite nice
<Shinmera>
Well, that's what happens when you shave some yaks
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<makomo>
i would like to ask, is there a general description of the problems web frameworks in general are supposed to solve
<shka>
Shinmera: i wonder how i should handle redirecting from account creation to my main page
<shka>
simply add redirect or there is another way to do so?
<makomo>
or rather, the individual components of web frameworks maybe. for example, "routing"
<makomo>
i have a vague understanding of what routing is supposed to do/does, but is there an actual book/article explaining in detail the abstract notion of such stuff
<Shinmera>
makomo: People have different ideas about what a framework is or should be, so, not really.
<makomo>
(as opposed to just reading concrete implementations)
<makomo>
yeah, that's what i thought :^(
<Shinmera>
shka: You mean your own account page, or the one offered by simple-auth?
<shka>
Shinmera: simple-auth, at least for now
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<shka>
because i am lazy
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<Shinmera>
I don't think there's currently a way for registration. There is one for logging in, at least.
<makomo>
Shinmera: nice work though! i like when the documentation is prose, rather than just a huge reference. imo, the first thing in the documentation should always be the definition of the problem the library is trying to solve, or a concept/motivation of some sort
<shka>
ok, that's fine
<Shinmera>
Which is to simply put the URL to redirect to as a get/post parameter called "landing-page"
<shka>
i should make custom register page anyway
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<Shinmera>
makomo: Sure.
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<Xach>
borodust, Shinmera - you are two folks who provide custom dists. Are you up for starting to sign your dists with opengpgpgpg?
<Xach>
There is no procedure yet, but I am wondering: do you have a key, are you willing to use it, etc.
<Shinmera>
I sign my commits with gpg already, so I wouldn't be against it.
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<Shinmera>
Won't have time to mess with my dist procedure until late February though
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<borodust>
Xach: yes, if that would be fairly easy to do (sign a dist) i'm certainly up to it
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<sjl>
Xach: is there any way library authors can subscribe to QL's build/test process so we get notified when our projects break?
<Shinmera>
sjl: He's been looking into adding RSS feeds.
<sjl>
right now my strategy is basically "happen to see the quicklisp account post something on twitter"
<sjl>
Shinmera: that's a start... per-project feeds would be great, because I really only care about a few particular ones (mainly my own)
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<Xach>
sjl: I am trying to make a per-project and per-author set of feeds
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<Xach>
They are always all posted to http://report.quicklisp.org/ also, but that's a view that maximizes my convenience, not anyone else's
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<sjl>
Xach: per-author would be lovely
<Xach>
sjl: I've sometimes thought about auto-posting github issues, but I can think of so many failure modes that I hesitate.
<sjl>
Yeah that might be a little excessive.
<Shinmera>
There is that thing with github where you can be an "application" like travis that shows build success on commits and PRs
<Shinmera>
That could potentially be used
<Shinmera>
It won't notify you about it, but when you look at a commit it'll show you whether it passed a check or not.
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<Xach>
hmm
<Shinmera>
I can look into that once I'm done with GraphQL and the Github v4 API
<shka>
btw folks
<shka>
is there anything like cl-who, but more suited for dynamic web pages?
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<shka>
sadly i hate both CSS and HTML
<shka>
there is LASS that allows me to not look at css
<dlowe>
There are people who love both. Maybe you could team up with one of them.
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<dlowe>
(they will probably want templates :D)
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<shka>
i tried doing that, now i have deadline and my teammate does not respond
<shrdlu68>
shka: No templates?
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<shka>
so screw that, i am doing that myself
<malice>
Hi! Is there a Common Lisp standard available on ANSI page? I tried looking for it but I couldn't find it. I want to reference it, I don't want to buy it and I'm aware of its low quality.
<malice>
sjl: Thanks, that's probably what I was after!
<shka>
Xach: because I am at the point that I want to pull the middle finger, and quit this farse
<sjl>
Assuming you just want to reference the standard as a whole and not some particular page/section.
<shka>
and I don't really care
<shka>
and at the very least i KNOW where things are explained there
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<Xach>
shka: You mean you use it as a reference as you write new code?
<shka>
so it saves my depleted patience
<shka>
Xach: that to, but this thing I can do calmly, believe it or not I am trying to get my bachelor degree as well
<Xach>
shka: I don't really care what you personally use but please don't recommend it as a primary reference to someone who might not know better.
<shka>
and after all this time, uni crap make me go berserk
<beach>
malice: Did you get what you needed. Otherwise, look in SICL/Papers/Type-inference/type-inference.bib
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<shka>
Xach: but why? cltl2 is a good book IMHO. It's only drawback is that it was written before standard was finalized.
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<Xach>
shka: it has good prose, and is good to supplement or augment the reference material, but there are areas where it describes non-standard behavior as standard. It should not be encouraged as someone's first primary reference.
<beach>
shka: It is not an acceptable reference for Common Lisp.
<shka>
oh
<Xach>
I really liked reading it cover to cover. It has some warmth and humor and fills in some historical details with sloppy but enjoyable writing.
<shka>
well, i won't argue with that
<Shinmera>
shka: LASS is still CSS. It just looks like sexprs.
<shka>
Shinmera: yes, and it makes self denial easier
<Xach>
And I mean "sloppy" in the sense of being a little convoluted and human, rather than the dry and precise stuff in the final spec.
<jackdaniel>
last time I've checked CSS doesn't look like sexprs, so if LASS is still CSS – it doesn't neither ;)
<shka>
but I really like this book and I found it extreamly informative
<shka>
jackdaniel: 1+
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<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: What makes CSS painful is all the options and values and how they model the UI. That does not change with LASS.
* loke
agress with Xach. I don't think I would have appreciated CL as much if it wasn't for the fact that my boos gave me a copy of the book back in... hmm... late 90's?
<Shinmera>
The surface syntax makes little difference
<loke>
I never really got into CL until about 6 or so years ago, but whatever :-)
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<jackdaniel>
I have never argued that CSS is painful (or not) :p
<malice>
beach: I got what I wanted, but I will look anyway. Thank you for help!
<shka>
loke: oh boy, back 6 years ago i didn't have gray hairs :D
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<shka>
Shinmera: so i was wondering, how I should handle submit if i don't want to use templates?
<Shinmera>
Hm?
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<shka>
simply if on request to distinguish submit?
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<Shinmera>
Typically form submission should happen to API endpoints so that they can be used programmatically as well
<Shinmera>
But sure if you want to do it that way you can
<Shinmera>
I don't understand what submission has to do with templates though
<shka>
hmm
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<Shinmera>
The page will output whatever you return from it, or whatever you explicitly store in the response object's data
<shka>
Shinmera: i was trying to copy what simple-auth is doing at register
<shka>
and needless to say, register is not api… not sure what to think about that
<Shinmera>
It's old, is what you should think about that.
<shka>
i see
<shka>
ok, i will try to look at login instead
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<shka>
thanks
<Shinmera>
Should fix it up and make it accept a redirect too
<Shinmera>
But, so much to do
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<shka>
well, I will look at it, maybe i can even patch it someday
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<shka>
busy right now, though
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<shka>
Shinmera: anyway, whole gist of define-api is that code is launched on :submit, is that correct?
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<Shinmera>
When you have a form and the user clicks submit, the browser opens another page with the form data as parameters.
<Shinmera>
API endpoints are pages that do argument parsing for you to some extent and have a stricter scheme about how they can be reached.
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<shka>
Shinmera: well, ok
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<shka>
Shinmera: so i should name my api like it's route?
<shka>
that's what you are doing anyway
<Shinmera>
routes are something different in Radiance.
<Shinmera>
The convention is to name the api endpoint module/something/something
<Shinmera>
so for auth that's auth/login. For, say, plaster that's plaster/create, etc.
<Shinmera>
The tutorial goes through all of this though.
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<shka>
well, post request launches page code
<shka>
is that normal?
<Shinmera>
Yes?
<shka>
well, i don't know how i am supposed to use it, really
<Shinmera>
The tutorial explains how, as does the documentation.
<shka>
part 1?
<Shinmera>
It does use api endpoints already so yes
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<shka>
I see what i am doing wrong…
<shka>
sorry for being dense :P
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<shka>
or not
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<Shinmera>
(define-api foo ()) will be reachable at /api/foo, (define-api foo/bar/baz ()) will be reachable at /api/foo/bar/baz
<shka>
yeah, i noticed that
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<shka>
forgot about /api/ part
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<shka>
Shinmera: well, that would be it for today, I must say that you were of great assistance to me today, thank you
<Shinmera>
Sure.
<osune>
while we are talking webframeworks on CL: Currently I run my Telegram Bot in long poll mode, but I can use a single webhok too. Assuming I'm a embedded C programmer (no significant server side expirience) , should I even look at radiance or is something barebones like lack a better start for me to provide a single uri which gets POST requests with json data ?
<Shinmera>
For that I'd just use a server like hunchentoot directly.
<Shinmera>
But you can also use Radiance for it if you want of course
<shka>
well, radiance at least look like decently designed architecture
<shka>
so you may be extra future proof by using it, although this may be a huge overkill
<Shinmera>
One of the core points of Radiance is to allow you to run multiple web applications in a shared environment. So if what you're developing is a component that could be reused by other people, then Radiance is a good fit.
<shka>
yeah
<Shinmera>
If it's just for you, then you can just as well go with Hunchentoot barebones.
<shka>
i noticed that theme
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<shka>
anyway… I like radiance
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<shka>
not any expert (obviously), but modular architecture FTW
<osune>
So if I would want create a full blown REST api Radiance would be a good fit? I assume I need to know how the server under the framework works to use/understand any framework?
<Shinmera>
Well if you create an API or web thingy that might be useful to other people then sure.
<shka>
osune: server is abstracted away
<Shinmera>
You don't really need to understand the server.
<shka>
have a good evening all
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<osune>
Thanks Shinmera, I'll take the route which I'll understand faster
<Shinmera>
osune: The server is basically just responsible for listening on a port and translating the HTTP structure to some internal format. Typically an object.
<Shinmera>
The framework will handle things like dispatch based on the URL.
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<Shinmera>
So all you need to understand is on which URL your functionality will be reachable, how to access request data, and how to return response data.
<osune>
For the telegram bot I need to provide a customized URL ( https://www.example.com/<bot-token> ). So far I understand that the server does no routing and I would need a Framework which can dispatch on a URL. Did I got this right?
<Shinmera>
Well you can do the routing yourself. Which is trivial especially if you only have one thing to reach :)
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<osune>
Because the URL used would be in the server internal Request Object
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<Shinmera>
Routing in Radiance is a bit more complicated, but in most frameworks all it is is a list of "pages" and some regex that the current request is compared against.
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<Shinmera>
osune: A framework is not magic. It uses the server's public API, so you can too.
<Shinmera>
Anyway, just have a look at Hunchentoot's documentation. It's good and shows a simple example that should get you started in no time.
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<osune>
If I would using python , probably would take flask ( I dabbled a bit with cherry-py a few years ago ) for this task. So I wondered where to start with CL. Thanks for the starters
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<shka>
there is a tutorial on building simple web page raw on hunchentoot
<shka>
lisp for the web or something like this
<shka>
it is pretty old, though
<Shinmera>
There's one in the HT docs.
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<osune>
jackdaniel: I took a look at the ecl cffi backend. They use quite excessive the uffi compatible interface, which is somewhat marked as "depricated". I feel conflicted if I should use it or not (the uffi interface would staisfy my needs). Can you give me absolution?
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<osune>
shka: maybe you mean Lisp Web Tales?
<shka>
that's the newer one i think
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<shka>
i did not read it, that's for sure
<jackdaniel>
osune: CFFI uses ECL ffi which implements interface defined by UFFI
<jackdaniel>
nothing wrong with that
<jackdaniel>
it is not deprecated *in* ECL
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<osune>
I must have over estimized the meaning of "New code shouldn’t use this interface preferring CFFI." , because the SFFI interface is said "to be only used if ECL is your deployment platform". I understood it as you should use CFFI if possible , and SFFI as fallback.
<jackdaniel>
sffi is static ffi which is ECL-specific
<jackdaniel>
UFFI is ECL's exported interface for FFI (which is interface-compatible with original UFFI)
<jackdaniel>
CFFI is portability layer between implementations which makes a portable interface for FFI
<jackdaniel>
in case of ECL, it uses UFFI-compatible interface, because that's what ECL provides. In case of SBCL it will use sb-alien package interfaces etc. If you use sb-alien package, you can't expect it will work on other lisps
<osune>
but one can use UFFI in a static context too, at least that is what I got out of the ecl backend in cffi?
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<jackdaniel>
CFFI can use static ffi of ECL as well, that's just the way how calls are compiled
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<osune>
ok so all this is a understanding on my side regarding the manual which I had prior to taking a look at the ecl backend in cffi as you suggested. Thanks for the confirmation :)
<Devon>
Any package out there to write files with Emacs-style safety, e.g., to update foo write to #foo# then rename #foo# to foo while holding a lock as a symlink .#foo -> HOST.PID
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<Xach>
Devon: I haven't heard of such a thing. I do that manually when I care (but without the locking part)
<Xach>
Just the write-to-temp and rename part...
<Shinmera>
Well :if-exists :supersede creates a new file and then renames on completion.
<Devon>
Me too but I'm doing it more often lately.
<Xach>
Shinmera: it might
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<Xach>
I would be interesting in seeing just what each implementation actually does for each of those open options.
<Xach>
interested, rather
<Shinmera>
The :rename-and-delete option is pretty weird: "The existing file is renamed to some other name, then it is deleted but not expunged, and then a new file is created."
<Devon>
open [Function] ... :supersede ... If possible, the implementation should not destroy the old file until the new stream is closed.
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<Devon>
I was thinking of a stronger assurance.
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<pjb>
Shinmera: :rename-and-delete is basically what application do on unix systems.
<pjb>
eg. emacs renames the current file foo as foo.~1~ and then deletes (at a later time) the older backup files.
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<Devon>
Emacs first checks for */.bzr/checkout/format, */.git, */.hg, */_MTN/format\0, .src/*, .src/*,v, RCS/*, RCS/*,v, s.*, SCCS/s.* and who knows what else, before saving *.~1~
<osune>
jackdaniel: never mind i figured it out and I feel ashamed
<pjb>
Devon: of course, and it doesn't even save it necessarily in the same directory or file system.
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<fe[nl]ix>
Devon: one recent Linux kernels it is possible to supersede atomically, but I know of no language library that exposes it
<fe[nl]ix>
*on
<fe[nl]ix>
there's a syscall for creating an unreferenced inode (temporary file), and a new way to atomically replace the inode pointed by a path
<pjb>
renameat2
<fe[nl]ix>
bonus that in case of :abort t, no empty temporary file is left around
<fe[nl]ix>
the unreferenced inode gets cleaned up immediately
<rpg>
jasom: The problem with that is that the remote, authoritative repo will still be darcs when I have my git repo! :-/
<jasom>
rpg: it works like svn-git to let you use git with a darcs remote indefinitely
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<rpg>
jasom: I'm sorry -- you are right. When I first skimmed this page I got stuck at "migrating ... from darcs to git..." and missed the "can be used to create git mirrors of active darcs repositories."
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<Shinmera>
Could also try to convince Xach that your git repo will be the new authoritative source
<rpg>
Shinmera: The last thing either the CL community or I need is for me to own another authoritative repo!
<Shinmera>
You could also try to convince Xach to move it to sharplispers to make it more accessible to contributions.
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<rpg>
That would really be up to Attila. If he prefers to keep it in darcs, I will not (or at least try not to) complain.
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<pjb>
rpg: indeed, darcs is better than git, but when git appeared, it was suffering from a few bugs, which let git take over. Now it's essentially finished.
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* Xach
feels the excitement
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<rpg>
pjb: It didn't help that initially it seemed one always had to build darcs oneself, requiring a huge haskell toolchain, and it was never very fast.
<pjb>
Why? It was a good motivation to install the Haskell toolchain and start programming in Haskell!
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<pjb>
We should do the same in lisp. Make a widely used utility in lisp, and have all distributions and users install a lisp system!
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<aeth>
pjb: There is a widely used utility in Lisp that encourages Lisp, it just encourages a limited, outdated, and slow Lisp instead of Common Lisp
<jasom>
When I last used darcs significantly I found that darcs was, in theory, better than git, but git was, in practice, better than darcs. In particular darcs was quite slow.
<aeth>
(GNU Emacs!)
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<aeth>
jasom: agreed
<aeth>
But the final nail in the coffin was sites switching from multiple version control systems to just git, effectively killing darcs and hg
<pjb>
anyways, it's over, nowdays you would need to justify not using git with a very large consulting project, and reports and white papers etc.
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<aeth>
Interestingly, SVN is alive because it offers something git doesn't: better support for binary files
<aeth>
SVN might be more popular than similar-to-git systems
<rpg>
aeth: And svn externals are about a zillion times better than git submodules or subtrees.
<rpg>
aeth: Oh, yes, and the learning curve is *much* shorter.
<rpg>
My main issue is that my brain only has room for one distributed VCS, which means that I cannot afford to figure out bzr, hg, darcs, etc., no matter how wonderful they might be.
<rpg>
DVCS is a tool, not a job. For me, at least.
<jasom>
I can fit 3 DVCS *or* git
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<pjb>
aeth: nope.
<pjb>
aeth: SVN is still alive because it offers something most others don't: ginormous repositories that are very hard to migrate.
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<aeth>
pjb: You can migrate from SVN to git. You will probably produce multi-GB repos, though
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<pjb>
At the clients' I've seen, the project of thinking about migrating to git would be multi-man-year consulting projects, and the migrations would involve duplicating the available server hardware, and be multi-man-month projects.
<pjb>
Basically they've been talking about migrating for years, but just cannot invest the required cost.
<pjb>
Same kind of tools as Jira, etc.
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<jasom>
pjb: I wrote a tool in lisp to migrate our internal svn to git, so I could do fast local querries against the history. It was indeed very non-trivial
<rpg>
I remember thinking "oh, I'll just take my svn repo on the road using git-svn so I can get something done on the plane." Ha-ha. Ran the export overnight. The next morning, it wasn't done.
<pjb>
jasom: there's reposurgeon to do it too (written in python by ESR, also he regreted not having used lisp).
<rpg>
I still maintain that svn externals are a huge boon. People where I work just hate to start up a new project that uses git, because getting all the git repos working together is such a mess.
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<jasom>
simple things like sometimes /trunk/module becomes /branches/foo othertimes /trunk is copied to /branches/bar. Sometimes /trunk/module is copied to /branches/baz then /branches/baz is deleted then /trunk is copied to /branches/baz
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<jasom>
rpg: yea, a monorepository is the best way to use git, which kind of sucks
<rpg>
The number of ways to get your submodules stuffed up is huge.
<jasom>
git submodules are completely unusable
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<jasom>
everyone I know that has used them on a non-trivial project has come to regret it
<rpg>
We used gitslave once, and it pretty much works, but if it ever doesn't you're in real trouble because it's a big snotball of code
<pjb>
There's the android repo script to manage multiple gits too.
<rpg>
There's subtrees, but right in the middle the git folks tell you right away that they have done it wrong and left in a huge way for you to shoot yourself in the foot.
<jasom>
pjb: my tool found several bugs in pathname support. There were file names in our svn repository that sbcl couldn't handle and file names that ccl couldn't handle