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<hhdave>
Hi. I just asked this in #ccl (don’t know if anyone here but not there might know): Does anyone know if CCL can work on the Lego EV3 (with the ev3dev linux distro)? I downloaded that latest tarball and expanded it. When I tried ./armcl in the ccl directory it said ‘file not found’. I then recompiled the CCL kernel (make clean & make). This gave me a new armcl, but that one reports a segmentation fault. Do I need to specify a different float
<hhdave>
compiling the kernel or does CCL not support this processor (wikipedia says it’s an ARM9 TI Sitara AM1x).
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<bms_>
I've never heard of that distro, hhdave. I've always wanted an EV3, since it came out.
<bms_>
Sorry, though, I'm not sure.
<bms_>
Someone might know.
<Shinmera>
hhdave: Recompiling it won't help, as CCL needs itself to compile.
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<hhdave>
bms_: Here: http://www.ev3dev.org/. I only just downloaded it and tested it on Saturday. Quickly managed to set up Wifi access with a usb dongle and SSH into the EV3. I’ve installed ECL on it (just apt-get install ecl) but that seemed to have a problem when I did (compile ‘fact) - error 1 from GCC. It’s possible that something wasn’t installed. It interprets things ok though.
<bms_>
Thanks for the link.
<hhdave>
Shinmera: It doesn’t need itself to recompile its kernel. That did recompile ok. The kernal is just a C program.
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<hhdave>
I seem to remember recompileing the armcl kernel to get it running on a Raspberry Pi. Once I did that it worked with no problem.
<Shinmera>
I had no issues running the CCL binary distribution on the Pi3 directly
<pjb>
Recompiling the kernel may be useful to adapt to the libraries of the new system.
<hhdave>
Shinmera: it was a while ago I had to do that, on a Pi B. It might not be necessary now, or with a newer Pi.
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<hhdave>
pjb: I think it was referencing libraries that weren’t there. I guess that’s why it just said ‘file not found’ when I first tried it. Any idea why it would now give a segmentation fault?
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<pjb>
hhdave: nope. Try to debug it.
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<hhdave>
pjb: via gdb?
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<hhdave>
I wonder if it could be reserving too large a heap by default. The EV3 only has 64MB of RAM. I don’t have it here, but I’ll try it later.
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<pjb>
hhdave: yes, gdb.
<pjb>
You want to know why you get a segfault.
<hhdave>
pjb: Indeed. OK, I’ll try that
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<hhdave>
pjb: thanks
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<dmiles>
is EXTENSIONS often used in some way special to carefully import from trival packages like LOOP, SOCKET, GRAY etc?
<Bike>
what is "EXTENSIONS"
<dmiles>
the package EXTENSIONS
<Bike>
that's just a name. it has no special meaning.
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<Bike>
loop isn't trivial and also isn't an extension. sockets and gray aren't extensions but they tend to be in their own packages and also aren't trivial.
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<Bike>
my advice is when you consider adding a "special way", instead, don't
<pjb>
dmiles: the only standard package names are KEYWORD COMMON-LISP and COMMON-LISP-USER (with nicknames CL and CL-USER).
<dmiles>
the assumpytion i was going by is that packages will use EXTENSIONS as single 'use-package' to find many public symbols at once
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<pjb>
dmiles: I would discourage using a common word such as EXTENSIONS for an implementation specific package, since other packages or even libraries, may use such a package name. UNLESS you are implementing a specified API common to multiple implementations (eg. cf. the CDR).
<pjb>
dmiles: a better choice may be YOUR-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS
<Xach>
dmiles: that's one way to arrange things. i don't personally like it due to the risk of inadvertent clashes
<Shinmera>
A few implementations already provide an EXT/EXTENSIONS package
<Shinmera>
So it clashing with libraries is a moot point.
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<pjb>
But this is confusing since they don't provide the same symbols.
<Xach>
You could lock the package, but then you'd have more work to avoid things
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<dmiles>
well why i am even asking is I been placing certain helper functions in EXT,SYS,WAM-CL pacakges.. i am thinking i am about to merge the three
<Xach>
Shinmera: I mean if you are :use-ing extensions for sockets and clash with something completely unrelated like regular expressions.
<Xach>
Not the package name itself
<Shinmera>
Xach: Of course.
<pjb>
again, if you name them YOUR-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM, YOUR-IMPLEMENTATION-CLOS, etc, you're good.
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<Shinmera>
Xach: I meant that, since implementations already use EXT, a library couldn't use it for itself anyway.
<Shinmera>
Xach: So another implementation using it doesn't matter.
<pjb>
Shinmera: not all implementations have an EXT package, so a library could be developed using this name.
<p_l>
SI is also taken in many classic systems
<Shinmera>
Yeah but then it wouldn't be portable already anyway
<Shinmera>
So there's little point
<pjb>
Yes: avoid short package names!
<dmiles>
I been placing certain helper functions in EXT,SYS,WAM-CL pacakges using based on that was where they were when i stole them from ECL,ABCL,CLISP etc
<Xach>
Hmm, it woudl be nice to survey the lanscape of implementation packages intended for users to use.
<p_l>
use package renaming macros with DNS-style names :)
<pjb>
dmiles: use DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS, not EXT.
<dmiles>
pjb: then the question i have is is there a good reason to have a MILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS and MILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM separate?
<pjb>
this is as you wish.
<pjb>
But a system and extensions seems to be two different things, so having two packages may make sense.
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<Bike>
usually "extensions" means it's intended as an exported interface for the user
<Bike>
whereas system is just your own stuff, that users shouldn't be using
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<pjb>
dmiles: you can also have nicknames, such as DCLIE, which 1- is not too short (it could be longer), 2- is almost random, si it could be unique.
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<dmiles>
*nod* right now i use DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS haivng a nickname of "EXT" and DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM as "SYS","SI","EXCL" etc
<pjb>
Nickname collision is as bad as name collision, from an implementation or a library point of view.
<dmiles>
( also nicnamed DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-EXTENSIONS to "EXTENSIONS")
<pjb>
Basically, while one can rename a package, the way it's specified makes it rather a delicate matter to do it conformingly.
<pjb>
Also, it's very inconvenient to have to rename packages (that you may not know in advance, if you get a new version of an implementation or a library), before being able to load your code!
<pjb>
So while adding a short nickname while compiling, I would not advise leaving them in released code (load time and run-time).
<dmiles>
oh btw only durring primoridal loading do i have all the nicknames for DMILES-COMMON-LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-SYSTEM
<dmiles>
(so i supposed the name collisions are not an issue)
<dmiles>
(the nicknames are to do things like make sure I support ECL's "SI" etc)
<dmiles>
i think what gets me is how often EXT is used for impl specifics
<dmiles>
(in several lisps)
<dmiles>
like ext:function-lambda-list
<dmiles>
or ext::%dolist
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<dmiles>
why would CLISP use ext:quit isntead of sys:quit ?
<Bike>
because quitting is something the user can do
<dmiles>
even mkcl uses mk-ext:quit .. yet sbcl,ccl,allegro do not
<jackdaniel>
ext is for extensions, si/sys is for internal interfaces
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<jackdaniel>
so ext is something what is not in the standard, but surely is useful
<Bike>
ext::%dolist isn't the same, that's not an external symbol
<dmiles>
why would ecl use si:quit instead of ext:quit ?
<dmiles>
(refering to <Bike> because quitting is something the user can do)
<jackdaniel>
there is ext:quit in ecl
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<jackdaniel>
if quit is exported in si packages that's not a problem, since si is internal anyway
<Bike>
so there is no "instead of".
<dmiles>
ah ok that is good to know .. it is customary to export most of the usefull SYS stuff to EXT
<jackdaniel>
also it is worth noting, that some useful interfaces may be in si - that means that they shouldn't be used by a user, because there is absolutely no guarantee names and lambda-lists will match (i.e they may be changed without further notification)
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<dmiles>
jackdaniel: so EXT you like to keep as consistent from version to version?
<jackdaniel>
if something changes in ext it is a subject of graceful deprecation first and should be documented
<jackdaniel>
changes in sys doesn't require such care
<jackdaniel>
but yes, usually things shouldn't be removed from ext
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<dmiles>
personally i have prefered ECLs use of EXT for say FIXNUMP vs CLISP putting that non exported in SYSTEM
<dmiles>
though CLISP have a reverse policy (just as consistent)
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<dmiles>
CLISP policy to make everything that is undoubltedly part of everyones lisp goes in system vs ECL's into EXT
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<dmiles>
OK nice, I implmented CLISP's LETF and luckily its in EXT and not SYSTEM (mine ended up in system due to loading in into the system package)
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<dmiles>
I think mostly what i will end up doing is having a black SYSTEM package.. intern and export all that goes to EXT, then import these EXT symbols to SYSTEM then load code (in-package :sys) that seems to be what most do
<dmiles>
black/blank
<dmiles>
(SYSTEM will end up with no exported symbols and EXT with only exported)
<jackdaniel>
if letf is what I think it is, it is a multithreaded code disaster
<jackdaniel>
I wouldn't recommend using it
<jackdaniel>
and if you find you must, it might be a good idea to rethink the algorithm
<dmiles>
letf i think should be equivalent to using symbol macros pointed at places
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<dmiles>
(though symbol macros that call setfs when they bind)
<dmiles>
the threading problem has to do with multiple values or if you can explain jackdaniels
<dmiles>
+?
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<dmiles>
so the threading issue is just due to places more often being accessed by more than one thread? Or is it that the thread is usualyl the vcalues holder in cases like (setf (values ..) ..) ?
<Bike>
i would guess that it's more that accessors aren't generally atomic, but it doesn't seem any worse in that respect than just setfing in multiple threads
<dmiles>
"usualyl the vcalues holder" usually the "values holder" are stored at the level of the threads instance
<cgay>
I assumed that was Welsh.
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<sigjuice>
I keep typing grep at my CL-USER> prompt. Is there something I can do to make the grep work?
<Bike>
like the posix program grep?
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<jackdaniel>
dmiles: letf body ia not atomic, so the cleanup may overwrite ypur legimite changes. sorry, writing from phonee
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<sjl>
sigjuice: (define-symbol-macro grep (format t "grepping for ~S" (read-line)))
<sjl>
[SBCL] CL-USER> grep hello world
<sjl>
grepping for "hello world"
<sjl>
what could go wrong
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<_death>
can also try for a repl hook
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<sigjuice>
sjl thanks! I will give it a try in a bit
<sjl>
it's probably not a good idea
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<sjl>
e.g. that will affect places other than the repl
<sigjuice>
how so?
<sigjuice>
but those effects should be pretty obvious, no?
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<sjl>
and you'd need that symbol macro in every possible package
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<Bike>
even if you did something like this, it wouldn't be a full shell with interpolation and stuff
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<sjl>
yeah
<sjl>
well, you could run-program a shell and let it handle that
<sjl>
but you're still gonna run into annoyances
<Bike>
my advice is don't type things into the wrong prompts
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<jmercouris>
jasom: I finished CPS style loading for JS, I made a (with-js) macro
<jmercouris>
seems to have no ill effects for the cocoa version, because as you said, I just call the callback immediately
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<jasom>
jmercouris: good to hear
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<makomo>
i'm going through paul graham's cl book and this is one of the exercises (11/6): "Define a macro that takes a list of variables and a body of code, and ensures that the variables revert to their original values after the body of code is evaluated."
<makomo>
i've done it and it works but what i'm interesting in is making it work for any object, not just integers
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<makomo>
or numbers*, i guess
<sjl>
how did you implement it?
<Bike>
what's that have to do with numbers?
<makomo>
i suppose there isn't a general way of making a copy of an object without knowing what the object is?
<sjl>
I'm curious how you would make it work for numbers and NOT just anything
<sjl>
I think the intent of the exercise is that the original value of the variables is the object FOO. If that object happens to get mutated, that's fine.
<makomo>
sjl: ah
<makomo>
right, that's what i was getting at
<makomo>
for example, if a hash table was bound to the variable
<makomo>
mutating the hash table will be a persistant thing
<sjl>
yes
<sjl>
but at the end, the variable should still be pointing at the (mutated) hash table
<cgay>
Perhaps if the excercise said "revert the variables to their original bindings" instead...
<jmercouris>
Is it possible to make deep copies in lisp?
<makomo>
^^^ interested in this
<sjl>
even if it was assigned to something else in the bodyu
<Bike>
sure it's possible
<jmercouris>
could you make a deep copy of the original object?
<sjl>
yes, but you have to implement it yourself
<jmercouris>
and then at the end just reassign the binding to that copy
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<makomo>
jmercouris: that's what i thought about, but you can't do it generally
<Bike>
there's just no "copy constructor" like in C++ because we don't have semantics that require copying everything a lot
<jmercouris>
sjl: Isn't there a way to traverse all the properties of an object?
<makomo>
it has to be implemented for every possible type
<makomo>
Bike: nicely said, i was going to mention c++'s copy ctors
<jmercouris>
Surely there are enough introspection functions that you can implement a generalized version
<sjl>
didn't gabriel write something on this
<Bike>
you can use mop to get a list of slots for an object
<makomo>
jmercouris: what about users' types?
<Bike>
but, you can also use mop to define your own kinds of slots
<makomo>
i.e. never-before-seen types
<jmercouris>
idk
<makomo>
i was trying to see whether there was a general COPY function of some sort
<sjl>
there is not
<Bike>
which might not be copy-able in any obvious way
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<phoe>
jmercouris: that's a null pointer dereference.
<jmercouris>
What does that mean?
<phoe>
You are trying to dereference a null pointer.
<Bike>
like int* x = NULL; *x++; in C
<Bike>
trying to read from zero
<jmercouris>
Ok I see
<phoe>
I'm curious about gobject:g-signal-connect - what kind of callback are you expected to give to it?
<jmercouris>
I understand now
<Bike>
couldn't tell you why, tho
<phoe>
A Lisp lambda, or a CFFI callback of some sort?
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<jmercouris>
As shown in my example, it does work with a Lisp Lambda
<jmercouris>
but as soon as I try to access something that isn't webview, or load-event (the two args passed to the lambda), it spits out this error
<phoe>
oh, right. hm.
<phoe>
it doesn't work for closures? most weird
<jmercouris>
I can only think of a dirty solution which is extending the webview and adding a slot for the callback function
<phoe>
This is dirty.
<phoe>
I don't know what's going on.
<jmercouris>
The more I work with GTK, the more I agree with Aeronotix, what a right mess
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<phoe>
you should be glad that SBCL provides handlers for signals like that
<phoe>
and you get a nice-looking Common Lisp error in the Common Lisp debugger
<jmercouris>
Alright, so I've narrowed down the issue I think
<jmercouris>
GTK does not like it when you set a signal on an object that hasn't yet been created :D
<phoe>
because otherwise you'd just be in deep shit while trying to read crash logs produced by ySegmentation fault (core dumped)
<phoe>
jmercouris: oops
<jmercouris>
Ah, the lovely asynchronous nature of it
<jmercouris>
Well, I started the system, loaded gtk, rendered the view, then attempted to set the signal
<jmercouris>
even though that's exactly what my code does, by pausing before setting the signal it worked
<jmercouris>
seems I need to also synchronize this
<phoe>
so you need to finish instantiating all objects first.
<phoe>
and only then signal stuff.
<jmercouris>
precisely
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<jmercouris>
gtk is so good, if you are a masochist
<pagnol>
did any here set up an ecs with cl?
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<phoe>
pagnol: ecs?
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<pagnol>
phoe, for entity-component system, a pattern that's often used in game development
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<aeth>
pagnol: try asking in #lispgames
<aeth>
There are probably a dozen
<pagnol>
oh, I had no idea there's a channel, thanks!
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<frodef>
hi all
<Xach>
hi frodef
<Xach>
back to hack?
<frodef>
Hi Xach, trying.. :)
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<frodef>
Having an issue with trivial-http, trying (shttp:http-get "http:/foo/bar") ...
<frodef>
... seems to translate to "GET http://foo/bar HTTP/1.0" which is ... wrong, isn't it?
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<Xach>
I've never tried trivial-http, only drakma and dexador, sorry.
<Xach>
(mostly drakma)
<Xach>
frodef: that request is something you'd send to a proxy, maybe.
<frodef>
Seems to me an extremely basic mistake on trivial-http
<frodef>
's part, so basic it's rather silly.
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<Xach>
Hard to say. I didn't even know about trivial-http until just now!
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<_death>
trivial libraries with trivial bugs
<frodef>
guess so :)
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<Xach>
frodef: where does "shttp" come from?
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<frodef>
package nickname I suppose
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<Xach>
frodef: It's not incorrect behavior, I don't think.
<frodef>
I'm not really sure. Problem is, it
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<frodef>
's rejected by the server I
<frodef>
'm interested in.
<frodef>
(shitty keyboard)
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<Xach>
frodef: is simplicity of client very important? if not, drakma works all right in many cases.
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<fiveop>
I have a form '(lambda (x) x) and want to get the function that corresponds to the form (lambda (x) x). How would I do that?
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<sjl>
fiveop: THE function? or A function? `(compile nil '(lambda (x) x))` maybe?
<Bike>
fiveop: compile or coerce or eval
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<sjl>
huh, didn't know coerce could do that
<Bike>
it's kind of weird, yeah
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<fiveop>
I did not think of compile, thank you.
<sjl>
huh, maybe I could start using plain old 'coerce instead of alexandria's ensure-function
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<_death>
sjl: they do different things?
<sjl>
not for the cases I generally use them for, I think
<fiveop>
Is there a generic solution that takes either of 'function-name, '(function function-name), and '(lambda (x) x) and spits out the desired function object
<frodef>
Xach: yes, suppose I should switch client.
<sjl>
fiveop: are you sure you mean to have that quote in '(function function-name)?
<fiveop>
I am sure, but I might just not allow it in my API.
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<fiveop>
I was thinking of taking input of the form '(... (:satisfies #'predicate) ...)
<sjl>
yes, #'foo expands to (function foo) not '(function foo)
<fiveop>
but if I just accept '(... (:satisfies predicate) ...) and '(... (:satisfies (lambda (x) x)) ...)
<fiveop>
I could use coerce
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<_death>
sjl: I think it's a schemism to add quotes to everything
<sjl>
(coerce ... 'function) will work with ... = 'foo or #'foo or '(lambda () ...)
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<sjl>
ah
<fiveop>
The problem is (coerce (car '(#'foo)) 'function)
<fiveop>
it does not work, because I destructure a sexpression tree I get the actual list '(function foo) not what #'foo evaluates to
<_death>
fiveop: (function foo) is not a function designator.. so you can come up with an "extended function designator" concept and have operators working with that
<fiveop>
yes
<fiveop>
thanks, I was just wondering if there was already a solution in the standard
<_death>
also, there is already an "extended function designator" concept in CL.. so may want to choose another name ;)
<fiveop>
I will just not allow #'
<Xach>
Where do these expressions come from?
<fiveop>
The caller of my function
<Bike>
there's also setf function names.
<Xach>
fiveop: where does the caller get it from?
<fiveop>
by writing them
<fiveop>
I want to write a pattern matcher for s-expressions with a syntax for patterns similar to the tree patterns of cl-ppcre
<fiveop>
eg (matches nil (:list))
<fiveop>
or (matches nil (:satisfies listp)) => t
<fiveop>
but (matches (2) (:list)) => nil whereas (matches (2) (:list (satisfies numberp))) => t
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<fiveop>
there is a : missing
<fiveop>
The goal is to verify and maybe later destructure complex macro arguments in a clean way
<Xach>
sounds interesting
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<fiveop>
thanks
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<makomo>
does anyone know what the names of the map functions stand for (except for mapcar and maplist maybe)?
<makomo>
for example mapc and mapcan
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<makomo>
i'm looking for a good mnemonic or something similar
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<rme>
maybe mapc is shorter than mapcar because the successive cars aren't returned as a list?
<makomo>
that's what i'm thinking too. and the same logic would go for maplist/mapl.
<Bike>
maplist to mapcon kind of fucks it up
<makomo>
and then mapcan and mapcon remain
<makomo>
yeah lol
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<makomo>
mapcan is understandable, it's mapcar with an n, i.e. it's destructible
<rme>
As for mapcan, it's like mapcar, only the "n" means that it nconcs the results together.
<makomo>
yeah :-)
<rme>
what you said
<makomo>
maplist -> mapcon sucks indeed
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<rme>
Perhaps interestingly (or not), ccl implements all of those mapxxx functions using an common function called ccl::map1.
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<cgay>
mapcarn
<fe[nl]ix>
yeah, let's map the car out of that list
<fe[nl]ix>
n
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<cgay>
nmapcar probably makes more sense, in a matching CL's naming conventions sort of way?
<pjb>
map-list-elements-concatenating-results
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<cgay>
reduce
<pjb>
The point of mapcar/mapcan/mapcon etc, being to 1- keep the symbol name at 6 characters or less so it can be stored in a single word, 2- have some homogeneous names for similar operations.
<pjb>
reduce doesn't concatenate the results, it defers to the caller.
<cgay>
indeed
<pagnol>
can I somehow tell sbcl that a vector will only ever contain objects of a certain type?
<Bike>
yes, you can declare it to be of type (vector [type]) and i think itll figure it out
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<sjl>
well, "will only ever contain objects of a certain type" doesn't necessarily make it a (vector TYPE)
<sjl>
e.g. `(vector 1 2 3)` is not a `(vector fixnum)`
<razzy>
I have question, wasn't #lisp bigger 15 years back?
<Shinmera>
#lisp has only been around since 2004.
<Shinmera>
So the answer is no
<razzy>
thank you
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<Shinmera>
At least that's what ChanServ tells me
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<pjb>
#lisp existed before, but wasn't registered in ChanServ. Perhaps #lisp wasn't even on freenode then!
<pagnol>
sjl, mind explaining this to someone new to lisp?
<pjb>
pagnol: cf. upgraded-array-element-type
<razzy>
is here some elder from ancient times? 2000? irc.freenode seems like very good technology and idea to be this small
<foom>
irc is pretty crappy for modern requirements.
<pagnol>
if I add a line (check-type x (vector integer)) then my code compiles but when I pass a vector with strings then the compiler doesn't warn me
<Shinmera>
foom: And yet in many ways it's better than all modern solutions :/
<foom>
Shinmera: yeah, that's the dilemma.
<pagnol>
are there popular slack channels for cl?
<sjl>
pagnol: it's a bit complicated, but in a nutshell: if you create an array with (make array ... :element-type foo) then they array is only ever allowed to contain foo's, and the Lisp is allowed to optimize how it stores the array
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<sjl>
e.g. if you (make-array ... :element-type 'bit) SBCL will (I think) pack the bits into contiguous hunks of memory, rather than having one byte/word/etc per element
<pillton>
sjl: That isn't correct.
<sjl>
no?
<phoe>
What is the function to get the filename from a pathname? for #p"/foo/bar.baz", I want to get "bar.baz"
<Shinmera>
phoe: (format NIL "~a~@[.~a~]" (pathname-name a) (pathname-type a))
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<phoe>
Shinmera: hacky as fuck - but thanks
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell phoe look up pathname-utils file-name
<sjl>
anyway, it's implementation-dependent what element types the Lisp will optimize
<pillton>
sjl: The value of :element-type allows make-array to optimize the representation of elements in the array. It does not restrict what elements can be stored though.
<sjl>
the upgraded-array-element-type thing pjb mentioned is a way to see what the element type of the array actually ends up being
<Bike>
i was just talking about declaring the vector type, in which case (vector (or cons function)) or whatever does tell the implementation that the elements are of that type, even if that's upgraded to t
<Bike>
doesn't work for check-type though
<froggey>
phoe: file-namestring?
<pillton>
I haven't followed the conversation and I have only read sjl's last comment.
<Shinmera>
Bah, how could I forget about file-namestring
<sjl>
pillton: yeah, that particular type gets upgraded to t
<phoe>
froggey: wow
<phoe>
you are correct, thanks!
<sjl>
if you use an element-type that doesn't get upgraded to t, it'll restrict what can be stored in the array
<sjl>
> The new-array can actually store any objects of the type which results from upgrading element-type; see Section 15.1.2.1 (Array Upgrading).
<Bike>
the integer float setf is UB, though of course it does usually work
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<sjl>
pagnol: so anyway, implementations are allowed to take advantage of :element-type if they want
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<sjl>
and the type specifier `(vector FOO)` essentially means "a one-dimensional array with an :element-type of FOO"
<sjl>
which is not necessarily the same thing as "a one-dimensional array that will only ever contain FOOs"
<Bike>
no
<Bike>
the type specifier actually does mean it only contains foos, regardless of the upgrading
<Bike>
at least for declarations
<pillton>
sjl: The upgraded array element type can be more general then the specified element type e.g. on SBCL (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 0 17)) => (unsigned-byte 7)
<sjl>
pillton: yes, I'm aware of that
<phoe>
Bike: "the integer float setf is UB" <- what do you mean?
<Bike>
is it not obvious?
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<sjl>
Bike: I'm saying that if I (defparameter *x* (vector 1 2 3)) and never change its values, it's still not a `(vector fixnum)`
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<sjl>
Bike: even though it's "a one-dimensional array that only ever contains fixnums"
<Bike>
yyyyyes, i think that's right
<sjl>
how about this: all (vector fixnums) contain only fixnums, but not all vectors that contain only fixnums are (vector fixnums)
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<pillton>
phoe: The point of that example was to show that (setf (aref ...) ...) does not do any checking.
<sjl>
pagnol: anyway, if you declare that something is a (vector FOO) you must have created it with an :element-type of FOO (or an element-type that upgrades to the same result type). it's not enough to just make sure it only ever contains FOOs.
<pagnol>
sjl, alright, thanks for taking the time explain it
<pagnol>
*to
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<sjl>
array element types are tricky in lisp, unfortunately
<sjl>
the book Common Lisp Recipes has a good section on them, if I remember right
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<sjl>
yeah, chapter 5-9 in there.
<sjl>
It's not free, but it's a good book that's worth the money if you want to dive further into Common Lisp eventually.
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<pillton>
It would be good to think through the impacts of enforcing the element-type.
<pillton>
"Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated."
<sjl>
sbcl won't let you do it unless you specifically set safety to 0
<sjl>
other implementations might let you shoot yourself in the foot even with lesser settings, yes
<sjl>
ccl also checks the type at safety 1
<sjl>
those are the only 2 implementations I have on this machine to check
<phoe>
pillton: it might do checking.
<aeth>
If you want to test a lot of implementations, you can set up roswell for that
<sjl>
I'd be surprised if many implementations didn't check the type at safety >= 1, but yeah, they're allowed to not check if they want to
<phoe>
pillton: since it's undefined behaviour, the implementation might do typechecks on array access, and error in case a mistyped value is set into an array.
<aeth>
I use roswell when I need to see how (or if) something works just about every implementation. It doesn't have MKCL and I can't get its Clasp to work. Other than that, it has pretty much every free implementation.
<phoe>
*whether* implementations do it is another story. (:
<sjl>
I mean, it's undefined behavior. It could launch Nethack.
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<pillton>
phoe: Sure. I am just making sure people are aware of their assumptions.
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<pagnol>
I see lots of Japense names when browsing repos on github... is the lisp community strong there?
<pagnol>
*Japanese
<jmercouris>
Apparently it is :D
<jmercouris>
I think it's also true that emacs has some presence there, which leads of course to Lisp
<jmercouris>
I see alot of Japanese specific emacs/lisp things
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<pagnol>
especially the name Eitaro Fukumachi jumps out at me just about everywhere
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<pansninja>
Hello
<pansninja>
Do you read CAR and CDR as "car" and See-Dee-Are?
<aeth>
cuh-dur
<pagnol>
thanks for asking this question.. I was wondering too the other day :)
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<aeth>
and "cadr" would be "ca-dur" and "caddr" would be "ca-dud-ur" and "cadadr" would be "ca-dad-ur" etc
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<aeth>
It depends on the Lisp, too, e.g. with MIT Scheme "car" is pronounced "cah". This holds for all Lisps and Schemes made in the Boston area.
<fe[nl]ix>
hahaha
<bms_>
:P
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<aeth>
Hmm... CCL's developers are in the Boston area. So apparently that includes CCL
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<pagnol>
somehow the loop macro feels like a drug
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<rme>
I'm a ccl developer, and I'm not in the Boston area.
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<aeth>
s/CCL's developers are/the company that primarily sponsors CCL development is/
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<pagnol>
I found out about ParentScript only this evening and am amazed that it was made in 2005 apparently, a long time before the js craze took off
<aeth>
pagnol: It's really easy to go to or from s-expressions
<aeth>
(because you're essentially working in an intermediate representation)
<pagnol>
aeth, sorry, you lost me, in reference to what did you write that?
<aeth>
pagnol: Lisp developers see some strange syntax that they're forced to use (JavaScript, HTML, CSS, GLSL, XML, SGML, CSV, JSON, SQL, whatever) and their first instinct is to try to generate it from s-expressions
<rme>
While Clozure Associates has indeed supported CCL for a very long time, CCL relies on (and needs) contributions and support from its users.
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<aeth>
pagnol: Generating a string or a file from s-expressions is a very simple thing to do.
<pansninja>
What is parentscript?
<pansninja>
wot?
<aeth>
parenscript is generating JavaScript from s-expressions
<aeth>
There's also JSCL, which tries to keep more of the CL semantics iirc
<pansninja>
XML actually a kind of s-expression.
<pansninja>
aeth: Sauce?
<aeth>
Both are very incomplete.
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<aeth>
I've used the JSCL REPL when I need a REPL in a browser on the go, though
<p_l>
Well, parenscript is more of a "syntax" to write JS in
<pansninja>
it is Paren. Not Parent.
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<pansninja>
I believe one of the major things that holds lisp back from adoption is not the syntax, but the idiosyncratic documentations.
<aeth>
pansninja: XML has an ambiguity that s-expressions don't have, probably introduced because of how verbose and annoying XML is
<pansninja>
I am yet to find a language with more over complicated and poor UX docs than lisp.
<aeth>
The XML ambiguity is: <foo bar="baz">...</foo> vs. <foo><bar>baz</bar>...</foo>
<pansninja>
And that is coming from someone who has come to love lisp in some ways.
<pansninja>
aeth: But that is not the same thing at all. foo with bar set to baz is not same as a foor with a bar.
<pansninja>
obviously.
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<pansninja>
(foo :bar "buz") vs (foo (bar (buz))).
<aeth>
<person name="Phil">...</person> vs. <person><name>Phil</name>...</person>
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<pansninja>
(person :name "Phil") vs (person (name "phil"))...
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<Shinmera>
The difference with sexprs is that they have no defined structure beyond lists and atoms.
<Shinmera>
XML does. It forces the ambiguity on you.
<aeth>
CL in particular has the plist vs alist issue, most Lisps just have alists, which are harder to write.
<aeth>
That's probably the most direct comparison, but you don't mix plists and alists in the same data structure afaik
<pansninja>
Shinmera: Example?
<Shinmera>
Of what
<pansninja>
Of an ambiguity in XML that is not possible in CL.
<Shinmera>
What we're discussing right now?
<pansninja>
Considering plists and alists issue mentioned by aeth.
<Bike>
lisp library docs kind of blow a lot, it's true. hyperspec is pretty good though.
<pansninja>
Shinmera: Stop it. It doesn't look good on you.
<Shinmera>
plists and alists are someting made up by people. They're not part of sexpr syntax.
<Shinmera>
What doesn't look good on me?
<pansninja>
Bike: hyperspec is rubbish. Do you really think the image of a script as a button and a wildly complicate layout and flow is good? how?
<pansninja>
Shinmera: Your... face. :P
<Shinmera>
Uh. Okey, nice try?
* rme
shakes head
<Bike>
i hit table of contents, i go places
<Bike>
the pictures are old, no big
<Bike>
i meant the content more than the buttons, anywho
<aeth>
The Hyperspec looks like it was designed in 1996, probably because it was (although iirc it was given a slight visual improvement over the 1996 version if you look at the Wayback Machine)
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<pansninja>
Navigation is a big part for me. if I can't find the content.
<pansninja>
It is as good as nonexistent.
<Bike>
well, go to the table of contents
<Bike>
and then you can click the nice textually named chapters
<pansninja>
I need like 25 clicks and five backs to get to it from most pages.
<pansninja>
You can't convince me that it is a good experience.
<aeth>
The design of the HyperSpec is old enough to drink in the United States