<_death>
quicklisp has a slime helper, the easiest way
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<mhd>
And does that let you control SLIME version? I could not find anything about that either
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<mhd>
^ Xach?
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<rumbler31>
mhd: i haven't found anything about this either
<rumbler31>
mhd: i think the development version is available to melpa or marmalade, but its up to you to also make sure that the version of swank that is loaded by the lisp matches as well
<_death>
if you want absolute control, just clone the repository
<rumbler31>
that is how I do it, slime from melpa, and whatever version of swank is installed by quicklisp-slime-helper, until I figure out an easier way to make both versions sync all the time
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<phoe>
I actually do an ugly trick sometimes
<phoe>
I install slime via quicklisp-slime-helper. This downloads swank into quicklisp's software directory.
<phoe>
I purge the contents of that directory and clone the Git swank repository in its place.
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<phoe>
this means that a) I'm running bleeding edge now, b) swank and slime versions match.
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<phoe>
and c) that magic can happen now.
<phoe>
but it doesn't, at least to me.
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<_death>
I did something like that for all quicklisp git sources, so in effect only half using quicklisp :/
<phoe>
well
<phoe>
if it works, then it works
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<mhd>
3 main ways to install SLIME: (1) clone repo; (2) package; (3) quicklisp
<mhd>
phoe, you are mixing and matching slime and swank?
<mhd>
what could ever go wrong?
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<mhd>
Has anyone tried to use SLIME 2.20 with ACL? I've encountered an issue that slime-inspect gets totally hosed inspecting anything. You have to basically shut the Lisp down hard (kiling the buffer) to recover.
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<mhd>
goes into debugger somewhere in no-applicable-method MULTIPROCESSING:PROCESS-PROPERTY-LIST
<mhd>
Happens in 2.20, but not in 2.19 SLIME
<mhd>
Reproduced in ACL "alisp", both SMP and non-SMP, on MacOS (10.0). Anyone else?
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<Xach>
mhd: if you need a specific version of slime, you can get it from https://github.com/slime/slime/releases and put it anywhere that asdf can find things, like ~/quicklisp/local-projects
<Xach>
make sure you load slime.el from that same location.
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<openthesky>
hey I hope this isn't too off topic but has any gotten the nEXT browser working under ubuntu? http://next-browser.github.io
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<hydrocat>
any recommendations on a graphical package ? I'd like to control a canvas and see the results immediately, kinda like how you can do in opengl
<hydrocat>
I'm only looking for 2d manipulation
<White_Flame>
I think lispbuilder-sdl is popular
<White_Flame>
there's also #lispgames that might be worth asking
<hydrocat>
White_Flame: I'll give them a look :)
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<mhd>
Thanks Xach
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<PinealGlandOptic>
beach: good
<iqubic>
Morning beach.
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<dmiles>
in cl-ansi doit.lsp does not expect it is only runing in compiled mode the compileit.lsp does.. correct?
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<dmiles>
(why i ask is i thought at some point things changed .. but that may have only been for an impl and non cl-ansi)
<dmiles>
but that may have only been for an one impl (ABCL) and not that hte ansi tests have changed
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* dmiles
hopes
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<epony>
Good morning.
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<beach>
Hello epony.
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<epony>
Hi there, beach (have not had the chance to say HNY this month yet here).
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<phoe>
new
<phoe>
ugh wrong window
<phoe>
anyway, good morning
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<makomo>
morning
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<Shinmera>
mhd: If you have installed slime from melpa, run package-list-packages, press U, and then x. That should update all of your packages. If you only want to update slime, find it in the list and press u there instead.
<mhd>
Thank you Shinmera !
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<beach>
otwieracz: I think that, despite many statements to the contrary, our best development and debugging tools are really not that good. You are going to either have to pitch in or wait until the planned software has been developed. For example Clordane: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf
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<otwieracz>
Well, backtraces are awesome.
<otwieracz>
But there's nothing else. ;)
<beach>
Really? Good for you.
<otwieracz>
At least in comparison to Clojure.
<otwieracz>
Where that's pain in ass.
<beach>
Now here is the catch: Something like Clordane can not be implemented without significant support from the implementation, and that is probably not going to happen for SBCL.
<beach>
And probably not for any other existing free implementation either.
<beach>
So then you will not only have to wait for Clordane, but also for SICL.
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<beach>
Again, unless you find a way to pitch in.
<otwieracz>
So, more or less, nothing changed from what I remembered.
<beach>
otwieracz: Not much is going to change as long as people believe that our current tools are the best, all languages considered.
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<jackdaniel>
but it certainly makes the community feel better ;-)
<beach>
True.
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<beach>
Oh, and for the record, I think it would be way more productive to work on improving our tools than to attempt to change the standard to include the fad of the day.
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<loke>
The current tools are obviously not the best
<loke>
Most (all?) languages I use have horrible tools.
<loke>
Lisp is acceptable, but only in comparison with the competition.
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<dim>
pfff, what's with people?
<dim>
so pgloader didn't use to catch this error, and users would see: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR in thread #<THREAD "lparallel" RUNNING {100975FE43}>: error opening #P"/tmp/pgloader/pgloader.log": Permission denied
<dim>
then they open an issue on GitHub about SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR
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<dim>
like, they don't even read “filename: Permission denied”
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<dim>
just because it's Common Lisp doesn't mean you don't have to read error messages, I guess. I can't. Mm. Maybe I should switch away from CL if I want to have users... or maybe pgloader has way too much success and now I have to deal with people who don't know what they are doing? sorry for the rant.
<jdz>
dim: Yes, success is a double-edged sword.
<crsc>
Hi
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<jdz>
dim: You also get people depend on some [obscure] features/bugs, and then when you fix/improve your software people complain.
<Shinmera>
beach: FWIW The SBCL folks are aware that the current debugging environment is pretty bad and would like to add stuff like out-of-process debugging.
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<loke>
dim: Having a top-level condition handler that prints the message from the error before exiting would cover all the cases, yes?
<beach>
Shinmera: Sure, I know at least one SBCL maintainer who is aware of that.
<beach>
Shinmera: Despite that fact, I often see messages such as "yes, but that is not going to happen".
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<Shinmera>
beach: I remember from the last time it came up (which was not long ago) the consensus was that they'd like to have it, but there's several roadblocks in the way that make it difficult.
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<beach>
Shinmera: Yeah, that sounds accurate.
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<megachombasss>
hello, could someone explain me this function? (defun is-indir (e) (eql (car e) :*) )
<phoe>
megachombasss: sure
<phoe>
this function checks if the first element of its list is equal to the keyword :*
<megachombasss>
okey so the keyword is exactly :*
<megachombasss>
its not a regular expression
<phoe>
so (IS-INDIR '(1 2 3)) will evaluate to NIL, but (IS-INDIR '(:* :+ :-)) will evaluate to T
<phoe>
megachombasss: :FOO is a notation for keywords.
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<megachombasss>
oh wait a sec
<megachombasss>
:* :+ and :- will return true?
<phoe>
no.
<phoe>
the list, '(:* :+ :-), starts with :*.
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<phoe>
and this function only checks if the first element of the list is eql to :*.
<phoe>
the rest of the list can be anything.
<megachombasss>
oh okey okey
<phoe>
megachombasss: you sound like staying on #clnoobs could benefit you as well (:
<phoe>
since #clnoobs is specialized for newbie questions
<megachombasss>
i have to create a lisp VM for like friday morning
<phoe>
megachombasss: good lords, what for?
<megachombasss>
i have a working virtual machine, trying to edit it, but its hard as fk when i dunnot master the language
<phoe>
and what does a VM mean?
<phoe>
...in this context?
<phoe>
an interpreter for a language?
<megachombasss>
a virtual machine with registers
<megachombasss>
that takes ASM code and do the operations
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<megachombasss>
if you're interested in making some money , i can pay you like right now for help on this
<megachombasss>
my university year depends of this and im pretty fked right now
<megachombasss>
trying to modify it to make it look like mine, but hell its hard
<pjb>
megachombasss: the examples include VM!
<phoe>
>trying to modify it to make it look like mine
<pjb>
megachombasss: Do you have 0.2 BTC?
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<megachombasss>
let me see how much is that
<pjb>
You're lucky it's dropping.
<megachombasss>
holly, 2000usd hurts butt
<pjb>
yes, thjat's by dayly rate.
<pjb>
Do it yourself it'll be more profitable in the long run.
<phoe>
^
<megachombasss>
im running out of time
<megachombasss>
kinda wasting more time understanding lisp
<megachombasss>
than the VM itself
<megachombasss>
for 0.02btc im up to do it
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<beach>
Understanding Lisp is not a waste of time.
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<phoe>
megachombasss: I'm willing to answer your Lisp question, but unwilling to do your homework for you.
<phoe>
s/question/questions/
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<megachombasss>
well, i will come with lisp questions then, i'll try my best
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<megachombasss>
does this returns the position of adr in :memtab or it returns the contenant of adr in :memtab ? (defun get-mem (mv adr) (aref (get mv :memtab) adr) )
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<pjb>
megachombasss: use the hyperspec. type: /msg specbot clhs aref
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<pjb>
aref is array indexing, get is key lookup in a property list.
<pjb>
megachombasss: so more like the later.
<pjb>
We say: It returns the ADR slot of the :MEMTAB vector of the symbol passed in MV.
<megachombasss>
exp will have the same value than asm right?
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<otwieracz>
Xach: not really - any modern linux is just enough.
<otwieracz>
Xach: osicat is problematic because it requires external library to be built.
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<jackdaniel>
that could sb-posix for sbcl, don't know what helps with ccl
<Shinmera>
Could CFFI to fstat(2)
<Shinmera>
Or stat if you haven't opened yet.
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<Shinmera>
I suppose OPEN would also have to error if you don't have read access.
<otwieracz>
Unfortunately, no.
<jackdaniel>
yes, but you won't be able to extract the errno in a sensible manner
<jackdaniel>
you can parse a string, but this is dependent on system locale
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<jackdaniel>
(and the error is all the same for file which doesn't exist and for file which you don't have permission to access)
<otwieracz>
Actually, for *open* it raises *no such file or directory* condition for ENOACCESS.
<Shinmera>
Oh
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* Shinmera
feels the pressure to write a filesystem-utils library again.
<otwieracz>
Could you do this in, like, 1 hour? :)
<otwieracz>
Please? :)
<Shinmera>
Probably could if I was motivated to, but currently I got other things to attend to.
<pjb>
megachombasss: (defun load-machine (mv asm) (let ((exp asm) ) (inst (car asm)) ; is not a form, since it's missing closing parentheses.
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<pjb>
megachombasss: (defun load-machine (mv asm) (let ((exp asm) ) (inst (car asm)))) ; is a form, in which the variable exp is unused. Therefore a lisp compiler may remove it altogether.
<pjb>
megachombasss: instead of set-hash, we use (setf (gethash key table) value).
<pjb>
megachombasss: (gethash key table) is called a place; it's a form that can be read or written with setf.
<megachombasss>
yes yes, set-hach is a function that does (setf (gethash key table) value)
<pjb>
megachombasss: it less brain burden to use such places, rather than having different functions to read and write.
<pjb>
Don't introduce such set-hash functions…
<megachombasss>
im about to remplace all this useless functions
<megachombasss>
but its a bit clearer to read for me as its not my code for now
<pjb>
megachombasss: your case clauses are redundant.
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<pjb>
megachombasss: they all contain the symbol CL:QUOTE. Only the first clause would be evaluated if (car inst) returned CL:QUOTE…
<otwieracz>
Xach: SBCL
<Xach>
otwieracz: sb-posix:stat may do what you need.
<pjb>
megachombasss: said otherwise, CASE clauses are not evaluated; you should not quote them. (case (car inst) ((@) (case-adr…)) ((varg) …) …)
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<paule32>
hello
<Xach>
otwieracz: you can extract the errno and get an error string, too, if you wish.
<paule32>
how is it possible to extend a list at runtime?
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<otwieracz>
Xach: will see, thanks!
<pjb>
megachombasss: you can write instead (loop with etiqloc = (make-hash-table …) with etiqlocnr = … for inst on asm do (case (car inst) …))
<Xach>
paule32: it is pretty easy to extend a list from the front by adding another cons there. it is a little less easy to do the same at the end (but not too hard)
<pjb>
megachombasss: oh: (loop with etiqloc = (make-hash-table …) with etiqlocnr = … initially (setf (gethash 'nb etiqlocnr) 0) for inst on asm do (case (car inst) …))
<paule32>
hi Xach
<paule32>
i would like code for learning
<paule32>
eg.
<paule32>
user type in "cat is sleeping"
<paule32>
so the word catalog is lookup, if "cat" in list
<paule32>
is it, then add an other list with "is" ...
<pjb>
megachombasss: notice that the initially clause is written after the for, but it's actually executed before (but after the for variables are created).
<pjb>
megachombasss: what I like to do when I create and initialize objects, is to do it in the same place with a LET like in: http://sprunge.us/HGLi
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<paule32>
Xach: i have a "defvar" , that should be a word catalog, that can be extend at runtime, when user type in "cat", then the program shall search: "if cat exists" => if not => add the word
<megachombasss>
so if i coppy pasta this it does exactly the same function, but without useless clauses
<pjb>
megachombasss: notably if there's a lot of entries to fill in.
<pjb>
megachombasss: yes. The LOOP macro is sophisticated; it will expand to the equivalent let and assignments.
<wxie>
hi
<wxie>
Is single-float a class name in CL?
<Xach>
wxie: no
<Xach>
wxie: it might be in an implementation but is not specified to be by the standard (so you shouldn't rely on its classiness)
<pjb>
float is a system class, but not the subtypes.
<windblow>
is there any implementation that allows integration with C? i am thinking of starting to dive into AI, and figured that both makes a fairly good combo.
<paule32>
Xach, i get it, sorry for missunderstand
<pjb>
windblow: all implementations have a FFI to C.
<windblow>
windows is my target platform.
<Xach>
paule32: you could use (push "cat" *catalog*)
<pjb>
windblow: use CFFI to use them.
<paule32>
thx
<Xach>
windblow: most/all of them integrate with C, and CFFI is a library that presents a consistent interface for doing so.
<windblow>
thank you very much xach and pjb
<Xach>
It is fun to interactively load C libraries and interactively call C functions.
<pjb>
fun but dangerous. If you make a mistake, you crash like any other C program!
<pjb>
It's fun like wingsuit flying…
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<wxie>
Did I missed an answer for Is single-float a class name in CL?
<Xach>
wxie: maybe. i answered "no"
<Xach>
wxie: it is a type name.
<jackdaniel>
wxie: on some implementations make it a builtin-class, but assuming that is not portable
<wxie>
Xach: Thanks.
<wxie>
How could I use it in a class parameter?
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<wxie>
like this one: (defmethod m* ((m matrix) (s real))
<Xach>
wxie: you could not
<pjb>
classes don't have parameters. They have superclasses, slots, etc.
<jackdaniel>
portably you can't. non-portably if it works – it works
<pjb>
You can use the float class.
<Xach>
FLOAT is a system-class, though.
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<megachombasss>
pjb i got an error with your code. it says GETHASH: argument 0 is not a hash table
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<pjb>
megachombasss: oops, I forgot to return the table at the end of the LET form.
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<wxie>
Xach: float works, but not single-float. Thanks, all.
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<clarkema>
Supposing I define a class in one package, and want to use (slot-value obj 'slot) in another package, is there anyway to do so without having to export symbols for each of the slot names?
<clarkema>
I've played around with a function that takes the slot-value symbol name and converts it to a symbol in the package in which the class is defined, but that seems like quite a bit of overhead for every access
<phoe>
clarkema: (slot-value obj 'foo::slot)
<phoe>
but don't do this.
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<phoe>
:: means that you are using a package's internal symbols and not its external interface.
<Colleen>
Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, time, set, say, mop, get, login, grant, tell, roll,
<phoe>
Colleen: oh shush
<Colleen>
Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, clhs, set, say, mop, get, time, tell, roll, help,
<phoe>
...
<Shinmera>
PRs to implement a natural language interface are welcome
<phoe>
clarkema: better if you use accessors, and export them.
<phoe>
Colleen: tell Colleen to learn English
<Colleen>
Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, tell, roll, mop, time, set, say, get, login, hello,
<clarkema>
I'm tring to build a 'friendly' DSL for a certain task, so I already have a function that wraps around slot-value. In the DSL you call (attr OBJ 'slot) ATTR is mainly there to automatically handle the case of OBJ being nil in a sensible way, but it could be co-opted to do other munging if required
<Xach>
clarkema: and overhead is a big concern?
<clarkema>
Xach: probably not _huge_, I doubt reinterning the symbols would really hurt
<clarkema>
I was just wondeirng if there was a cleaner way
<beach>
clarkema: Yes, never access slots directly. They are implementation details.
<beach>
Use accessor functions instead.
<Xach>
clarkema: You could be cheeky and do it in SLOT-MISSING, so there's no overhead if there isn't a package issue involved.
<phoe>
...I think I am close to using a method combination for the first time in my life.
<Xach>
i'm a sucker for working around design problems with clos features!
<pjb>
clarkema: why wouldn't you just export the slot names?
<clarkema>
Xach: ah, that's an interesting idea! I need a SLOT-MISSING anyway, so could add some extra magic to it
<tfb>
clarkema: if the slot names are part of the public interface of the class, then they should be exported
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<clarkema>
tfb: I guess it just feels like I'm polluting the name space that uses the class with some very common symbols, and I'm not sure whether that might bite me further down the road
<pjb>
I use a pjb-cl-expor-definition-at-point bound to H-e (or A-e when H- is not available) to do that easily. http://sprunge.us/bThV
<beach>
tfb: Yes, but the slot names should not be part of the public interface.
<tfb>
beach: then there should be accessors, which are, or something. My point was that if there's a public interface, that should be exported
<pjb>
clarkema: no polution, since you can always NOT use the package, and instead write (your-package:attr obj 'your-package:slot)
<beach>
tfb: Yes, correct.
<pjb>
clarkema: polution occurs when you mutate some global state.
<clarkema>
beach: they aren't, directly. The user never calls slot-value; they call a method called ATTR and supply the name of the attribute that they want
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<clarkema>
the fact that this attribute is the same of the slot that holds a value is hidden
<tfb>
well those attribute names (which are slot names, right?) are the part of the public interface
<pjb>
Bow of course the advantage of using accessors, is that you can easily decorate them (have :around, :before, :after methods), and the accessor itself can be implemented to do more than reading or writing the slot (it can ensure consistency, updating other slots, or do some other computation or signaling, eg. in an observer pattern, etc).
<pjb>
s/Bow/Now/
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<clarkema>
Good points
<clarkema>
ta
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<angelo>
hi
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<Bike>
Yo, angelo.
<angelo>
:)
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<__rumbler31>
good morning lisp!
<oleo>
sup sup
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<phoe>
How can I access a slot's :INITFORM without instantiating a class which has that slot?
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<phoe>
Does any utility library provide something similar to WITH-ACCESSORS that simplifies things if the variable and the accessor name are the same?
<phoe>
I don't want to (with-accessors ((x x) (y y) (z z)) foo ...) where I can (with-accessors* (x y z) foo ...)
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<Bike>
i haven't heard of that. it's like a two line definition tho.
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<phoe>
Bike: almost everything is a two line definition in Lisp. I want to avoid following the NIH syndrome.
<Bike>
which is why i said the first thing
<phoe>
yep, I understand now.
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<Xach>
phoe: you mean you want to mix things, where some are the same and some aren't?
<Xach>
(with-foo ((x y) z) ...)?
<phoe>
Xach: yes, this too.
<phoe>
your example could be equivalent to (with-foo ((x y) (z z)) ...)
<Xach>
so that rules out with-slots
<phoe>
sounds like a wrapper around WITH-ACCESSORS but I can bet $5 that someone has already written and published it.
<phoe>
just where.
<Xach>
For what little it's worth, I tend to think of using with-accessors as a wrong approach, falling into the "objects are buckets of slots" thinking I don't really like.
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<phoe>
Xach: I'm defining a macro that will need some variables bound inside its body. I want with-accessors for that, since it uses symbol macros, which is good enough because the actual accessors will be called.
<phoe>
I'm just complaining about a minor syntactical annoyance.
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<pjb>
I have a with-slots macro that does that…
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<pjb>
Err, no, it's in CL:WITH-SLOTS…
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<pjb>
phoe: minor syntactical annoyances are not to be complained about, they're to be avoided with DEFMACRO!
<pjb>
phoe: this is not ##c.
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<paule32>
this catalog divides into "animal" and/or "plants"
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<paule32>
the name of the animal should take a "state"
<paule32>
0 or 1
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<paule32>
the problem i have, is, how to add/update the structure, if it a map-hash-table
<warweasle>
I just solved a problem using lisp. I needed multiple "virtual channels" through a serial port. I can use lisp on the server side to parse out (channel . data).
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<__rumbler31>
warweasle you have lisp code talking on a serial port?
<Xach>
; Constant 1.0 conflicts with its asserted type DOUBLE-FLOAT.
<warweasle>
Xach: ?
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<warweasle>
__rumbler31: I will shortly. I can't be on two networks at once becuase the IT department will shut the second one down. So I'm going to bypass it with a serial port.
<__rumbler31>
warweasle: are you just talking over /dev/tty or whatnot?
<paule32>
zazzerino: thank you, i did it done, but put a it to struct image ...
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<warweasle>
__rumbler31: I will be.
<warweasle>
__rumbler31: I'm going to use named pipes on the unix side.
<__rumbler31>
one thing thats always been a mystery to me is how to correctly set serial speed settings without writing c code, and it seems to be different all the time. Does the terminal that will be talking to the device need "its" speed set with stty? or does stty configure the speed of a /dev/tty for which all other accesses will be correct?
<__rumbler31>
and in hindsight this is totally off topic
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<sjl>
warweasle: these struct slots are of type double-float, but whatever lisp xach is running the tests in has *read-default-float-format* as something else (e.g. by default SBCL is SINGLE-FLOAT I think)
<sjl>
so the bare "1.0" in the demo reads as a single-float
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<Xach>
sjl, warweasle: well, there's also a "200" in there, an integer...
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<sjl>
heh, also that
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<warweasle>
sjl: I don't know the topic or what the question is.
<Xach>
warweasle: the topic is squirl demo 2 does not build because of float and integer literals in the code that don't match the declared types.
<sjl>
warweasle: the bug Xach mentioned 15 minutes ago, and you asked what you needed to fix.
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<phoe>
pjb: right. on ##c, I would complain about minor syntactical annoyances. on #lisp, I complain about me having to write the DEFMACRO myself and contributing to the global NIH.
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<warweasle>
Sorry, was distracted.
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<warweasle>
I haven't looked at this in forever. I don't think anyone uses it. Cl-chipmunk has replaced it.
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<warweasle>
I'll see what I can do tonight to get is working again...but it's strange this suddenly broke. Or was this the first time in quicklisp?
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<Xach>
warweasle: no, it's been broken forever
<Xach>
warweasle: i'm going through a backlog
<Xach>
warweasle: there are a ton of demo, test, and ancillary system failures that I have mostly ignored
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<warweasle>
Xach: I don't think it's used. You can remove it if you like. CL-chipmunk does the same thing faster.
<Xach>
Ok, thanks
<warweasle>
Xach: I'm out of open source development for now. I don't know how long that will last. But I've been swamped with other projects. I miss lisp however.
<Xach>
warweasle: Ok, no worries!
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<warweasle>
Ok, it's replaced with bodge-chipmunk
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<shka>
good evening
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<__rumbler31>
warweasle: what is taking up your time?
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<warweasle>
__rumbler31: I'm doing game development in Unreal and blender.
<warweasle>
That and work and family take more time than I have.
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<__rumbler31>
right on
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<|3b|>
warweasle: not sure "use ffi to do 2d physics" is exactly a replacement for "do 2d physics without using ffi" :)
<warweasle>
|3b|: It is when I have never understood the code. Mostly I just fiddled with things until squirl worked.
<|3b|>
yeah, not suggesting you should be required to maintain it :)
<|3b|>
maybe lispgames could take over if you no longer have time, though not sure anyone else there has all that much extra time either
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<warweasle>
|3b|: The problem is the lisp curse. We all have individual projects but no community accepted game engine. CEPL is about as close as we have. I think bodge has a fairly nice system but I don't know. I've been out of lispgame dev for a few months now.
<warweasle>
I've been busy learning blender and unreal engine.
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<borodust>
warweasle: if only there would have been any engine to accept ;p
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<warweasle>
borodust: True...but it takes a few people to build a whole one. I wasn't up to the task. To be blunt, I'm likely not up to the task I'm doing now. But I've obsessed over it.
<warweasle>
It's the reason I wanted to make a game engine to start with.
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<fiveop>
Xach: what is the simplest way to fetch the whole quicklisp dist into <quicklisp>/dist/quicklisp/software ?
<fiveop>
I want a big test set for my s-expression matching code :)
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<fiveop>
This will match potential canidates for replacement by alexandria's curry for example '(:list lambda (:list (:register 0 :everything)) (:list :everything (:non-greedy-repetition 0 nil :everything) (:back-reference 0))))
<fiveop>
wait, that should be '(:list lambda (:list (:register 0 :everything)) (:list (:non-greedy-repetition 2 nil :everything) (:back-reference 0))))
<Xach>
fiveop: that is a little tricky to decode
<Xach>
fiveop: i would really love to see a cool s-expression search syntax.
<__rumbler31>
like xpath?
<Xach>
I'm not familiar with xpath.
<fiveop>
the problem is differentiating between lists and sequences
<jasom>
Xach: xpath is a search syntax for xml
<__rumbler31>
xpath is a query syntax for xml documents
<Xach>
Is it cool?
<aeth>
foo::(+ 1 1) is valid syntax? Wow.
<Xach>
aeth: only on sbcl, allegro, and possibly some other systems.
<Shinmera>
aeth: Only in implementations with that extension
<phoe>
aeth: not standard
<Xach>
I hope it's clear what I mean when I use it, even on systems that don't support it.
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<Xach>
allegroserve has some foo:: syntax baked into its sources :(
<Shinmera>
Xach: I wouldn't say xpath is cool, but then again anything associated with xml sucks a lot, so by comparison I guess it's ok.
<Xach>
Would xpath be a good model for an s-expression query syntax?
<Shinmera>
I don't think so
<__rumbler31>
Xach: I haven't personally needed it but it lets you say things like "/A/B/C" which returns all child objects of type C from all objects of type B from toplevel object A
<Shinmera>
Xpath is very specific to XML
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<dim>
what about using pattern matching tools such as optima etc?
<fiveop>
Xach: I tried to make the syntax as close as possible to cl-ppcre parse-trees
<Xach>
I have a test set up for RSS feeds for quicklisp build failures
<__rumbler31>
but the concept maps I feel, imagine a query string of (* (* ('foo))) which will give you all foo children of all children of some top level
<fiveop>
many are probably familiar with it
<dim>
I though those tools would allow for some s-exp matching already
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<__rumbler31>
the point is that xpath is a syntax for collecting nodes of an xml tree
<Xach>
Hmm, I need to publish empty feeds for non-failing upstream sources!
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<fiveop>
I don't want to collect them. I want to match them against patterns.
<__rumbler31>
er like destructuring bind?
<fiveop>
but better
<__rumbler31>
nm
<fiveop>
You cannot do what I did above with destructuring bind
<__rumbler31>
i'm not quite sure what you're trying to do, given an sexp with nested sexps you want to apply a matcher and get what back
<fiveop>
that matches every list that has an even number (at least 2) of elements that are all #'equal to each other
<__rumbler31>
oh you're making a sexp version of what cl-ppcre expects for a regex
<fiveop>
you could do that differently I guess :P
<fiveop>
(simpler)
<fiveop>
__rumbler31: exactly
<fiveop>
that's what I did (to a certain degree)
<__rumbler31>
where the elements of the lists are equal to each other, or each list is equal to each other list?
<fiveop>
there is just one list
<fiveop>
the elements are equal
<__rumbler31>
oh i see
<fiveop>
though you could do that with LENGTH, EQUAL, and EVERY as well, so that might not be that good of an example
<fiveop>
What prompted me to start was the lack of complexity expressible in macro lambda-lists
<fiveop>
I would like to write at the beginning of a macro that expects complex structure in its input something like (unless (match *macro-arg-pattern* macro-arg) (error "invalid arg to macro foo"))
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<fiveop>
and since there is (:register <name> <pattern>) match can actually be used to destructure it as well
<fiveop>
(up to repetitions, that's a problem)
<fiveop>
Xach: how many MB/GB am I going to need for the whole quicklisp corpus?
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<Xach>
fiveop: 1.2GB
<Xach>
ish
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<aeth>
pillton: Is it intentional that (declare (optimize (speed 3))) works in specialization-store or is that an unintended side-effect of how you wrote it? It's probably great that the user can control the optimization level because sometimes that's necessary (at least in some implementations)
<aeth>
However, if optimization declarations are allowed, type declarations are allowed, too!
<aeth>
In SBCL, this breaks specialization-store. (foo 2d0 2f0) looks for a specialization that doesn't exist and (foo 1f0 2f0) complains that 1f0 isn't double-float
<fiveop>
thank you for the quicklisp help and thank you for the interesting feedback
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<Shinmera>
What's the rationale for not including the build log in the feed items?
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<dim>
wow, I think I managed to make quite some progress on my pgloader COPY batch crazyness, now streaming the bytes directly down the protocol when on-error-stop is picked (default in db-2-db cases) rather than the classis on-error-resume-next
<dim>
better memory usage for sure, maybe better perfs too
<dim>
(seems that way here, but my test cases suck)
<__rumbler31>
read through this, your defun descriptions are the same paragraph. Also, was there anything more to your optimizations than including the right (declare... options?
<dim>
yeah, lots, but it's spread in like 4 different patches
<dim>
it's mainly arranging things to do less work
<__rumbler31>
er that might have sounded belittling. I'm a novice at this, so the most obvious signal is the declare forms
<dim>
not just localized code edits
<__rumbler31>
ah
<dim>
declare is like trying to get at the last 1% maybe
<dim>
there's no “turbo“ button anymore on our computers
<__rumbler31>
lol
<dim>
the only way to make a program faster is to reduce the amount of work it's doing
<dim>
sometimes just not doing anything if you can accept that ;-)
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<dim>
https://imgur.com/zAaK1HM for the turbo thing, if for reasons you don't remember about that...
<_death>
is safety 0 really worth it
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<__rumbler31>
i'm old enough to have seen that
<__rumbler31>
young enough for it to have gone away before I fully understood what it did
<dim>
_death: no idea, I copied from Postmodern code in trivial utf-8
<__rumbler31>
I've scrounged together towers with those buttons on them with of course nothing to wire them to. I think I used it once when the wire for the real power button was too short
<dim>
hehe, then turbo would shut it down electrically? nice! ;-)
<dim>
“from faster to done with it” ;-)
<_death>
dim: my advice then is to remove the unsafety declarations and if it's not crawling keep it that way
<__rumbler31>
yes exactly!
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<Xach>
Shinmera: they could be really big
<Xach>
Shinmera: I would like to include more, though
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<Shinmera>
Xach: having the last error/warning + backtrace would be very nice, I think.
<Xach>
Like commit info if applicable, maybe the error, part of the backtrace...not sure
<dim>
_death: sounds reasonable
<Shinmera>
You could use Dissect to handle the error/trace part :)
<dim>
it doesn't seem to have that of an effect in preliminary tests
<dim>
36s to 38s in a test on CCL
<dim>
22s to 23.5s on SBCL on the same test
<dim>
now I'm wondering.
<dim>
how much danger would (safety 0) be? what's the default?
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<sjl>
1 is the "neutral value" according to the spec. pretty sure most implementations make 1 the default.
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<sjl>
the amount of danger is implementation-specific
<_death>
dim: safety 0 means you're on the segfault-corruption scale if something isn't right..
<sjl>
segfaults/data corruption/buffer overflows
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<dim>
well... the patch makes it half as likely for pgloader (using SBCL) to end up in the lldb prompt because if Exhausted its memory space anyway
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<dim>
the typical user of pgloader runs the command and then does something else, segfault won't have more impact than another error condition to them I think, it's not as if I was playing with a live dev env from a lib down
<dim>
but yeah, I shoulndn't play (safety 0) that easily
<_death>
segfault is the best case scenario
<sjl>
es
<sjl>
*yes
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<sjl>
silently corrupting data they're inserting into the db would probably be more impactful
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<dim>
pushed a patch that removes safety optimisation in the declare forms
<dim>
thanks for your comments/feedback _death
<dim>
(and sjl
<dim>
oops, missed)
<dim>
ok I guess bedtime is calling now
<dim>
once again I didn't think it would be that “easy” to implement this idea of streaming without intermediate buffer when on-error-stop is picked
<dim>
Common-Lisp to the rescue ;-)
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<_death>
I spent most of my day writing C++.. and a bit of Lisp.. so CL to the rescue here as well :)
<dim>
hehe
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<dim>
for me it feels like I can do in a couple hours in CL what I would have done in a couple days in Python and a week or two in C
<dim>
(doing lots of C code again nowadays)
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<z3t0>
hi
<z3t0>
I have been hacking lisp for a few months and am now starting to write a small program
<jasom>
z3t0: congratulations
<z3t0>
Is there a good resource I can read up that explains how to organize my code?
<jasom>
z3t0: I don't know about good resource, but you should at least be using asdf
<z3t0>
I'll take a look at that, thanks
* jasom
is looking for a decent asdf tutorial
<Shinmera>
z3t0: Take a look at libraries with a lot of downloads I guess.
<jasom>
Shinmera: the downside to that is that there are such varied styles; it's usually easier to start with a single style when beginning
<rpg>
Speaking of things, does anyone know if Chris Riesbeck's "CS linter" is still out there?
<rpg>
Has anyone taken it under their wing to maintain?
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<aeth>
I don't know anything about the quality of this guide or the author, but I just found this, which is high up on DuckDuckGo's results: http://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/
<Xach>
rpg: i put it in quicklisp, but it is not really maintained.
<Xach>
rpg: it is called "lisp-critic"
<jasom>
z3t0: I can't find a beginners tutorial, but you can get a skeleton setup using quickproject
<pillton>
aeth: I don't consider that a bug.
<p_l>
at least at one time a package-per-file approach was promoted and integrated into ASDF
<aeth>
pillton: I wasn't sure, which is why I didn't open an issue
<aeth>
It would be hard to do this accidentally.
<z3t0>
jasom: thanks
<pillton>
aeth: SBCL emits a warning anyhow.
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<rpg>
Xach: did you get it from the g000001 repo at github? That seems to be the root of the tree on github.
<Xach>
rpg: yes
<rpg>
thanks!
<pillton>
aeth: I considered doing something like that when implementing template-function.
<rpg>
p_l: package-per-file was integrated into ASDF, but I'm not sure I would say that it's clearly seen as The Right Thing. It is pretty useful if you have complex and changing dependencies (like ASDF and UIOP), because it enables ASDF to figure them out for you. But I can't say I like interacting with systems with that many namespaces, personally.
<p_l>
not calling them "The Right Thing"
<p_l>
especially since I don't do that :)
<rpg>
Especially since completion sometimes turns nice readable exported names into hard-to-read over-specific sub-packages.
<p_l>
just pointing out that it was pushed
<rpg>
I would say if you are writing your first system, then you shouldn't need a zillion packages to avoid name collisions.
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<p_l>
true :)
<p_l>
I used to go for package-per-directory
<p_l>
with `package.lisp` in each directory that did defpackage et al
<Shinmera>
I consider packages part of the user interface. They don't have much to do with how the code is organised internally, really.
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<Xach>
Sometimes my project is also the user
<rpg>
Shinmera: Occasionally I find myself introducing sub-packages, in cases where there's a clearly delineated sub-function (e.g., some specialized form of tree search), and I want to not have to worry about using common names like "search", "visited," etc.
<Shinmera>
Sure.
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<p_l>
Shinmera: If I were to go with package-per-file, I'd probably cleanly separate an "user-facing" package (possibly multiple) that would cover the APIs
<rpg>
p_l: that's what ASDF does. It has its ASDF/INTERFACE package, that is nicknamed just ASDF.
<Shinmera>
I guess. I just feel like p-p-f encourages writing huge files, and incurs tedious symbol juggling.
<_death>
Shinmera: not in my experience
<_death>
Shinmera: I've already talked about package-inferred-systems advantages/disadvantages in the past though
<Shinmera>
I know.
<rpg>
Actually, since we're off into the package rabbithole, I should say that though I don't enjoy p-p-f, I *do* think that Fare's macros for defining packages have some really useful features. Especially for p_l's example -- it's nice to have a defpackage variant that will import and then export a symbol with a single specification.
<p_l>
I just used conduits for that
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<p_l>
actually I'd often create a `cl3` package or similar that would use conduits to bridge conduits, closer-mop and bunch of other similar libs into common base language
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<drewbert>
Hi peeps. I'm super new to lisp. I'm looking at the core for a lisp I want to use in a project. I see it has def, which it uses to define defmacro, and defmacro defines defn, and defn seems to be defining runtime functions. What is `def` ?
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<Shinmera>
Not Common Lisp.
<sjl>
sounds like clojure
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<Shinmera>
drewbert: Note the channel topic. This channel is for Common Lisp only. Other lisps have their own channels (#scheme, #clojure, for instance).
<drewbert>
gotcha, thanks. Sorry y'all.
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<Shinmera>
drewbert: There's also ##lisp for the family of languages, but I don't know how active it is.
<aeth>
##lisp is the channel for the Lisp family of languages
<aeth>
oops, I was beaten to it
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<z3t0_>
are there any oauth2 libraries in common lisp?
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<pjb>
Yes, there are.
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