<Shinmera>
Plus doing the same as mapcar in loop is about the most bog standard thing ever, so your complaint really doesn't hold water.
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<phoe>
TMA: actually IN/ON/ACROSS is pretty sane in LOOP
<phoe>
in (1 2 3) gives you 1, 2, 3; on (1 2 3) gives you (1 2 3), (2 3), (3); across #(1 2 3) gives you 1, 2, 3
<TMA>
I find forgetting most of the LOOP syntax all the time. It is too much like English, yet it is different becasuse formalized. It just makes me afraid that I make some mistake.
<|3b|>
anything but IN wouldn't have worked with MAPCAR anyway :p
<Shinmera>
Then you just aren't using loop enough. Using it less won't help that.
<|3b|>
do i want mapcon, mapl, mapc, etc?
<krwq>
TMA: you can always use being the elements of
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<phoe>
krwq: wait, seriously?
<phoe>
...
<phoe>
holy flipping spheres
<krwq>
phoe: not sure if that was sarcasm or for real :P
<phoe>
I just learned a new things
<phoe>
a new thing*
* |3b|
doesn't see it in the spec
<krwq>
TMA: loop has really flexible syntax - instead of thinking "I want to loop over elements" you should think what you want to do
<krwq>
|3b|: for-as-hash
<krwq>
it might be a bug though :P
<krwq>
no actually that's wrong
<krwq>
might not be documented
<|3b|>
yeah, no elements-of in the grammar for that :)
<|3b|>
probably implementation extension
<krwq>
I think I might have read it in PCL or somewhere but I've used "being the elements of" for a while after I found that it is actually less error prone when you got separate sytntax for list/vector
<Shinmera>
It's not in PCL
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<krwq>
not clue where I read it then but this works on sbcl: (loop for x being the elements of #(1 2 3 4) do (format t "~a~%" x))
<krwq>
TMA in general this is a good case for loops:
<krwq>
(loop for i from 0 for x in '(a b c d) do ...)
<|3b|>
if it works on sbcl, it might work on most others since it uses a popular LOOP implementation... good chance clisp wouldn't like it though
<krwq>
once you learn how to use multiple iterators at once that is super convenient
<aeth>
|3b|: The easy solution is to support every implementation except clisp
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<aeth>
I make a lot of clisp unfriendly assumptions like a fixnum of at least 60 bits and the existence of specialized single-float and double-float arrays.
<aeth>
clisp really needs an update to catch up
<|3b|>
also risks breaking on future implementations
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<Shinmera>
Or current platforms
<krwq>
either way I didn't realize this was undocumented feature
<aeth>
Futuer implementors have a difficult job because there are a lot of de facto standards.
<aeth>
I think most people just test major implementations (perhaps with something like roswell) for breakage, rather than testing against the standard.
* |3b|
wonders how hard it would be to add a loop-style interface to ITERATE, would be nice to have the improvements like more clauses and portable extensibility without having to put up with the annoying non-lispy syntax :)
<|3b|>
(ideally sharing existing extensions with minimal extra work)
<oleo>
loop is more like plain english
<oleo>
lol
<aeth>
loop is more like COBOL?
<aeth>
:-p
<aeth>
Well, COBOL, SQL, Shakespeare, and other programming languages that try to be like English.
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<pagnol>
being new to lisp I just began looking into asdf and in particular the format of asd files, and I noticed that apparently asdf doesn't complain if functions from modules that don't officially depend on each other call each other
<Bike>
that's not a level asdf knows about.
<pagnol>
what about the compiler?
<Bike>
but, it's fine to compile calls to functions that aren't yet defined.
<pagnol>
ah
<aeth>
It's worse than that. Sometimes, it will work now (as you're adding those function calls) until you try to load the ASDF system again with a fresh image
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<Bike>
functions don't strictly need to be defined until they're called, most of the time, which supports the ability to redefine, and such.
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<pagnol>
is there some way to enforce the modularity?
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<pagnol>
somehow the lisp way still evades me
<Bike>
like have a compilation fail if it hits a call to an unknown function?
<pagnol>
hmm
<pagnol>
yes?
<Bike>
asdf might have some hook, but it's not something i'm familiar with
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<pagnol>
I can't give modules their own namespace can I? (unless I prefix everything inside)
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<Bike>
we call namespaces packages. you can have however many you want for a module
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<earl-ducaine>
pagnol: A major aspect of CL is that the language itself doesn't have a concept about systems or modules. Much like Javascript, conventions and tools have grown up address that.
<earl-ducaine>
Don't get confused by CL packages. Some languange environments use the term package and module interchangably. In Lisp packages are very different from what many other languange would call a 'package'
<pagnol>
you're right, I was briefly confused by the terminology
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<aeth>
pagnol: There are three concepts. Packages, systems, and projects. Packages are the thing built into the language and they're about namespaces for symbols. Systems are associated with ASDF. They're probably what you think of when you think "package". Quicklisp has the concept of projects, which afaik is just a collection of systems in a directory.
<pagnol>
aeth, thanks
<|3b|>
cl does have a concept of "module", it just isn't very useful so we ignore it :/
<aeth>
e.g. foo and foo/examples and foo/tests are one project, three systems, and any number of packages depending on the architecture.
<pagnol>
aeth, why three systems? wouldn't you put everything into one system?
<aeth>
There are two ways to do packages. One is to do one package per file, at the top of the file, and it looks a lot like Python or Java in the end. This is the minority style. The majority style is to have one package.lisp for the entire system, or possibly one package.lisp per directory if it's a very large project.
<aeth>
There are three ways to do systems. One is to have one large system for everything except possibly tests and examples if they exist. This is the majority style, especially since most projects are small. Another breaks systems into directories. Another associates systems with files and packages, using this: http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
<pagnol>
then foo would correspond to the server part, say, and bar to the client part, and they share some utils which would be in 'mylibrary'
<pagnol>
but maybe that doesn't make much sense?
<|3b|>
pagnol: examples and tests frequently have dependencies the main library doesn't, and in addition to wasting space they might also conflict with something that is just trying to use the library
<pagnol>
ah good point
<earl-ducaine>
|3b|: it would have been more correct for me to say that CL *has* the concept of a module, but the standard does not define what it is.
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<aeth>
pagnol: If you're doing client and server and utils, you probably want (at least) three systems. Someone who's deploying a server probably isn't interested in what foo/client (or foo.client or com.example.client or however you want to name it) provides.
<pagnol>
so then you would have three separate calls to asdf:defsystem for tests, examples and the actual library/app?
<|3b|>
you might also have things that link your library to another but that are optional, so that would also be reasonable to put in a separate system for use by people who want to use both, while people who only use your library don't need to load the other
<pagnol>
would you put the three calls to defsystem into one .asd?
<aeth>
Yes.
<Bike>
yeah, it's not uncommon to define separate thing, thing/tests, thing/example systems
<Bike>
asdf whines at you if you name them something but foo/whatever
<|3b|>
earl-ducaine: yeah, lack of specification is what makes it less useful
<pagnol>
and inside my project directory have a subdirectory for each system defined with defsystem?
<aeth>
pagnol: If you are breaking things up into subdirectories, unless those subdirectories are just foo/examples/ and foo/tests/ then it makes sense to use separate directories, like foo/client/, foo/server/, and foo/utils/
<aeth>
s/separate directories/separate directories for everything/
<aeth>
For anything really small, it doesn't matter, but if it's large, directories are useful to organize things.
<pagnol>
alright
<pagnol>
thanks
<pagnol>
that was very helpful
<aeth>
If you want to go with a fairly standard style, you should probably have one system definition per directory and one package.lisp in each directory for the package definition.
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<aeth>
(the system definitions do not go in the subdirectories, and can go in one file)
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<earl-ducaine>
pagnol: if you're using quicklisp, you can inspect the ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software directory which will have all the sources quicklisp has downloaded. That will provide you with a wealth of examples of how people have structured their asdf projects.
<aeth>
Or you can set things up once and basically just copy your old project foo.asd file to use for new bar.asd file when you want to make bar instead of foo
<aeth>
If you set things up on your own, you probably want to create a link in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ (or wherever your local-projects directory is) to wherever your project is so Quicklisp can find it as if it was in Quicklisp, e.g. like this: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects/; ln -s ~/git/foo
<aeth>
If you use Quickproject, it automatically registers the system so ASDF and Quicklisp can find it iirc.
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<krwq>
take-new when it asks to override with-genyms
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<Bike>
or just run your defmacro again. the point is whatever macro you have bound to with-gensyms ain't that one
<krwq>
i think he removed it
<krwq>
but i guess only in source code
<krwq>
not uninterned
<wxie>
Ok, it works with alwxandria. Thanks. Is that standard Common Lisp?
<pjb>
Nope.
<pjb>
(ql:quickload :alexandria)
<krwq>
wxie: it is one of the most popular libs though
<Bike>
i mean, the library is written in standard cl
<wxie>
It overrides several CL functions.
<Bike>
alexandria? no it does not.
<wxie>
I was asked to take a few.
<Bike>
your image is in a strange state.
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<wxie>
It's clisp-2.49, and very stable so far.
<Bike>
no, i mean you did some definingn or undefining or package imports or something.
<Bike>
if you start a fresh clisp and load alexandria there should be no conflicts.
<wxie>
ok
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<krwq>
wxie - when you use symbol in your image which doesn't exist it will be interned - after you use alexandria and add the symbol which didn't exist before it will see conflict because you already have it
<krwq>
so the symbol is interned but it is not bound to any function to variable
<krwq>
or variable*
<wxie>
Thanks for helping. Glad that it is solved.
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<shrdlu68>
Good morning, fellow earthlings!
<notzmv>
morning
<notzmv>
happy new year
<shrdlu68>
Happy new orbit
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<shrdlu68>
What's the way to wait till a thread exits in bordeaux-threads? The docs advise against #'join-thread
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<shrdlu68>
Hmm, I could use condition variables...
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<shrdlu68>
Further investigation shows that it happens either way, just not predictably.
<shrdlu68>
Even without printing, why would it count past 7?
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<beach>
It is not specified whether the final value of a loop counter is the last value you specified or one greater.
<beach>
I believe in SBCL it is one greater.
<beach>
Or, maybe it's specified to be wrong. I forget
<beach>
SICL LOOP doesn't have this problem, of course. :)
<shrdlu68>
But (loop for i from 0 to 7 collecting i) always results in '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) in SBCL under normal circumstances.
<Shinmera>
shrdlu68: The problem is that the thread might start after the loop has finished.
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<Shinmera>
If you want to avoid this you need to create a new binding for the index around each thread creation.
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<shrdlu68>
I see. I'm currently creating a new binding _inside_ each thread.
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<phoe>
How can I tell DRAKMA to error if it encounters a response code like 4xx or 5xx?
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<JuanDaugherty>
it will have already done, you just need to hook, it's your job
<JuanDaugherty>
because programmer
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<Xach>
phoe: I generally wrap raw drakma to do things like that when working with apis.
<Xach>
I'll glom all the separate bits into a single response object, then specialize that object, then have a gf that finds an error condition for that object based on all its parts (response code, headers, body)
<Xach>
For some APIs 4xx isn't an error, for example.
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<phoe>
Xach: got it, thanks.
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<Shinmera>
if I remember correctly dexador errors on non-200 codes.
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<phoe>
Shinmera: dexador "is still BETA quality. The APIs will be likely to change."
<phoe>
but I'm nitpicking now. (:
<Shinmera>
Sure, I can't recommend it myself either as I've had it fail on some sites.
<Shinmera>
It is much faster than drakma when it works
<Shinmera>
Which can be important
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<Xach>
What's the difference between Shinmera and Shirakumo?
<Xach>
Shinmera: If I made a feed for build failures, should I lump them together?
<Xach>
I am doing some pattern-matching heuristics
<Shinmera>
I don't know if grouping things into a single feed per author is a good idea. Some people might individually care about failures of a particular project.
<Shinmera>
Unless you're going to offer both.
<Shinmera>
And no, I'm fine with subscribing to multiple feeds, so just doing per-github-account or something is fine by me.
<Shinmera>
No need to put them together.
<Shinmera>
And who knows, maybe some day I'll get lucky and someone else will finally contribute significantly to Shirakumo projects.
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<phoe>
I have a list (A B C D E F ... P Q R ... X Y Z). Is there a function that will get me a subsequence of this list, starting from the beginning, and ending at Q?
<phoe>
Where Q can be any object.
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<phoe>
Or should I just use SUBSEQ with POSITION?
<beach>
(subseq list 0 1+ (position 'Q list)))
<beach>
er, you see what I mean.
<Shinmera>
(loop for c in list until (eq c thing) collect c)
<beach>
You'll miss the Q then.
<Shinmera>
move the until after the collect if you want the q
<phoe>
Got it. Thanks!
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<Xach>
phoe: i have a weird variation
<Xach>
(ldiff list (cdr (member 'q list)))
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<Xach>
i don't see ldiff used a lot.
<_death>
I was just about to say.. but why CDR?
<beach>
So that Q is in the result?
<Xach>
if you want Q as the final object.
<_death>
right, guess I expected a closed interval
<sabrac>
hello everyone
<Xach>
hi sabrac. thanks for making your library comparison pages. they are great.
<beach>
Hello sabrac.
<sabrac>
Thank you. I wish I had more time to work on them because I learn so much doing them.
<sabrac>
Is there anything in particular I should prioritize?
<pagnol>
I sometimes see keywords prefixed with a #, like #:abc, what are those?
<Shinmera>
sabrac: I remember you mailing me about one some months back, but I don't recall it ever getting released
<Shinmera>
I forgot what it was about though :(
<_death>
pagnol: these aren't keywords, but uninterned symbols
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<_death>
pagnol: you should tokenize them in your mind as #: abc rather than # :abc..
<_death>
with package-inferred-systems slashes have semantics
<_death>
also slime will display only the part after the last dot in the repl
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<pagnol>
Xach, is there anything else you use to imitate nested namespaces?
<beach>
pagnol: Hierarchies are not necessarily good.
<beach>
Perhaps it is time to use package-local nicknames.
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<beach>
pagnol: That way, you can use long names for your packages and short ones to refer to them.
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<Xach>
pagnol: for related packages, i use a short or abbreviated prefix and a hyphen.
<Xach>
Some systems use one big package and lump everything into it. I don't like that style a lot - I want the comfort of knowing I won't affect unrelated things in a particular section of a larger project.
<Shinmera>
I use both the FQDN style and the basic hyphen style.
<pagnol>
fqdn?
<Shinmera>
Fully Qualified Domain Name
<sabrac>
_death: Thank you for the reminder on package-inferred systems. I had forgotten about that. Heads off to re-read the asdf documentation.
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<Shinmera>
sabrac: By the way, thanks again for the feedback and bug reports that spawned from the previous articles you wrote :)
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<KZiemian>
AreoNoxi: hello
<sabrac>
Shinmera: Thank you for actually documenting things.
<KZiemian>
AreoNoxi: have you still some question about CLUS
<KZiemian>
AreoNoxi: maybe today I can give you some clues
<Shinmera>
KZiemian: You're typing the name wrong
<KZiemian>
Shinmera: oh, yes you are right
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: hello
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: maybe today I can give more things about CLUS
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<KZiemian>
will we celabreat in some way 60 years of Lisp?
<KZiemian>
my celebration: write 10 real program in CL
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<KZiemian>
maybe give a look o Scheme
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<KZiemian>
*on Scheme
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<KZiemian>
phoe: are you here?
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<pagnol>
I got the impression there's quite a high reliance on global variables in lisp libraries
<shka>
pagnol: special variables with global scope
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<beach>
pagnol: It is a convenient way of having several parameters without passing them explicitly to each function.
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<beach>
pagnol: And in most Common Lisp implementations, a binding of a special variable is thread local (the global value is shared). That makes special variables even more convenient.
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<shka>
and you can shadow dynamic binding with let
<shka>
it is perhaps one of more useful features of lispy languages
<shka>
metabang-bind is cool, btw
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<beach>
Yes, one of the more useful features, together with CLOS, macros, uniform syntax, reader macros, arbitrary precision integers, exact rationals, programmable reader, compiler available at runtime, packages, symbols, the LOOP macro, FORMAT, compiler macros, etc. etc. :)
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<random-nick>
beach: also reader/writer available at runtime
<beach>
That's in the "etc." part. :)
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<shka>
beach: very nice list :D
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<tfb>
shka: I repeatedly find myself having to *implement* dynamic binding in other languages.
<shka>
tfb: ikr
<shka>
dynamic bindings are just very, very useful
<shka>
in some cases, are perhaps just the right thing
<pagnol>
is there something like (defun always (x) (lambda (_) x)) anywhere?
<pagnol>
in lisp
<shka>
pagnol: curry identity
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<shka>
for instance, i can't imagine anything better for *output* stream
<shka>
pagnol: if you are not using alexandria, quickload it, then (alexandria:curry #'identity x) will do the trick
<pagnol>
ah alexandria has a CURRY function
<pagnol>
thanks
<pagnol>
nice
<sonologico>
pagnol: doesn't constantly do this?
<pagnol>
I didn't know constantly
<shka>
oh, forgot about constantly
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<pagnol>
sonologico, that seems to be what I want, thank you
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<sonologico>
pagnol: the resulting function accepts more combinations of arguments than what you wrote, but it does the trick
<pagnol>
does anyone have a recommendation for a simple logging library?
<Shinmera>
Verbose
<Shinmera>
A very biased recommendation I must say.
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<Shinmera>
And it's simple to use, but not necessarily simple in what it does.
<Shinmera>
The simplest logging library in terms of what it does is FORMAT
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<Xach>
uh
<Xach>
phew
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<Shinmera>
Xach: Something wrong?
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<dmiles>
Does anyone know how to get clisp to remember history between sessions with rlwrap?
<dmiles>
(note, rlwrap disables tself since clisp already uses readline)
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<dmiles>
(so checking to see if anyone made clisp disable its readline and forced rlwrap to takeover or suppliment)
<shka>
dmiles: why not just use good old slime?
<dmiles>
sorry.. i think i found a few docs on doing this
<Xach>
Shinmera: reading backscroll, urgently waiting to read CONSTANTLY
<Shinmera>
Xach: heh
<dmiles>
Shinmera: it is because i need to run sbcl,ecl,clisp,abcl in aunified history
<Shinmera>
Slime keeps a repl history too
<dmiles>
right on
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<asarch>
Best wishes to all of you. Happy new year! o/
<loli>
I have a question how best to represent an ADT for CLOS
<loli>
the issue I run into is that I make a few structs to model the type, and I terminate the structure on a symbol
<loli>
but the issue is that symbols don't really play nice when trying to defmethod as other data structures end on a symbol and there would thus be a conflict
<loli>
here is an example of what I'm talking about
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<Xach>
loli: what do you mean when you write that "symbols don't really play nice"?
<loli>
well if I tried to do (defmethod foldr (f x (empty symbol))
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<loli>
this method will now pop up on every symbol instance
<Xach>
loli: instead you would do (defmethod foldr (f x ((empty (eql :empty)))) ...)
<shka>
loli: (eql :empty)
<Xach>
sorry, i have added too many layers
<loli>
you can do that}
<Xach>
(empty (eql :empty))
<Xach>
yes
<loli>
awesome
<loli>
that helps me out a lot
<Xach>
i live to serve
<loli>
as a lot of my data structures end up this way
<shka>
it is surprisingly useful as well
<shka>
for expandable macros and stuff
<Xach>
so useful
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<loli>
expandable macros?
<shka>
macros that allow to add new functionalities to it
<loli>
ahh
<shka>
metabang-bind for instance
<loli>
g! was rather nice
<loli>
I took inspiration from that and made s! for automatic semaphore injection
<loli>
was rather nice to design
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<emaczen>
SBCL from the debugger with SLIME won't find my sources with M-. or v -- what should I try?
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<beach>
Do you have a high DEBUG setting?
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<beach>
emaczen: Do you have a high DEBUG setting?
<emaczen>
I think it is set to 0
<beach>
That might explain it then.
<emaczen>
beach: I will try it out and see
<beach>
I have this in my .sbclrc: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
<beach>
It is unfortunate that SBCL is not delivered with these values as the default.
<beach>
Lots of people just use the default values, and waste a lot of time trying to debug their code with insufficient information generated by the compiler.
<emaczen>
beach: I have been using CCL to debug since it seems to by default always give me a lot of information in the debugger haha
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<beach>
So you are one more victim of SBCL's default values.
<rumbler31>
beach: how would you go about triggering a recompilation once you want to change those values?
<beach>
rumbler31: I guess use :FORCE T with ASDF.
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<emaczen>
beach
<emaczen>
beach: It still won't show me local variables
<emaczen>
It is showing me local variables for SBCL code but not my own
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<parjanya>
beach: what does optimize do? my google powers fail me
<parjanya>
ah, I thought it was sbcl specific. tx!
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<pagnol>
I've begun littering my code with check-type and assert... presumably this is a very unidiomatic style in cl?
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<Bike>
eh, it's ok.
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<pjb>
pagnol: not at all.
<pjb>
pagnol: check-type is what you should use (instead of declare type), in ALL your public functions!
<pjb>
and assert can be used as much as you want.
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<_death>
for some definition of "public"
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<pagnol>
pjb, thanks, that's very comforting ;-)
<pagnol>
presumably sbcl takes advantage of check-type occurrences?
<pjb>
Of course. The post condition of check-type is that the place is bound to an object of the given type.
<_death>
I think with the python compiler one of the big things was also the converse, that type declarations can perform as type checks (forget safety 0)
<Xach>
pagnol: adding lots of checks makes it harder to change things in the future. sometimes that's not very important.
<pagnol>
I only have lynx so can't watch the video
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<shka>
use mplayer, pagnol
<aeth>
pagnol: Macros can easily cause problems and unreadable code, but imo there are three common patterns that are very safe to stick with: define-foo, do-foo, and with-foo. (There are some uncommon ones that are safe, too, like foof, similar to incf or decf, that can be defined trivially via define-modify-macro.)
<aeth>
Pretty much everyone should be able to read these, especially if you stay close to similar APIs.
<aeth>
If you're talking about a define-foo, that appears all of the time. Sometimes it appears as "deffoo" if foo is one word, but please don't do that. Tools like emacs only recognize define-* and built in def* like defun, so your form won't stand out as a define.
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<aeth>
define-foos are global, though, so that might not be what you're talking about.
<aeth>
For local bindings or creation without bindings, it gets a bit more complicated.
<aeth>
(Can classes be defined locally in CL?)
<Bike>
not lexically.
<Bike>
you could do a dynamic binding deal with setf and unwind-protect, though it would be dumb as hell and inconvenient besides.
<pagnol>
I was going to set up a macro that creates a global class
<pagnol>
or just a class
<pagnol>
to be used globally..
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<Bike>
expanding into defclass is fine and normal
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<pagnol>
Bike, it's comforting to know I was not on the wrong track altogether
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<shka>
well
<shka>
try to not write macros
<shka>
or at the very least don't write macros were function will do, or you will use it just a couple of times
<_death>
you can use the mop's ensure-class to create classes, incl. anonymous classes
<pjb>
pagnol: well configured, lynx should be able to show videos in ascii art.
<aeth>
What does lynx offer over elinks?
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<fourier>
is where a nice tutorial on CFFI-Grovel ?
<aeth>
ah, lynx is still getting updates.
<fourier>
or how to create a C file accompanying my lisp code (if I want to implement just one function in C)
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<_death>
the cffi manual?
<fourier>
its kinda really brief on it.
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<fe[nl]ix>
fourier: take a look at iolib
<aeth>
Yeah, look at a library that uses it.
<aeth>
And be prepared to M-. a lot.
<fourier>
fe[nl]ix: thanks, looking into i
<fourier>
t
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I generally like def* more than define-*, editors are programmable for a reason: you should bend the editor to your workflow, not your workflow to the editor.
<Shinmera>
I generally like define-* more than def* and feel it's easier to read and a better convention, so I'm perfectly fine with the editor pushing people in that direction.
<_death>
CL itself is inconsistent with this naming.. I just picked one (define-)
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<fe[nl]ix>
it's def* if it qualifies a single word, define-* if it's two words
<fe[nl]ix>
the only exception if define-condition, so that's pretty ocnsistent
<fiddlerwoaroof>
fe[nl]ix: yeah, that's more or less how I think.
<Shinmera>
That's still a 1/6
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I generally don't find def* less easy to read, since prefixes are pretty normal in ordinary languages
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
And, define- is a bit too verbose for the amount of work it does, to my taste
<Shinmera>
Pshaw
<Shinmera>
People try to skimp on name length too much
<aeth>
Common Lisp the standard has plenty of archaic styles because it does not break backwards compatibility. That doesn't mean that the older APIs should be emulated. e.g. if you're doing a sequence accessor, copy elt or aref, not nth (and the reason is because there might be more than one index, like in aref, which requires the sequence to come first)
<phoe>
defdef
<phoe>
and you're good to go
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<aeth>
(Sorry, I should clarify that aref is only a sequence accessor when it's a 1D array, but that was not really the point with my example.)
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<_death>
fe[nl]ix: interesting observation.. but not sure I've seen evidence for the existence of such a convention.. if it did exist, I suppose CLOS authors found a loophole.. just shorten the term to one word and we can use defgeneric :)
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<pjb>
In-extenso names are all nice and well, but it often occurs that you have to write formula and that you need concision there, to ease readability, just because it's very much harder to read a formula with a lot of references to the same names when they're long and furthermore, when they have common prefixes! This is why there is LET, FLET and MACROLET.
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<_death>
fe[nl]ix: could very well be, since it's similar to the P convention
<_death>
fe[nl]ix: but then I also deviate from the latter convention and stick with -P :)
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<aeth>
The p convention is documented in many places.
<_death>
yep
<aeth>
It has the same issue, though. You can't teach tools that "foop" is supposed to be handled the same as "foo-p" or "foo?" instead of like a word "foop".
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<aeth>
Although I'm not aware of any tools that care.
<_death>
when dealing with conventions nothing is perfect ;)