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<Walex> Zhivago: in the discussion above you have referred to "cell". In Common Lisp that is a "slot", which maps pretty closely to the C notion of 'l-value' (and indeed it is as a rule implemented as an 'l-value'). The "value" slot of a symbol, or the "CAR" and "CDR" slots of "CONS" values, are all "slots", that is have the same semantics as l-values, or "anonymous variables". Because of legacy reasons the relevant sections of CLHS are written with poor terminology an
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<aeth> Walex: your line cut off after "poor terminology an"
<Zhivago> Walex: Sorry -- did you ever get around to the bit which has a point to it?
<aeth> (it's a design flaw of IRC to (1) cut off at an arbitrary point that depends on your nick and the IRC server and (2) not provide any way of knowing that it cut off)
<Zhivago> Also I didn't refer to "cell" -- you seem to be confused.
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<aeth> You're correct that the terminology in CLHS is odd at points. That's not particularly specific to CL, though. Every language has its own, incompatible terminology quirks and it's easy to say the wrong thing if you talk about it to a different language community. Even Scheme uses different words for almost identical concepts as CL (and Scheme is as close as you're going to CL in mainstream languages except elisp)
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<Zhivago> Is that Walex's point -- that the terminology is odd?
<aeth> What's a "list"? A "vector"? An "array"? A "string"? etc. Depends on the language.
<aeth> Zhivago: I think Walex's point is that CL's terminology is incorrect and dated.
<Zhivago> I don't know -- he was going on in some confused fashion about variable bindings earlier.
<Zhivago> I'm not sure that he's caught up to lexical bindings yet.
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<internet1cafe> hi
<loke> Hello
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<loke> Hello Beach!
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<hajovonta> hello beach!
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<phoe> morning everyone
<drdo> morning
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<hajovonta> hi phoe
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<resttime> Is it possible to connect to a lisp REPL on a device where you can only talk with it via a serial connection?
<loke> resttime: Yes.
<loke> resttime: You have to simply tunnel somehow.
<loke> You could, for example set up PPP
<loke> I'm sure there are way of tunneling a serial connection over TCP as well
<loke> And by "tunnel". I mean "expose"
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<resttime> Hmmm, I guess to double check: Suupose there's an embedded ARM system like raspberry pi but can only have a single serial connection to communicate to it with something like 'screen /dev/ttyUSB0' (not SSH). THere is a way to connect on a computer with SLIME to the swank server that a lisp is running on this device?
<resttime> Never done something like this except SSH tunneling, so I suppose this is fairly new to me.
<phoe> resttime: tunnel SSH, that'll be the easiest.
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<resttime> phoe: I don't think the device has that capability which is why I'm kinda stuck
<resttime> Errr, for the device I'm thinking about doing this with that is
<loke> Extending SLIME to support communication over serial should be trivial.
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<jdz> There are "protocols" to multiplex a serial line, for instance XMODEM for file transfer.
<resttime> Hmmm, I'm probably going to have a lot of research to do. Completely new stuff to me.
<jdz> Yes, I just finished reading "UNIX-HATERS Handbook", which states that the stuff from 1980ies should still work today.
<loke> jdz: It does, if you use Unix :-)
<resttime> I was hoping there would be some kind of simple way to just do "SSH tunneling port but with a serial connection"
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<jdz> I've had to poke around with stty and whatnot on OSX to get some stuff working, and I did manage to get it working, so I bet the stuff still works.
<resttime> I suppose topics I should be looking into then is PPP and multiplexing protocols
<jdz> And terminal emulation (welcome to the world of hurt!).
<jdz> Maybe s/terminal/console.
<Zhivago> Linux tun/tap should be easy to run over serial.
<resttime> Yeah, it's that 'screen /dev/ttyUSB0' can drop me into a busybox shell on the device and I was wondering if I could do the stuff I would do if I used like SSH on tunneling the swank server port
<Zhivago> Well, you could if you ran a network over that serial line.
<Zhivago> Otherwise you might need to think about it more.
<d4ryus> Are you able to start a swank instance listening on a local port? or is there no network at all?
<phoe> d4ryus: if he had network, he wouldn't need to use serial I guess.
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<d4ryus> i had a broken ethernet on my pi and no wifi available. But i was able to start swank and then tunnel stuff via usb terminal and netcat. Was quite a hack yes, but it worked
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<resttime> Hmmmm, that's reassuring to know. I suppose I will also try and explore whether it's possible to enable networking. I've so far assumed it wasn't because connections with the device have been only serial with the screen utility and I would imagine people would want to switch to something better if they could (hence conclusion that couldn't)
<resttime> Like I remember someone mentioning using zmodem to get files from the device.
<resttime> Then they found out that screen could do it too
<resttime> This unix connections stuff is so far kinda an anomaly to me
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* Xach kermit
<raynold> ahh it's a wonderful day
<phoe> XachX: are you a muppet now
<Xach> was just thinking of serial interfaces
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<rumbler31> Xach: have you seen hoppi?
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<Xach> rumbler31: what's hoppi?
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<dwts> hey guys, has anyone used lisp for generating code in other languages? I believe I've read this is not that uncommon for lisp. I was thiking about writing lisp code to generate terraform code for me
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<nyef`> dwts: Umm... You realize that any native-code lisp compiler fits that definition, right?
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<dwts> nyef`: native as in machine code? I'm interested in generating terraform code which is more like json
<Zhivago> There is nothing particularly special about lisp for that task in either direction.
<Zhivago> nyef's point is that what you are describing is a compiler, of which there are many written in lisp.
<dwts> oh
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<dwts> maybe transpiler is more correct? but now I see nyef`'s point
<nyef`> Another example would be from the "XP" paper, where they abuse the lisp pretty-printer to produce Pascal syntax.
<dwts> hm, let me search that
<Bike> json isn't really a programming language, though?
<beach> I am pretty sure it's a common technique.
<dwts> yes, but it could still be treated like code
<nyef`> No, JSON is a serialized data format. But it's also a subset of JavaScript.
<nyef`> ... ECMAScript? HotWired? Something like that.
<Bike> dunno what you mean by "treated like code". just saying that writing out data structures can be a little easier.
<nyef`> (ECzeMAScript?)
<Bike> data is code, but people deal with "data" more, so they give it better formats
<nyef`> dwts: I don't know, I get a "service temporarily unavailable" from that link.
<dwts> Bike: well I want to use lisp to generate some tfvar files. then these files can be executed by terraform
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<Bike> i'm sure it's doable
<dwts> nyef`: yeah, The site is temporarily down while we do some maintenance. It will be back up shortly.
<dwts> that's what I get atm
<dwts> Bike: understood
<Bike> i don't see an actual syntax description, but https://www.terraform.io/intro/getting-started/variables.html looks simple enough
<Zhivago> Transpilers are just compilers.
<dwts> yeah, I just want to automate some processes, I don't want to copy/paste then edit files every time I'm creating a new instance.
<dwts> Zhivago: sure, I just got the impression that when compilers mentioned earlier machine code was implied
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<Bike> sometimes it is, but drawing distinctions like that becomes untenable pretty fast
<Zhivago> Machine code is often not machine code.
<Zhivago> Or, conversely, what is the code that a javascript machine runs?
<Bike> in any case this is a configuration file format. doesn't look like it has any control flow. easy
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<dwts> roger, thank you guys
<Bike> and it accepts json too. So you could skip work and use one of the existing json output dealies.
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<dwts> yes it does accept json too but I prefer tf syntax
<Zhivago> So that you can take advantage of its string interpolation? :)
<dwts> lol
<Zhivago> If you're generating it as output you might as well make it the simplest and stupidest format available with the best library support.
<Zhivago> Machine generated code trying to be clever is a recipe for excitement.
<Zhivago> Particularly coupled with what is probably a buggy parser that isn't used by a zillion people.
<dwts> I was planning to feed it us input after generating it to the terraform tool to create me some ec2 instances
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<dwts> Zhivago: it's open source, so you can go bug hunting if you are interested: https://github.com/hashicorp/terraform , although you don't sound very excited about it :P
<Zhivago> I would rather stab myself in the face with a fish-fork.
<Bike> What's the difference between a fish fork and a regular proletarian fork? Longer middle tine?
<Bike> er... antitine.
<dwts> Zhivago: your nickname is familiar, i think I've seen your nick in C related irc channels in the past. You'd rather stab yourself because of go or because you disklike that specific tool? :P
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<dwts> why proletarian though? :P
<Zhivago> Than go bug hunting in yet another random configuration language implementation by some well intentioned people.
<Bike> "Fish forks (and knives) often have an incurve shaped form (pictured); we believe this feature was simply to differentiate it from all the other forks that could be present on the table, as potentially there could be a considerable amount." nice
<Zhivago> The fish-fork, ... yes.
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<Zhivago> Although I understand that the incision is to accommodate the spine of the fish.
<dwts> Zhivago: you sound disappointed, are you preparing me for the worse? :p
<Zhivago> Disappointed in what?
<dwts> in configuration language implementations?
<Zhivago> Oh, not at all -- I am looking forward to hearing your tale of woe at some point so that I can then refer back to the logs and tell you that I told you so.
<dwts> lol
<dwts> Zhivago: to be honest i've had some bad experiences with puppet :P
<dwts> and soon I'll have to start learning chef
<dwts> so yeah, keep the logs
<Zhivago> I'm looking forward to when they start naming them after serial killers.
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<nyef`> Or the origin of the phrase "going postal"?
<Younder> that postal worker from NY
<Younder> mad max
<Zhivago> Should probably have been "going NYC".
<Younder> Currently it seems only movies are qualified ;)
<Zhivago> Although if you do visit NYC, I recommend rowing on the Hudson river.
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<Younder> Xach love it when I introduce this as a channel for the vocally impaired
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<nyef`> Younder: Wikipedia's list of postal killings doesn't include a single incident in NYC.
<nyef`> Or NY at all.
<nyef`> A couple in NJ, though.
<dwts> Zhivago: lol, I don't like the idea
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<_rumbler31> application for talking over serial/usb connections from lisp to a calculator
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<Younder> I use kermit to connect to my old HP50p
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<Younder> _rumbler31, if you are using kermit anyhow why not writer script in kermit. I don't see the need for Lisp.
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<johnnybanana> Hello could someone help me with a lisp problem?
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<Younder> Depends on the problem I guess,
<Younder> perhaps you should just state it
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<johnnybanana> so i am trying to define a macro
<_rumbler31> Younder: I didn't make it, and I referenced it both for looking into the cocoa apis for enumerating connected serial/usb devices, as well as using them to communicate with them from lisp in my own work, not necessarily using kermit
<johnnybanana> that will take any number of expressions and have each be evaluated and printed in order, using the "=>" format, with semicolons separating pairs
<Younder> so a PAIP style lang?
<johnnybanana> (let ((x 3) (y 2)) (macro-call (+ x y) x y)) (+ X Y) => 5;X => 3;Y => 2
<Bike> Okay. How's it going.
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<johnnybanana> this is what I have so far: (defmacro macro-call (expr) `(format t "~&~S => ~S~%" ',expr ,expr))
<johnnybanana> how to i make it for multiple expressions?
<_rumbler31> format will let you do that!
<Bike> it just means you need to output one of those for each expr.
<johnnybanana> Im not sure how to incorporate the semicolons in the format
<_rumbler31> you can give an argument that is a list, and a few control caracters will iterate through it and use the list as the source of each iteration
<Bike> so (macro-calls x y) macroexpands into like (progn (macro-call x) (macro-call y))
<Bike> or (progn (macro-call x) (write-string ";") (macro-call y)) if you want.
<johnnybanana> _rumbler31: How could i implement that with format?
<_rumbler31> looking it up now
<johnnybanana> Bike: what does write-string do?
<Bike> outputs a string
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<_rumbler31> so (format nil "~{ => ; ~A ~}" (mapcar #'eval macro-body-arg))
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<Bike> don't eval.
<johnnybanana> what is eval for?
<Bike> it evaluates forms. you should not use it here.
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<_rumbler31> well how else do you get the output of each form
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<johnnybanana> Bike: how could I improve my code?
<johnnybanana> this is what i have
<johnnybanana> (defmacro macro-call (@body args) `(format nil "~{ => ; ~A ~}" (mapcar #'eval ,@args)))
<Bike> _rumbler31: expand into something, like they'd already wrote.
<Bike> With their original definition, (macro-call x) => (format t "~&~s => ~s~%" 'x x) which works fine.
<Bike> there's no need to use eval. you don't want to use eval, both for general style reasons, and because it makes the original example impossible since eval doesn't know about lexical bindings.
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<_rumbler31> Bike: oh, its a macro, so the forms get
<_rumbler31> put back, and evalutated like normal
<Bike> yes.
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<Bike> johnnybanana: what you can do is just expand into several format calls like the one you already had. one for each form. no need for fancier format strings, and definitely no need to loop at runtime
<johnnybanana> how will I know how many format calls to have though
<Bike> you have one for each argument to the macro, of course.
<Bike> (defmacro macro-calls (&rest forms) ...you can just do (length forms) here.
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<Bike> (but it might be more natural to use mapcar etc)
<_rumbler31> I"ll totally concede that use of format iteration is "cute" for this use
<johnnybanana> Hm let me try that out
<johnnybanana> So this is what I have (defmacro macro-call (&rest form) `(mapcar #'(format t "~&~S => ~S~%" ',form ,form) ,@form))
<johnnybanana> Im trying to test with this (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (macro-call (+ x y) x y))
<johnnybanana> in the hopes of this being printed "(+ X Y) => 3;X => 1;Y => 2"
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<Bike> No
<Bike> Do not expand into mapcar
<Bike> that doesn't even make sense, what is #'(format
<Bike> I already gave you an example of what your expansion could look like, try aiming for that
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<_rumbler31> oh I see
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<_rumbler31> at runtime he wants to emit "=>" so the inner body will look like (write-string " => ; ") (form1) ...
<johnnybanana> _rumbler31: any thoughts?
<_rumbler31> bike is smarter than me
<_rumbler31> so listen to him
<warweasle> _rumbler31: To be fair, Bike is smarter than a lot of people.
<warweasle> But that's just because he's a lisper. :P
<Zhivago> What actual problem is johnny trying to solve?
<beach> I am guessing a "homework problem".
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<phoe> Is there a simple way to use drakma to download files into a directory, like wget?
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<phoe> Because I just realized that I'm about to reinvent wget with my custom code, and that doesn't sound good.
<warweasle> I had to alias wgit to wget...because git.
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<phoe> eudoxia: thanks.
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<phoe> That's what I needed.
<bansheee> Could someone help me with a problem I am stuck on?
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<Bike> Sure, describe it.
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<bansheee> Could someone help me with a problem I am stuck on?
<pjb> Not if no don't tell us more about your problem.
<pjb> s/\<no\>/you/
<_death> the problem of asking if someone could help him with a problem he's stuck on
<phoe> I need a MULTIPLE-VALUE-MAPCAR
<_death> like (m-v-c #'mapcar ...) ?
<warweasle> phoe: Like a destructing-bind?
<SaganMan> when you're in irc, it's general rule to not ask if someone can help.
<nirved> what would multiple-value-mapcar return? collecting the values as well?
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<phoe> yes, collecting the values, but collecting multiple values into multiple lists
<SaganMan> multiple valued mapcar?
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<phoe> SaganMan: yes, one that can operate on forms that return multiple values
<oleo> what about mapcar 'list then ?
<phoe> mapcar on gethash will only give you the first value.
<phoe> oleo: what do you mean?
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<oleo> (mapcar 'list '(a b c d))
<Bike> if you can specify the number of values beforehand it shouldn't be hard.
<warweasle> phoe: Oh, I see. That is a clever operation.
<Bike> otherwise it would be kind of tricky to account for different calls returning different values and stuff.
<SaganMan> won't the result of that be ((a)(b)(c)(d))?
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<warweasle> phoe: (alexandria:MULTIPLE-VALUE-COMPOSE can do what you need.
<phoe> Bike: wouldn't be too tricky. the multiple-value-mapcar would keep an internal counter of how many values were at most returned; every time this counter is bumped up, new dummy list(s) filled with NILs are returned.
<phoe> warweasle: let me look.
<nirved> if using it on hash table there's maphash
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<phoe> oooh, that is nice.
<phoe> nirved: gethash is just an example.
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<Bike> well, i wrote it for one list
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<Bike> nth returning nil instead of erring unexpectedly convenient
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<skrtskrt> I am currently working on a macro where it takes a list of variables and a body of code, and ensures that the variables revert to their original values after the body of code is evaluated
<phoe> skrtskrt: what do you mean, revert?
<phoe> do you mean that you store their values somewhere before the body of code, execute the code, and then set the variables to these stored values?
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<skrtskrt> This is what I have so far
<phoe> skrtskrt: your indentation is off
<skrtskrt> for example : (let ((x 'a)) (var-revert (x) x)) should end up with 'a
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<skrtskrt> So the code is fine, but how can I minimize this to just one macro
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<phoe> macrolet is the trivial solution
<phoe> just make one macro local to the other
<phoe> ...aw shit
* phoe just killed his lisp with (defvar *foo* #1=(1 2 3 . #1#))
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<Bike> might try putting a *print-length* definition in your rc
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<phoe> it actually wasn't about printing methinks
<phoe> because DEFVAR would print *FOO*
<phoe> the backtrace shows that it went into a loop on #'LENGTH
<phoe> ...why on earth would it call LENGTH?
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<_death> you likely wanted to quote it
<Bike> Oh, because you didn't quote it.
<phoe> aw shit
<phoe> you are correct
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<phoe> now that is a function call with an infinite argument list
<phoe> Bike: do you have your code anywhere nearby?
<Bike> you mean the code I just wrote? i can paste it if you like.
<phoe> since I just realized that a MULTIPLE-VALUE-MAP{CAR,CAN,LIST,CON} would be really handy.
<phoe> Bike: yes.
<phoe> this feels like yak shaving
<phoe> let's do it
<Bike> (let ((hash (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash 'fuck hash) t (gethash 'shit hash) nil) (multiple-value-mapcar (rcurry #'gethash hash) '(fuck shit stack)) => (T NIL NIL), (T T NIL)
<phoe> now we need to generalize it to an arbitrary number of arglists.
<phoe> ...shouldn't be too hard, I think we only need to modify the first LET* binding
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<phoe> well, this does become complex
<phoe> we need a minimum length of all argument lists but maximum length of all multiple-value-lists
<_death> I doubt the usefulness of these constructs..
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<_death> better to just work on lists instead of pretending that you're dealing with multiple values..
<phoe> I have a function that returns multiple values.
<Bike> for the argument lists you can do (loop for l = lists then (mapcar #'cdr l) until (some #'endp l) collecting (multiple-value-list (apply function (mapcar #'first l))))
<Bike> or something.
<phoe> I want to mapcar this function over a sequence and not lose any data in the process.
<_death> phoe: then use multiple-value-list to get a list of the values and work on this list
<phoe> hm, for me this means destructuring-bind + multiple-value-list + some means of collecting the results.
<phoe> also, multiple-value-list isn't a function. I cannot use it in mapcar.
<_death> rather than back-and-forth translating between mechanisms
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<phoe> ...I think I got it, just let me test real quick
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<_rumbler31> johnnybanana: you figure it out?
<phoe> woah
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<phoe> Bike: I allowed myself to blog it at https://blog.teknik.io/phoe/p/1604 - I hope you have nothing against it.
<Bike> death of the author, bruh (this is EXACTLY what that phrase means)
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<phoe> death of the author is one thing, but you wrote the code, you hold the copyright
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<phoe> aaah, works just as it should. that was good yak shaving time - thanks, folks.
<phoe> Another thing.
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<phoe> How can I find a string that is the most #'STRING> of all the strings from a list?
<phoe> ...wasn't I discussing such a function on #lisp about a year ago or something?
<Bike> alexandria:extremum
<phoe> Bike: perfect, thank you.
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<KZiemian> Hello World
<KZiemian> I have a question
<shka> yes?
<KZiemian> I need to learn some ccldoc
<shka> phoe: ping
<shka> phoe: KZiemian needs you
<KZiemian> only place that I found to this moment ist this
<KZiemian> shka: I try to find phoe from almost half a hauer
<shka> KZiemian: sorry, i can't help with ccldoc myself
<KZiemian> shka: no problem, in worst case
<shka> i ended up writing my own documentation tool
<KZiemian> shka: I will hunt phoe tomorow
<KZiemian> shka: good for you :)
<shka> heh not so sure about that!
<KZiemian> personaly I don't know why we decided on ccldos
<KZiemian> ccldoc
<shka> well, options are somewhat lackluster
<KZiemian> I was off for a month doing my part of job
<KZiemian> I go back and order is to work in ccldoc
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<shka> honestly, all existing documentation tools are suboptimal
<KZiemian> shka: I don't know pros and cons, but better do anything than noting
<shka> including my own
<shka> ideally, i would rewrite it
<shka> but no time for that
<KZiemian> shka: this same is true with every my program
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<KZiemian> shka: I have no idea about existing documenation tools
<shka> well, to be fair even gnu cat get's updates so perhaps there is no such thing as perfect application
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<KZiemian> shka: even if there suboptimal is better that put this project longer in the state of coma
<shka> yup
<shka> i will eventually try to build proper documentation tool
<shka> i know more about the problem now!
<KZiemian> thatnk you :)
<Younder> KZiemian, arent you the guy I talked to on RUST
<KZiemian> Younder: I only reamber talking about RUST few times
<KZiemian> Younder: only face to face talks
<KZiemian> Younder: at least I don't remeber any thing more then that
<phoe> KZiemian: #ccl
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<phoe> this channel might be more helpful since ccldoc is pretty ccl-specific
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<KZiemian> phoe: I was there, but because was quiet I come here
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<KZiemian> phoe: I need few tips
<KZiemian> phoe: we talk today or in the future?
<KZiemian> phoe: I send my question on Discord
<KZiemian> phoe: I try to catch you on Discord or #ccl
<KZiemian> ?
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<KZiemian> I must go, it is to late here
<KZiemian> say you
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<Younder> rust is a quiet thing
<Younder> try one of the noisy groups like Haskell, they should be right up your alley. You are a Haskell programmer you just don't know it yet
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<Younder> If, like me, you love math
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<whoman> haskell taught me math, or i learned math thru/with haskell
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