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<Josh_2> Vector access time is O(1) right?
<Josh_2> but list is O(n)? something like that
<Josh_2> I don't know how to represent the access time of lists O:
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<Bike> O(n), yes.
<Josh_2> and Vectors are O(1)?
<Bike> yes.
<Bike> in a framework where memory caches don't exist, anyway.
<Josh_2> Thanks :) Just double checking as I'm putting this into a presentation that's a large chunk of my grade
<Bike> idealized vector access is an addition to get the memory address followed by an access of the memory address. list access is a memory access for each cons cell traversed, etc
<Josh_2> Yeah
<Josh_2> Thanks :D
<Josh_2> What addition is made?
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<pierpa> the base address of the vector + the index accessed
<Josh_2> Thanks :D
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<dmiles> something i dont get is on the page http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm .. #'MACROEXPAND uses "&optional env" ... but for a macro lambdalist, one uses "&environment env" like (defmacro expand-1 (form &environment env) ... ) ?
<dmiles> the question is about if the " &environment env" ends up being optiuonal
<dmiles> I mean in practice
<dmiles> i mean treated exactly like an &optional
<Bike> it's completely different
<Bike> When you write a macro form, you can't provide an environment
<Bike> the &environment in the lambda list indicates the compiler should pass the environment
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<Bike> if you have (defmacro expand-1 (form &environment env) ...), (expand-1 foo) is legal and (expand-1 foo bar) is not.
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<dmiles> oh so actualy MACROEXPAND and MACROEXPAND-1 would not been able to be macros?
<Bike> i don't understand the grammar of your question.
<dmiles> macroexpand is a function... so i was thinking aobut if it was a macro
<dmiles> (i know i switched topics sorta fast from my original question)
<Bike> macroexpand having an &optional env is different from a macro having an &environment env. the former allows an environment to be explicitly provided by the programmer. the latter just means that the macroexpander wants to use the environment the macro form is in.
<dmiles> how would #'macroexpand gain access to a a Env ?
<dmiles> (if it was "unsupplied)
<Bike> it doesn't. if you don't supply an environment it uses the global environment.
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<dmiles> ok.. now it makes more sense
<dmiles> .. so (defmarco expand-1 arg &optional (env env-supplied-p) &environment env) might have been used if expand-1 wanted to be like macroexpand-1 ?
<Bike> your lambda list is kind of garbled.
<dmiles> oops yes
<Bike> but if i understand it correctly, no. macroexpand-1 doesn't know about the environment it's called in.
<Bike> no function knows about the lexical environment it's called from.
<dmiles> i think that actually does answer a question i was going to ask..
<dmiles> but the (defmacro my-expand-1 (arg &optional penv &environment env) .. (let ((env-i-use (if penv penv env))) ... some code using env-i-use .. )
<dmiles> oh actualy now i see how what you said sort of answers my question
<dmiles> the 'env' in this case was not just the global env
<dmiles> the 'env' in this case was not just the global env?
<Bike> if you have an &environment parameter, within the body of the macroexpander it will be bound to the environment the macro form is in. Let me give you an example.
<Bike> say we have (defmacro dumb () 4)
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<dmiles> (ah, i had sorta assumed the &environment env was just so the body would have a convience var named 'env for the global env :P)
<Bike> that would be pointless.
<dmiles> (ok go on)
<Bike> now say we have (defmacro pexpand (form &environment env) (print (macroexpand-1 form env)) nil)
<Bike> so it always expands into nil, but prints something at macroexpansion time.
<Bike> if you have (pexpand (dumb)) it prints 4.
<Bike> But if you have (macrolet ((dumb () 5)) (pexpand (dumb))) it prints 5.
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<Bike> In contrast, say you have (defmacro dumb-pexpand (form) (print (macroexpand-1 form)) nil)
<Bike> then (dumb-pexpand (dumb)) => 4, but (macrolet ((dumb () 5)) (dumb-pexpand (dumb)) => 4. Because it doesn't use the local environment, it just uses the global one.
<dmiles> ah, i see.. it really is about allowing macrolet to have a little highgene
<dmiles> hygene*
<Bike> i have no idea what you mean.
<dmiles> well i was thinking macrolet is scoped in the body it appears
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<dmiles> but this way it allows it to be used outside and still not be in the global
<Bike> macrolet establishes a lexical environment with a macro in it.
<Bike> i don't understand what you're saying.
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<dmiles> FLET and MACROLET are scoped in a lexical enviroment.. the way they get decared is locally.. but that would place a limit on where they can be used
<Bike> a limit?
<Bike> you can use flet or macrolet wherever.
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<Bike> you could think of them as "placing limits" on the use of what they define.
<dmiles> they will be limited to the local enviroment they get defined in
<Bike> they define/bind things in a lexical scope.
<Bike> The environment accessible with &environment contains information about these lexical scopes.
<dmiles> why i call it a limit.. is if you use them within the scope you dont need to think about passing env arround
<Bike> If macroexpand doesn't receive an environment parameter, it uses the global environment, which has no information about lexical bindings as produced by flet or macrolet.
<Bike> As such, macroexpanders that need to expand other macros would behave badly if there was no &environment available.
<dmiles> i might have to set up a testcase in the next couple houirs once i fix my current trouble
<dmiles> what i was wondering is if other macroexpansions still use just the global enviroment even inside the lexical scope
<Bike> Other macroexpansions?
<dmiles> why i need to write it out into a body form :P
<Bike> I don't understand.
<dmiles> i9 am saying i doublt i can explain in english.. i'd have to write the code
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<Bike> Is English not your first language? I have a hard time understanding what you try to convey.
<dmiles> yes but i have a hard time using english
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<dmiles> so in about an hour .. i'll try to have the question better layed out
<Bike> Okay. I might be asleep at that time.
<dmiles> (the question about if macrolet can define macros that get used inside the same lexical scope but not actualyl defined in the same scope))
<loke> Perhaps he's asking about macros that expand into other macro calls?
<Bike> beats me.
<dmiles> yes that is what i am asking
<loke> Like (defmacro foo (..) ...) (defmacro bar (...) `(foo ...))
<Bike> Aren't you writing an interpreter or compiler of some kind, dmiles?
<loke> dmiles: The answer is that the unexpanded macro is returned from the first macro call. Then the compiler looks at the result of that first macro, and repeats by expanding the second macro.
<loke> In other words, the recursive macro call isn't expanded by the macro itself.
<dmiles> Bike: yes.. so i am trying to confirm that wheter or not the macrolet should be invisible to other macros that get called by other macros
<Bike> Your terminology is confused. Macros are not called.
<Bike> But, if you're writing an evaluator it's simple enough to explain the rules.
<Bike> You have (defun eval (form env) ...). The first thing that ... does is macroexpand: just (macroexpand form env). macroexpand repeatedly calls macroexpand-1, as you probably know.
<dmiles> *nod*
<dmiles> (go on)
<Bike> macroexpand-1 is something like (defun macroexpand-1 (form &optional env) (if (consp form) (let ((mf (macro-function (first form) env))) (if mf (funcall *macroexpand-hook* mf form env) ...
<Bike> In other words, it looks up the macro definition in the environment it's passed, and if it's there, calls macroexpand-hook. macroexpand-hook is basically funcall, so the macroexpander function is called with two arguments, the form to expand, and the environment.
<Bike> If the definition of the macro had an &environment, that's the environment it gets. if not it's ignored.
<Bike> Now, if the form passed to eval is a macrolet form, like say (macrolet ((foo ...)) ...body...), all it does is recursively evaluate body in a new environment that includes the definition of foo.
<Bike> like (defun eval (form env) ... (if (eq (first form) 'macrolet) ... (eval (cddr form) (augment-with-macros (second form) env)) ...
<dmiles> i am starting to see now
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<dmiles> i would have assumed that macrolet created a "special macro" with the meaning as "special" in "special vars" that as they are being (i'll stick with special vars (forget macros for the moment) as theire bindings are availbel shadowed in the global enviironment)
<dmiles> i was thinking that macrolet would shadow any of its uses at the same level of its env
<dmiles> (meaning it would not be usefull tp ass env to subsequent calls.. as the shadow macro would be present)
<Bike> I don't know what that means but it sounds complicated.
<dmiles> i dont see this happen hardly wuith macrolet.. but i see it all the time with labels
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<dmiles> that a defun is overridden in a lexical scope
<Bike> You can shadow bindings, yes.
<dmiles> i dont need to pass an environment argument to make things use the right shadow
<Bike> The environment describes what's present. It includes shadowing.
<Bike> My earlier pexpand example showed that the environment includes shadow bindings.
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<dmiles> ahah
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<basket> Good morning, beach
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<Josh_2> Morning
<shka> Josh_2: good morning
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<Josh_2> This is not really lisp related although it is something I did in lisp :P anyways Quicksort has an average performance of O(n log n) and I have a real time of 15ms, how do I check if my sorting algorithm is hitting it's ideal time or not?
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<Josh_2> There is the point that it is doing more than just sorting so that's going to cause some issues
<Josh_2> I have a graph that is pretty linear
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<Zhivago> Have it report the nunmber of interesting operations it did.
<beach> Josh_2: That is going to be very hard for a single test case.
<Josh_2> well I have 16 different tests
<Zhivago> Then you'll be able to see the actual O for that particular input.
<beach> Josh_2: With different sizes of the input?
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<Josh_2> No the sizes are the same in all of them
<beach> Josh_2: Then you can't test it.
<beach> Josh_2: O(n log n) means that it is less than or equal to k*n*log(n) for some k, but you don't know the k.
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<beach> Josh_2: So no matter what your timing shows, you can always find a k that makes it true.
<Josh_2> Ahh okay, well it is always sorting the same number of elements, but the variation in the elements change, causing quicksort to become faster than bucket sort
<Josh_2> The larger the variation the slower bucket sort becomes
<beach> Still, it is always going to be on the average O(n log n) for some k, no matter how many inputs you give it.
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<Josh_2> Alrighty, I'll mention that the average is correct, but that the change in bucketsort is obvious
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<Josh_2> I have to give a presentation..
<beach> Mentioning that the average is correct is not going to give any information, because the average is always correct for any finite number of test cases.
<beach> So you are going to look ignorant if you say that.
<beach> It would be better to check something like how good the choice of pivot is.
<Josh_2> Well the spec is asking me to compare the times I got with theoretical times..
<beach> How close to the median element it is.
<beach> OK, good luck with that then.
<beach> Since theoretical times can be arbitrarily high.
<Josh_2> Well
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<Josh_2> I already dicked my grade by doing sorting algorithms. My own fault for wasting a load of time because I didn't read the spec properly..
<Josh_2> It's okay though, I was allowed to use CL <3
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<beach> Are you sorting a list or a vector?
<Josh_2> vector
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<hajovonta> hi all!
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<cess11_> hajovonta: Hi!
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<knobo> I'd like to do patternmatching to get the most spesific result. Something like this: https://gist.github.com/knobo/adb1bfaa6756161d39b4f2b35fc89d5b
<knobo> Maybe I could use optima?
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<jackdaniel> your snippet doesn't clarify anything to me. to answer the question; optima may be used to do pattern matching from the most specific, if you arrange clauses in correct order (same as with cond really)
<knobo> I see.
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<Xach> I thought I would miss lisppaste more, but gist is pretty fine.
<jdz> There's also lpaste.net.
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<Xach> likes. sbcl 1.4.2 and new asdf busts some stuff, it seems.
<Xach> yikes, rather.
<Xach> http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-12-04/failure-report/sb-cga.html#sb-cga is key to a number of them - I don't understand it, does anyone else?
<jdz> ASDF has started issuing warnings about test system definitions that do not follow the ASDF's naming convention?
<Xach> that's part of the fun
<Xach> i do not like it very much, but it is not fatal
<Xach> i'm guessing something to do with madeira-port's customization of asdf
<jdz> I would also guess that SBCL should not be compiling a "CCL port".
<Xach> madeira-port manages that with feature expressions
<Xach> it's a meta-project for asdf system definitions
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<jdz> Xach: is that "madeira-port" system?
<jdz> It loads just fine for me with SBCL-1.4.2.9
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<Xach> jdz: sb-cga makes use of madeira-port in a way that seems to fail for me. can you load sb-cga?
<jdz> Yep, getting the same error.
<Xach> Ok.
<jdz> It's a failed assertion.
<jdz> Well, you probably already know that.
<Xach> and tpapp just announced no more lisp for him, too
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<jdz> tpapp?
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<Xach> tamas k. papp
<Xach> he switched to julia or something
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<jdz> I can load array-operations, though.
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<jdz> The problem with sb-cga could be due to madeira-port not being up-to-date with a recent ASDF.
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<Xach> jdz: array-operations is a warning, so you will get a failure if you use :verbose t
<jdz> Loads successfully (with warnings) even with :verbose t.
<Xach> jdz: i think sbcl 1.4.2.9 has the fix already, actually
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<jdz> Yes, the problem with array-operations seems to be unrelated to the ASDF problem.
<jdz> And yes, array-operations on GitHub has an "abandoned" badge since Oct 29 (the only commmit in over 4 years).
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<jackdaniel> is it a popular dependency?
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<paule32> hello
<paule32> i working on string's
<paule32> and i would like know, how translators works
<paule32> i know/read there a hash tables
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<paule32> but how to build up, and look into?
<paule32> as example
<paule32> "you" -> translated into german "ich, du, er, sie, es"
<paule32> "how" -> transl. german: "wie"
<paule32> "are" -> transl. german: "wie"
<paule32> "how are you": -> transl. german: "wie geht es dir"
<jdz> General AI is not part of Common Lisp.
<paule32> have i todo provide a list of word/words for each sentence?
<jdz> (setf (gethash "you" *word-table*) '("ich" "du" "er" "sie" "es"))
<jackdaniel> check out library `translate`
<jackdaniel> it's in quicklisp and is really small
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<chenbing> hi ,is jess a full subset language of lisp? especially of common lisp
<jackdaniel> what is jess?
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<chenbing> jess is a rule engine for java platform and it has lisp features
<jdz> How does "has lisp features" relate to "a full subset of common lisp"?
<jackdaniel> I don't see any lisp reference at first glance (not to mention common lisp)
<jackdaniel> I highly doubt it is CL subset
<jdz> Well, it's not too hard to be a subset of CL.
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<jackdaniel> true that
<jackdaniel> but that would impose, that you can run jess programs in CL
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<jackdaniel> and since it introduces some rule operators, they would have to be implemented in this subset as well. if they are implemented in (say) Java, then valid program in Jess may simply not work on conforming CL implementation (unless you re-implement Jess in CL)
<jdz> Pretty sure (call java.lang.Thread sleep 100) (from FAQ) is not a subset of CL .
<chenbing> it just can runing in jvm
<chenbing> call java api is a huge plus
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<jackdaniel> yes, my point is that if it roots in java in it's core functionality, then it is not subset of CL
<chenbing> yes i should be more serious
<chenbing> after some my due dilligence
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<_death> in my view calling java api is a huge minus
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<chenbing> haha :-)
<pjb> If it ran in abcl, it could be a subset of CL and you could still call java api.
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<Bike> superset of a subset of lisp, as they say
<chenbing> yeah I ran out of lisp a long time , it's time for me to back
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<paule32> (defparameter *word-table* (make-hash-table))
<paule32> (setf (gethash "you" *word-table*) '("ich" "du" "er" "sie" "es"))
<paule32> brings me error
<paule32> (print (gethash "you" *word-table"))
<whoman> what error.
<pjb> WHAT error?
<pjb> paule32: (there's not a lot of syntax in lisp, but there's still some syntax, and syntax matters!)
<Bike> ask yourselves: do you really need more of this in your lives?
<pjb> Good question.
<paule32> end of file on #<SB-INT:FORM-TRACKING-STREAM for "file /home/jens/Projekte/ai/test/kallup.lisp" {1004A40C53}>
<paule32> (in form starting at line: 286, column: 0, position: 7307)
<Bike> maybe paule32 can find a nice community somewhere that uses a language they can understand and react to, rather than hanging out here for a year and still not knowing what an error is
<Bike> it's *word-table*. you wrote *word-table"
<pjb> Well, there's #clnoobs
<Bike> but it won't work as you want anyway because the hash table uses an eql test
<pjb> paule32: could read clhs make-hash-table and notice that it's possible to use another test… But this may be over his IQ level.
<whoman> sigh. humans can live in any conditions as long as we get used to it. Bike is very right we should be mindful. it doesnt pay anyone else to be strong, so we dont need to prove we can deal with things that arent even necessary. i do that often, i am very stubborn and lone wolf style. =P
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<whoman> i can hardly understand clhs and ive done quite a few science thesis papers =p
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<whoman> not that i am smart. but clhs has quite an expectation
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<whoman> oh i only feel smart when i am programming actually.. the rest of life is mostly thumbs down.
<chenbing> every time in this chatroom I became humble
<Bike> it's not about intelligence, it's about communication. specifically, none of us are able to communicate with paule32.
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<chenbing> paste code in pasting website is better style
<jackdaniel> that's not it. we understand him, he just doesn't understand us (nor listens to advices)
<jackdaniel> so trying to help him seems mundane and wasted effort after a few tries
<paule32> don't be so hard
<pjb> paule32: so can you make the link between the error message and the error?
<paule32> i fix it
<paule32> it was an typo
<pjb> paule32: good. What about this error message: (print (gethash "you" *word-table")) #| ERROR: Unexpected end of file on #<string-input-stream :closed #x302003D7ECED> |#
<pjb> paule32: would you say it's clearer?
<paule32> yes, lisp is wise
<pjb> paule32: or what about: *** - READ: input stream #<INPUT CONCATENATED-STREAM> ends within a string ?
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<pjb> paule32: the point here is that different implementations have different error messages, and some may be friendlier and more understandable than others.
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<pjb> paule32: what about: *** - READ: Eingabestream #<INPUT CONCATENATED-STREAM> endet innerhalb eines Strings.
<ecraven> why is most of the code for the MIT CADR uppercased? wouldn't it have been easier to read if converted to lowercase?
<pjb> paule32: Would you say it's the clearest error message of all?
<paule32> why is it so hard? noone can support development with easier messages?
<pjb> ecraven: because printers and punched cards didn't have lowercase.
<pjb> paule32: what about: *** - READ: Eingabestream #<INPUT CONCATENATED-STREAM> endet innerhalb eines Strings.
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<pjb> paule32: Would you say it's the clearest error message of all?
<paule32> it's missing "
<paule32> strings begin, and end with "
<paule32> i know
<pjb> paule32: in lisp, strings can be multiline!
<pjb> paule32: so there's no error, until you reach the end of the file.
<pjb> paule32: if you prefer the later error message, then you should use clisp -Lgerman
<paule32> the problem is, sometimes, i spent my time under terminal consoles text based, and sometimes under gui - where you can get eye cancer
<pjb> paule32: but since this is something I told you to do last year, we don't have any hope.
<paule32> like other, with C++ \
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<whoman> tie yourself in a bag and roll off the docks -- like houdini, life is at stake -- you will find the way if the pressure is high enough. otherwise why get in the bag ?
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<paule32> cewl
<ecraven> pjb: but all the docstrings are properly cased, so it can't be for printing. did the MIT CADR actually use a card reader?
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<warweasle> I'm sure someone else has mentioned it, but hackaday had a lisp article: https://hackaday.com/2017/12/02/lisp-in-200-lines/
<pjb> ecraven: oh right, the MIT CADR was post punch-card…
<ecraven> it might just be tradition, no deeper reason :-/ I find it harder to read than mixed or lower-case
<pjb> ecraven: I would say it depend on the terminals they hard. Not all the early terminals (the first virtual teletypes) had lowercase, since teletypes had only uppercase.
<pjb> ecraven: happily, you can use my downcase-lisp and downcase-lisp-region emacs commands.
<ecraven> well, the actual *interface* (at least judging from running it with the usim simulator) supported lower-case characters alright
<ecraven> pjb: thanks! that'll come in handy ;)
<pjb> ecraven: even the Apple ][ only had uppercase!
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<ecraven> yea, but the user interface of the CADR definitely supported lower case, so I'm just wondering why it's only used in the docstrings, not in the actual source code
<pjb> Even the ][+ didn't have lower case yet!
<ecraven> yea, but that's a consumer device and cost a lot less
<pjb> you had to wait for 1981 to get lowercase!
<pjb> Well, I would say that, plus we used to love uppercase. It gave a very computery style!
<pjb> It's only those millenium youngster babygirls who can't stand uppercase, and who believe they're yelled at, which is not the case at all.
<pjb> M-x caps-mode !
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<ecraven> hehe, I have fond memories of the C64, I don't remember there being a lower-case in the BASIC interpreter there either
<ecraven> and that was way after 1981
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<jdz> ZX Spectrum Basic was also all uppercase.
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<jdz> It also had a structure editor.
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<chenbing> memory is miracle
<varjag> a keyword editor
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<chenbing> thank god
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<whoman> sbcl is always yelling at me
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<borodust> Xach: do you use macos in retina mode?
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<pjb> With their dumb names, imagine the confusion when Apple will release an iRetina computer…
<borodust> Xach: or, oh well, with retina display?
<jackdaniel> I plan to make a company, which will prepend "ur" before product names
<jdz> I use macOS and Linux laptops, bot with >200dpi.
<jackdaniel> so it will be urRetina, urPhone etc ;)
<XachX> borodust: yes
<borodust> XachX: understood, thank you
<borodust> XachX: i'm starting to think that coudl be the source of the issue (so far that's the only difference between machines that has the bug and the ones that doesn't)
<borodust> D:
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<raynold> ahh it's a wonderful day
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<whoman> =) how come ?
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* Xach announces the new Quicklisp, download stats
<eudoxia> Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/ appears to be down for that reason?
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<Xach> eudoxia: it doesn't appear down to me - what symptoms of down-ness do you get?
<eudoxia> just "Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at blog.quicklisp.org."
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<Xach> Maybe it's trying https?
<eudoxia> ping 15s -> no packets
<Xach> it's hosted on blogger, and doesn't use SSL.
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<Bike> works for me.
<eudoxia> how strange
<eudoxia> maybe it's the corporate proxy
<phoe> works for me
<Bike> quicklisp blocked for pornographic content
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<eudoxia> huh, I can connect on my phone
<Xach> Bike: boo
<eudoxia> nevermind folks it's probably just the corporate proxy or isp
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<Xach> Hmm, my host doesn't support SSL for custom domain blogs. Boo.
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* eudoxia needs to migrate his blag off GitHub Pages to set up proper SSL
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<oleo> who uses clinch:*blah* to name stuff baaaa
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<oleo> i turned themall into clinch/*blah* etc
<oleo> and still some of the stuff does not work as expected....
<drmeister> How do people use (defsystem ... :build-operation asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op ...)?
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<drmeister> I'd like to use it like a regular asdf system where if the monolithic bundle doesn't exist - then it's built and if it does exist - then it is loaded - is that possible>
<drmeister> ?
<Xach> drmeister: the folks i know who use monolithic-bundle-op use it as an op at runtime, not in the definition
<Xach> and for them it's to elide asdf entirely from the end product
<drmeister> I see - that is actually a more attractive idea.
<drmeister> How do they work with the product? Do they set :build-pathname to where they want it installed?
<Xach> drmeister: no, the monolithic-bundle-op produces a number of monofasls, and a later script is called that loads all those monofasls and saves an image, iirc.
<Xach> the script is a simple loader, does not involve asdf, hardcodes paths to the monofasl output
<Xach> then the deliverable is a binary thing that is a saved image built from that script, iirc
<drmeister> I think it works a little differently in ECL and Clasp - because they can't save an image. My recollection (a few weeks ago I implemented this) was that it generates a lot of object files and links them into a single library.
<Xach> ah
<drmeister> Ok, so I see that I'm in new territory with a new implementation of an uncommonly used feature.
<jackdaniel> in ecl monolithic-bundle-op produces either executable or a shared object (disguised as fasb which may be loaded) which are constructed indeed from many *.o files
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<drmeister> jackdaniel: Thank you for that confirmation.
<jackdaniel> which are results of calling (compile-file "foo.lisp" :system t) ; (or something very similar) by a higher level interface
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<Shinmera> drmeister: I use monolithic-concatenate-source-op to create a single lisp file of some systems that can just be loaded standalone.
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<Shinmera> But I don't know what exactly you want to do
<drmeister> jackdaniel: Do you use monolithic-bundle-op - if so - how do you direct where the output goes?
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<jackdaniel> drmeister: I use asdf:make-build and :move-here argument
<jackdaniel> it is documented in ECL manual
<drmeister> I want to bundle up a bunch of ASDF systems into a single library and load that when Clasp starts up to minimize startup time.
<jackdaniel> Fare wasn't very fond of this interface
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<drmeister> jackdaniel: I've probably asked this a dozen times - ECL cannot create images - correct?
<drmeister> We are having some trouble optimizing things because of how Clasp starts up and builds itself - I've always thought that ECL had the same issues.
<jackdaniel> it can't *but* it's not impossible. GCL has save-lisp-and-die function and it has common roots as ECL
<jackdaniel> afair it uses same function which was removed from glibc a while ago (which was used also by emacs), but I'm not sure about that
<jackdaniel> regarding faster load, bundling systems into fasb indeed improves things
<jackdaniel> because you simply dlopen them, and that is fast
<jackdaniel> (internally of course, don't force people to use dlopen - (load "foo.fasb") should do)
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<drmeister> What about starting up an ECL system? Clasp evaluates every top level form in order of how they were COMPILE-FILE'd - does ECL do that?
<jackdaniel> in ECL you have libecl.so (which is *the* implementation) and ecl binary, which opens it. additionally in /usr/lib/ecl-xx/ you have fas files, which may be loaded (or required), which are also libraries
<jackdaniel> so there is no compilation at start
<jackdaniel> you just open bunch of shared objects
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<jackdaniel> asdf for instance
<jackdaniel> that is a very fine quality imo, that you can compile arbitrary system into a shared library (which could be used from other languages)
<drmeister> Right - there is no compilation in Clasp except for fastgf has forced it on us until I can figure out how to get around it.
<drmeister> I'll say that a bit more clearly: there is no compilation at startup in Clasp either, except for fastgf.
<drmeister> But for instance. Every DEFUN that is compile-file'd leaves code in the fasl so that at startup the DEFUN code is evaluated to bind the each function to its symbol.
<jackdaniel> ECL doesn't evaluate top-level forms at startup, it has vv internal structure which may be used to populate side effects though
<drmeister> What is "vv internal structure"?
<jackdaniel> I'm not able to describe details, it's complex and I don't understand it very well
<Bike> sounds interesting. where is that in the source?
<drmeister> What does a fasl file do at load time then? Does it somehow bind the final symbol value slots and function slots, classes and other system configuration info?
<jackdaniel> it is scattered in src/cmp/
<Bike> ah, naturally
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<jackdaniel> drmeister: I don't remember. I have debugged this code and fixed some issues, but there are too many details to remember
<jackdaniel> beauty of inherited code ;)
<drmeister> That's ok - thanks.
<drmeister> The beauty of inherited code that works.
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<jackdaniel> any good recipes how to throw away being shy and record McCLIM video at instant? :)
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<drmeister> jackdaniel: Is there a way to get quicklisp in ECL to save the intermediate C files when it builds systems?
<drmeister> pwd
<drmeister> Whoops
<jackdaniel> yes, you have to (ext:install-c-compiler) and set c::*delete-files* (name may be a little different) to nil
<jackdaniel> useful for debugging
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<jackdaniel> each file when compiled has 3 files associated: c, h and data
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<jackdaniel> the last one contains vv data
<jackdaniel> (which may be empty of course, if there is nothing interesting there)
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<drmeister> jackdaniel: Does ECL do much inlining?
<jackdaniel> I didn't count. it does some
<jackdaniel> cmpinline may have some hints
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<phoe> There was a somewhat recent blogpost on SBCL's type inference and such, I remember an example about integers. Does anyone have a link anywhere handy?
<larsen> I'm facing a problems using a couple of packages because package A's nickname clashes with the name of package B. what's the practice in such cases?
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<larsen> s/blems/blem/
<phoe> larsen: bt?
<phoe> or another nickname?
<larsen> mmm, sorry, what does bt mean?
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<phoe> bordeaux-threads
<phoe> one of the most often clashing packages, considering binary-types
<phoe> both have the bt nickname.
<larsen> (in general, I'm puzzled because IMHO defining a nickname should be a choice of the user, not of the author of the package)
<phoe> larsen: which packages are giving you the issue?
<larsen> ah ok, no. it's another couple of packages. cl-flow (nickname flow) and flow
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<phoe> are they both on quicklisp?
<larsen> I don't know, let me check
<phoe> you could nonetheless file an issue on https://github.com/borodust/cl-flow/blob/master/packages.lisp#L5
<phoe> borodust: ^
<larsen> harmony (which is the main system loading flow) is on quicklisp
<larsen> ok. I'll do
<larsen> I reckon there's no general technique to amend this error on my side
<phoe> larsen: the general way is RENAME-PACKAGE to remove the conflict manually, but that's a destructive operation.
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<phoe> like, you're modifying the nickname for your whole Lisp image.
<phoe> you can keep the name and just remove the nicknames this way.
<mfiano> phoe: gl is used by 3 packages if i recall correctly
<larsen> ok. I found rename-package but it was not clear to me *when* I was supposed to call it, because so far I only have a set of dependencies in the .asd file for my system
<larsen> anyway, I'll open that issue. thank you
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<jasom> would this be a valid loop: (loop while (< foo limit) sum (bar) into foo)
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<phoe> why not
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<phoe> hm, wait a second though