<jasom>
didi: indeed because the print happens outside of the dynamic scope of your print-circle binding
<fiddlerwoaroof>
You have to SETF *print-circle* to make it work in the repl
<didi>
TIL. Thank you, jasom.
<didi>
fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
This is one of those things that always confuses me :)
<jasom>
dynamic bindings are useful for some things, but it also quickly becomes obvious why lexical bindings are the default
<jasom>
I find myself doing things like (defun foo (arg1 &key (option1 *option1*)) ...) so that I can be explicit when I need it, but not have to have the same 2 arguments passed to every single function everywhere for the common case.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Is there a generic ASDF way to generate an image?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
s/generate/dump/
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<didi>
Heh, I've never used #'prog1 to stop the REPL from printing something. Before setting *print-length*, I used to add a final t or nil to form.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's a bit annoying that PROG1 squashes multiple-values
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And forces you to use the much longer-namd multiple-value-prog1
<didi>
fiddlerwoaroof: Weird.
<jasom>
fiddlerwoaroof: (uiop:save-image)
<jasom>
fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/jasom/sqlitestore/blob/master/build.lisp <-- here's my current build script, it works on everything that supports images. A small change can let it work on ECL type lisps as well, but I haven't done that yet.
<pfdietz>
m-v-p1 is a heavier weight thing. prog1 is just a simple macro.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Hmm, I think (asdf:operate 'program-op :foo)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
is what I want
<jasom>
fiddlerwoaroof: that will work as long as your asdf file is setup correctly, but it does have the issue of putting it in your asdf cache rather than local.
<didi>
Hum. multiple-value-prog1 doesn't expand here with C-c C-m.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
it's a special operator, according to the standard
<didi>
oic
<didi>
SBCL defines it using `def-ir1-translator'.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think that means it's ok to implement it as a macro, but that would be implementation-dependent
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<jasom>
fiddlerwoaroof: in particular see "The pathname of the output of bundle operations is subject to output-translation as usual, unless the operation is equal to the :build-operation argument to defsystem. This behaviour is not very satisfactory and may change in the future. Maybe you have suggestions on how to better configure it? " in the ASDF docs for it
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, that's a bit annoying
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Although, since the caches work fairly predictably it's not too bad
<fiddlerwoaroof>
something like cp $MY_CACHE_DIR/$PWD . (or the equivalent lisp)
<didi>
I wonder if there is a correlation between symbol names and function use.
<didi>
Length of symbol names, I mean.
<didi>
For instance, few use multiple-value-prog1 because it is too long.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I dunno, I use DESTRUCTURING-BIND occasionally
<fiddlerwoaroof>
... quite a bit that is
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Also, MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND
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<drmeister>
Hey folks - I'm adding some optimizations to Clasp and I wanted to check my thinking.
<drmeister>
Currently Clasp's DEFMETHOD works like ECL - it walks the method lambda to determine if the method uses call-next-method or next-method-p and constructs a method function that does or doesn't have those local functions defined.
<earl-ducaine>
Lispiacs! re: defvar. I'd like to create a global special variable at run time that is ordinarially not present when the program's compiled files loaded. The easiest way is just to create a macro like so: (defmacro define-site-variable (variable value) `(defvar ,variable ,value))
<earl-ducaine>
where define-site-variable is obviously just a bit of implementation hiding of calling (defvar variable value)
<earl-ducaine>
The question: is there any reason why it wouldn't be advisable to use defvar in a non-toplevel form, given clhs' warning about compiling that code having no side-effects. (which would appear to be what I want)
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<drmeister>
I think I need to store the result of that walk in the method by adding two new slots to the method class: method-calls-next-method and method-calls-next-method-p.
<drmeister>
I think I need to do this so that that I can optimize effective methods for slot accessors. If a class has an accessor with more than one method if the first method that would be called doesn't call call-next-method or next-method-p I can optimize it as a direct slot access.
<drmeister>
Another optimization is if the first method of the effective method doesn't call call-next-method/next-method-p then I can call the method function passing the arguments directly rather than passing the arguments as a list.
<drmeister>
Adding slots to the method class is kind of drastic but I think that's what needs to be done.
<drmeister>
Any thoughts?
<drmeister>
Not like I'm waiting or anything - I'm proceeding with adding a leaf-method-p slot that is T if the method doesn't call call-next-method or next-method-p.
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<jmercouris>
is there a way to detect OS in ASDF?
<jmercouris>
like something like feature-if :darwin (load files xyz)?
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<jmercouris>
I think for now I'll just define subsystems that load OS specific files
<loke>
jmercouris: #+linux ?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, I think the normal thing would be to use a #+ reader conditional
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
You could also do something like (member :darwin *features*) if you need to do something programatically, but you should probably make sure something like trivial-features has been loaded to normalize the features list
<jmercouris>
loke: Perhaps, I'll need to think about it
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<jmercouris>
I'm leaning towards subsystems for now
<jmercouris>
I think it would be nice to be able to load the system without any graphical dependencies
<jmercouris>
especially for the purposes of tests
<jmercouris>
loke, fiddlerwoaroof, thank you for the feedback, I may do it that way yet :D
<jmercouris>
goodnight everyone
<Zhivago>
I think it is always nice to delegate decisions like that to the user rather than to try to detect.
<Zhivago>
Even better if you give them a mechanism by which to automate those policies.
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<jasom>
minion: memo for jmercouris the best way to use asdf and features is to use defsystem-depends-on to require any packages that might set features you need (e.g. trivial-features) and then if-feature inside your defsystem
<minion>
buzz off!
<jasom>
minion: memo for jmercouris: the best way to use asdf and features is to use defsystem-depends-on to require any packages that might set features you need (e.g. trivial-features) and then if-feature inside your defsystem
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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<asarch>
When you do: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") and QuickLisp is doing "[package retrospectiff2]..........................", is it compiling?
<asarch>
Or just loading in memory the package and its dependencies?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<NoNameWhatAShame>
Good 5:40 beach :3
<NoNameWhatAShame>
(I guess you could call that a morning)
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<beach>
Yeah, sorry. I overslept.
<beach>
NoNameWhatAShame: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<SaganMan>
Morning!
<loke>
Helo
<SaganMan>
hello loke
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<Fare>
beach: chao anh
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<ym>
Chio-chan
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<dmiles>
is it acceptable to store :allocation :class slots on the class :prototype?
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<beach>
I don't think that can work.
<beach>
What if you have a subclass that shares the slot with its superclass?
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<dmiles>
good point that would "cover up" the supertypes instnace
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<loke>
dmiles: But it could be stored in the class' metaclass, couldn't it?
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<beach>
I store it in the effective slot metaobject in SICL.
<loke>
Oh here you are... Being all logcal and reasonable again. How are the rest of us going to be able to look smart? :-)
<oleo>
(with-input-from-string (s ":FOO :BAR :BAZ :QUUX") (loop for i in s collect i)) ?
<antoszka>
yeah, loop with collect was another thought I had
<antoszka>
doesn't use external libraries
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<pfdietz>
Can also use the second return value of READ-FROM-STRING, which is the position of the first character not read. Also, the :START keyword parameter of READ-FROM-STRING.
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<antoszka>
oleo: but you'd still need to split-sequence S
<phoe>
oleo: "for i in s"? does LOOP work with streams like that?
<antoszka>
nope :)
<antoszka>
At least it doesn't for me :)
<phoe>
because I don't think so, S is expected to be a list in this case AFAIK
<oleo>
no it does not
<oleo>
meh
<antoszka>
phoe: UGLY solution, wrap your string in () and just read-from-string :)
<pfdietz>
You would need to read from S, with eof-error-p false, and a distinct eof-value you'd check for to terminate the loop.
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<phoe>
antoszka: read a little bit higher
<phoe>
13:44 < phoe> Like, I want something better than to define my own function that does (READ-FROM-STRING (CONCATENATE 'STRING "(" STRING ")")).
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<phoe>
(:
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<Zhivago>
(with-input-from-string (s ":foo :bar") (loop for x = (read s nil) until (null x) collect x)) ; like this, surely?
<phoe>
this is a symbol, you can (eq '&rest somethnig)
<beach>
Not only can, but should.
<phoe>
yup
<dmiles>
sorry keys.. not keywords. &key test with user supplied :test
<phoe>
dmiles: I still don't get iet
<phoe>
test should be a function designator
<phoe>
so something funcallable
<phoe>
so either a function object, or a symbol that is a function name
<phoe>
still can't see anything STRING=able
<beach>
dmiles: Those should also be compared as symbols.
<dmiles>
matching "(member 1 '(1 2 3) :test #'=)" to (defun member (item list &key test test-not key) .. )
<beach>
dmiles: Those should also be compared as symbols, not just the names.
<dmiles>
(eql cl::test :test) ==> nil
<beach>
*sigh*
<phoe>
dmiles: wait a second, are you matching what to what?
<phoe>
"(member ...)" is a string
<phoe>
(defun member ...) is a macro call
<Zhivago>
dmiles: Is there a reason that you want to ignore the package in this comparison?
<beach>
dmiles: (eq keyword:test :test) => T
<dmiles>
i am catching errors like: (member 1 '(1 2 3) 'test #'=)
<phoe>
dmiles: why are you trying to catch these errors instead of letting Lisp catch them?
<beach>
dmiles: You should compare the SYMBOLS using EQ.
<beach>
phoe: He is implementing a Common Lisp system.
<phoe>
beach: ooh, I see.
<dmiles>
i do alwasy compare symbols with eq once compiled
<beach>
Once compiled? Not before?
<dmiles>
(even before compiled #'eq is fine)
<beach>
So why do you need string comparison?
<phoe>
Then you will want to match only *the* symbol :TEST and not any other symbol like FOO:TEST.
<dmiles>
whnen i am returning the error message i would like to let the user know that they should have used a keyword
<phoe>
So, from what I understand, you want to catch three cases.
<phoe>
1) when the user uses :TEST - everything is okay, the function call is made.
<phoe>
2) when the user uses 'TEST which is not a keyword but is STRING= to a valid keyword - you want to inform the user that there is a keyword available that perhaps should have been used.
<phoe>
3) when the user uses a thing like 'KJAFKJHF that is not EQ or STRING= to anything - you just want to err out.
<phoe>
Do I understand this correctly?
<dmiles>
phone: exactly :)
<phoe>
In this case, STRING=. (:
<dmiles>
*nod* yeah i agree
<pjb>
(defun foo (&key test ((test #:bad-test) nil bad-test-p)) (when bad-test-p (error "You should have used :test not 'test")))
<pjb>
But the question is why you want to test those cases? a bad keyword is a bad keyword, the lisp system already reports them.
<dmiles>
i understand it is wrong heads to ever compare symbols by name.. that anyone doing that is obviously doing something wrong
<pjb>
dmiles: the implicit point here being that 'test might be exactly what the keyword should be, if the user programmed it so!
<phoe>
dmiles: not really.
<pjb>
dmiles: there's only one place where you need to compare symbols by name, it's with LOOP keywords.
<phoe>
LOOP compiles symbols by name, internally.
<phoe>
so when you write (loop for ...), the FOR can come from any package.
<phoe>
s/compiles/compares/
<dmiles>
pjb: yes indeed that is what is happening in 44mb of work code.. we dont have to actually use keyword names in cyc.. we have to use the right key from the right package is all
<loke>
Plenty of times have I forgot to add the colon in front of an INITARG argument. Annoying :-)
<dmiles>
parsing initargs i have to pass once over wwith #'eq then again over with (equal (symbol-name their-keyword)(symbol-name read-symbol-not-in-keyword))
<minion>
jmercouris, memo from jasom: the best way to use asdf and features is to use defsystem-depends-on to require any packages that might set features you need (e.g. trivial-features) and then if-feature inside your defsystem
<jmercouris>
it doesn't appear anywhere in slime-load-system, it only shows the parent system
<phoe>
jmercouris: do you use Quicklisp or plain ASDF?
<jmercouris>
phoe: quicklisp
<phoe>
jmercouris: (ql:register-local-projects) first
<phoe>
and then try quickloading
<jmercouris>
phoe: I've never had to do that though, I've set up my config file to look
<jmercouris>
e.g. I have setup ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/user-lisp.conf
<jmercouris>
to point to the directory that contains my lisp source code
<phoe>
jmercouris: my knowledge might not be enough in this case. I'm no good with more complex ASDF setups.
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<jmercouris>
you know what is really interesting, I typed in the string, and it worked
<jmercouris>
but it did not come up in my auto suggest :|
<jmercouris>
Now that I loaded one of the systems from the file, it now comes up in IVY
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<jmercouris>
probably some sort of emacs cache issue
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<Xach_>
What does not come up in auto suggest?
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<jmercouris>
Xach_: Systems declared in the same asd file
<Xach_>
oh. slime-load-system is something that works only in a limited set of circumstances.
<jmercouris>
yeah, it does completely work actually
<jmercouris>
I can slime-load-system and type the full string
<jmercouris>
but it does not suggest it to me
<Xach_>
I mean for completion.
<jmercouris>
ah, okay :D
<jmercouris>
then yes
<Xach_>
There is no way to know in advance the lst of strings that will return a good result for find-system.
<jmercouris>
What do you mean? can you expand on that please?
<Xach_>
jmercouris: when you do (asdf:find-system "foo") -- a precursor to loading a system -- asdf consults a number of functions to convert the string "foo" into a path to a system file (or a system object)
<Xach_>
This mapping is very handy and is one of the reasons why quicklsp caan do what it does.
<Xach_>
But it does mean that, when doing auto-complete, there's no easy way to say "give me a list of all systems that start with 's'" for completion purposes.
<Xach_>
But there is one built-in, standard function that is not so hard to use like that, because it maps from strings to files in the registry config.
<Xach_>
So you could consult the file system to say "which *.asd files in the registry start with 'f'?"
<Xach_>
but it can't tell you anything about the subsystems defined in one of those *.asd files.
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<jmercouris>
I see but you could traverse those returned files and pass them to the other function that finds systems right?
<jmercouris>
Ah, find-system only returns if the system exists
<jmercouris>
it doesn't list the systems in a given file
<jmercouris>
I misunderstood that function
<jmercouris>
Okay yes, I see now why that is impossible to solve :D
<Xach_>
jmercouris: if you load the system file, you could have more information to use for completion. but loading system files is a pretty heavyweight operation. it could load dozens of supporting systems.
<Xach_>
a new system should make it easier to explore the mapping without doing an unpredictable amount of work.
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<jmercouris>
Xach_: You could just write a simple parser that looks for defsystem + some string in each of those asd files
<jmercouris>
and use that as your source of completion
<jmercouris>
it's not necessary to know anything about the system or it's location as asdf:find-system can do that for you later, right?
<Xach_>
ha ha ha
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<jmercouris>
Why is that so funny?
<Xach_>
I think "just" and "simple" are inappropriate there.
<jmercouris>
I mean it doesn't sound like the most complex string parser in the world
<jmercouris>
it's just look for defsystem, then next token is the system name
<phoe>
the trouble is, these files can contain arbitrary code.
<phoe>
and sometimes they do.
<jmercouris>
I'm of course extremely ignorant about what this requires, but I thought that defsystem was ALWAYS followed by the system name
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<phoe>
whoman: as long as you have a default reader, sure
<phoe>
a person might have shadowed their #\( and #\) symbol macros
<whoman>
ehe
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<whoman>
hmm eye of the beholder. as is life, readers are subjectively processed =) who knows what a person will feel when i wear a shirt consisting of the color Red
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<phoe>
I will feel #ff0000
<jmercouris>
phoe: there will probably be a few other colors in there as well
<pfdietz>
I liked Scalzi's book _Redshirts_, but as a general rule I like metafiction.
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<Xach_>
pfdietz: ok
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<jmercouris>
So now that Fare is leaving the community, who will further the development of ASDF?
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<trafaret1>
hi there
<jmercouris>
hello
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<trafaret1>
jmercouris: can I ask you common questoin about programming in lisp?
<jmercouris>
trafaret1: Of course, I may not be able to answer it, though someone else will, in IRC the etiquette is generally to just ask your question
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<trafaret1>
jmercouris: I not a programmer but I want to be, is it good choise to starte learning programing from lisp or it's bad idea?
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<beach>
It's an excellent idea.
<beach>
It is a much simpler language than (say) C++, Java, or C.
<jmercouris>
trafaret1: That is a difficult question, it depends, do you wish to make money as a programmer? What are your constraints in life, etc?
<jmercouris>
trafaret1: You'll have to tell us your motivations for learning programming before we can give a conclusive answer
<jmercouris>
trafaret1: What beach says is true about the simplicity of the language, the question is, can you afford to learn lisp and then another language for employment
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<beach>
jmercouris: I think every programmer should know Common Lisp, whether they actually need it in their job or not.
<trafaret1>
I have recently installed emacs and to be honest I fall in love with it, some ppl in interat says that lisp hard to learn but easy to write same things than in for example c/c++, java
<uuplusu>
I suggest starting from Python
<trafaret1>
I want to deal with web/game/math_calculus
<beach>
trafaret1: Every language is hard to learn well.
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<jmercouris>
beach: It is a luxury not all can afford
<jmercouris>
trafaret1: It sounds like you've already made up your mind, might as well learn lisp :)
<beach>
jmercouris: It is definitely not a luxury. It is a necessity in order to be a good programmer. Well, not necessarily Common Lisp, but some Lisp dialect.
<beach>
jmercouris: Granted, the industry if full of incompetent programmers, but that's not some advice I would like to give, i.e. to remain incompetent.
<jmercouris>
beach: If you were in some poor country and had to provide for your family asap, you'd learn whatever language pays money, and common lisp rarely pays money
<jmercouris>
I'm not promoting incompetency myself :D, but I do believe it is a luxry to become competent, imagine just struggling to survive and provide for you and your family, you will do the minimum you can do to get by, because you have so many other problems going on in your life that you have to manage
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<Xach_>
eschulte: looks like GRAPH is broken at the moment
<jasom>
jmercouris: also, the only supported subsytem syntax in foo.asd would be something like foo/bar (i.e. the prefix is the name of the .asd file, followed by a slash)
<jmercouris>
jasom: That's the syntax I am using
<jmercouris>
jasom: I saw that fare reccomends that
<jasom>
jmercouris: but yeah, slime won't autocomplete subsystems (finishing up reading backlog now)
<jmercouris>
jasom: ah okay :)
<jmercouris>
jasom: Thanks for your memo anyway
<jasom>
IMO it should fix that though
<jmercouris>
jasom: I agree
<jasom>
foo/<TAB> should load the foo.asd for completion
<jasom>
but foo<TAB> maybe not
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<eschulte>
Xach_: ah, thanks! I made a breaking change to curry-compose-reader-macros and hadn't updated graph... should be fixed now
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<Xach_>
thanks!
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<jasom>
Xach_: how does one submit a system for QL?
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<Xach_>
jasom: what delight awaits future quicklisp dists?
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<stylewarning>
jmercouris: I’m pretty sure that if you can afford to be somewhat competent enough to become an industry programmer, you can fit Lisp in with it.
<stylewarning>
I am baffled when there’s this implication that folks are able to really only learn a single language or they must somehow make a presumably lifelong choice and dedication to some single language
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<rme>
I seem to be semi-dedicated to CL.
<stylewarning>
rme: but I’ll suppose on the outset that you didn’t think “well, I’ve got one language to learn in my life, which should it be?”
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<stylewarning>
Or “I can only afford to learn one thing, I guess I’ll choose CL”
<beach>
stylewarning: Well said.
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<beach>
stylewarning: Will you submit a paper to ELS2018?
<stylewarning>
Yes!
<beach>
Excellent!
<stylewarning>
Likewise with a few of my coworkers
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<dmiles>
jmercouris: knowing and doing Prolog and/or Lisp work has always paid way more than C#,Java,Scala and ASP comvined
<beach>
stylewarning: I'll be happy to review drafts of it, if you think that would be advantageous.
<dmiles>
jmercouris: mostly due to being able to work in markets that are starved of programmers
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<beach>
I will do what I usually do, namely submit links to drafts here, so that anyone who wants can review the paper(s).
<stylewarning>
beach: I’d love that. I’m hoping I can publish about some of this quantum simulation business. We will probably be writing our drafts in a few weeks
<beach>
Sounds good.
<dmiles>
oh sorry to rme :P
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<dmiles>
(or whomever is affraid to take the time)
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<shka>
good evening
<beach>
Hello shka.
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<rme>
I've mostly been successful in earning a living with CL, though there are rough spots from time to time.
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<jmercouris>
stylewarning: The point is that you'll learn one language in your life, I myself have learned dozens of languages for different purposes at different times
<jmercouris>
the point is, that someone learning to program, as an absolute beginner should only learn one language
<jmercouris>
they don't have infinity time at their disposal, and they will have to make money with that language, so they better be good at it
<stylewarning>
Reasonable
<stylewarning>
Hopefully they’ll eventually learn Lisp ;)
<jmercouris>
stylewarning: s/is that you'll/is that you won't
<jmercouris>
I am just trying to imagine that guys life situation
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<jmercouris>
maybe I am making too many assumptions about it
<jmercouris>
stylewarning: Absolutely agreed, learning lisp has changed how I think about programming
<jmercouris>
I wouldn't say I have "learned" lisp, but I've learned some, and already so many of my old opinions have changed
<jmercouris>
dmiles: These types of jobs can be very highly paid, IFF they can be found, and that you must admit is more difficult than finding a job in Ruby or Python or some .NET technology
<jmercouris>
dmiles: rme even provides evidence for my claim, an excellent developer claiming there are rough spots
<rme>
I'm just a dumb hacker.
<jmercouris>
whatever you'd like to call yourself, I think your work is great
<jmercouris>
I'm a huge fan of CCL
<jmercouris>
I know you didn't create it solo or anything, but yeah
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<rme>
I'm nowhere near as good as Gary Byers, but thanks.
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<jmercouris>
You shouldn't compare yourself to the best when judging yourself
<jmercouris>
or what you think is the best
<jmercouris>
because by that same logic, whenever you are happy, you should be less happy, because no doubt someone is happier
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<dmiles>
jmercouris: oh definatley, there is probably aobut 1 or 2 lisp/prolog job openings per month that I see :P verses 100s per week of everyhitng else.
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<KZiemian>
hello world!
<minion>
KZiemian, memo from beach: One item for CLUS. In the description of the functions for setting macro character or dispatch macro character, the only place to figure out the signature of the function seems to be in the example. It wouldn't hurt to state that signature explicitly.
<shrdlu68>
KZiemian: Hello!
<stylewarning>
We are hiring Lisp programmers!
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<jmercouris>
stylewarning: remote?
<stylewarning>
No remote.
<jmercouris>
:'(
* jmercouris
weeps softly
<shrdlu68>
stylewarning: Where?
<KZiemian>
stylewarning: for what kind of job?
<stylewarning>
Coolifornia
* jmercouris
laughs maniacally
<dmiles>
Palo Alto?
<stylewarning>
Berkeley
<shka>
great
<shka>
just one ocean away!
<stylewarning>
KZiemian: quantum computing but knowledge of that isn’t necessary. See this video sometime https://youtu.be/f9vRcSAneiw the email to email is at the end (:
* fiddlerwoaroof
wishes there were more remote lisp jobs and/or jobs in Ventur County, ca
* dmiles
would only look for a job that is allowing opensource and letting me work on what i work on
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The company I work for is hiring senior engineers and we have opportunities to use clojure
<stylewarning>
dmiles that basically goes entirely against what jobs exist for, for the most part
<stylewarning>
(Fortunately we do open source. But it’s not a free for all.)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But, I haven't yet convinced them to allow CL yet: they would be willing if someone could present a compelling business case
<dmiles>
stylewarning: oh the incentive is that I'd get two or three people to do the things i dont like doing
<fiddlerwoaroof>
stylewarning: it sort of depends on the relationship of your company to the technology
<fiddlerwoaroof>
In places where network effects matter, e.g. advertising and social media, it's fairly risk-free to opensource your technology
<shrdlu68>
Eh, I can't be hired anyway-no formal education in CS.
<rme>
dmiles: haha, I just had a one-year gig doing the opposite of that . :-)
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
shrdlu68: that's not an obstacle for good jobs
<dmiles>
rme: opposite? (you had to do the work of three people?)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Most places you want to work will take demonstrated talent over formal CS education
<stylewarning>
shrdlu68: it’s not an issue
<AeroNotix>
A remote CL/Clojure job would be ideal
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<rme>
No, I was joking. I had to work on stuff I didn't want to and it was closed source.
<mlius>
opposite? (you had to do the work of three people?)
<mlius>
21:03 < fiddlerwoaroof> Most places you want to work will take demonstrated talent over formal CS education
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I work with a brilliant person who only has a highschool education
<mlius>
21:03 < stylewarning> shrdlu68: it’s not an issue
<stylewarning>
dmiles it sounds like you should work as a grad student :)
<KZiemian>
stylewarning: quantum computing, nice
<shrdlu68>
Glad to know. I'll take a stab at getting a job.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
shrdlu68: if you are interested in living in the LA area, PM me your contact info and I can send your resume to our internal recruiter
<shrdlu68>
fiddlerwoaroof: Hehe, I appreciate that, but I'm not in the U.S
<KZiemian>
stylewarning: thank you for wideo
<rme>
I'm living in the Seattle area at the moment, but if anyone wants me in a French-speaking country, let me know.
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<KZiemian>
how is the best way to learn ASDF (or easiest beetwen best)
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<KZiemian>
if I need to read documentation
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<AeroNotix>
"learn" in what way?
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<AeroNotix>
What do you want to do with it?
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<KZiemian>
I think I try to work some times without it
<sjl>
I printed and read the manual. It's something like 90 pages total.
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<KZiemian>
slj: you mean for ASDF?
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<sjl>
KZiemian: Yes
<KZiemian>
slj: thanks
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: for CLUS project we need to makes add-on to CCLDoc
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: my job is to figure out how CCLDoc works
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<AeroNotix>
Oh right
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: and CCLDoc use ASDF
<AeroNotix>
Just seemed a bit weird want to "learn" ASDF without a goal or issue in hnd
<AeroNotix>
hand
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: issuie is to add-on to CCLDoc
<AeroNotix>
OK. Fair enough
<AeroNotix>
I just thought you literally wanted to "learn" ASDF in isolation to anything.
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: and I wondering can I do it without knowledge of ASDF or not?
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<AeroNotix>
Probably. In all honesty ASDF has always lurked in the background of any lisp hacking I've ever done. I've rarely had to use its APIs directly and instead used Quicklisp which works on top of it.
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<AeroNotix>
Unsure how CCLDoc is built/organized, can go take a quick look
<AeroNotix>
I don't get exactly what you're talking about here but from the sounds of it you've decided to use CCLDoc in another project and therefore also wanted to document CCLDoc in the process?
<AeroNotix>
Lots of Poles getting into CL recently. I should go to a meetup if I have time
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: my english is a bit crap I know
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<AeroNotix>
It's fine.
<AeroNotix>
arguably better than my polish :)
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: definitly :)
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: okey
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: I don't know all detailes because I was working on diffs between CLUS and CLHS when they are debating
<AeroNotix>
I'm reading about CLUS now. This is a new kind of be-all/end-all documentation project?
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: but when I come back to project at the second half of November
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: they decided to write CLUS not in DokuWiki but in CCLDoc
<AeroNotix>
Who are "they"?
<AeroNotix>
Is there a page that explains what CLUS is and why it should exist?
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<AeroNotix>
aside from "This is Common Lisp UltraSpec, a community project to create a contemporary and unified documentation file for the whole modern Common Lisp universe."
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: phoe, TeMPOraL, bugrum, mfiano and all other folks on Discord clus-general
<AeroNotix>
KZiemian: a good starting point perhaps could be to add some nicer CSS/formatting to the clhs?
<AeroNotix>
gah discord.
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: they are "they"
<KZiemian>
gah discord? What you mean?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Is there a #lisp discord bridge?
<mfiano>
Discord is horrible, but it happens to have a large Lisp community
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: yes of course
<AeroNotix>
it's so damn slow and resource hungry to run it in the browser and "natively", though
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm not really a fan of closed protocol chat systems
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: if you want know what CLUS is about you must ask phoe, mfiano or some other big folk. Or read this https://blog.teknik.io/phoe/p/375
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: I just quit my embrioning state as CL user and most things about documentation are beyond me
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: project menager of CLUS is my bud from kraklisp, which is lisp community now in coma of people living in Cracow, Poland
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: and he start looking for help about weeks or so when I uderstand that I never left lisp embrionig state if I not find good project to work
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: 2 + 2 = 4 so I ask him that can I join and get deeper knowledge about CL working on CLUS
<oleo>
frigging thing
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: so I get in and being in strange position of one of top contributors and at the same worst lispers of all members
<AeroNotix>
KZiemian: I understand
<oleo>
i have edited a definition of a library function from within my init file,but when i load it it does not take effect even tho it shows it as being redefined
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<mfiano>
What is an init file in this context?
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: that good because situation is strange
<AeroNotix>
KZiemian: I wouldn't worry about it
<AeroNotix>
just contribute as you can and see where it goes. Not everything has to be perfect.
<oleo>
something which gets loaded via --load
<AeroNotix>
oleo: yeah but what? Who is calling that? What is the --load file? Can you share code?
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: yes, Lisp is strange, as my life achivments. This is way I start my journey with this language
<AeroNotix>
oleo: both functions are the same in the init file
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<oleo>
i only see an effect when i edit the source file in place but not when i try to override it from my init file
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: about CSS I ask CLUS community that question
<oleo>
AeroNotix, yes i thought maybe i can already put the definition into the image
<oleo>
but to be sure i also defined it in my init file
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<oleo>
but it does not work neither way, the only solution seems to be to edit the source file, then i see an effect otherwise not
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<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: they said: Contetn is the king, don't worry about it for now
<oleo>
and i wonder why
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<AeroNotix>
oleo: interesting, unsure why that happens.
<AeroNotix>
or why it doesn't happen, rather.
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: and because I the lowest in CL ranks among them I said: ok, I go to CCLDoc
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<AeroNotix>
KZiemian: ok
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<mfiano>
KZiemian: In case you are wondering, you are actually the only one doing work on CLUS. phoe took time off some months ago because life is getting in the way, and I was never part of the project really, just offered suggestions to get it rolling, but it stopped rolling again months ago.
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<AeroNotix>
Hence why I mentioned to stop worrying and just contribute where you can. Stop caring about "CL ranks" whatever that means. :)
<AeroNotix>
enjoy yourself :)
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<KZiemian>
mfiano: I know that untile phoe comeback keeping CLUS alife is my job
<AeroNotix>
as in literally being paid to do it?
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<KZiemian>
mfiano: the only things that is pain in the back for me is that, when I talk about it
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<KZiemian>
mfiano: one ask question: So what is a state, where you are going, why you do it that way? And only answer I can get is: ask phoe or some other folk
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<KZiemian>
mfiano: I always feel bad in all are of my life, when I can't answer directly such basic question
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<AeroNotix>
KZiemian: PM.
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<AeroNotix>
as in read your pms :)
<mfiano>
There are no answers because there is no support of the project from anyone other than yourself. This may be a sign
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: job = it is my duty, but my check is not in dollars but in Lisp knowldge and good words from community
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: PM?
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<pjb>
KZiemian: there are only two ranks: lurkers, and heroes.
<pjb>
KZiemian: either you don't do anything and you're a lurker, or you do something and you're a hero.
<pjb>
KZiemian: PM = Private Messages.
<KZiemian>
mfiano: not quite true, there is a reson for using CCLDoc and not cearing about CSS, but I don't know either
<AeroNotix>
think a large amount of chilling needs to happen :)
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<rme>
KZiemian: Try starting out with something simple: write some documentation in ccldoc format.
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<rme>
Use output-html to format and view it, and iterate from there.
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: I still don't get what you mean by privite message
<AeroNotix>
Nevermind I just meant I sent you a private message on IRC
<pjb>
KZiemian: type: /msg pjb Here is a private message
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: should I tell more thing on private waves?
<KZiemian>
how send privite masseg on IRC?
<pjb>
KZiemian: type: /msg pjb Here is a private message
<AeroNotix>
KZiemian: Which IRC client are you using?
<KZiemian>
pjb: you answer befor I ask :)
<pjb>
The thing is that receiving a private message should open a new window to dialog with the correspondant, and depending on the IRC client, this can be more or less conspicuous.
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: GoogleChrome, I don't have enough energy to learn something more sophisticated
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<AeroNotix>
Sure. Like I said, never mind. It's not hugely important
<pjb>
KZiemian: I'd advice one of the emacs IRC clients, such as erc or beirc.
<KZiemian>
Now I try to end 1000 open projects in my life
<pjb>
KZiemian: do everything in emacs, you'll be happier (even if you don't realize it).
<KZiemian>
so don't want to start learning to much new things
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The only thing I don't do in emacs is writing Java/Scala
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And then have whatever processes the documentation depend on both ccldoc and your new system
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: like I say, you must ask phoe
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Of course, if ccldoc isn't designed to be extensible, this might not be feasible
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: if you want know the answer
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: we meet in real world on 18 December
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: he told me his plan
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: and we make two threads
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: he work on his idea of extending CCLDoc
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<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: I seet on CCLDoc and try to understand and documented it
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Ah, I thought you wanted to make an extension
<jasom>
Xach_: clinenoise (my port of linenoise from C to lisp). I just had a bug filed against it so apparently someone other than I has already found it useful
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: phoe is a brain of CLUS, I am the fingers that write code
<jasom>
Xach_: I'm doing things like docstrings and actually exporting symbols right now before I file the PR
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: I apologized, if you want reason you must ask the true brain
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: main point is that, when we both end we marge our threads and make add-ons to CCLDoc
<Xach_>
What is linenoise?
<KZiemian>
fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know much more about it
<pjb>
noise on the line.
<KZiemian>
phoe: are you here
<AeroNotix>
You've tagged him a few times, I doubt he is
<KZiemian>
phoe: we need some of your thougths
<KZiemian>
AeroNotix: I catch him on Discord 30 minuts ago
<KZiemian>
I'm sorry, from CLUS project I understand my thread and some of main idea what happens in other areas
<jasom>
Xach_: It occupies the same space roughly as linedit in the lisp world.
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<KZiemian>
so If you want to know big picture, I just not person to ask
<jasom>
It sits somewhere between cl:read-line and the GNU readline library in terms of features and complexity
<jasom>
I wrote it to use as the input for my toy shell, as I was dissatisfied with the existing options in various ways
<KZiemian>
okey, thank you for help
<KZiemian>
I try to read all Issue of CLUS on GitHub today
<KZiemian>
and make them comeback from river of Oblivion
<KZiemian>
see you
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<rpg>
In SLIME is there anything I can do to resync buffer position, so that warnings, etc. show up in the right place? I find that they drift from their proper position over time.
<rpg>
over time as I interactively compile expressions, that is.
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<jmercouris>
not that I know of, but you can always clear the screen
<jmercouris>
slime-repl-clear-output
<rpg>
jmercouris: It's not the REPL screen position, it's where SLIME "thinks" the defuns are in a lisp file, versus where they actually are.
<rpg>
If I do slime-compile-defun (I think that's the name) a few times, SLIME loses track of where to place the underlines for the warnings.
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<Xach_>
rpg: I hate to offer a guess, but it's the best I can do right now - maybe try recompiling the whole file? C-c C-k usually.
<rpg>
Xach_: That's probably right, but if I do that, I think I end up with a fasl pooped out into the source directory, instead of the cache :-/
<rpg>
I should probably just rerun the ASDF build when I need it. But the conclusion might be that -- despite the fact that it probably was a pretty challenging hack -- putting the warnings on the code, instead of in the minibuffer is a waste of time, at least when you're compiling interactively.
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<rpg>
It looks cool, but it's not functional
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* rpg
is dashing out to the coffee house -- cleaning staff with vacuums have arrived!
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<_death>
you can also load a file with C-c C-l
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<jasom>
_death beat me to saying it
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<_death>
also you could hack a C-c C-k -like command that write to the cached fasls dir
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<pfdietz>
jasom: while catching up on iRC archives, I noticed you asked about lisp compiler fuzzing.
<pfdietz>
I sent a flurry of bug reports (mostly fixed now) to sbcl recently that were generated by various kinds of that.
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<jasom>
pfdietz: nice!
<jasom>
pfdietz: One of the great wins when I last fuzzed a compiler was how many bugs in a short time could be uncovered, which allowed for finding patterns with just short-term data. e.g. one class of optimizations was found to be a large source of bugs, so those were removed or rewritten in a different style. Perhaps 10 years of organic bug reports could have been aggregated to find such a pattern, but having 30
<jasom>
or so bugs in a few months made it obvious just by "wait, didn't I just fix a bug like this"
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<pfdietz>
I think it's important to keep fuzzing, because development introduces new bugs, but also exposes old bugs. Still finding bugs that go back to CMUCL.
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<makomo>
anyone know if there's a way to make cl-json use hashtables instead of alists?
<makomo>
for representing objects
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<jasom>
makomo: 1 sec, I think I have done that
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<jasom>
com.gigamonkeys.json is the only one on the list with a JSON->lisp->JSON that can survive a round-trip by default.
<makomo>
hm yeah, i only thought about the false/null case, but object/arrays could ofc be empty
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<jasom>
the number of times that I've needed to distinguish betwenn "false" and "null" in javascript code is approximately zero, so that one is the most forgivable.
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<jasom>
hmm, I was bad and didn't use safe-json-intern for making the keyword there though...
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<stylewarning>
I started writing a JSON representation using algebraic data types
<stylewarning>
But never followed through
<_death>
jasom: this is why I always use com.gigamonkeys.json
<stylewarning>
An idea I’ve had is to have a JSON parser compiler
<stylewarning>
So you could product efficient parsers into whatever data structure you prefer
<makomo>
is there an idiomatic way to convert between a generalized boolean and a boolean?
<_death>
(defun bool (x) (if x t nil))
<makomo>
yeah, that's what i thought. thought there might be some neat way using and/or or something, but they both return either nil or the last value/the first non-nil value
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<_death>
"neat" is not how I would describe it, but you can always (and x t)
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<makomo>
ah yeah, not sure why that didn't cross my mind lol
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<aeth>
If you're going to be unclear and use (and x t), you could still use if's implicit nil else and just say (if x t)
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<aeth>
All three should have identical disassemblies with a sufficiently smart compiler. Works in SBCL.
<oleo>
(when x t) ?
<oleo>
if you want to prevent the nil branch
<makomo>
i agree it's not very clear so i probably won't use it. i was wondering whether a clever trick like that is idiomatic or not.
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<aeth>
s/still use if's implicit nil else/still use if, with if's implicit nil else,/
<_death>
can take a C idiom and use (not (not x))
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<jasom>
(not (null x))
<aeth>
Still identical disassembly in SBCL. In fact, all four functions (I called them foo, bar, foobar, and barfoo) have 100% identical disassemblies in SBCL.
<_death>
(not (eq x nil))
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<aeth>
Wow, not one of these has outsmarted SBCL so far.
<aeth>
Some of them might mess with other compilers, though.
<makomo>
nice
<aeth>
for the lazy: (if x t nil) (and x t) (if x t) (when x t) (not (not x)) (not (null x)) (not (eq x nil))
<aeth>
with the first being idiomatic
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<_death>
(let ((m (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash nil m) nil) (defun bool (x) (values (gethash x m t))))
<aeth>
That's going to fool SBCL because you're using a mutable data structure and it's not that sophisticated... I think. Let's see
<Fare>
rme: not CL, but OCaml, but Tezos FRANCE is recruiting.
<Fare>
sjl: ASDF needs a new maintainer... but I don't know anyone paying for ASDF maintenance at the moment.
<mfiano>
Fare: He's not here
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<_death>
aeth: (defun bool (x) (case x ((nil) nil) (t t))) seems to give slightly worse results
<aeth>
_death: I get identical results. Which CL are you using?
<_death>
"1.4.2.279-50cfd41e0"
<aeth>
I'm on SBCL 1.3.18 atm
<aeth>
did SBCL regress?
<_death>
aeth: it's one more instruction
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<aeth>
_death: I get identical results, as in 100% identical except "disassembly for BOOL" instead of "disassembly for FOO" and a different origin