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<dmiles>
thx.. sharing it with someone in ##prolog
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<peterppp>
so I just installed sbcl and usocket on ubuntu and am trying to load usocket with the line (require :usocket)
<aeth>
Why not use Quicklisp?
<peterppp>
sbcl says it doesn't know how to find usocket though
<peterppp>
I don't know? it was recommended?
<peterppp>
it's all the same to me I guess
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<peterppp>
I got the impression that sbcl is the most widely used implementation
<aeth>
ASDF knows where to find usocket, if it's installed in a place where it looks for ASDF system definition files. And Quicklisp uses ASDF to go beyond that, downloading dependencies for you.
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<aeth>
Generally the only reason not to use Quicklisp for handling your dependencies is if you're packaging something.
<peterppp>
ah! thanks
<peterppp>
I guess it's working now
<aeth>
Usually, the way to handle dependencies is to create a your-project.asd file (just look how existing projects set up their ASDF files) at the top level of the directory, and put a link to that directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ so you can treat your project as if it's included in Quicklisp and just (ql:quickload :your-project)
<loke>
jack_rabbit: second half of the video is the first in reverse?
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<Xach_>
jack_rabbit: nice. reminds me of that xscreensaver smearing hack
<jack_rabbit>
loke, Not quite. The process in the second half is similar to the reverse of the first.
<jack_rabbit>
Xach_, ha! thanks.
<loke>
Xach_: thanks for merging my zs3 fixes. I'm starting to have some concerns that I might have introduced a small bug, and I need your opinion on this:
<loke>
Xach_: Specifically, it's the fix to REGION-ENDPOINT. It now returns *S3-ENDPOINT* if it's set. The question is if this will be a problem if *S3-ENDPOINT* is set to a bucket-domain (such as foo.s3.amazonaws.com)
<loke>
I'm using Wasabi (alternative S3 provider, and all works fine there)
<Xach_>
loke: hmmmmmmmm
<Xach_>
loke: is there any way for you to test it?
<loke>
Xach_: Yes, but I'm not sure I know how to test all permutations. The ones I've tested works fine.
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<Xach_>
you tried it with a bucket-domain?
<loke>
I guess my problem is that I'm not sure about the exact purpose of *S3-ENDPOINT*. When would you need to set it to a name of the form bucketname.s3.amazonaws.com?
<loke>
If you don't do that, obviously everything will work perfectly.
<loke>
(i set it to s3.wasabisys.com for example)
<Xach_>
Hmm, I don't see that it is documented anywhere, so I don't know if anyone is using it except you.
<Xach_>
I'm up for proceeding with the change and adapting quickly if it causes someone harm.
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* Xach_
will release-wrangle a number of his projects this month
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<loke>
Xach_: I'm the only user of zs3? That sounds strange.
<Xach_>
loke: of *s3-endpoint*
<Xach_>
it isn't in the docs
<loke>
Ah, I see.
<loke>
Ok then :-)
<Xach_>
it seems like it should be!
<loke>
It's a very convenient way to use alternative S3 providers though. Google also uses the same API
<loke>
And Wasabi is significantly cheaper than Amazon
<loke>
(also, Amazon sucks, and I don't want to give them my money)
<Xach_>
ok
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<loke>
Xach_: when you implemented *S3-ENDPOINT*, what was the original reason for it?
<loke>
Did you have alternative providers in mind?
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<Xach_>
loke: i think different regions. let me double-check docs.
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<Xach_>
hmm, i don't remember, sorry, and haven't time to dig at the moment.
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<loke>
Xach_: I'll let you know if I find something myself.
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<drmeister>
loke: I use s3 services on AWS
<drmeister>
Xach_: I see your library 'zs3'.
<drmeister>
You use ironclad - do you use many of ironclad's features or just the hashing?
<Xach_>
drmeister: hashing and hmac
<drmeister>
Yeah
<drmeister>
I wish there were a lighter weight library for just those.
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<Xach_>
yes. the structure of ironclad makes it difficult to go a la carte
<Xach_>
i wrote my own sha stuff for quicklisp's pgp verification. have not done hmac. tempted to spin it into its own library.
<Xach_>
it's slower but sufficient for me
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<drmeister>
Clasp struggles mightily to compile ironclad because of terrible scaling in llvm and slowness in the Clasp runtime and Cleavir (working on it).
<drmeister>
I got so desperate I added C++ header libraries for hashing and hmac and exposed those functions.
<Xach_>
drmeister: not a bad approach in a pinch. better than having a terribly slow runtime for those too.
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<loke>
drmeister: What is it about clasp that makes is particularly slow for Ironclad? I mean, Irconclad is always slow to compile, since, as I understand it, it generates a lot of code through macros.
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<drmeister>
I haven't drilled into it carefully to figure it out and so I have to be careful where I attribute blame. It takes something like 7 hours to compile full ironclad.
<beach>
loke: My personal guess is that the Cleavir-based compiler does not yet implement most of the planned optimizations, so the entire native code base is just not good enough.
<drmeister>
Some of the time is in llvm - we know that it has terrible scaling for large functions.
<beach>
loke: The theory that the Cleavir-based compiler has some bottlenecks because it is using a lot of generic functions might be somewhat true, but I think it would be counterproductive to look for such bottlenecks before the optimizations are implemented.
<beach>
loke: But yeah, there is also the LLVM possibility. Many compiler optimization techniques require quadratic time in the size of the code, so if code is generated using macros, then that could very well be a big problem.
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<loke>
I thought that ironclad generated massive functions, but I have to admit that I have never actually confirmed the sizes myself. So some of it could be just assumptions.
<drmeister>
It does.
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<loke>
drmeister&beach: How fast is ironclad running in Clasp after this 7 hour compile? Is the generated code any good?
<drmeister>
Yeah - that's fine. I haven't benchmarked it - but I haven't noticed any problems.
<beach>
loke: Like I said, the code generator of the Cleavir-based compiler is not good enought.
<beach>
loke: So that affects both the execution time of code that is compiled with it, and, of course, the time to execute the compiler itself, because that code is itself compiled with the compiler.
<drmeister>
I dunno beach - this looks like some n^m power scaling with the size of the function.
<drmeister>
It requires more analysis when I can get to it.
<beach>
drmeister: That's fine. But, we still don't have enough optimizations. :)
<drmeister>
Granted.
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<drmeister>
I've been using it a lot interactively - the performance is good enough for what I've been doing.
<drmeister>
Somewhere between Python and sbcl speed.
<drmeister>
(big range)
<loke>
The SBCL compiler is called Python, isn't it? :-)
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<drmeister>
An unfortunate coincidence.
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<drmeister>
Is it typical for compilers to decide NOT to inline code if the resulting function becomes too large?
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
Usually, inlining is done against some kind of "budget", and size is one consideration. In fact, the cost function typically reflects the cost of further optimizations, so it might take the size squared.
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<Zhivago>
Not to mention the anticipated cache pressure.
<Zhivago>
One reason that using a bytecode interpreter can sometimes improve performance.
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<Fare>
tacoexwhorvaaqsogomo
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<Fare>
nokjhwecbjkhgosdfiyvhb
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<internet_cafe>
Fare: you too
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<jasom>
drmeister: one amazing optimization if you have whole-program information is to inline all functions that are called exactly once. It makes the code smaller and run faster.
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<jasom>
drmeister: llvm normalizes code to SSA form. This can have a quadratic effect on code size.
<jasom>
code size for the intermediate representation that is; it gets reduced to something sane after optimizations, but the optimizations themselves run on the quadratically larger IR stream.
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<ym>
Are cl-json experts around?
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<ym>
I got "Invalid SB-MOP:SLOT-DEFINITION initialization: the initialization argument :NAME was constant: :OK." condition.
<ym>
Should I dig it or this is some sort of known not-a-bug-but-a-feature?
<beach>
It sounds like a very bad idea to have slot names that are keyword symbols, though.
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<beach>
Slot names are implementation details that should be private to the module in question. By making them keyword symbols, they are automatically exported to the entire world, so that you have no protection against (setf (slot-value obj :OK) ...)
<beach>
The :name argument is a slot name. An error is signaled if this argument is not a symbol which can be used as a variable name.
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<beach>
So, I think SBCL is right.
<Shinmera>
Well not necessarily right, since it errors in an obscure way
<Shinmera>
but it is not wrong.
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<Fare>
Bug in ASDF causes spurious rebuilds in presence of misnamed secondary systems :-(
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<osune_>
Does somebody know who owns cvberry.com ?
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<lieven>
a Mr Currell Berry from Atlanta according to whois.
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<osune_>
lieven: thanks, I meant more in a username way which I can message :)
<lieven>
you can send him an email :)
<osune_>
haw. totally forgot about that
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<dim>
how do you typically add (local) projects to ASDF/QL? I'm used to playing with asdf configuration files, but I'm now wondering if there's an easier way to do it?
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<pjb>
dim: nowadays, the easiest way is to put them (or a symlink) in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
<dim>
(ql:where-is-system "pgloader") -- the QL version is still prefered
<dim>
I mean it loads #P"/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/pgloader-v3.4.1/" rather than ~/quicklisp/local-projects/pgloader
<dim>
ok going to edit ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ etc
<pjb>
dim: strange, this is not what I observe here.
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<dim>
ok with a file-based setup it just works
<dim>
pjb: I'm used to asdf needing some convincing
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<phoe>
beach: ping!
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<phoe>
Are you around per chance?
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<phoe>
I have a question regarding protocols, testing, and CLOS. I'll just post it here.
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<phoe>
Let's suppose that I have a protocol, which includes a protocol class. Each class participating in the protocol must subclass this protocol class.
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<phoe>
I have created such a participating class, and I decided to write some tests for it. And, at this point, I had a doubt. Since I will be testing the class's participation in the protocol, this means that my tests will be limited to the operations listed in the protocol, and therefore will not really be specific to this concrete class. They will be testing the protocol itself.
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<phoe>
And this means that these tests should be valid for any class that participates in the protocol. At which point, I wondered - can I just grab all (in)direct subclasses of this protocol class, and run tests on these concrete classes?
<Xach_>
dim: hello
<Xach_>
dim: do you have the quicklisp directory as a tree in your asdf registry config?
<phoe>
I can use CLOS and MOP to grab all (in)direct subclasses of a protocol class, and I can run these protocol tests on each of these classes. My question is - does this approach look sane? Or do I have some error in my thinking somewhere I can't see yet?
<beach>
phoe: Yes, I'm here.
<dim>
Xach_: hi, no I don't think so, not explicitely at least
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<beach>
phoe: The test will be specific, because there will be methods on the operations in the protocol that are specialized to the concrete subclasses.
<Xach_>
dim: because there is normally no way that a quicklisp directory system would take precedence over a local-projects system
<Xach_>
there are some ways to tweak it so it happens but it is not normal
<beach>
phoe: Obviously, if your subclasses participate in other protocols as well, you need to write separate tests for the operations in those other protocols.
<dim>
mmm, it's on a brand new laptop, too
<dim>
I didn't make any setup yet, apart from installing quicklisp and slime
<Xach_>
dim: ok. if it can be recreated i would be very happy to help troubleshoot
<phoe>
beach: I'm still digesting the "there will be methods on the operations in the protocol that are specialized to the concrete subclasses" part.
<dim>
I think it's easy to reproduce. git clone https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader ~/dev/pgloader (or somewhere else), then ln -s ~/dev/pgloader ~/quicklisp/local-projects, then (ql:where-is-system "pgloader")
<phoe>
I have a protocol class FOO, with a method BAR invoked like (BAR FOO). I know that method BAR will always return a string; the contents of that string may vary from concrete class to concrete class, but the protocol says that it will always be a string.
<dim>
(maybe the ln has to be tweaked to work, I did it differently and just wrote the steps from memory, trying to adjust them to another env, etc)
<beach>
phoe: So if you have a concrete subclass of FOO, like BAZ, clearly, you will have a method on BAR that specialized on BAZ, or else you wouldn't need the concrete sublass.
<phoe>
Yes, this is correct.
<phoe>
And therefore my test will apply to the method BAZ.
<beach>
phoe: And this method will be run, i.e. tested, when you execute BAR with a BAZ as its argument.
<phoe>
s/method/subclass/
<phoe>
Yes, this is correct.
<beach>
And that's all that is required when it comes to the participation of BAZ in your protocol, so you are done.
<phoe>
If I have another subclass, QUUX, then (BAR QUUX) should also be tested with this test that I wrote. This is my thinking right now.
<phoe>
Like, if QUUX is a subclass of FOO, then it means that (BAR QUUX) should return a string, therefore the test I wrote before works also for QUUX.
<beach>
Sure, you need to run the tests for all possible subclasses, but that's not something to put in the protocol. The protocol can't possibly "know" how to create instances of those classes.
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<phoe>
Yes, this is already about tests and less about protocols.
<beach>
That's the responsibility of the client code that creates BAZ and QUUX.
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<phoe>
I see.
<phoe>
So client code can prepare the instances of those classes in any way it wants, and then it can invoke tests that are bundled as a part of the protocol, and pass those instances to the tests as a parameter. Is this correct?
<beach>
That would certainly be possible, yes. The protocol library can then contain tests that make sure that those classes respect some of the invariants that it defines.
<beach>
Invariants, preconditions, etc.
<phoe>
Yes, that is what I'm thinking.
<phoe>
The concrete classes can contain their own tests for whatever specific functionality the concrete classes provide.
<phoe>
s/contain/provide/
<beach>
Right.
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<phoe>
Hmm. I see.
<phoe>
Thanks!
<beach>
Sure.
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<Xach_>
dim: for me, as soon as the symlink exists, it is found by quicklisp first.
* Xach_
can discuss later
<dim>
ccl and sbcl alike? (that might be the difference here, otherwise if you're interested I will nuke my asdf setup and reproduce)
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<Xach_>
dim: hmm, only tried sbcl. but last i checked they had the same behavior.
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<jmarciano>
hello
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<oleo>
evening
<jmarciano>
for some reason I cannot connect to #emacs, so maybe here somebody knows how to (read from file in Emacs?
<jmarciano>
I am doing (with-temp-file *my-activity-file* (insert (prin1-to-string data))) while data is hash
<jmarciano>
how can I simply read that data from file?
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<jmarciano>
I am needing something like (setf hash-data (read-from-file *my-activity-file*))
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<Xach_>
jmarciano: is that common lisp?
<Xach_>
in cl there is no standard read syntax for a hash table.
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<Bike>
emacs, they said
<Bike>
i didn't know it had prin1-to-string though
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<Xach_>
or *special-variables*
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<PuercoPope>
You can setup delay: /set irc.look.smart_filter_delay 5
<PuercoPope>
ups sorry about that
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<pfdietz>
If you just want to serialize and deserialize lisp objects to/from a file or stream, but not in readable format, then something like cl-store would be what you want. https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/
<pfdietz>
"readable" as in "human readable, or readtable readable"
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<jmercouris>
Anyone know how to make CCL restarts not crash a compiled application?
<jmercouris>
E.g. maybe show a window to the user with available restarts
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<jackdaniel>
read ccl documentation for the function, which allows you creating binary
<jackdaniel>
save-application afair
<jackdaniel>
it has various options on what to do, when things break
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: Ok, will do, thanks
<jmercouris>
Interesting, apparently the default behavior is to open a listener
<jmercouris>
but that only works when you launch the application via Terminal
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<makomo>
hi everyone, i'm using SLIME and have an ASDF system that has been loaded (created with quickproject). if i add to DEFPACKAGE a list of nicknames, what's the right thing to do for this change to take effect?
<makomo>
am i supposed to just re-eval the DEFPACKAGE form (not sure if that's legal)? or should i somehow reload the ASDF system?
<rpg>
makomo: You can do either. re-eval should be sufficient.
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<makomo>
rpg: from what i can see in CLHS "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition."
<makomo>
so does everyone just rely on implementations being sane i guess?
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<jackdaniel>
makomo: since you are in development phase, you may see what implementation does and decide, if this is good enough for you
<jackdaniel>
you won't change package definition in "final" application at runtime
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<rpg>
makomo: I've only ever done this with SBCL and ACL, which both seem to Do The Right Thing. Note that some changes like *removing* an export might not be reflected properly. But adding a nickname should not be a "demanding" change for the implementation.
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<makomo>
jackdaniel: ah, fair point
<makomo>
rpg: yeah, i'm using SBCL. i would expect so too.
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<rpg>
Personally, I tend to do a lot of incremental compilation, and avoid full ASDF rebuilds for long periods of time. Old habits from developing systems that have complicated internal state that I don't like to destroy and rebuild
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<Fare>
rpg: any time to review syntax-control ?
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<rpg>
Fare: I'll try to get to it today.
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<Fare>
thanks
<Fare>
the bug I reported this week (based on a a sly issue) is pretty damning and must be fixed in next release
<Fare>
I'll try to do an interactive session where I reproduce the bug, add a test case, and hopefully fix the bug before I send an MR.
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<phoe>
I like how roswell installs its quicklisp in a hidden directory.
<phoe>
So i no longer have a ~/quicklisp directory lying around after a default installation.
<phoe>
makomo: you can do either in this case. BUT
<phoe>
removing an export causes warnings on SBCL, "package FOO also exports the following symbols: BAR, BAZ, QUUX, ...", and the compilation fails.
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<phoe>
ASDF treats these as errors.
<phoe>
So you need to manually UNEXPORT things.
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<PuercoPope>
phoe in sl{y,ime} you can do C-c x with a negative argument to unexport it automatically (and remove it from the defpackage
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<whoman>
cool , did not know that =)
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<phoe>
PuercoPope: woah
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<|3b|>
is there some way to see if a symbol names a cffi enum or bitfield type?
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<|3b|>
(aside from just trying to use it as one and checking for errors)
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<Shinmera>
|3b|: Digging in the source gives me (typep (cffi::ensure-parsed-base-type 'foo) 'cffi::foreign-enum)
<Shinmera>
Obviously unexported, so
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<Shinmera>
Checking whether a symbol names a certain kind of CFFI type seems like something that would generally be desirable though, so raising an issue/discussion to add that functionality would be worth it
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