<hooman>
aeth, MIT is good? i am terrible with paperwork/beurocracy stuff. i generally pick defaults on starting new projects with the project-starting utils
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<aeth>
hooman: The most permissive licenses are MIT, BSD, and Apache. MIT and BSD are largely interchangable and almost equivalent (except the BSD versions with the advertising clause), but the main argument for the MIT license is generally that there's just one version and "BSD" has to be qualified between 4 or so.
<aeth>
(There are very similar licenses to the MIT license, but they have entirely different names, unlike with the BSD variants.)
<aeth>
Apache has a patents clause and is much longer, but it is not GPLv2 compatible. Google prefers this license (including in Android, which makes it widespread).
<aeth>
There's also the Artistic License, which is almost entirely Perl (but very common in Perl, making it fairly common overall)
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<aeth>
After that there are copyleft licenses, usually GNU licenses. These are simpler if you restirct yourself to GNU because they just add additional restrictions each time. LGPL is basically for libraries, allowing copyleft on the library but not forcing it on users of the libraries. GPL is for applications or for libraries where you only want GPL users.
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<aeth>
AGPL closes the network loophole in the GPL, e.g. if you make a GPL application, someone using its API over a network can only use it with GPLv3 or AGPLv3 software (there's a special mutual exception between the two).
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<aeth>
Further complicating things, the CL community has the LLGPL, which is the LGPL v 2.1 with an additional preamble of "clarifications" that change the meaning of the license somewhat.
<aeth>
There are other licenses, but those ar epretty mcuh the only ones you'll see
<aeth>
"Good" depends on what you want. If you're making libraries, the MIT is maximally compatible so people tend to prefer that. If you're making a desktop application, you might want the GPL instead if you're concerned about someone forking it comercially. And a web application, you may want the AGPL.
<aeth>
Some libraries/applications are released under GPL with copyright assignment to one entity. The FSF does this so they can defend it in court (e.g. that's why Xemacs was created, they didn't want to assign copyright like GNU Emacs requires). Most of the other entities do copyright assignment so they can charge if a proprietary application wants to use their GPLed library.
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<aeth>
The problem is that you can't exclude commercial software without also excluding some free and open source software due to license incompatibility. So the choice of a license for a library is often about whether you care more about excluding proprietary users for a library (e.g. GPL or AGPL) or including as many users as possible, even possibly proprietary (e.g. MIT)
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<aeth>
My personal opinion to keep licenses simple (i.e. not having to explain everything in more than 10 lines) is: MIT for everything unless you're writing an end-user application (GPL or MIT) or a web application (AGPL or MIT) depending on if you're concerned about commercial forks (GPL/AGPL) or not (MIT). Of course people will disagree with me.
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<aeth>
The thing is, though, if someone made a commercial fork, they just proved a market exists, and now you can undercut them with more domain expertise. So I think the fear of forks is overrated in most cases (but not all cases!)
<aeth>
Would you rather buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux that actually makes the distro or the fork Oracle Linux? (And that example is mostly GPL! So the competitor fork can *still* happen with the GPL!)
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<aeth>
Also note that anything trivial under the AGPL will just be rewritten by someone else. Copyleft only works if what you're doing is hard to replicate in the first place.
<aeth>
dwts: Imo, always go with the consensus license in a community that does what you want, which in the CL world is overwhelmingly the MIT license for permissive libraries.
<aeth>
If everything's the same license, there's basically no headaches and you don't have to put any thought into licenses.
<ult>
Licenses like the GPL/AGPL tend to inherit implementation specifics
<dwts>
aeth: I don't disagree with you. ISC is a simplified version of MIT, if I understand what I read correctly
<dwts>
but I see your point
<aeth>
dwts: Well, that ties into my earlier argument for the MIT over the BSD. Variants of the MIT license tend to have different names
<dwts>
unfortunately, I feel like I need to study law school to understand everything in GPL
<aeth>
You can't just say :license "BSD" in ASDF and be understood
<dwts>
sure
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<aeth>
Just a quick check of asdf:system-license on my dependencies show (among others) 4 "BSD-2-Clause" and 3 ambiguous "BSD" and 9 "MIT" and 1 "MIT Style License". Your dependencies will vary.
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<dwts>
aeth: personally I prefer the suckless approach, adding a separate license file, and then adding a note to the top of the file like here: https://git.suckless.org/surf/tree/surf.c
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<borei>
how does function has an access to entire table
<borei>
??
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<Xach>
borei: it accesses each entry in turn
<borei>
well, that i understand - there is iterrator inside maphash (i assume), but how does function has an access to table
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<Xach>
borei: what function?
<Xach>
borei: the maphash function, or the function that is passed to maphash?
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<borei>
not to particular key, value pair (that are args for the function), but access to table
<borei>
function that is passed to maphash
<borei>
see docs i posted
<Bike>
um, because that's what maphash does? and the implementation has to support it?
<Bike>
you couldn't implement maphash if you only had access to gethash.
<_death>
it is a closure, can reference variables in its lexical scope
<Xach>
borei: the function has no direct way to access it. but they are often written as closures with access to the table variable in scope.
<borei>
trying to build analogy with C - there is no way to do it ?
<Bike>
i'm pretty lost :(
<_death>
in C it would take a userdata void pointer
<borei>
ok ok
<borei>
there is hash table - (key, value)
<borei>
i have function - fun(key, value) - which processes key,value - that is clear
<borei>
now i call maphash #'fun <hashtable>
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<borei>
and i can get an access to <hashtable> from fun
<Xach>
there is no way for the fun to access the table directly without additional context.
<Xach>
context in the form of a closed-over environment.
<Xach>
there are many ways to achieve this.
<borei>
seems like lambda is key word ?
<Xach>
(or you could have the table bound to global variable and use that by convention)
<Xach>
borei: that is pretty key
<Xach>
borei: for example, you could write something like this: (defun add-table-to-fun (fun table) (lambda (key value) (funcall fun key value table)))
<aeth>
internet_cafe: Arc was a Perl-Lisp hybrid developed during a time of decreasing Perl popularity and released in 2008, when Perl popularity was 1/4 to 1/3 what it was at its measured peak in 2004 (and Perl probably peaked before Google Trends started measuring)
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<aeth>
If Arc had been released closer to its announcement 2001, things might have gone differently. Programming language design had moved on. (And it has moved on one more time since then to focus on type systems.)
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<p_l>
it doesn't help that Arc's design was kinda antithetical to what most people want for practical programming
<loke>
I think the type-system focus hasn't actually produced anything concrete and useful, other than thousands of academic papers.
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<aeth>
pg is pretty good at promoting things, but that only gets people in the door. People tried Arc and said "What does this add over CL or Racket?"
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<xantoz>
arc never got UTF-8 support, too, didn't it? for those of us living outside the 7-bit character space, that is pretty much a showstopper
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<aeth>
Oh, right, that was the *primary* showstopper iirc.
<aeth>
Here's this language designed for websites, released in 2008, and it didn't have UTF-8 support, which can be hard to add later (see: Python)
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<aeth>
And its built in web framework worked in (and still works in, if HN is any indication) HTML tables, so it was outdated on release there, too
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<shka>
good morning!
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<shka>
aeth: python is used only because it has appeal for the noobish part of community
<shka>
something that lisp in any form didn't have in my lifetime
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<aeth>
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant: see Python as an example for how hard it is to add Unicode to a language that wasn't built for it.
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<Zhivago>
Hmm, python does reasonably well due to not having characters.
<Zhivago>
Python's main problem isn't supporting unicode -- it's because it decided to try to support everything else.
<Zhivago>
Javascript get it right largely because it doesn't try to support shift-jis or euc-kr.
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<xantoz>
even python2 does fairly ok with unicode these days, though. I guess it's mostly library support
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<xantoz>
[shift-jis, euc-kr] sadly, sometimes you still need to support these encodings. But converting it to unicode on sight might be the sane alternative
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<Zhivago>
I think it is a language issue in that you have strings for which the encoding is unknown, and separately strings of unicode code points.
<Zhivago>
s/unknown/implicit/
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<myrkraverk>
Is there a simple method to trim unicode whitespace from beginning and end of strings?
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<myrkraverk>
As in, something that satisfies the test function sb-unicode:whitespace-p ?
<jackdaniel>
trivia claims to be compatible and faster *but* it's not fully compatible, it requires some stuff to be available at compile time
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<schweers>
I have a (hopefully) quick question: I have a (struct) type named GRAPH-EDGE. I also have a loop (using the iterate package) over an array of such objects. I want to declare the variable to be of the appropriate type. (declare (type graph-node var-name)) does not work, as iter initializes variables with NIL. When I specify (declare (type (or null graph-node) var-name)), I get the following error message: Cannot supply
<schweers>
value for type (OR (MEMBER NIL) GRAPH-EDGE); using NIL. Any ideas?
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<schweers>
Apparently I asked this question a little too early. It seems that iterate does not know how to initialize the variable. Using let instead of (for var = ...) solves my problem. And unmasks other problems my code has :D
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<hajovonta>
that's perfectly cool. I always have this kind of problem. But the important thing is, there is always a possibility with Lisp.
<jackdaniel>
possibility to have problems with Lisp? So much true ;-)
<loke>
schweers: When declaring variables in LOOP, you have to use OF-TYPE.Like so:
<loke>
schweers: (for x of-type FOO across some-list do ...)
<schweers>
loke: I’m not using LOOP, but ITER from the iterate package
<schweers>
but cool, I didn’t know that :)
<loke>
schweers: I definitely prefer LOOP, since it's standard.
<schweers>
it is, but I really dislike LOOP. I find it both hard to read and write. But maybe that’s just me
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<jackdaniel>
I have chills when I remember some of LOOP constructs I saw
<tfb>
I think the underlying problem is that CL doesn't have an object like null in Java. I'm not sure it makes *sense* to have such an object in terms of the type graph though
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<schweers>
tfb: nil?
<beach>
jackdaniel: Weakling! :)
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<tfb>
no, NULL would need to be a subtype of every type, and it's not
<kami>
I am looking for implementation-specific ways of setting a file's modification time in these CLs: abcl, ccl, clasp, clisp, cmucl, scl, lispworks, ecl, and mkcl.
<kami>
I call utime on Allegro and SBCL, where the POSIX interface is part of the impl.
<kami>
Does any of the mentioned implementations have a POSIX package?
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<jackdaniel>
kami: if you open a ticket on ECL tracker to implement it, then it'll probably appear in the next release, but it won't work on older releases anyways
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<jackdaniel>
if you limit yourself to posix platforms, you could call /usr/bin/stat
<jackdaniel>
most implementations can call externall processes
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<kami>
jackdaniel: thanks for the idea. That would introduce quite a bit of overhead, if for each lisp files which is unpacked from a quicklisp tarball, an external process would have to be called.
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<Xach>
That is not going to happen.
<Xach>
No external processes for quicklisp work.
<Xach>
Must also do the right thing on windows.
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<p_l>
on CLISP, there's POSIX:SET-FILE-STAT, for CMUCL you might have to play with cl:apropos and search for unix-utime
<p_l>
kami: ↑
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<kami>
Xach: that's what I expected.
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<kami>
p_l: thank you!
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<kami>
Xach: I was just reading up on MKCL. It seems to have CFFI in its contribs. Would it be acceptable to use CFFI to call utime on Unices?
<Xach>
No.
<p_l>
CCL doesn't appear to include utime directly, might have to use FFI
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<p_l>
yep
<kami>
Xach: if (C)FFI is not an acceptable solution, then I guess you can close the PR
<Xach>
FFI is fine, CFFI is not.
<Xach>
No FFI is better than FFI, but in a pinch
<p_l>
same with ECL, which requires FFI in thsi case
<jackdaniel>
p_l: waht do you mean?
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<kami>
One of my biggest problems will be to test with all those impls. How well does roswell work?
<jackdaniel>
CFFI doesn't implement magically FFI on its own. Each supported implementation has FFI in it.
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<p_l>
jackdaniel: there's no documented interface to POSIX system library, so you need to use ECL's FFI to write the interface for utime()
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<p_l>
kami: with ABCL, just use the Java classes for it, I think there's API in NIO
<p_l>
ah, even in java.io.File, there's support
<kami>
p_l: thank you.
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<p_l>
clasp & mkcl are same as ECL in this, AFAIK. SCL should work with same code as CMUCL (it's derived from it)
<p_l>
LW generally has quite generous OS support so there should be a proper interface somewhere\
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<kami>
p_l: do you have experience with any of the impls on Windows?
* kami
wonders which of them runs on Windows at all
<p_l>
CLISP claims it should work
<p_l>
LW has set-file-dates function which should work on both
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<schweers>
kami: I know its a bit crude, but … how about you “modify” the file? for instance, read the first byte, write it back again.
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<schweers>
hm, wouldn’t work on empty files ... damn
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<Shinmera>
schweers: He wants to go back in time
<schweers>
oh. yeah. sorry.
<schweers>
I should have thought about that
<Shinmera>
Specifically he wants the mtimes saved in Quicklisp's archives to be preserved when they are unpacked.
<schweers>
I find it somewhat weird that the CL standard doesn’t provide such a facility.
<lieven>
back when the standard was finalized, a fair number of filesystems didn't have that capability
<Shinmera>
Consider a version controlled file system. It doesn't make sense for a file to travel back in time from one revision to the next.
<Shinmera>
Or consider file systems that have ctimes. They might prevent changing the mtime if you try to set it before the ctime.
<schweers>
true, but the again, CL has support for several devices and such, which are not used under unix, and it still works
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<Shinmera>
It's a rare enough use-case and a big enough headache to implement that I don't fault them for leaving it out.
<lieven>
for some values of working. the mapping between pathnames and namestrings isn't the same for all CLs targetting unix even.
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<schweers>
lieven: true
<schweers>
I’m quite glad I asked, I hadn’t thought about some of these issues
<lieven>
try defining that feature for some really weird stuff like MVS datasets, AS400 and so forth
<Shinmera>
Also unix does have devices and it could make sense to encode that in the pathname.
<schweers>
Shinmera: I know it does, but they are normally not part of the path, at least not outside of the common lisp world
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<lieven>
POSIX even has this weird thing that filepaths starting with 2 slashes invoke implementation defined behaviour whereas 3 or more starting slashes are the same as a single slash
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<schweers>
seriously? What’s supposed to happen with two slashes?
<lieven>
the implementation can decide to do something special
<lieven>
old SysVs used it for remote file shares in the Windows style
<pjb>
results depend on the implementation, they don't use all the same names for unicode characters…
<myrkraverk>
in my sbcl, lschar is an undefined function.
<Bike>
that's why he put the library it's from
<myrkraverk>
Ah.
<myrkraverk>
Well, I'm busy with another task right now.
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<pjb>
Anyways, the point is that you don't have to find the characters yourself, you can just write code to have your lisp do it for you.
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<myrkraverk>
Ah, nice.
<pjb>
IIRC, babel gives access to some unicode properties. I don't know if it's complete. If not, it would be a nice project to extend babel to provide all the unicode information possible, and make it easily queryable.
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<nyef>
Hello all.
<nyef>
I'm getting "Error: Unbound variable: +RR-CONFIG-STATUS+" trying to (ql:quickload :clx) on CCL 1.11-r16635 linuxx8664 (though it also happens with linuxx8632). Is this an expected thing, or am I doing something wrong (or both)? Or should I just ask in #ccl?
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<Josh_2>
Does it work on linux yet?
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<jmercouris>
Josh_2: Well, it used to, but not anymore
<jmercouris>
I'm working on the Linux version
<jmercouris>
I just "perfected" whatever that means lol, the OSX GUI fori t
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<jmercouris>
most of the coding I have been doing involves no foreign code, I just need to get that point with the GTK version
<jmercouris>
I'm also waiting on a user that raised an issue about this on github, maybe they and I can work together
<Josh_2>
But how will a user raise an issue about it not working on linux if they use linux and it doesn't work on linux :O
<Josh_2>
there will be no linux user to complain lel
<jmercouris>
Not sure I understand what you are getting at, but know that I am working on it :D
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<larsen>
I like the idea of History as a tree
<jmercouris>
larsen: Thank you!
<larsen>
it's not clear to me if the user gets any kind of visual cue to decide where he could go
<jmercouris>
larsen: yeah they do
<jmercouris>
basically you type in M-f instead of C-f and the browser will ask if there is ambiguity
<larsen>
(for example, I liked how MacSoup displays a message thread)
<jmercouris>
and the minibuffer will show you what possibilities there are
<jmercouris>
and you can RET whichever candidate you want
<turkja>
jmercouris: i'd love to use something like this on linux, there's definitely some sort of demand for this, now that mozilla is about to drop XUL (= conkeror)
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<jmercouris>
turkja: I hear you, I definitely would like to do a linux version, any support in this is always welcome!
<jmercouris>
of course I used to do linux via QT, but I will redo it with GTK because of better lisp bindings
<jmercouris>
and it'll be usable with SBCL, CCL, etc on Linux this way as well
<jmercouris>
any GTK CL binding reccomendations?
<turkja>
heck, i could even consider switching over apple just to get Lisp web browser :D
<turkja>
OS is just a bootstrap for emacs+stumpwm anyways, right?
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<ecraven>
turkja: emacs + exwm!
<ecraven>
I've switched a few days ago, and I regret not doing it years ago ;)
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<rumbler31>
jmercouris: so you think gtk has better lisp bindings but are asking about lisp gtk bindings?
<rumbler31>
according to github, cl-gtk2 while perhaps rather complete, hasn't been touched in quite a while
<jmercouris>
rumbler31: I guess that's okay though, I'd be perfectly fine with just Linux, BSD, OSX
<jmercouris>
larsen: That's awesome fu-berlin is right by my house lol
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<jmercouris>
larsen: Ah so you mean like a tree view of the history, yeah that would be pretty cool
<turkja>
ecrawen: nooo, just managed finally migrate all my systems to stumpwm! :)
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<jmercouris>
I have to implement a message echo area in addition to the minibuffer... maybe later :D
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<larsen>
jmercouris: ah, you're from Berlin. good to know. I could have some questions soon (I'm on the verge of relocating with my wife)
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<jmercouris>
larsen: nice!
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<SaganMan>
Good Morning Peeps
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* beach
still doesn't know whether he wants to be a member of that set.
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<jmercouris>
beach: Which set? what are you talking about?
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<yurinew>
hi, how similar is lisp to scheme? and would it be reasonable for me to ask a scheme question in here?
<ecraven>
yurinew: you might ask in #scheme ;)
<yurinew>
okay, i will do so, i just opted for here first since there are many more users in here
<jmercouris>
yurinew: You can ask, someone might still be able to help as long as it isn't strongly scheme specific
<yurinew>
okay thank you
<yurinew>
this is probably considered a very basic question, but how can i store a function within an object that another function returns, such that i can call the function within the object?
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<rpg>
yurinew: This is actually sort of hard to answer, because the notion of "object" isn't really that standard across scheme implementations. You should probably ask this in #scheme and tell them what implementation you are using.
<yurinew>
okay, thank you rpg
<rpg>
good luck!
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<beach>
jmercouris: The set of "Peeps" referred to by SaganMan.
<beach>
jmercouris: In general, we discourage questions about languages other than Common Lisp.
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<jmercouris>
beach: I know, I just empathize with the feeling of not knowing where to ask- and since #lisp is full of talented engineers, it wouldn't hurt to ocassionally ask for their wisdom
<jmercouris>
Especially when scheme is so close to cl, it could have been a question we could answer
<beach>
It is not very close in my book.
<shka>
good evening everyone
<beach>
And, the fact that there are a lot of talented people here is not an excuse to ask off-topic questions.
<shka>
beach: thanks again for your very valuable input
<beach>
shka: Sure. I wanted to tell you that spelling and grammar errors are distracting, and I can't read a text for its contents until those are fixed.
<shka>
this is all too familiar
<shka>
at this point i am not sure anymore why i even try to make docs
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<rumbler31>
what?
<SaganMan>
you can ask them in ##lisp
<SaganMan>
#lisp is strictly common lisp, isn't it?
<beach>
Yes.
<SaganMan>
It's nice otherwise we would often go off rails
<beach>
And we still do sometimes.
<SaganMan>
haha, happens
<beach>
For example, BW^ spent days trying to get help on algorithms for detecting cycles in graphs, just because there are a lot of knowledgeable people here.
<beach>
It got very distracting in the end.
<SaganMan>
oh
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<resttime>
Almost done with a simple script which spits out files for a program written in C that tests hardware. Dunno what to do when asked to upload what I have to repo for other devs, I am the only who uses lisp lol :<
<resttime>
I think I have spent more time trying to document it than actually writing it as of now
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<resttime>
Like explicitly explaining what functions like MAPCAR does lol
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<resttime>
I wonder if I should just rewrite the whole thing in C since it probably shouldn't be too "difficult" and can double as an exercise of some sort.
<resttime>
Anyone have any XP with people who don't know lisp encountering it in the wild where they are at?
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<rpg>
resttime: Aside from the syntax, I wouldn't think Lisp would be too daunting these days. I mean all the new languages seem to be putting mappers in.... So what's so scary about the lisp you have written?
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<resttime>
I dunno, because to me it seems nice and small but it could be gobbledy-gook to someone else for all I know.
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<rpg>
resttime: Probably best to sit down with one of your co-workers and see what they say when they eyeball it....
<resttime>
rpg: Good idea, I'll hold off on uploading before I show it to people first.
<resttime>
I am slightly worried that I might be seen as a crazy lisper
<resttime>
Errr, at least not more than already if already >_>
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<resttime>
I want to aim for wizard status instead lol
<osune`>
resttime: maybe add links to pcl to your doc
<Josh_2>
Takes a few years
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<resttime>
osune`: Will do, which reminds me I should add in about installing quicklisp and probably SBCL for implementation
<Shinmera>
resttime: Just refer to portacle
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<resttime>
Shinmera: Great, forgot about it since I just use my own setup.
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<jmercouris>
How do you guys produce binaries for Linux?
<jmercouris>
Obviously distro dependent, but let's say for Debian, Suse, the big ones
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<pierpa>
uh?
<Shinmera>
Since Linus is nice and userspace rarely ever breaks, you can build binaries in one place and not have to worry about anything provided you don't use C libraries.
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<Shinmera>
If you do use C libraries, welcome to hell.
<Shinmera>
Depending on a variety of factors like complete dependency tree, ABI compatibility, version constraints in the tree, etc. you can get away with shipping none to some of the shared libraries with your binary.
<Shinmera>
If you're unlucky you need to either constrain yourself to releasing packages for each distribution, or grabbing deep into the bag of tricks and do stuff like I do with Portacle.
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<Shinmera>
You might also consider Docker or AppImage or similar solutions.
<pjb>
jmercouris: there's a portability library that lets you generate executable images on several implementations.
<pjb>
jmercouris: I don't remember exactly it's name, perhaps cl-launcher?
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<jmercouris>
Shinmera: So if I use only CL libraries I should be okay?
<jmercouris>
pjb: Is that maybe called portacle?
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<Shinmera>
jmercouris: Provided your implementation does not bind in any C libraries :^)
<jmercouris>
pjb: Wait, I'm sorry ignore that
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<Shinmera>
If it's just libc/libm/libdyld you can usually get away with it
<nirved>
aslo depends if the CL libraries use external C libraries
<pjb>
it's trivial-dump-core
<jmercouris>
I see
<jmercouris>
so most of them seem to be centered around this kernel + image idea
<jmercouris>
so ECL is actually the odd one out for compiling as a C program then
<Shinmera>
Well it is its primary purpose, so
<jmercouris>
That makes sense, absolutely yeah
<Shinmera>
ABCL can also deploy to a jar for the same reason
<pjb>
jmercouris: if you want to distribute on different platform, the best is to distribute the source, and compile for the platform at installation time.
<jmercouris>
I started with ECL though, so the other Lisp impementations seem weird to me now :P
<jmercouris>
pjb: So creating an install script? or bundling in a deb or rpm file?
<pjb>
jmercouris: you may try to distribute fasl files, but this is more risky. Some implementation guarantee that their fas files will work on all the platforms (eg. clisp), but not all do.
<jmercouris>
Hmm ok, let me at least get my stuff working on Linux, then I'll worry about deployment
<pjb>
jmercouris: yes, both. You write a deb and use an intallation script that will compile automatically the sources to produce the binary.
<jmercouris>
I can always just make it "compile it yourself on linux" type thing for a while, I expect that would be okay for most linux users
<pjb>
Notice that asdf provide a function to gather all the sources of your system and its dependencies in a single source file, to ease this kind of distribytion.
<jmercouris>
pjb: Right, I do seem to remember some directive like as-library or something
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<jmercouris>
I can't remember what that's called though, but okay yeah, there is a facility for it, and if your implementation allows, you could do a single fasl file
<jmercouris>
got it
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<jmercouris>
pjb: Thank you for the advice as always!
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