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<dra>
Hi. With slime-cl-indent in contribs the exports in defpackage (:export :foo :bar :baz) aren't indented correctly for me, "correctly" meaning exported symbols are aligned. Is this a known problem?
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<yakuza>
hi
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<pjb>
hi
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<python476>
hello
<python476>
i'm reading art of the mop, it's pretty nice to peel off CLOS metalevel, Im curious if you knew similar books (lisp or not)
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<yakuza>
I'd venture say Lisp in Small Pieces, Let Over Lambda, SICP, Anatomy of Lisp, depending on what sort of metalevel you are interested in (then there's lambda calc and such mathematical theories)
<Bike>
none of those are so much about designing a modifiable system in quite the same way, i don't think
<python476>
I've some of them, they don't have the same metameta feel (if that makes sense)
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<yakuza>
Oh I get it
<python476>
I'm curious about reading Cantwell 3lisp (have been for years) for the reflection focus
<Bike>
that thing is.... extremely thick
<Bike>
i couldn't stand it. best of luck
<python476>
in its wording or just the pagecount ?
<python476>
i skimmed through the first pages long ago, I didnt drown but I remember thinking that this is not the typical computing book
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<Bike>
mostly the wording
<Bike>
it's definitely non typical. it seemed almost wholly semantic
<Bike>
like i'm readin whitehead or some shit
<python476>
yeah, well summarized
<python476>
an exercise in pure thinking in a way
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<python476>
the more I read the more I get away from the machine, so now Im tempted by very abstract, even things that I would consider pure snob fluff years ago
<Bike>
humility is a virtue.
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<python476>
what do you mean
<python476>
it's not good to abstract too much ?
<Bike>
no, just saying it's good you gave up on writing things off as snobbery.
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<python476>
I guess age shifts your perspective
<python476>
one of the reason I don't like ageism, time teaches
<python476>
or "youngism" I should say
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<vutral>
good morning beach
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<dmiles>
what is the fastest planner that is written in comonlisp ?
<pillton>
planner?
<dmiles>
planner = fastdownward
<dmiles>
or shop2
<dmiles>
that run on PDDL files
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<beach>
Amazing how the three answers to a question immediately suggest three more questions. "fastdownward"? "shop2"? "PDDL"?
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<dmiles>
actually since its still maintained it might be taking on all the discoveries made each year
<dmiles>
when one planner author finds out the secret of ohters in yearly compititions everyone else i think incorperates it
<edgar-rft>
fourth question: what is meant with "fast"? I assume tat a slow planner can be faster on a simple plan than a fast planner on a complex plan?
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<dmiles>
fast means = consumes complex plans (tetris domains) like sugar water
<dmiles>
super fast would mean able ot be used to play chess :P
<edgar-rft>
even the slowest planner is capable to play chess if there's enough time
<dmiles>
ah so i think i want the least slowest planner for chess in common lisp
<dmiles>
(that is not chess specific of course)
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<aeth>
I was considering making a chess game as a Lisp game but I think that that is the road of spending the next 10 years on chess AI instead of a game.
<Zhivago>
Just have the AI be a player.
<aeth>
Well, maybe the game can be to provide an API for people to write their own AIs.
<aeth>
"Here's a CL chess engine, now bring your own chess AI."
<aeth>
I doubt there's a shortage of people interested in AI
<dmiles>
feudal was like 3d chess when i was a kid
<aeth>
Well, there was at least one game that was a bunch of board games. I remember playing one of these a long time ago. I didn't realize they made so many of them, though, so I don't know which one. (link to gamefaqs because they have so many games in their database) https://www.gamefaqs.com/search?game=hoyle+board+games
<aeth>
probably the one from 2001 or 2002
<aeth>
(Hoyle Board Games looks like one of those games that was/is rereleased almost every year.)
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<pillton>
I think there are chess AIs that operate using standard input and standard output.
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<Zhivago>
You might look at the existing chess protocols.
<pillton>
aeth: crafty I think.
<Zhivago>
Ah, FICS.
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<aeth>
I've never used standard input in CL, actually.
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<aeth>
pillton, Zhivago: Thanks, I guess I was wrong about chess. Turns out there's a well-defined difference between chess engine and chess GUI through the two protocols (XBoard/WinBoard and UCI) so it actually isn't a monumental undertaking to make a chess GUI.
<aeth>
of course, like KDE/Qt vs. GNOME/Gtk or RSS vs Atom or Emacs vs vim etc, there are two warring standards, because why not?
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<aeth>
Or, alternatively "maybe the game can provide an API" was something people thought of in 2000 (UCI) and 1994 (xboard)
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<aeth>
How do I read output? I can do with-output-to-string, but that will take all the output. What if I want to read it one line at a time, like with read-line when I'm reading a file?
<loke`>
aeth: with-input-from-string?
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<aeth>
I don't understand
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<aeth>
I'll clarify my question. I can take a UCI chess engine, e.g. stockfish (no idea if it's good, it's just UCI and in Fedora's repos), like this: (with-output-to-string (out) (with-input-from-string (in "uci") (uiop/run-program:run-program "stockfish" :output out :input in) out))
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<aeth>
That will give it the command uci (which starts the program) and it'll speak a bunch of things to the string out
<aeth>
but it looks like it's a line oriented-protocol, i.e. I should be parsing each line into its own string, to then handle
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<aeth>
What it looks like I should be doing instead with uiop's run-program is having a loop where I send the program one or more lines of input through in and then read one line of output at a time through out.
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<aeth>
(Actually, sending it things will be based on clicks and not automatic, but that's a long way away.)
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<aeth>
If it was a file with one-line commands instead of output from an external program it would be something like this: (with-open-file (foo #P"~/foo.foobar") (some-loop-thing (do-something-with-each-line (read-line foo))))
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<jasom>
aeth: doing that right is very hard with pipes on unix (ignoring the question of lisp)
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<borei>
hi all
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<malice>
What's the difference between the DECLAIM in top-level and PROCLAIM?
<malice>
It looks like the effect would be the same, eventually DECLAIM would shadow the previous PROCLAIM?
<Shinmera>
One is a macro and one is a function.
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<malice>
And the effective difference, as in the observable effects?
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<Shinmera>
Well, PROCLAIM being a function, it is not evaluated at compile-time.
<Shinmera>
The clhs entries on these are not long. Just read them.
<malice>
Well, I guess I'll use declaim. Thank you.
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<hjudt>
Shinmera: i've got a problem with radiance setup: when i call the server from another machine, any links that get generated by r-clip are transformed into localhost://. example: <a href="#" @href="/some/resource/on/this/server/{0} *">...
<hjudt>
that would probably be the domains part which i need to change?
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<Shinmera>
How are you accessing the pages from your other machine?
<Shinmera>
Like, what URL are you using?
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<hjudt>
i want to use the machine's hostname or ip address
<Shinmera>
Okey. Well, in order to be able to differentiate what are subdomains and what aren't, Radiance needs to know about potential "top level domains". So you need to add all the domains to the configuration.
<Shinmera>
I thought I wrote about how to do that somewhere, hold on
<hjudt>
how can i change the configuration? is it possible on the fly?
<hjudt>
i have added "my-machine" with radiance-core:add-domain, but that didn't help. the links generated are still "localhost:8080/project/some-other-page".
<Shinmera>
What is the link you're using in the browser?
<hjudt>
where would i do this? in another programming language or setup i could simply edit a configuration file. how would i do this with radiance?
<Shinmera>
It's in the same configuration file as the domains. (uiop:native-namestring (mconfig-pathname :radiance))
<Shinmera>
You can change the mapping either in there manually or with (mconfig :radiance :interfaces :database)
<hjudt>
ok. and then i would have to restart radiance, as told by the tutorial, right?
<Shinmera>
Yes. Implementations of interfaces generally can't be switched out on the fly.
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<hjudt>
that's ok. as a newbie, this is not trivial. it is also not written in the documentation as far as i could see, especially the stuff with the mconfig pathname. thanks for your help
<hjudt>
you did write something about it in the deployment part of your tutorial though...
<Shinmera>
Yes, though it's not very elaborate.
<Shinmera>
I should probably write about it in a bit more length somewhere, but I'm not sure where to stuff it.
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<hjudt>
Colleen: thanks. that at least lists some stuff. it is just so weird and strange from anything one can find out there (speaking of non-lispy stuff) that i probably am not used to deal with it this way. to be more explanatory, i have glanced over this stuff (1.11 environment), but at the time i read it i did not know what to do with this kind of information.
<Colleen>
Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, grant, time, tell, say, mop, block, award, roll, help,
<hjudt>
ok, colleen is the bot
<Shinmera>
Yeah, it's a reference document, so it's not really great for telling you what to do with it.
<hjudt>
Shinmera: just a suggestion: imho, there is no need to explain every function, but what is missing is "here is the default config. if you want to change anything, you have to..."
<Shinmera>
Should probably talk about it in the tutorial somewhere.
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<hjudt>
maybe at the start of the tutorial mention "This gets you quickly started with radiance on your local machine. If you want to set it up to be accessible from other machines or change the default configuration, follow the instructions at the end of the tutorial...", referencing Page 7 and adding a "Changing configuration" section there?
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<Shinmera>
Maybe even a Pt. 8 with other assorted "need to know" things.
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<hjudt>
probably. part 7 has grown very long already.
<Shinmera>
The domains thing in particular is obscured because the bootstrapper already configures that for you
<Shinmera>
So it is, technically, covered in 7, just not in a way you would be able to realise.
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<hjudt>
when i started with radiance, i didn't even use r-clip, but used uri-to-url directly and wondered why it didn't work.
<Shinmera>
Sorry!
<hjudt>
so it is important enough to mention it somewhere separately i think
<Shinmera>
Yes, definitely.
<hjudt>
no need to be sorry. i am a tester now ;-)
<Shinmera>
There's a few people using radiance now, from what I've heard, but I haven't gotten much feedback yet, so it is possible there's other corners that aren't working quite right.
<paule32>
like you can see, the topic is electronics
<paule32>
is line 46 and forward right?
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<Josh_2>
Idk but instead of (if .. (if .. you could just do (if (zerop (and inp inm))
<Josh_2>
and you don't drop the ) onto new lines
<Josh_2>
also (if <condition>
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<Josh_2>
oops (if <condition> <if true do this> <if false do this>) so I'm not sure if on line 9 you meant to (setq out-state 0) regardless of whether the condition is true or false
<paule32>
hi Josh_2
<Josh_2>
If you want to do multiple things if it is true/false then you need to wrap them in a (progn ..)
<paule32>
can you provide a small example, of a power circle?
<pjb>
Josh_2: (defun and-circuit (a b) (logand 1 (logand a b)))
<Josh_2>
That's an even better way
<pjb>
Of course. Just fucking use booleans! (and a b)
<beach>
Josh_2: Your code is badly indented.
<Josh_2>
How so?
<beach>
Josh_2: Indent it with SLIME and you will see.
<Josh_2>
I did indent it with slime
<beach>
Then your pastebin must have screwed up the indentation.
<Josh_2>
I wrote the function straight into repl
<beach>
And then you removed the prompt?
<beach>
... before pasting?
<Josh_2>
Nope
<Josh_2>
I see the problem
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<beach>
Josh_2: Also, you need to know that many attempts have been made to help paule32, and he hasn't followed a single piece of advice he has been given. For example, the thing about not preceding closing parentheses with whitespace has been given a very large number of times. I am telling you this, because you are very likely wasting your time trying to be helpful in this case.
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<paule32>
and how can i code a power circle with 2 and's ?
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<beach>
It has been explained to him over and over that it is highly impolite to submit code for others to read if it does not follow widely agreed-upon conventions, and these conventions have been explained many many times. Despite this fact, paule32 continues this very impolite behavior, while still demanding help.
<Josh_2>
I feel just a little sick reading the code
<beach>
Yes, and getting such feelings across seems impossible.
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<Josh_2>
beach: I'll just shh myself
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<pjb>
Josh_2: power circles are CIRCLES! They cannot be represented by a single integer, and they cannot be coded with two AND or any number of IF!
<pjb>
Josh_2: you need a more complex representation. For a power cicle you'd need at least a point (two coordinates) and a radius (one coordinate). So you need a structure or a vector with 3 slots.
<pjb>
Furthermore your circuit will be in a given state, so you will need an angle at a given time.
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<pjb>
And even more to represent the phasors.
<Josh_2>
Well that causes a few problems then
<pjb>
Sorry, s/Josh_2/paule32/
<pjb>
paule32: ^
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<paule32>
how can i code such slots? for the simple power source + and - , and electrical metal leader
<pjb>
Well, you would have to learn lisp. Lisp provides various data types that you can use to code such slots.
<Bike>
what is a power circle?
<paule32>
i mean a simple power source
<paule32>
with the two poles + and -
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<pjb>
Bike: a device to help computing stuff about power lines.
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<pjb>
paule32: a power source doesn't simply have two poles. It provides tension intensity, it has an electro-motrice force, etc.
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<beach>
Bike: And "tension" is the correct term for what Americans incorrectly call "voltage", in case you wonder.
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<Bike>
no, i know that one
<beach>
Good.
<beach>
"amperage" should be "current", "mileage" should be "distance", "wattage" should be "power", etc.
<Bike>
voltage is the only one i actually got in my EE classes
<beach>
"mileage" is of course sometimes "fuel efficiency".
<Bike>
yeah i was going to say.
<Bike>
anyway, so this power circle thing is like, phasors? i'm just asking out of curiosity, all teh stuff i learned was microelectronics
<Bike>
i only know a bit of transmission line stuff from biology
<beach>
But Americans usually say "how tall are your?" rather than "what is your footage and inchage?".
<Bike>
in europe, they say "metrage"
<pjb>
Bike: well, I don't reallay know anything about it, I just googled power circle five minutes ago…
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<Bike>
i see. i found some ieee papers from the 50s but none of them were introductory.
<beach>
Bike: Unfortunately, in France they use "metrage" for movie films.
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<pjb>
yes, because movie films are measured by length.
<beach>
pjb: Doesn't give then an excuse to use a particular unit, rather than just "film length".
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<pjb>
"métrage" is the generic term for any kind length, not only firms.
<beach>
*sigh*
<pjb>
It's also the action to measure.
<beach>
That's true.
<Bike>
as far as measurements go i'm just glad they're redefining amps to be physically measurable and kilograms to be something other than "the mass of this one lump of platinum alloy in france"
<pjb>
And short movies are called "Court-métrage".
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<Fade>
in fact, Practical Common Lisp is a good source for any fundamental questions.
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<Fade>
minion, tell Josh_2 about PCL
<minion>
Josh_2: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<sjl>
> Expansion of the loop macro produces an implicit block named nil unless named is supplied. Thus, return-from (and sometimes return) can be used to return values from loop or to exit loop.
<sjl>
note that there's also a loop clause named return
<sjl>
the "Setting up and Tearing Down" section of PCL that Fade linked covers your options
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<Josh_2>
Yes I found my answer thanks
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<Josh_2>
Am gonna use (loop-finish) :D
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<solene>
hello, I don't know much about GUI toolkits. What lib would you recommend me for writing a GUI app in common lisp ?
<sjl>
Josh_2: if it's just a simple test you can do it with LOOP's until
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<mrottenkolber>
solene: on what operating system shall the program run?
<solene>
mrottenkolber, that seem to fit my need :)
<turkja>
(but otoh it was a pleasure :D )
<mrottenkolber>
solene: alternatively there are some good Qt bindings for CL, but I don’t know which project specifically I should point to. McCLIM experts hang out in #clim
<solene>
I'm afraid that Qt would be too complicated isn't it ?
<mrottenkolber>
solene: I share that fear of Qt
<mrottenkolber>
but I haven’t done any GUI programming in CL so \o/
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<emaczen>
solene: If you have a Mac I would recommend using CCL's builtin cocoa-bridge
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<SaganMan>
Hello peeps
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<sjl>
qtools makes using Qt from Lisp less painful, but unfortunately it's built on an older version of Qt that's beginning to bitrot
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<sjl>
There's also Lispworks' thing if you've got cash to burn for a license.
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<Josh_2>
sjl: it is a simple test, but I have to do something and then break out of the loop so I have used (progn some-stuff (loop-finish))
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<Josh_2>
So i've ported two algorithms from C like languages and they don't look particularly nice, they are just the same procedural code but in CL, am I going to be murdered for doing that? I'm not really sure how to do it any other way
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<Bike>
why would anyone murder you for that? that would be a pretty pathetic reason to break the law
<Bike>
anyway, you can do a straight port like that but it's possible there's a "lispier" way to do it
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<Josh_2>
I think I may spend tomorrow trying to make my ports lispier, I'm sure with lots of study I'll be able to understand the algorithms enough to make them look nicer
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<pjb>
Josh_2: lispier doesn't necessarily make the algorithm better or the implementation faster.
<pjb>
Josh_2: you can keep the ugly algorithm, if it's working good or fast, and just wrap it in a lispy API.
<Josh_2>
Alright :)
<pjb>
Josh_2: eg. if you have a graph algorithm using vectors of small and compact ints as nodes, you may keep the uglyness, but wrap it in a function that would map a list of symbols or other lisp objects to the fixnums.
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<Josh_2>
Well both the algorithms are fuzzy string matchers
<shka>
good evening!
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<pjb>
Josh_2: so as long as your API takes lisp strings, you can do anything inside. Like converting strings to trees of fixnums (using code-char), etc.
<pjb>
Josh_2: functional abstractions; we don't care what's inside as long as it's bug-free, and does the job.
<Josh_2>
Alright thanks for the heads up!
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<turkja>
but there's nothing wrong in writing lisp like C, it's still better than writing C like C
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<pjb>
indeed
<shka>
Josh_2: i fully agree with pjb, as a example, this is clustering algorithm i implemented recently, notice how ugly it is underneath
<shka>
i think i could make it slightly prettier, but frankly, API is reasonable
<shka>
so why should i care?
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<shka>
well, i still want to clean it
<mrottenkolber>
shka: yeah too be honest that looks kinda brutal
<shka>
was in the hurry
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<jmercouris>
shka: Yeah, I don't know I agree with that, as the underlying maintainer, you should care, as you will have to expand and fix the code when it breaks
<jmercouris>
Users of your API should not concern themselves, but you yourself should
<shka>
but the point is, some things are just slightly more complicated
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<pjb>
I would dare to say that absolutely ALL the algorithms in TAOCP look ugly in lisp.
<takitus>
pjb: But there are plenty of algorithms with an elegant functional expression that look horrible in imperative form, as well.
<pjb>
sure
<jmercouris>
takitus: Far fewer though
<jmercouris>
Basically 99% of algorithms look much better procedural style
<jmercouris>
*disclaimer* I made up that number
<takitus>
jmercouris: I suppose it's a matter of taste, but just clearing out the forest of assignments seems to improve clarity. Quicksort comes to mind.
<shka>
there is no, by definition, fully functional implementation of quicksort
<takitus>
shka: I meant improvements in clarity, not that it's a good algorithm :)
<shka>
well, yes
<shka>
but i guess it is very subjective area
<takitus>
Computational aesthetics?
<jmercouris>
I should think though that it really doesn't matter, as 99% of the job of programmers is not algorithm implementation, but glue code and object relationship structuring, and edge cases
<shka>
for instance, I am fine as long as main loop is tidy
<shka>
so i can follow basic steps
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<jmercouris>
(defun main () (call-function-i-copied-all-code-to (arg1 ... arg99))
<shka>
but other than that, i don't care that much
<shka>
for instance, in this paste
<shka>
choose medoids, assign data, choose efective medoids, check if we are done, post processing
<pjb>
jmercouris: what is the function arg1?
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<takitus>
jmercouris: Since the job of a programmer is to describe a computation, I should think that knowing how to express computations elegantly would be very important.
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<jmercouris>
pjb: I'm joking that the user is passing several hundred args from their main function
<jmercouris>
pjb: You can pretend it's a macro :D, sorry I was thinking in python mode for a second there
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<pjb>
paule32: you can use the backtrace debugger command to see the stack of called functions, so you may get an idea of where you've done the mistake.
<pjb>
paule32: it seems you've pasted incomplete code, since there's no make-instance 'application-gui in it.
<paule32>
oh, sorry
<paule32>
i think, we think the same
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<paule32>
pjn: i use sbcl and run program, then type in "start"
<paule32>
(SB-C:COMPILER-ERROR SB-C::INPUT-ERROR-IN-COMPILE-FILE :CONDITION #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR "unmatched close parenthesis" {1003130DB3}> :STREAM #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /home/jens/Projekte/ai/test/kallup.lisp" {1005CEC513}>)
<paule32>
is a little bit magic, to find the parens
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<SaganMan>
I just realized let* is nested let
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<paule32>
ah o got it
<paule32>
i find the feature of intelsense - where parentens checked which is open or closed
<paule32>
seems no write rights here, because i have to enable this by each start of the editor
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<pjb>
paule32: you're programming lisp with Visual Studio?
<paule32>
haha, no
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<pjb>
There's no intelsense in emacs.
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<paule32>
but highlightnig
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<jmercouris>
paule32: What are you using to program?
<paule32>
gnome gedit
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<jmercouris>
paule32: Use a proper editor, and you'll have far fewer problems
<pjb>
yeah, use emacs.
<pjb>
Currently, you're programming blindfolded and both hands tied in the back…
<paule32>
hui
<paule32>
>.>
<jmercouris>
You might as well be programming only using terminal redirection
<pjb>
paule32: you don't have a problem with progn. In your pasted code, progn is about the only thing that works correctly. Even if you could remove it and it wouldn't make a difference.
<pjb>
paule32: You're writing expressions that have no side effect and of which you don't use the result.
<Josh_2>
pjb: there is a spelling error on that site #lispweb "developped"
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<pjb>
paule32: you're referencing to variables that are undefined.
<pjb>
Josh_2: it's a wiki, correct it!
<Josh_2>
I will do that
<pjb>
paule32: you still don't get it that to call a function you have to use the Call operator: (
<Josh_2>
The site isn't HTTPS and it wants me to put in an email and pass...
<pjb>
paule32: as in ( kallup-init-app ) = Call the function kallup-init-app and no more argument.
<pjb>
paule32: in lisp we need a closing parenthesis for all expressions, because they can take a variable number of argument, and we want to be able to process them with macros that don't know the operators!
<paule32>
thank you pjb
<pjb>
paule32: hence (kallup-init-app) ; we don't write useless spaces.
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<paule32>
ok
<Josh_2>
Okay I fixed it
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<pjb>
Josh_2: thanks.
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<Josh_2>
There is a dead link in the getting started, shall I remove the whole entry? I am going to put that new link that I posted just a minute a go in its place? Sorry for the question I've never done this before
<Josh_2>
I just left it and left a comment in the HTML
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<pjb>
Depends what link?
<pjb>
Usually it's good to keep the dead link around. Perhaps it'll resurrect. Or we may find it in archive.org
<pjb>
So you mean indicate it on the page, and link to the archive instead.
<Josh_2>
I guess so
<pjb>
/mean/may/
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<rpg>
Xach, XachX: about to release ASDF 3.3.1 I can no longer replicate your issue with loading the new UIOP.
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<dmiles>
can (defun (setf foo) ..) be easily transformed to s (defsetf foo ..) ?
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<Ober>
failing on lw7.1 also?
<Bike>
easily? well, it's not that hard
<Josh_2>
dmiles: with a macro
<Bike>
they mean different things, though
<Josh_2>
I did not realize that (defsetf is already a function
<dmiles>
i am failing at googling to find an exact tranformation.. lets say i wanted to transtate my defsetf (long and short forms ti defun (setfs ..)
<Bike>
well, that might not always be possible. defsetf makes something like a macro, so it can use compile time things.
<Bike>
though it probably won't.
<dmiles>
ok but the other direction would work?
<Bike>
yeah, it's like janky inlining.
<Bike>
why do you want to?
<dmiles>
its for my compiler and i want a single represenation.. or two .. but not three
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<Bike>
i don't follow. defsetf and (defun (setf ...) ...) do different things.
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<Bike>
the former tells setf how to macroexpand. the latter just defines the function called by the default macroexpansion.
<dmiles>
jsut as defsetf shortform and long form do differnt things right?
<Bike>
no, in that case the short form is kind of a shorthand for a stereotyped long form.
<dmiles>
ok good.. so at least i only need two representation
<dmiles>
(i cna convert the short form to long form)
<dmiles>
cna/can
<Bike>
I don't understand what you mean by "representation".
<dmiles>
a "representation" would be a single evaluatable form (one API)
<dmiles>
that each setf expander would macroexpand into
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<Bike>
setf expanders are functions.
<Bike>
you can have defsetf and define-modify-macro expand into define-setf-expander, which hangs a function somewhere where get-setf-expansion can use it.
<Bike>
er, not define-modify-macro.
<dmiles>
ok yes it looks like all the forms can be converted to a DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER
<Josh_2>
pjb: on the home page "exercises" is spelt wrong but I can't change because it is a link to a new page which is named incorrectly
<Josh_2>
It's spelt "excercices"
<vsync>
what's the advantage of funcallable-standard-object over an object with a slot holding the function?
<shka>
vsync: they are for different things
<vsync>
it saves an extra lookup I guess if there's only 1 function associated but it certainly avoids the "linking them in separate hashtable" mentioned in spec
<vsync>
shka: oh?
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<shka>
funcallable-standard-object can be a generic function
<shka>
and this comes with method combinations and all that jazz
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<vsync>
yeah but couldn't you put a generic function in the slot too?
<shka>
this way algorithm does not care what SPECIFIC function it is working with because all it really needs to know that it can use this function as argument to make-bucket
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<shka>
all of this allows me to share code between multiple implementations of functions that modify container
<Bike>
dmiles: this is wrong, short form defsetf can have documentation. i don't know what emacs-cl is though.
<shka>
which is nice, because it reduces number of code lines i have to maintain
<shka>
vsync: does that looks better?
<vsync>
1sec, got pulled, sorry
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<dmiles>
Bike: yeah that file had two versions.. line 640 doent nesc understand short form docs .. line 669 might
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<vsync>
back, lemme read
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<vsync>
shka: hmm where are you specializing for example ADD?
<vsync>
don't see defmethods
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<vsync>
but I think I'm kinda getting the direction of it
<vsync>
ok but for a dict won't you clobber a value already there? so not necessarily growing
<shka>
depends!
<shka>
insert will clobber, update will only clobber, add will never clobber
<vsync>
nice
<shka>
but that's just another value for me to return
<shka>
on the lower level i have set of functions, they will return status of operation which includes information like: did anything actually changed?
<shka>
or: what was old value
<shka>
look at line 153
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<shka>
actually 152
<vsync>
k
<vsync>
ohhhhh
<vsync>
because for the functional variants you need to do common rebuilding stuff
<vsync>
ok
<shka>
yes
<vsync>
so where do methods of grow-bucket live? for dicts
<shka>
and having this indirection layer makes things way simpler
<vsync>
or types of dicts
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<vsync>
i guess it's most handy for reentrant sort of stuff
<vsync>
where you're dealing with things that only deal with functions
<vsync>
and you may get your own function back later
<vsync>
and want to introspect on it
<vsync>
aside from the stuff you showed
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<shka>
well, honestly i would just curry a function instead of doing that construct stuff
<vsync>
well yeah for that example
<shka>
anyway, for me, it is awesome feature
<shka>
but i never felt like i need to tinker around set-funcallable-instance-function
<shka>
which is ironic, because example tries to show that this is why this thing exists
<shka>
it actually is the case, if you want to implement OO from scratch, but i never felt like doing that
<shka>
vsync: good night
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<vsync>
night, thanks
<shka>
i'm glad that i could be of any assistance
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<aeth>
I understand my stream problem a little more now. I have to use trivial-gray-streams to define my own stream(s).
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<aeth>
And... it looks like charcter streams are backed by a (circular?) buffer string of size (expt 2 13)
<aeth>
So if that's true I can just dust off my queue as circular buffer macro and stick the resulting struct in the new stream class under a buffer slot.
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<aeth>
(Technically, I could just make the stream class a circular buffer directly, but I already have one as a macro.)
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