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<jeosol_>
what is the better way to create function name at runtime. For get-cell-p0 function I am doing something like: (intern (format nil "GET-CELL-P~A" 0), I need to create other corresponding functions like get-cell-p1, get-cell-p2, etc
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<Bike>
well, usually you don't do that. if you do do that, something like that is fine, though you should use an explicit package and prefer find-symbol.
<jeosol_>
These functions are defined by a macro when I start the application. Then depending on the argument to another function, I have to pick one of get-cell-p1, get-cell-p2, etc
<Bike>
you cana't define the functions earlier?
<jeosol_>
@bike, what I mean is that, I need to call get-cell-p0, or get-cell-p1, as follows (funcall (intern (format nil "GET-CELL-P~A" 0)) I J K) -- this if for get-cell-p0. The get-cell-? functions have been defined earlier by a macro and take three
<jeosol_>
arguments i j k
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<Bike>
but you have to select which at runtime in that way?
<Bike>
i mean, you could also put the functions in a vector and index into it, or the like.
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<Bike>
or just have a get-cell that takes another argument for the index.
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<jeosol_>
@bike, that sounds imilar to what I do already: (LOOP FOR POINT ACROSS #(0 1 2 3) COLLECT (FUNCALL (INTERN (FORMAT NIL "GET-CELL-P~A" POINT)) I J K))
<jeosol_>
that is the snippet inside the function that calls get-cell-?
<jeosol_>
I guess the way I am making the call to get-cell-? is not "kosher"
<Xach>
in that situation i'd use find-symbol instead of intern
<Bike>
it's not a matter of being kosher, there's just easier ways to do it
<Bike>
you could have (defvar *get-cell-functions* (vector ...)) and then just (funcall (aref *get-cell-functions* point) i j k), for example
<jeosol_>
I see. much cleaner
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<Bike>
or just have like (defun get-cell-p (point i j k) (case point ...)) if they're similar enough
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<jeosol_>
I adjusted the macro to use the first format. I just packed the functions into the defvar. they have similar syntax. basically, the functions are extracting vertices from a polygon
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<Pierpa>
Already 5am! time flies.
<Pierpa>
Good morning!
<SaganMan>
Morning peeps
<SaganMan>
5AM? you must be somewhere in europe pierpa?
<Pierpa>
yes, in Italy
<SaganMan>
nice
<Pierpa>
no, Nice is in France!
<SaganMan>
pierpa: do you do lisp for fun?
<Pierpa>
(sorry couldn't resist :)
<Pierpa>
yes, for fun
<SaganMan>
pierpa: still beats living in a third world nation
<onion>
can defadvice be done with CLOS ?
<Pierpa>
defadvice is not CL. So, check your implementation docs
<fouric>
onion: defadvice is an emacs thing, right? you install a function to be run before/after another one?
<onion>
*can defadvice done with plain CLOS :around etc.? i know it is part of lispworks and emacs. and i suppose LW wouldnt have it if it could be done with plain CLOS.
<Pierpa>
not only emacs. Some CL implementations have an advice system
<beach>
onion: You may have to explain what defadvice does, since it is not standard Common Lisp.
<Pierpa>
beach, it allows to have some CLOS functionality over non-generic functions. Meant for debugging purposes.
<Pierpa>
beach: ^
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<beach>
Thanks.
<Pierpa>
for example, it allows to patch functions which we don't have the source of, with pre/post methods, and the like
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<blisp[m]>
Finally. Hey everyone
<blisp[m]>
Voidengineer here. aka cryptonarauder aka evilangel. Ive seen some shit. Dont ask lol
<blisp[m]>
Been dying to get back on here. Got some great ideas. Starting with a block list processor.
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<Pierpa>
what is a block list processor?
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* stacksmith
gets popcorn and waits patiently for an explanation.
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<stacksmith>
Oh I get it. It processes block lists!
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<beach>
Here is a nice little project for someone who needs practice with CLOS: Design a protocol for input methods, and implement a few common ones. I am particularly interested in latin-1 and the telex input method for Vietnamese. Such a library would be immensely useful. I would use it in Second Climacs, and in various CLIM applications. And jmercouris can use it in the Next browser.
<beach>
It is not entirely trivial, because it must be possible to obtain effects such as the underlining of "preliminary" characters as Emacs does, and to handle erasing correctly.
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<jackdaniel>
afair there is some multilingual support in CLIM-TOS wrt input methods
<beach>
Interesting.
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<beach>
So the person taking on this project should study what CLIM-TOS does. :)
<jackdaniel>
right, that's why I have mentioned it
<beach>
Sure.
<jackdaniel>
I'm refining my pane hirerachy introspection tool
<jackdaniel>
now I have "live" preview in the "drawn" representation
<beach>
Nice tool.
<shrdlu68>
I love how active this channel is.
<jackdaniel>
shrdlu68: what do you mean?
<shrdlu68>
You don't realize what a nice community CL has until you go into other languages' channels.
* beach
thanks for the advice and will stay out of those channels.
<shrdlu68>
I've never had a question go unanswered here, people try to at least acknowledge questions/comments.
<beach>
Sure.
<onion>
beach: hmmmm, i've been thinking of something like that for a while, input methods/touch keyboard. and it came up again recently, i will check out CLIM-TOS =)
<onion>
jackdaniel: what are you working on?
<beach>
onion: jackdaniel is doing a fantastic job maintaining and improving McCLIM.
<onion>
ohhh
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<beach>
onion: Since jackdaniel started doing that, several other people are now helping out as well. I am very pleased with the way things are going.
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<onion>
that is great to hear. CLIM-TOS i notice is an implementation from allegro? i notice theres a few, are they all wrong licenses or too old or not portable ?
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<jackdaniel>
onion: currently debugging mirror panes and protocols associated with them
<beach>
onion: We started McCLIM way before CLIM-TOS was made available.
<jackdaniel>
well, actually franz/clim2 was made available, clim-tos is fork to make it work on sbcl and ccl
<beach>
onion: And McCLIM is a better implementation than the commercial ones anyway.
<jackdaniel>
I hack on both, though McCLIM is way more complete (and I like it more)
<beach>
onion: We started McCLIM way before the commercial CLIM implementations were made available.
<jackdaniel>
still need to fix scaling to map better the proportions
<jackdaniel>
when I change the application which I do preview, preview updates as well
<beach>
Some nice tools you got there.
<jackdaniel>
yes, I plan to polish it a little and add to clim-examples
<onion>
oh nice! going to update my sources and then poke around TOS version and see what i can learn. i would like to work with japanese and right-to-left hebrew and other text stuff, it seems, and i am not sure that emacs is the place for it
<jackdaniel>
this will be very useful for writing new backends
<jackdaniel>
(as a debugging tool)
<jackdaniel>
notice that "composite" panes are also drawn in the preview
<jackdaniel>
despite being invisible in real application
<onion>
(my first project was gnustep to which i draw a lot of parallels with mcclim . touch-enabled is where i am looking toward)
<beach>
GNUstep is written in C++, right?
<pjb>
Objective-C
<onion>
and clim3 is considered incomplete? i remember asking before
<beach>
Oh, right.
<beach>
onion: Yes, I have abandoned it for the time being.
<onion>
yeah GNUstep implements OPENSTEP for the most part, where is no Cocoa Touch on iPhones .
<onion>
now*
<beach>
onion: There is a major design flaw that I need to fix first.
<onion>
beach: ohh, in clim3 the standard or implementation ? would it be silly to ask if 2 and 3 are both useful seperately.. ? hmm
<onion>
or can they be implemented together ~
<beach>
CLIM3 is a specification. CLIMatis is the implementation I worked on in parallel with the specification.
<beach>
It is very different from CLIM II.
<onion>
ah! hmmm
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<onion>
so the flaw is in climatic, or the spec?
<onion>
climatis*
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<beach>
In the specification. I didn't allow for non-contiguous regions for output records.
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<jackdaniel>
hm, after a thought - it is not a bug, it is just it "covered" rectangle drawn before it (because there is a pane name it top-left corner and "dot" in bottom-right) - both surrounded by a border
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<beach>
I am guessing that tools like that are going to turn out to be invaluable for debugging pane hierarchies. At the moment I just use Clouseau on the application frame, but that is quite a tedious technique.
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<jackdaniel>
that's why I'm writing it :)
<beach>
Indeed. :)
<jackdaniel>
I've already found some bugs thanks to that (because it is easier to "see" the problem than deduce it)
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<beach>
I can imagine.
<jackdaniel>
person with enough time could hack it into something for prototyping clim application layouts too I suppose
<blisp[m]>
Which lisp are you guys running on android?
<blisp[m]>
Lol that reminds me of a quote from Pineapple Express. Have you ever seen the back of a dollar bill man well have you ever seen the back of a dollar bill on weed
<blisp[m]>
Lol
<jackdaniel>
blisp[m]: ECL works on android, you may look for it in google play
<jackdaniel>
EQL5 project provides nice gui for it
<blisp[m]>
oh good.
<blisp[m]>
Fdroid or play?
<Shinmera>
SBCL, CLISP, and LispWorks also work, but aren't available as apps, as far as I know.
<jackdaniel>
it's not in fdroid yet, but apk is possible to download
<blisp[m]>
Word thanks
<Shinmera>
CCL works too, I think.
<Shinmera>
Anything with ARM64 support, really.
<jackdaniel>
fwiw lispworks has app (not sure if it is available in any store though)
<blisp[m]>
Does anyone know why there's no clisp FreeBSD
<blisp[m]>
Is it the license?
<beach>
blisp[m]: You are aware that CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp, right.
<jackdaniel>
doubtfully, maybe they decided they do not need that many CL implementations
<beach>
And not an abbreviation for it.
<blisp[m]>
Hey beach
<blisp[m]>
Yup i am
<beach>
Just checking.
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<blisp[m]>
Im just curious is there are any FreeBSD users in here you know why there's no clisp in ports
<beach>
Why in particular are you looking for CLISP?
<Shinmera>
no users is my guess.
<blisp[m]>
Well honestly no real reason just that I started with it and I was surprised to see that it wasn't there
<blisp[m]>
I thought it might make it better lisp for scripting actually
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<blisp[m]>
Beach, what's the status of your list OS is it working well enough to provide any significant advantage over a non list OS especially for doing tasks that lisp was made for? And lastly what's the chances that it would support something like opencl?
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<blisp[m]>
Are you still wanted to be super purist I would just write my own opencl implementation in lisp but I don't like to reinvent the wheel all the time
<beach>
blisp[m]: I assume you are referring to the LispOS in my specification?
<blisp[m]>
I'm sorry Google is a little drunk tonight
<beach>
It doesn't exist.
<blisp[m]>
What about the one mezzanine or something like that
<blisp[m]>
Mezano no se
<beach>
What is opencl?
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<blisp[m]>
Open compute
<blisp[m]>
For hashing etc
<blisp[m]>
Weird so I thought mezzano was yours. Steven looks like it's under active development
<beach>
I am afraid I don't know what you are talking about. Sorry.
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<blisp[m]>
Loool
<beach>
Mezzano is actively developed, yes, but I am not one of the developers.
<blisp[m]>
I remember you telling me many years ago that you were riding a common list operating system I was asking about that
<blisp[m]>
Oh then i dont want it
<blisp[m]>
Ill wait for yours lol
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<cess11_>
blisp[m]: For scripting BSD you might want to give picolisp a shot.
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<pjb>
blisp[m]: clisp runs on FreeBSD. That the FreeBSD people don't care for making a clisp package is their problem. You can just fetch the sources of clisp and compile it on any system you care to use.
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<Pierpa>
Afaiu, LW sells a runtime for Android and then a regular LW can deliver apps for it. It's not a development system which runs on android.
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<blisp[m]>
Pjb sup meng. Thanks am doing so now. I think freebsd needs package maintainers
<blisp[m]>
Oh good thats fine too and fits their use case
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<Younder>
Ubuntu is boring, but well maintained and reasonably secure. I like Qubes OS, but the lack of NVIDIA support is unacceptable to me.
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<ebzzry>
Is there a LispWorks channel?
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<phoe>
ebzzry: LW has its own support forums.
<ebzzry>
phoe: ok
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<pjb>
there's a lw maillist.
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<Younder>
1200 EUR for a Hobbyist LispWorks edition witch you can't use commercially, has no maintenance and no service.. These people need a reality check!
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<Shinmera>
I'm quite sure they know about running their own business better than you.
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<Younder>
Now you pay 1400 EUR for a professional version for which you have at lets a chance to make the money back. It they had sold the Hobbyist version for 200 EUR, then a hobbyist decides to take the product commercially and pays 1200 EUR ekstra for that, now that would make sense.
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<Younder>
Shinmera, It is not like other company's charge that much. They seem stuck. They sell in small quantity so the need to charge a lot. Because of their high price they don't make many sales. Catch 22
<Shinmera>
I'm quite sure they know about running their own business better than you.
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<Younder>
Shinmera, Well we all choose what we put our faith in.
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<Shinmera>
I don't have faith, I just know that you know much less about it than they do.
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<Younder>
How so? You don't know me either. Now you are just being derogative.
<Shinmera>
You don't know their audience, their sales, their structure, nothing. You're an outsider.
<jackdaniel>
pricing discussions / business advices belong to ---> #lispcafe :)
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<pjb>
Younder: if you compare the price/features of MoCL, I would say that Hobbyist LispWorks Ed is worth it.
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<Pierpa>
Still, no possibile maintenance, even paying extra. This is a bummer
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<beach>
ebzzry: It would be very strange if there were a channel on Freenode dedicated to a commercial software product.
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<phoe>
Younder: if they're still in the market, it most likely means something
<Younder>
phoe, yeah, old, faithful, professional customers. Their product is after all quite good.
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<ebzzry>
beach: I agree.
<ebzzry>
The x86_64 pro license for Linux is _expensive_.
<beach>
How much?
<Pierpa>
There's software which costs 500000 EUR per seat, it's much simpler than a cl development system, and which I suspect that sells more copies than lw...
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<Pierpa>
Correction: 500KEUR per seat per year
<Pierpa>
In a professional environment, lw practically is free
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<beach>
Sounds right.
<Xach>
That is my experience as well.
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<__Myst__>
Hi. I'm trying to write a lisp interpreter
<__Myst__>
I was wondering a bit of a weird question
<__Myst__>
In lisp, is there any case where something is mutable?
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<beach>
__Myst__: Yes, almost all cases.
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<__Myst__>
Can you provide an example? For some reason, I have the conception that most things in LISP are immutable.
<Shinmera>
Note that, in this channel, Lisp means Common Lisp.
<beach>
__Myst__: in case you wonder, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
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<__Myst__>
Shinmera: That's fine, I'm trying to implement a Common Lisp-like niterpreter.
<beach>
__
<Bike>
well, in common lisp most things are mutable.
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<__Myst__>
I'm obviously not trying to get 100% semantics because that would be hard + this is just a toy project
<beach>
__Myst__: Common Lisp is not a functional language in that sense.
<__Myst__>
Am I correct in thinking that integers, booleans and strings are immutable??
<Shinmera>
strings are mutable.
<__Myst__>
awesome!
<random-nick>
what happened with the person that was writing a Common Lisp interpreter as an assignment?
<__Myst__>
So I should provide mutability for strings and cons?
<Shinmera>
I recommend learning CL before trying to write an interpreter.
<shka>
obiously
<__Myst__>
Shinmera: I know *some* CL; I've not delved into it too deep
<__Myst__>
Not deep enough to write an interperter it seems
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<Shinmera>
If you don't know an example of a mutation you've not delved at all
<beach>
__Myst__: And arrays, and standard objects, and structs.
<shka>
__Myst__: what (setf (car a) 5) does you think?
<Shinmera>
beach: and packages, and symbols, and ....
<random-nick>
__Myst__: strings are just a vector of characters
<__Myst__>
shka: `a.car = 5`
<__Myst__>
(in some pseudolanguage)
<shka>
so why do you ask if lists are mutable?
<shka>
they clearly are
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<__Myst__>
I'd never seen that before honestly, but I can assume what it means
<Shinmera>
minion: tell __Myst__ about pcl
<minion>
__Myst__: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<__Myst__>
Is there a good guide on the "internals" so to speak of CL so I can better learn this stuff?
<shka>
then you don't know lisp
<Younder>
Reading up would help. 'List in small pieces' by Quinnec covers design of scheme and lisp compilers and interpreters.
<beach>
__Myst__: You have some studying to do it seems.
<__Myst__>
Sure seems like it
<shka>
anyway, common lisp is not that easy to implement, perhaps try scheme instead
<__Myst__>
Scheme is easier?
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<__Myst__>
Might be interesting to first implement Scheme then once I got a proper version of that try CL
<beach>
__Myst__: Much. But it also has mutable objects.
<__Myst__>
Thank you to all who have helped me.
<beach>
Good luck.
<Shinmera>
CL is a monumental effort to implement.
<beach>
Shinmera: Nah! :)
* beach
is just joking.
<shka>
I did that on Thursday.
<onion>
does that include CLOS? ._.
<Shinmera>
beach: Unfortunately quite a few people stumble in here thinking that it is in fact not monumental :/
<beach>
CLOS is not that complicated in fact. Or at least I don't think so.
<onion>
ahh=)
<__Myst__>
Shinmera: like me =P
<beach>
Shinmera: Yeah, I know. I actually did know what I took it on.
<Shinmera>
beach: I trust you did, you have a wealth of experience already.
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<beach>
Yes, I was not the least surprised to see that it was hard. :)
<random-nick>
the only thing that might be difficult about scheme is closures and continuations
<beach>
It is always a trade-off. It gets harder if you want good performance.
<random-nick>
and making it do something useful
<Shinmera>
__Myst__: You might also be interested in MAL, though it is off-topic here. https://github.com/kanaka/mal
<Pierpa>
And closures are exactly the same in cl
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<stacksmith>
As in lexical?
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<stacksmith>
beach: what was the hardest part for you?
<stacksmith>
In terms of a technical challenge (as opposed to the drudgery of all the loose ends and the sheer volume)
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<jackdaniel>
regarding full-blown continuations it is the fact that you store execution state as data
<jackdaniel>
that means that most of the time you must use heap for it (not the stack)
<stacksmith>
Has everyone given up on spaghetti at this point?
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<puchacz>
hi, it does not feel right to use (format s "~a" it) to print character by character to a stream, where s is inside (with-output-to-string (s)....)
<puchacz>
I am sure there is something like print-character that does not print #\space but actual space
<puchacz>
jackdaniel - yes, they both do what I want. thanks :)
<beach>
stacksmith: There have been no surprises so far. But the hardest part is definitely the organization of the compiler so as to obtain good performance.
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<stacksmith>
shka: spagghetti stack, which is more of a tree...
<shka>
that's about continuations?
<pjb>
you can write a simple CL compiler easily enough, if you target a lisp VM. Take for example clisp. The compiler is a single source file.
<stacksmith>
yeah
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<stacksmith>
beach: are you using an off-the-shelf GC?
<beach>
stacksmith: No. I invented that one.
<stacksmith>
generational?
<beach>
Two generations. Per-thread nurseries and one global generation.
<beach>
Concurrent and parallel.
<stacksmith>
Nice.
<beach>
I haven't written the code yet, though.
<beach>
But that code should be fairly simple.
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<beach>
The hard part is debugging all the concurrent stuff.
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<stacksmith>
beach: have you looked at Self? There were some nice ideas there, in-line polymorphic caches and such. At the time code size was troublesome, but that's not an issue anymore...
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<beach>
stacksmith: I am aware of Self, but haven't studied the specific compilation techniques in depth.
<beach>
stacksmith: Yes, I am betting that code size is no longer a problem in order to simplify the compiler.
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<stacksmith>
The polymorphic caches could accelerate dynamic dispatch, and they are pretty simple.
<beach>
stacksmith: I already invented a dispatch technique that is now used in Clasp, and SICL.
<stacksmith>
Ah.
<beach>
It is very simple, but the tough part is the invalidation when things change.
<stacksmith>
Funny how that's always the hard part...
<beach>
Writing papers is a job that can be learned. :)
<beach>
Of course, some ideas are needed first.
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<shka>
i guess, so, haven't been in touch with academic publications ever since i finished master degree
<beach>
But ideas tend to come automatically when one works with a problem for a long period of time.
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<shka>
recently i attempted to help my colleague with his thesis, and oh my god, he had like huge stock piles of papers all from circa 0.5 IF journals
<shka>
now i consider myself to be any expert in bad papers
<beach>
Heh.
<ebzzry>
(Thank you for your inputs.)
<beach>
shka: True, there is a lot of bad writing out there, as Steven Pinker correctly points out.
<stacksmith>
beach: thanks for the links. Enjoyable reading.
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<beach>
stacksmith: Pleasure. Glad you like it.
<shka>
beach: that's literally Pulp Science
<beach>
Sorry, what is?
<shka>
those quickly written, by the numbers, bad papers
<beach>
Ah, yes.
<beach>
Some of them are bad, even though they took considerable effort to write. Again, as Steven Pinker points out. :)
<beach>
stacksmith: Oh and the other VERY HARD part is bootstrapping. I will figure it out eventually, but it is taking a lot of time.
<shka>
I have to go, have a good evening
<beach>
Take care shka.
<stacksmith>
Bootstrapping is always an issue... I think SBCL fork was largely about that - and look at the mess today.
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<beach>
That is definitely what SBCL was about. I am trying to take things one step further by not using any C code at all.
<beach>
I haven't looked at SBCL in detail, so I can't say whether it is messy or not.
<stacksmith>
Well, I should say it seems pretty complicated.
<beach>
I can believe it.
<Bike>
i doubt there's a way to do it that isn't in some way complicated
<stacksmith>
You kind of need a whole lot of Lisp to implement Lisp...
<beach>
stacksmith: Yes, I use full Common Lisp + closer-mop.
<beach>
Bike: I am convinced you are right.
<beach>
By using first-class global environments, I am hoping to avoid the technique that SBCL uses of renaming the packages. And by bootstrapping from a full Common Lisp, I can use the CLOS machinery for stuff that would otherwise require special code.
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<beach>
Like, I can write (defclass symbol (t) ((%name ...) (%package ...)) :metaclass built-in-class)
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<drmeister>
I want to define a type... (deftype molecule-type () '(member protein ligand ion solvent))
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<drmeister>
I have a property-list slot in my MOLECULE class and I want to set the :TYPE property that way. That will lose type info.
<drmeister>
Hmm - I should probably have a 'type' slot for the molecule.
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<drmeister>
And not rely on a property list for something fundamental like this that can have one of a limited set of values.
<beach>
Why is the type called MOLECULE-TYPE rather than just MOLECULE.
<beach>
It sounds like it is a type of a type.
<drmeister>
I hadn't thought of that. Thank you.
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<drmeister>
I should also have an 'undefined' value for when it hasn't been defined yet.
<Shinmera>
Slots can be unbound.
<drmeister>
Oh - right.
<drmeister>
Bike: Did you set up something to expose setf functions for C++ methods?
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<Bike>
yeah.
<Bike>
wait. no.
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<drmeister>
Functions only right now - got it.
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<drmeister>
I think we are gonna want one for C++ methods. Or we have something to define reader, writer and read-write accessors.
<drmeister>
To do things in a more Common Lispy way.
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<jsjolen>
Hi! Is there a way to check where a Quicklisp provided system comes from? (I want to know if a particular system is from a fork or the original author)
<jsjolen>
I tried inspecting objects returned from ql:system-apropos-list but I didn't find the relevant data
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<Bike>
where, as in like its place on github or gitlab or whatnot?
<jsjolen>
Bike:Exactly, where the source code was obtained
<jsjolen>
Thank you, might be something worthy a pull request then :-)
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<puchacz>
hi, can somebody evaluate (ql:quickload "ironclad") in SBCL please?
<puchacz>
I am getting error on this source: 0: [RETRY] Retry compiling #<IRONCLAD-SOURCE-FILE "ironclad" "src" "public-key" "ed448">.
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<stacksmith>
Does anyone know why lambda list keywords are not keywords?
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<Shinmera>
Probably because keywords are usually reserved for either key-value pairs, or for specific tokens of their own. Lambda list keywords are markers of a different kind of structure.
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<stacksmith>
I suppose that is one reason.
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<puchacz>
st00pid compiler..... I changed #() to #.(make-array 0 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) and it works
<Shinmera>
It's not a stupid compiler, the software is wrong.
<puchacz>
ironclad?
<Shinmera>
Yes.
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<Shinmera>
#( produces a simple-vector, which has an explicit element-type of T.
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<puchacz>
Shinmera, ah, I see
<puchacz>
so not the same thing
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<stacksmith>
Sanity check: I am considering writing a with- macro that creates an environment for dealing with a complicated data structure. I was considering swinging in the package native to it with (use-package) for the body... Am I asking for trouble?
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<random-nick>
stacksmith: that would not work
<random-nick>
all the symbols in the macro would get read as the current package
<random-nick>
because the reader reads the whole expression at once
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<random-nick>
which is why you never see use-package as a non-toplevel form
<random-nick>
s/as the current package/in the current package/
<stacksmith>
Ah.
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<stacksmith>
Is there another way to do this? It seems reasonable to not have to type the package over and over inside an environments made specifically for that task...
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<stacksmith>
A reader macro I suppose...
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<Pierpa_>
Your macro could substitute symbols in whatever package with other symbols in the correct package?
<stacksmith>
I was just thinking that...
<Pierpa_>
Won't win any elegance prize, though
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<jackdaniel>
slap eval on top of that and define classes that way
<stacksmith>
Actually not too bad, because I can use the same symbols in different environments for different structures that require similar treatment... Kind of generic protocol...
<stacksmith>
If I had a penny for every library I wrote that I never ended up using, I'd have not quite enough for a cup of coffee.
<onion>
1.70...
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<jackdaniel>
if I hade a penny for every library I wrote I'd end up with two pennies
<stacksmith>
Wise. I have to take something for my OCD.
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<Shinmera>
I'd have several pennies.
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<bjorkintosh>
does anyone still use cmucl or is it dead?
<Shinmera>
It's still receiving updates.
<bjorkintosh>
I see.
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<sabrac>
shimera: ?
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<jcowan>
I have heard it said that compiler macros are a Bad Thing (or at least do not deliver on their apparent promises), but I can't find the argument now. Does anyone have an idea where or who?
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<Pierpa_>
Never heard this. Where did you hear it?
<loginoob>
bjorkintosh: aware but never read it because its been only a week since i started learning lisp
<bjorkintosh>
well then.
<bjorkintosh>
see if it answers your question.
<loginoob>
ok :)
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<ecraven>
loginoob: M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup may be relevant
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<loginoob>
ohh cool ecraven thank you
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<bjorkintosh>
loginoob, it was on that page I linked, btw.
<bjorkintosh>
alternatively, you can map a key to it, to make it even easier.
<bjorkintosh>
like f1 or f6 or something like that.
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<loginoob>
bjorkintosh: yes i saw that
<loginoob>
also tried M-x slime-describe-symbol
<loginoob>
:) thank you for the help. I'll learn them and try them
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<stylewarning>
hello friends
<makomo>
hello
<stylewarning>
how is lisp hacking
<Shinmera>
good
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<Shinmera>
but also bad
<stylewarning>
why
<zch>
Why would you use a top-level LET for function definitions? For example, here is some code (not mine) that has function definitions inside a let and has some local variables as well: https://0x0.st/sadA.txt - I'm just curious as to why not have top-level function definitions and either a LET inside those definitions for variables you're working with or introducing global variables.
<stylewarning>
Shinmera: does some CFFI code have you feeling sad
<jackdaniel>
zch: because there are other functions and you don't want to pollute global environment
<jackdaniel>
if you don't like extra nesting, you may use &aux
<jackdaniel>
which basically works like top-level let
<stylewarning>
aux is different, no?
<stylewarning>
the function closes over the value which is kept across invocations
<_death>
zch: there may be small perf gains, but personally I don't like that style and just use a global
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<zch>
I found it interesting, since I've never seen anyone code like that before (im a nooby programmer)
<jackdaniel>
stylewarning: regarding lisp hacking, I've created a debugging tool for clim pane hierarchies, check it out: http://hellsgate.pl/files/43a9c4f5
<stylewarning>
jackdaniel: consider it as spooky as you please, but i saw that this morning :)
<zch>
Thanks for the explanation, jackdaniel.
<jackdaniel>
I can manipulate sizes and positions of each pane in the gadget on the left (window on the right is an actual application-frame)
<_death>
also, in this case where it's only used in this one function, you could use a simple LET inside the function with LOAD-TIME-VALUE
<jackdaniel>
well, you didn't see this version
<stylewarning>
ah :)
<jackdaniel>
but sure, the idea is the same
<jackdaniel>
I've just added drag-and-drop
<jackdaniel>
plus some other conveniances
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<Shinmera>
stylewarning: Things aren't progressing as fast as I'd like and I haven't released a library in month
<Shinmera>
s
<jackdaniel>
stylewarning: regarding aux - it works like a top-level let as far as I know
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<stylewarning>
I've been super excited about jackdaniel's completion of Thrift for CL. I think it opens up so many possibilities for using Lisp programs as microservices.
<jackdaniel>
I've just tested it in the repl with: `(defun xxx (a &aux (b 42)) (print b) (incf b) (if (> a 4) (xxx (1- a) )))'
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<jackdaniel>
but it still works as top-level let*
<jackdaniel>
either way, it's late here, I'll re-read tomorrow (I'm too tired to process), goodnight \o
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<_death>
jackdaniel: your function should only print 42s
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<jackdaniel>
yes, that was my point
<_death>
cool... good night
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<khrb_t>
uname -a
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<jcowan>
I think what I have sorta figured out is that a compiler macro should be associated with a function, not with the function's name
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<_death>
I suppose in a Scheme attitude it makes sense.. but in practice what will it give you that the current approach, with a compiler-macrolet operator, is lacking? assuming (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) is quite rare
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<jcowan>
yes, probably nothing much, since compiler macros are only applied during direct calls
<jcowan>
however, compiler-macrolet is not standard
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<Bike>
do any implementations have a compiler macrolet?
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<Bike>
also, if you didn't get an answer on why compiler macxros aren't great, it's just because most optimizations require more information than just surface syntax.
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<Shinmera>
Type inference most notably.
<_death>
I don't know of any implementation with compiler-macrolet.. wishful thinking
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<jcowan>
ah, that's a relief
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<pillton>
Why would you need compiler-macrolet?
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<Bike>
compiler macro for a local function, or an optimization that only makes sense locally
<pillton>
Couldn't that just be done with macrolet?
<Bike>
but then you coouldn't call it
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<pillton>
I'm struggling with why you would want a local compiler macro for a local function which is also invoked as a function object.
<Bike>
it's exotic, certainly
<Bike>
maybe you have a with- macro that makes some local function available, and sometimes it can be compiled easier
<Bike>
like call-next-method
<pillton>
But who does (mapcar #'call-next-method ..)?
<Bike>
dunno. maybe someone.
<Bike>
apply call-next-method does happen t hough.
<pillton>
Oh right. Compiler macros are only invoked in (funcall ...).
* pillton
gets a broom for the cobwebs.
<Bike>
(apply #'call-next-method args...) could be inlined as (funcall next-method-function (list* args...) more-methods), incidentally
<Bike>
i doubt anyone bothers tho
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<jcowan>
Bike: when you say "most optimizations", you are talking about bog-standard compiler optimizations, not things like optimizing (+) to 0, right?
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<Bike>
i mean most optimizations
<Bike>
for +, for example, you want to reduce that to zero, and reduce (+ a) to a, and probably (+ a b c) to (+/2 a (+/2 b c)) or such
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<Bike>
but you also want to constant fold and maybe group numbers of the same kind together, and you can't do that syntactically
<Bike>
at the time of the compiler macro expansion, you lack information that a is constant
<jcowan>
well, okay, you can't do value propagation followed by constant folding, but the problem is with the value propagation
<Bike>
that's a pretty important problem.
<jcowan>
I don't disagree
<fiddlerwoaroof>
should quicklisp rebind *print-case* inside of quickload? It's probably not ideal to mess with people's settings like that, but a bunch of libraries seem to assume that *print-case* is :upcase in their macros, which often leads to mysterious breakages.
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<Bike>
wait, you mean quicklisp does rebind it now?
<jcowan>
one example I've seen is optimizing exponentially growing functions when their arguments are fixnums
<fiddlerwoaroof>
No, I should say that it doesn't
<Bike>
in that case i'd say what you're describing is not quicklisp's problem
<jcowan>
fiddlerwoaroof: What actually depends in a macro on the setting of *print-case*?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Some libraries do things like deriving function names from a symbol
<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. they take 'FOO and derive #'MAKE-FOO
<fiddlerwoaroof>
This frequently is done incorrectly because the library author only ever tests with *print-case* :upcase
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<Bike>
jcowan: not sure what you mean
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
While, in an ideal world this wouldn't be a problem, I'd generally prefer to have quicklisp temporarily normalize the value of *print-case* rather than having the library break mysteriously later on.
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<Bike>
but of course compiler macros aren't useless, it's just that they're not capable of describing all or probably even most function-specific optimizations
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I only ever notice this because I set *print-case* to :capitalize in .sbclrc
<Bike>
i really don't think this is quicklisp's problem. you can rebind it yourself, or you can file bugs with the libraries
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Sure, it's not quicklisp's problem, strictly speaking, but it might be a useful feature
<fiddlerwoaroof>
but, whatever
<Bike>
asdf does have some tuff for binding around an action