ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #ELLIOTTCABLE — “do something cool, shove it into throats, everyone thinks it's crap, then it's all amazing.” “everything else is just details.”
<devyn>
cuttle: also your comment about desktop linux is silly. who says that what I find unobtrusive has to be what <average person> finds unobtrusive
<devyn>
cuttle: we want to do very different things
<cuttle>
devyn: you need node.js minus the .js plus an actual way to abstract concurrency
<cuttle>
node.js is *awfu*
<cuttle>
awful*
<cuttle>
devyn: also that's exactly what I was saying
<cuttle>
I was characterizing the difference between us
<devyn>
okay :p
<cuttle>
you like linux on the desktop and you also like android better than ios
<devyn>
yeah and I'm not going to force that choice on anyone... that doesn't mean I necessarily understand it but I also don't, in general, know what you do most of the time
<devyn>
for what *I* do, tiling window managers and highly customizable keybindings/everything are a godsend
<devyn>
for most people, it's incredibly obtrusive
<devyn>
I understand that
<devyn>
I also think desktop linux may eventually be good for <average person>, if the right people who understand those needs work on it
<devyn>
but in that case it's generally about restricting functionality
<whitequark>
cuttle: (linus & github) he has a reason to: the github workflow(tm) has zero applicability to kernel
<whitequark>
(desktop linux) ubuntu is good for <average person>, depending on your definition of <average>, but it's not really the linux we, geeks, like, anymore
<cuttle>
whitequark: because it needs more centrality and authority?
<cuttle>
ubuntu is the middle ground that fails to satisfy either camp
<whitequark>
ubuntu moves in the direction of osx
<devyn>
cuttle: it is right now. it might eventually satisfy its target audience
<cuttle>
ubuntu's move "in the direction of osx" was unity
<whitequark>
in other words, with each next release of ubuntu, I want to deal with it less and less
<cuttle>
which was cargo cult ui design if i've ever seen it
<whitequark>
it does that in general
<cuttle>
literally none of the benefits of osx
<whitequark>
mir, systemd, etc
<whitequark>
standardized ui, hig, ...
<whitequark>
which is not to say that they do it well
<whitequark>
maybe they'll learn
<devyn>
whitequark: ubuntu is using systemd? I thought they were still stuck with upstart because they spent all that time developing it
<whitequark>
devyn: I wish
<whitequark>
I think they either switched to systemd or will do
<whitequark>
upstart is like a thousand fucking times better than systemd
<devyn>
well, systemd is becoming the de facto standard... it doesn't really matter that it's not as good, because just having things be a little more standard is nice
<whitequark>
which isn't to say that systemd could not be a good init, it's just that it has a complete crackhead developing it
<whitequark>
devyn: systemv was a de facto standard
<whitequark>
and systemv isn't that bad either
<whitequark>
when you compare it to systemd.
<devyn>
it kinda is
<whitequark>
systemv is transparent, which is all that matters
<whitequark>
cuttle: (linus & git) for example that
<cuttle>
whitequark: ?
<devyn>
the kernel uses a mailing list workflow, as well, which is actually one of the core features of Git that no one really uses except the kernel people
<whitequark>
more centrality. github would also break just about every other established kernel convention, such as: using kernel mailing lists which everyone reads; using kernel's code and docs and mail formatting rules; ...
<whitequark>
github workflow is good for small projects run by enthusiasts without any established workflow of their own
<whitequark>
it's not good at all for something big
<devyn>
it excels at adding a bit of organization to normally disorganized things, which is why it's good
<devyn>
but the amount of organization it adds really isn't all that great
<whitequark>
that.
<whitequark>
also, just the fact that it is simply *different* from an established kernel workflow is enough
<cuttle>
yeah i think most of linux-on-the-desktop's problems stem from two things:
<cuttle>
decentralization
<cuttle>
people who don't know shit about ui design/real people
<devyn>
though the kernel workflow is becoming a bit more modern, what with making releases much more frequently and such
<whitequark>
devyn: lolwhat?
<purr>
lolwhat
<devyn>
whitequark: lol
<devyn>
I just mean'
<whitequark>
it's been like that since 2.4, maybe 2.2
<whitequark>
and maybe even earlier, I didn't check
<devyn>
ok well I recall reading something where it was a bit of a clusterfuck to put out a release
<devyn>
dunno when it was from
<devyn>
lol
<devyn>
cuttle: but that's just open source in general, because it is made up of real people, and you don't have to have any qualifications whatsoever to release something
<cuttle>
all right i've got to get a lot of *something* done today
<cuttle>
devyn: sure
<cuttle>
devyn: i just mean, that's why osx is so much better
<whitequark>
devyn: you sure do
<cuttle>
devyn: because it's centralized and handled by people who know what the fuck they're doing
<devyn>
cuttle: I'm not saying that these people don't know what the fuck they're doing. they just all have a different idea of what they're supposed to be doing
<whitequark>
cases against your point: Qt, LLVM, Webkit/Chromium, OpenJDK, ...
<whitequark>
KDE, sorta
<cuttle>
devyn: whoever made unity didn't just have a different idea of what they're supposed to be doing
<cuttle>
they knew what they were *trying* to do
<cuttle>
and they completely fucked it up
<whitequark>
cuttle: canonical is known for an extreme case of NIH coupled with incompetence in general
<whitequark>
Unity, Mir, etc, etc
<whitequark>
really, read up on how Mir even came to exist
<whitequark>
solely because some moron from Canonical couldn't read
<devyn>
plenty of large organizations have a serious problem with NIH
<devyn>
including Apple
<whitequark>
I find Apple to have a serious problem with GPL
<whitequark>
which is, well, understandable at least
<whitequark>
NIH? don't think so
<whitequark>
webkit is a fork of KHTML, for example
<devyn>
there are some things that make me question them
<devyn>
their init system is pretty fucked IMO
<whitequark>
systemd was a clone of launchd, you know :p
<devyn>
it does a better job at it lol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
dunno never worked with launchd
<devyn>
XML, whitequark
<devyn>
XML
<devyn>
(plist files)
<devyn>
plus a pretty weird CLI
<whitequark>
xml, whatever
<devyn>
you don't just use XML like that. that's how you get things like WSDL
<whitequark>
lol
<devyn>
whitequark: you know what the worst part is? read up on OData. basically Microsoft wants to turn REST into SOAP, and has created a format called "EDMX" which describes things similarly to WSDL and is almost as horrible
<whitequark>
devyn: EEE
<whitequark>
typical microsoft
<devyn>
and I have to work with OData almost constantly :'(
<devyn>
the good thing, at least
<devyn>
is that EDMX is not actually necessary to use OData
<devyn>
you have to provide it if you are a server, I think
<devyn>
but as a client
<devyn>
who cares
<devyn>
"almost constantly" hahahaha that makes little sense
<devyn>
ames handles networking in urbit. you know how? the compiler recognizes the code in ames and replaces it with networking routines.
<devyn>
on its own, it does not and can not do networking!
<cuttle>
devyn: yeah urbit is kind of
<cuttle>
uh
<cuttle>
the guy has an inflated opinion of it
<cuttle>
i am being very negative today
<devyn>
he also seems to think that phonetic, concise names > everything
<devyn>
none of his code makes any sense because of this
<devyn>
because 99% of the time they don't even relate to what they're used for
<cuttle>
well urbit is
<cuttle>
extremely unintersting
<devyn>
he names things freaking 'bowl' and 'soba' and 'miso' and 'bud'
<devyn>
like
<devyn>
wtf
<cuttle>
hoon is as hard to read to the uninitiated as apl or j
<cuttle>
but with none of the benefits
<cuttle>
like it's not extremely concise in the same way
<devyn>
even to a hoon expert his code probably wouldn't make any sense
<devyn>
because his choice of variable names are completely random
<cuttle>
it's just a language with every stdlib function replaced with two punctuation marks with stupid phonetic names
<cuttle>
fucking dumb
<cuttle>
he
<cuttle>
he's very opinionated
<cuttle>
and almost every opinion is just plain fucking dumb
<devyn>
I've been watching #urbit just for fun, and it seems like there's maybe like one or two other people who understand Hoon... but even they don't understand his code
<cuttle>
it's like
<cuttle>
lisp data structures are fucking dumb
<cuttle>
let's build an os on them
<cuttle>
no chance at cool list parallelism
<cuttle>
only linked lists
<devyn>
only linked lists *that contain integers*
<devyn>
but obviously that's slow so let's just replace certain bits of code we recognize with opaque functions
<cuttle>
like you don't even need lists theoretically, you only need integers
<cuttle>
because you can represent any list of integers with an integer
<cuttle>
why not just jet that
<devyn>
oh but he'd say that's too esoteric and Nock obviously isn't
<devyn>
right? :p
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
blub jetting
<cuttle>
he talks like a conspiracy theorist
<cuttle>
lots and lost of broad opinionated statements
<cuttle>
with no backup
<devyn>
"Nock can't make Unix system calls" unless you replace code that doesn't make Unix system calls with opaque code that does
<devyn>
which he does
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
well i like hiding unix system calls
<cuttle>
because i like the potential for a system to be eventually on its own architecture
<devyn>
except his system assumes Unix in so many ways
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
it's fucking dumb
<devyn>
that said he has some neat ideas when it comes to the actual network structure of the thing
<whitequark>
"he's very opinionated, and almost every opinion is just plain fucking dumb" haha
<devyn>
the way he has it set up is essentially social computing on a global scale
<devyn>
and it's actually pretty neat
<devyn>
and it would be good if not for all of the shit under it
<cuttle>
haha yeah
<cuttle>
i haven't settled on the concrete details of tempus's networking
<cuttle>
because i want it to be very well thought out
<devyn>
cuttle: anyway rms is a pretty weird guy
<cuttle>
he's exactly the kind of person i avoid
<whitequark>
why did we suddenly start to talk about rms
<devyn>
which is probably more enjoyable than actually reading it
<whitequark>
"slim thighs curled under me" um
<whitequark>
what
<devyn>
I'm killing myself laughing
<whitequark>
"I'm a panda bear, my name is Snooflanti-tatuna but you can call me Snoofles."
<whitequark>
WHAT
<devyn>
they have sex
<devyn>
-tatuna because it sounds asian, obviously
<whitequark>
"she got struck by a bolt of lightning"
<whitequark>
aaaargh
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
"and the tears were falling down my face like a tepid summer rain of misery and woe."
<devyn>
wow A+ descriptive language
<whitequark>
"ivory gold hair" I don't even
<devyn>
hahaha
<devyn>
ivory gold
<devyn>
that's nice
<whitequark>
"E cup"
<whitequark>
does she even know
<devyn>
"I'm so skinny but I have massive boobs" ← hollywood's influence on girls at its finest
<whitequark>
"throbbing gigglestick" *sob*
<whitequark>
I'm so going to use it sometimes
<whitequark>
"throbbing lavender man-fruit thing" WHAT
<devyn>
I don't get the lavender part
<devyn>
well
<devyn>
I guess
<devyn>
huh.
<whitequark>
you know, the thing which bothers me there most
<whitequark>
is a combination of "his sharp erection and deadly cold body"
<whitequark>
I mean, apart from the fact that something without a working circulatory system could not have an erection at all,
<devyn>
cold body? no... but I heard somewhere that it's actually quite common right after someone dies
<whitequark>
there is also the question of an advantage to vampires being able to reproduce, whatever that means
<whitequark>
hmm
<devyn>
not that she'd know that
<whitequark>
you're totally right, but that would be completely one-time
<whitequark>
the question of vampire physiology really drives me mad.
<whitequark>
for example, what are their biological classification? I would guess a life stage, but how does that coexist with being contagious? how do they cope with oxidative stress? what about immune system? reproduction? has anyone seen a pregnant vampire?
<whitequark>
by the way, I've read a vampire tetralogy by a belarussian writer in her twenties... it was surprisingly good
<whitequark>
written before all the mad craze, before twilight too
<devyn>
I'm not sure vampires do reproduce
<devyn>
I think it's more like a parasite
<whitequark>
except for the completely obvious romantic line, it had a nice story and generally was sensibly written. I've read it, I think, three times. maybe should re-read, that'd bring back memories
<whitequark>
pretty sure it's not in english, only in polish and russian
<whitequark>
parasite? that would be a pretty extreme case of parasitism
<whitequark>
I mean, a parasite taking over the host's CNS is not unheard of, but surely not to this level
<devyn>
a) it's fictional, and b) it's not entirely impossible
<whitequark>
well... how could it unrealistically happen? I'd expect some virus-like pathogen
<whitequark>
which brings up another question: if a virus mutilates the DNA so it barely resembles the original, is it a different species?
<whitequark>
this is more practical than you could think; a laboratory strain of human cells, HeLa, is exactly that
<devyn>
lamarckian evolution?
<devyn>
kind of?
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
sorta?..
<whitequark>
I'm not sure it's evolution
<whitequark>
it's just the definition of a species
<whitequark>
"viable offspring" yadda yadda. the HeLa strain in question is somatic cells, but a) you can (likely) make totipotent cells out of somatic cells, b) you can definitely say that if a somatic cell line has a different *number of chromosomes* it's definitely not compatible
<whitequark>
huh
<devyn>
yeah, I haven't really gotten to the point where I've felt the desire to study biology at all
<devyn>
probably will eventually
<whitequark>
imagine a really bad enterprise system with over 50 years of legacy code
<whitequark>
now make it 500 million years of legacy code
<whitequark>
that's how you look from inside.
<whitequark>
there's some really fancy stuff
<devyn>
I figured as much
<whitequark>
for example, the enzyme which replicates your DNA is spinning like crazy. 6K RPM IIRC
<whitequark>
ATPases do that too
<devyn>
also the whole thing is probably just hack after hack
<whitequark>
it literally consists of hacks
<whitequark>
entirely.
<devyn>
yep
<whitequark>
there's also various funny stuff like retrotransposones
<whitequark>
it's self-catalytic fragments of DNA whose only purpose is to replicate themselves in your genome
<whitequark>
most of your genome consists of them.
<devyn>
that sounds very useless
<whitequark>
it is
<devyn>
but makes sense
<whitequark>
but it's not an evolutionary disadvantage so it stays
<devyn>
something like that inevitably comes from chaos
<whitequark>
or maybe they play some role in the cell function after all. no one really knows.
<devyn>
that Tron: Legacy bit is really quite interesting
<whitequark>
I've glanced over it
<whitequark>
wait
<whitequark>
you said you don't really watch anime, so how come you know death note?
<devyn>
huh? I do watch anime, I just don't really actively seek it out... when I'm recommended a series, I watch it, and generally enjoy it
<devyn>
I think that's a good way to do it
<whitequark>
so like a normal person then
<devyn>
pretty much
<devyn>
as opposed to people who literally hunt down and watch "all the animes!"
<devyn>
I haven't actually watched Death Note yet
<devyn>
it sounded kinda interesting and kinda not
<whitequark>
I'd not recommend it
<devyn>
good
<devyn>
popular does not always mean good
<whitequark>
it was the first thing ever I watched, I think in 9th grade. basically lots of teenage drama and, to the end of it, mind screw
<whitequark>
and really, really, really bad gambits
<devyn>
whitequark: okay, I'm gonna go to bed now. it's 1am here, and I've gotta be up around 6:30
<whitequark>
devyn: also re lavender: it's both the flover/flavor and color, I guess she did mean the color
<whitequark>
though that makes for an equally disturbing mental image
<purr>
<Nuck> I knew you looked famished for dick.
<purr>
<darkf> no you're bad for other reasons
yorick has joined #elliottcable
<purr>
<Benvie> cool thing is that es6 makes most templating engines obsolete
fwg has joined #elliottcable
brr has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
brr has joined #elliottcable
Sgeo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fwg has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
fwg has joined #elliottcable
PragCypher has joined #elliottcable
fwg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
prophile has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
prophile has joined #elliottcable
yorick has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
yorick has joined #elliottcable
alexgordon has joined #elliottcable
fwg has joined #elliottcable
alexgordon has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
<purr>
<joelteon> barack obama is dead?
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
<purr>
<alexgordon> micahjohnston is such a rebel, bitches love rebels
eligrey has quit [Client Quit]
<joelteon>
guys guys guess what
eligrey has joined #elliottcable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
guys what
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
7:08 PM <+cuttle> ubuntu is the middle ground that fails to satisfy either camp
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
7:39 PM <+devyn> irrelevant
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
7:39 PM <+devyn> why are you a cuttlefish
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
2:52 AM <+whitequark> imagine a really bad enterprise system with over 50 years of legacy code
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
2:52 AM <+whitequark> that's how you look from inside.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
2:52 AM <+whitequark> now make it 500 million years of legacy code
cloudhead has joined #elliottcable
<joelteon>
well
<joelteon>
i'm a full time employee now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh?
<joelteon>
yes
brr has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
brr has joined #elliottcable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
3
<vil>
why three
<vil>
also hi
<prophile>
CALL THE SCHOOLMASTER
* vil
pokes ELLIOTTCABLE
<vil>
hi prophile
<prophile>
hi vil
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Because programmers are irrationally obsessed with powers of two.
<vil>
haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Three makes *the most sense*, in every way.
<vil>
go on
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- the usual complaint about two is that it looks too small; doesn't offer enough visual discrimination
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- and four tabs leads to tilting towers of right-leaning code
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Three is the perfect middle ground.
<vil>
I agree with two being too small, definitely
<vil>
hmmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
To boot, this means that JavaScript and C comments' textual content align to a tab stop,
<vil>
this is true
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
// like this, with
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
// indented content *in* comments
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
/* same works with blocks */
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
thirdly, this allows comma-first style, *without* making comma-started lines visually indistinguishable from out dented lines, by putting space-comma-space
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
foo = [
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
, abc
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
, def
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
].filter …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've got more
<prophile>
I like to right-align my code because...
<vil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I think you've convinced me to try it
cloudhead has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<joelteon>
what's two te the twoth
<joelteon>
dude there is NOTHING more glorious than running brew update after a week
<joelteon>
or pacman -Syyu
<joelteon>
etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
prophile: you really want the break-down on that one, as well? (=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
vil: sorry, was walking; I've got more ;)
<vil>
by all means
<vil>
I'm fighting with VirtualBox
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what about those quotes?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: I've started emulating cuttle / cuttlebone.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
qft'ing E'ERYT'NG.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
thoughts on HaLVM and openmirage, everyone?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as for right-aligned:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
as with everything else, it's a trade-off.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
threesp indentation's only negatives are basically “editor support is inferior, and is unexpected to some people”; they aren't nearly enough to out-weigh the positives in any situation I've seen.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
right-alignment of certain chunks of code, however, has more meaningful downsides:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- creating lots of work and fucking up the diffs anytime you change the width of your code (I never see this as much of an issue, but it's one that always gets brought up when someone sees my right-alignment bits),
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- breaking the eye-following of ragged-right-edge of left-aligned code (although, IMO, this is nearly *never* useful in practice)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- losing you plenty of negative space in the code, by breaking up the most prevalent source of negative space (right-hand margin) with intermittent interjections,
alexgordon has joined #elliottcable
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and, of course, same as threesp, editor-support and POLS concerns
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
here, the primary benefit, to be balanced against *all* of those, is fairly simple, but very important.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
providing another sharp visual-line to draw the eye along, *in addition* to the first (the left-hand-side.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we're already compounding *many* types of desired-skimmable meta-information into the single existing visual-line (function-names and assignments in archaic languages, indentation to convey depth during that scan, more modern comma-first to convey enumeration of list-items …), which definitely shows that we have *need* of more skimmable constructs,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and the right-hand margin provides that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Personally, I usually find these concerns balance out *especially* favorably in one particular case:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
modular exports in things like Node or Ruby, where there's <code that doesn't go out> and <code that goes out>, and that the distinction there is important.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
to differentiate `my_module.foo = blahblahblahblah` and a local `foo = blahblahblahblah`, I often do the following:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<indent to right-hand-margin> my_module.foo =
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
foo = blahblahblahblah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that way, *all* assignments are uniform, along the left-hand margin … and yet, we have an easily-skimmable overview of the *exported* objects and methods along the right.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's a bit like a skip-list: if we're looking for a function, and don't know where it is, we use the left-hand index, looking for an assignment that creates “bar()”;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but if we know that function is called by a *consumer*, then we can skip that entire mess, and get in the visual express-lane on the right-hand-side.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes, I know I'm insane. fuck off and die.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
wanders off
<vil>
oh wow
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
otters, tell us about your new job
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
joelteon*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: around?
<joelteon>
well, it's the same as the old one, but i get a 50% raise and i don't have to clock on anymore
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<cuttle>
hi
<purr>
cuttle: hi!
<cuttle>
<3 vampire weekend
<purr>
Let it be known that cuttle hearts vampire weekend.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
meet him at Realtime. he's pretty neat.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: yep. Like I said, one of the issues with all of my approaches, including that one, is editor support.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
these sorts of things are why I was advocating a ‘design-language’ for code, way-back-when
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
something that editors, preprocessors, and go-fmt like restylers could all use to *show* you beautiful-code.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to do something like that with Paws' code-less code: create some sort of viewer/editor to *show* you code, without you *writing* code. And it could show you code in any style that the viewer wanted.
<cuttle>
i've wanted to have direct-ast editing for a long time
<cuttle>
with like nice ways to edit it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it exists.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
look into Lisping.app for iOS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
on the iPad, it's … really, really innovative.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not hugely usable, and far from perfect; but they've done a very good job of taking some of these abstract ideas, and making them pragmatically usable.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's a first step. A first-step, that I like.
<cuttle>
cool
<cuttle>
WE KNOW THE FIRE WAITS UNBELIEVERS
<cuttle>
ALL OF THE SINNERS THE SAME
<cuttle>
GIRL YOU AND I WOULD DIE UNBELIEVERS BOUND TO THE TRACKS OF A TRAIN
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you know, taking it beyond arguing about 2 vs 4 spaces for indentation, or K&R vs OTB.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
for braces*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
unrelated, Maverick's Safari's Web Inspector is fucking beautiful. *Huge* step up from, well, anything ever.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Very reminiscent of Instruments.app.
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: my grand vision for the tempus architecture is to have *waaaay* less text and a lot more actual data
<cuttle>
if every program shares a type system
<cuttle>
then you can bundle a manifest with transferred data
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: (lisping) ooooh, yet another application which says "writing source is hard, let's use graphics", except this time it's because of intrinsic weaknesses of consume-only tablets
<cuttle>
or whatever
<whitequark>
even if it *is* useful, I fail to see how exactly it is innovative
<whitequark>
that's been around from, like, 1995.
<cuttle>
whitequark: alexgordon said it well
<alexgordon>
I did?
<alexgordon>
what did I say
<cuttle>
you said someting like
<cuttle>
most visual programming has been trying to just
<cuttle>
take programming as it is
<cuttle>
and stick a gui on it
<cuttle>
because bitches love guis
<cuttle>
but you could have actual new, innovative visual ways of presenting information
<cuttle>
and ways of editing
<cuttle>
that aren't just
<cuttle>
insert node
<cuttle>
drag
<cuttle>
shit
<whitequark>
like smalltalk? :D
<alexgordon>
cuttle: yeah pretty much
<cuttle>
whitequark: not really
<cuttle>
i mean smalltalk is like
<alexgordon>
mathematica is a good example of visual programming
<cuttle>
edit one thing at a time in baby windows
<cuttle>
right?
<alexgordon>
it's still mainly typing
<whitequark>
cuttle: um, no
<alexgordon>
but you can say BOOM A GRAPH
<alexgordon>
or BOOM MAKE THAT VARIABLE A SLIDER
<alexgordon>
etc
<whitequark>
alexgordon: mathematica is very much DSL though
<alexgordon>
if the language itself was a bit nicer it would be great
<alexgordon>
whitequark: yeah, well it's a lisp
<whitequark>
you can have good GUIs for e.g. industrial control apps, for much the same reasons
<whitequark>
but!
<whitequark>
even in those industrial control applications, have you seen what becomes of them when you have 1000s of sensors or presentations?
<whitequark>
right
<whitequark>
gigantic entangled ball of fur.
<whitequark>
I'm sorry to say that
<alexgordon>
I've watched my mum use a mouse: it's not faster than typing. Can't accept that the future of programming is more mousing/touching
<whitequark>
but it doesn't fucking scale
<whitequark>
and I even can say why!
<whitequark>
because visual representation artifically constraints the abstractions you can use to "plane, figures, lines"
<cuttle>
yeah whitequark is basically using proof by lack of imagination
<whitequark>
NAVARR: BECAUSE HE'S EC
<alexgordon>
C is amazing, they all look equal
<alexgordon>
in the pie chart
<alexgordon>
but they're not
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we can *add* visual abstractions, and better yet, *even other things*.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah agreed
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm off for 10 minutes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Point is not “let's make visual abstractions.” Point is, “let's make other-than-text abstractions.” </discussion>
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: fly safe sexypants
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: that piecharts graph is excellent.
<alexgordon>
yeah
<alexgordon>
gonna tweet it
erinspice has joined #elliottcable
<erinspice>
ohai
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
DAMN
<alexgordon>
hi erinspice
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
awesome, it's erin
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi guys.
<erinspice>
lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erin's an older friend of mine than *any* of you.
<erinspice>
o/
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which is surprising, 'cause micahs' known me a pretty-damn-long time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erinspice: you want an http://irccloud.com invite? freenode's webchat sucks.
<erinspice>
sure
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: how long have you known micah?!
<cuttle>
~5yrs?
<alexgordon>
so since you were 13?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“sekkusu shinai shokogun”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erinspice: hit me with your current e-mail
<erinspice>
erinspiceland at gmail
<erinspice>
I cannot stay long though. I have codes to write.
* ELLIOTTCABLE
nods
<erinspice>
Can't concentrate today.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
irccloud! lurk! :D
<erinspice>
kk
<alexgordon>
why is irccloud in perpetual beta?
<vil>
something always has to be
<cuttle>
alexgordon: i think so actually
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<vil>
gmail isn't anymore, so
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol beta
<cuttle>
was in 2008 or so i believe
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
irccloud is more ‘dead’ than ‘in beta’ afaict
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you should buy it and turn it round!
<alexgordon>
god KNOWS you're rich enough
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah, when I met cuttle, he *was* like, thirteen-turning-fourteen
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol shaddup alexgordon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we have new bees present, mustn't scare them off
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-34 ponies @ erinspice
<cuttle>
no, december 2009
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
damnit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: I knew you before that.
<cuttle>
that was the irc
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I didn't meet you because of Paws, fairly sure of that.
<cuttle>
I am 100% sure that you did
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah, but I already knew you mildly, from somewhere.
<cuttle>
devyn said one day
<cuttle>
"this guy i know's making a language"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh my god, really?
<cuttle>
directed me to the wave
<cuttle>
that was when we met
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the Wave was early december 2009, yep
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Paws was conceived somewhere from December 9th to 15th, at the Hurricane Cafe in Seattle (right here: http://ell.io/iZtrg)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I created the Wave shortly thereafter, because I was fairly obsessed with Google Wave at the time.
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so, re visual programming.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
mmhmm?
<whitequark>
I'd say this really really depends on definition, because:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
when we speak in here, we're using words to refer to new paradigms of programming. long story short.
<whitequark>
1) if you treat "visual programming" like "functional programming", that is, "functional programming is a paradigm centered around manipulating recursive, mostly immutable data structures with first-class functions",
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we're *not* talking about Scratch when we say ‘visual programming,’ and we're *not* talking about Haskell when we say ‘functional programming.’
<whitequark>
then "visual programming" is exactly what I mean, and it's not very practical. "Haskell" not practical.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we're talking about generally classes of innovations, including un-had-as-of-yet ones that *may* fit into that class.
<whitequark>
whereas if we look at Ruby, then, well, it's not functional, and just first-class functions are still not functional, but they're damn useful.
<alexgordon>
I think the problem is
<whitequark>
Why this matters:
<alexgordon>
it should not be called "visual programming"
<KillerX>
re: source code styling, I'm firmly of the opinion that programmers should pick whatever style they like, and we should just have tools that lint and reformat code before it's checked in to a common repository. gofmt does a good job at this.
<alexgordon>
it should be called "visual editing"
<whitequark>
if you stop treating visual programming (X programming) as a self-centered paradigm on its own,
<alexgordon>
the visualness is a property of the EDITOR. the language is irrelevant
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
disagree, alexgordon
<cuttle>
alexgordon: well, also the syntax
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
language can *leverage* the presence of that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
for instance:
<cuttle>
alexgordon: if the syntax is defined on a textual level vs an ast level
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if an editor were incapable of whitespace,
<whitequark>
then literally nothing prevents you from doing "require 'visual'" in Ruby, and it would work Just As Well as within your own language developed specifically for it,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then languages would be substantially difficult.
<alexgordon>
cuttle: "ast level" syntax is stupid
<whitequark>
just like you can manipulate recursive structures with first-class functions in Ruby Just As Well as in, say, Lisp.
<alexgordon>
cuttle: if your language doesn't work with basic unix diff then it's no good to anybody
<alexgordon>
this is why nobody likes XIBs :P
<whitequark>
alexgordon: wrong
<whitequark>
you can have AST-level diff, it's popular on its own, and it's *good*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
god.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
guys.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
discussion.
<whitequark>
I mean, AST-level merging of Java/C# code, etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is a waste of life.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: not in bsd diff!
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: respond to me.
<alexgordon>
I'm saying, it has to work with unix tools
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
happy birthday let's change the world
<alexgordon>
storing programs as anything other than plain text with a traditional grammar is stupid
<whitequark>
screw unix tools, I'm interested in what do you mean by visual programming which is also not crap
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i have had some Thoughts
<whitequark>
because I don't see that
<cuttle>
want to hear them?
<whitequark>
at all.
<cuttle>
alexgordon: why?
<cuttle>
alexgordon: why is that stupid
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm with alexgordon here, slightly.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
UNIX is a *huge, huge, huge* consideration.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but there's no reason our ‘visual’ editing system,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and let's assume for the sake of my argument that herein I'm discussing <anything that isn't plain-text-traditional-grammar>,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
can't have a serialization-to-text.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
*then*,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we can stop worrying about making the text easy to edit,
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: goddamnit.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and *only* worry about making it ‘easy-to-diff.’ (so to speak.)
<whitequark>
explain what your 'visual' editing system *is*.
<whitequark>
because right now
<whitequark>
I can only *assume* it based on existing systems
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(more accurately, easy-to-consume as a systematic API for the data-structure.)
<whitequark>
and they're all crap.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hahahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't have one!
<whitequark>
explain your fucking ideas!
<whitequark>
just saying 'visual' doesn't immediately make it perfect!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
to be able to participate very well in discussions in this channel, you've gotta develop a taste for conceptual abstraction.
<cuttle>
what ELLIOTTCABLE is saying is that
<cuttle>
you need to stop using proof by lack of imagination
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
We've all developed to a tee the ability to *discuss* insanities in a vacuum from the object-system; and the ability to discuss the high-level ‘givens’ and consequences of “generic, higher-level abstracted programming environments” without getting into a single set of specifics of what those might be.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Think of the way we talk, as C++ macros instead of CPP. It's just discussion-level abstraction.
<whitequark>
what ELLIOTTCABLE is saying is some patronizing bullshit. if he says paradigm X is good, I want to hear examples.
<whitequark>
if he has zero examples, and so far he has zero of *any* examples,
<whitequark>
that's just pointless.
<whitequark>
we can't discuss it, we can't even check if we're talking about remotely same thing.
<cuttle>
whitequark: turing and godel would disagree
<cuttle>
they did math about things there were few or no examples of
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I have this problem with my girlfriend *every* *single* *day*, and it's The Worst Thing™.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It causes nearly every single problem in our relationship.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I discuss a concept at a higher level. I lay out the givens, and draw a conclusion from those givens.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Chelsea fails to understand the concept I'm laying out, and requires some sort of analogy or example.
<whitequark>
cuttle: there's a difference though. turing and godel never said what they were doing was better than existing stuff, or something. they just explored the space of available problems.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *give* some sort of example of the problem or innovation I'm trying to discuss;
<cuttle>
whitequark: uuuhh same with us
<cuttle>
whitequark: we never said "the things i don't have examples of are *better*"
<cuttle>
whitequark: but you are conclusively saying that they *can't* be better
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that example is inherently flawed *by definition*, because no specific single example can cover all possible angles of the general class of examples it belongs to (which is what I am instead discussing),
<cuttle>
refusing to explore
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so, where is those givens and those conclusions?
<whitequark>
I literally seen one thing from you: "visual programming is cool", in a nutshell.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then *that individual example* is torn-into and argued (by both her and I), instead of the general class which I'd originally brought up for some good reason.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Thus, the original thing (problem, innovation, whatever) brought up to be discussed in a productive manner, thus improving our lives and our relationship in some way,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is never discussed, never productively improved.
<whitequark>
and you're just reiterating it in various ways, and saying how I'm wrong by not liking that specific phrase, and so on, and so on
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and life goes on sucking.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
</example™>
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
never said it's cool.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not once.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
could be *zero* cool applications of non-plain-text-ual programming.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
*zero.*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which is what you're positing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
*all* we're doing here, is offering arguments to the contrary of that,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rather,
<whitequark>
ok, that's better, but it's still not at all what I'm talking about
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
reasoning why there *may be* *more than zero* such innovations.
<whitequark>
the problem is
<whitequark>
that I've NO FUCKING IDEA what do you mean by visual programming
* ELLIOTTCABLE
nods
<whitequark>
and this is why any discussion is pointless
<whitequark>
so
<whitequark>
explain what it is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we're done with “visual programming.” moving on from that phrase, because obviously unproductive.
<whitequark>
explain the concept.
<whitequark>
however is it named.
<cuttle>
a way of inputting, storing, and/or viewing "code"
<whitequark>
no, not cuttle, ec.
<cuttle>
that is not keyboards, ascii/unicode, and text on a screen
<cuttle>
or maybe keyboards
<whitequark>
enough broken phones already.
<cuttle>
but not typing in character by character
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Okay. I'll give you five examples, straight off the top of my head with no preconception on my part.
<cuttle>
if you nitpick these i will find you in real life and physically torture you
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- programming with music. Design a language where the instructions are based in quantified relationships between melody, rhythm, etceteras; and then have the ‘programmer’ play an instrument or even hum, to ‘write code.’ The code is executed immediately, and not stored in any form.
<whitequark>
(this is pretty cool actually. *listening*)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
the same way that a generalized function in mathematics can instead be conveyed to a viewer/creator with particular inputs and a particular output, instead of higher-level variables left unfilled, and then those inputs can be randomized or connected to a visual graph the user is dragging a selector along or something)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- templating/macros with randomness. Instead of requiring the programmer to draw a set of conclusions from some sort of placeholder (hello <T>, C++.), have the interaction-system the programmer uses dynamically construct a set of *real* values, given a particular randomized input, that changes as the programmer hovers their hand over a sensor (think of it in
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- flow-control by actual flow. user sculpts a structure, a ‘program’, in clay, and then places it on a pedestal; a three-dimensional scanner rotates the model and reads it in. then data is placed in a framework that provides it pseudo-physics approximations of water-flow, and the data is allowed to follow those rules and cascade through/down the physical
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
up and out of relatively simple physical constructs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
structure's digital representation, with a real-time read-out to the sculptor-programmer. a combination of physical, structural manipulations; and post-processing in a meta-editor that allows properties and instructions to be attached to particular aspects of the computer's post-scan representation of the model, allows for more powerful programs to be drawn
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- debugging by emotion. user wears and Emotiv or similar EEG-type output; and reasonable assumptions are made about their emotional state by the information obtained thereby. evolutionary algorithms generate instructions and constantly refine output based on the user's pleasure or displeasure on the previous iterations' results.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- traditional programming at the local level, with what *you've* specifically been calling “visual programming” at the structural level. write ‘functions’ and simple procedural instructions in textual editors, that are then linked and organized in a three-dimensional visual space, with visual tools.
<whitequark>
so. this is much, much better, because I now have at least *some* idea of what you're talking about.
<whitequark>
now the most important question.
<whitequark>
what do *you* expect of the discussion of the concept?
<whitequark>
there's probably a lot of ways I can talk about this, and 99.9% of them are boring. I'm interested in the 0.1% of unboring ones.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
expect of the discussion? the entire point of talking through things like this in a private, synchronous setting like this room (very different from talking through them in a public setting, such as a blog post). boils down to two points:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
1. improves our individual representations of a concept and the familiarity thereof (i.e. making each of us, individually, more likely to *think* in terms of these innovations in the future, and improving the chances of our individual outputs being more innovative in the particular way being discussed; changing our respective *expectations* of technology in
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this form)
<yorickpeterse>
Ah, visual learning/programming
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sorry, multitasking
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
2. reduces the deltas between our respective individual views on one-another, and the actual mind-states thereof (i.e. making us understand one-another better for future discussions of the innovations we *do* bring up, and thus allowing *those* discussions to be more formidable and productive)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ex.:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
1. thanks to micah's commentary in this discussion, *my* innovations with respect to ‘visual-ish programming’ that we've been discussing will be more interesting,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and 2. when I bring those ideas back and discuss them, micah, alex, and you will all *better understand me* as I try to convey the innovations therein.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
unrelated: looking up the Hurricane on Google Maps to link it above, made me miss it immensely.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also, miss that period of my life. Being so obsessed with someone to make Great Gestures like Paws for them. Those feels.
<erinspice>
Your talk of programming with music makes me miss music.
* erinspice
is classically trained
<cuttle>
music is the greatest
* cuttle
is half-assically trained
* cuttle
just made up that term
* yorickpeterse
is potty trained
<erinspice>
it is amusing. Keep it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erinspice: I, as well
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erinspice, you and cuttle will get along quite well, from what I recall. (=
<purr>
hah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erinspice: invite came through?
<cuttle>
erinspice: tweeter?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not very much, unfortunately
<cuttle>
followed anyway :p
<erinspice>
cuttle: same
<cuttle>
sweet
<erinspice>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yep
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
erinspice: adding you to @_ELLIOTTCABLE/regulars, too
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'cause <3
<joelteon>
i'm classically trained too
<vil>
wow, 43 people in here right now
<joelteon>
does that mean i have a big penis
<joelteon>
because i'll totally accept that
<vil>
joelteon: do you use it to play?
<vil>
because otherwise I'm not sure they're connected
<joelteon>
yes
<vil>
oh that's fine then
rckts has joined #elliottcable
rckts has joined #elliottcable
rckts has quit [Changing host]
rckts has joined #elliottcable
<rckts>
hey guys
<vil>
rckts!
<cuttle>
hi rckts
<cuttle>
vil: good glitch hop
<vil>
cuttle: Haywyre is so amazing
<vil>
found him last night
<cuttle>
i love the big ol synth chord stabs
<cuttle>
the jazzy ones
<rckts>
@ work rn so my messages will be pretty scattered lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
stop linking me shit that I can't shuffle, okay?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *hate* that. Huge pet peeve.
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: no, the trappy and ew was the next track
<vil>
that's the only place that one track is yet
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: that it played randomly
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Let me throw this down right now, so I can get it out of the way:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Indie music is a *fucking terrible* UX, and until that changes, I'm not going to give a flying shit, no matter *how* good the music is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If I have to go to a separate, special, site, JUST TO PLAY YOUR ONE SONG,
<vil>
hahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then I can NEVER PLAY IT AGAIN WITHOUT VISITING THAT SITE AGAIN,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fuck right off and die in a pool of acid
<vil>
that one will be on Rdio soon I'm sure
<vil>
but it literally came out 23 hours ago
<cuttle>
well
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't care if you have to cut your testicles off and then lather the vicinity of your now-mutiliated crotch with acid,
<cuttle>
people get basically no money from rdio and spotify
<cuttle>
so
<vil>
^
<cuttle>
i mean
<cuttle>
i know what you're going to say
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you STILL need to sign up with iTunes, Rdio, *and* Spotify,
<cuttle>
but that's the facts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
before you're any less than a FUCKING HORRIBLE PERSON.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's not about the money.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's about the coverage.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Spotify and Rdio are ways for me to *pay* these *big, asshole companies* to pirate music for me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I *know* this, and I *don't care*, because they have excellent UXes for me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So, artists, listen up: go out of your way, to allow me to pirate your music *easily* through Spotify, Rdio, or iTunes Radio, OR I WON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MUSIC.
<cuttle>
sure but coverage has to lead to something
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And this is far more important than it sounds, because it applies to 99.999% of anyone, ever,
<cuttle>
not everyone can make money from solely live shows etc.
<cuttle>
idk
<cuttle>
it's just not that morally simple
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and the *only way* that the majority of people who might *actually* pay for your music, are going to hear about your music, is if you cater to us 99% and our UX.
erinspice_ has joined #elliottcable
erinspice has quit [Quit: Page closed]
erinspice_ is now known as erinspice
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'll write a blog post about this someday, I suppose. *shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It's not about it being morally simple, but it's the reality.
<cuttle>
tons of blog posts have been written about this by people who know more than you do
<cuttle>
yes I know exactly what you're saying
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Perhaps the reality is that music is simply an untenable way to make money and support a life, without Really Horrible Hacks (signing up with big, soul-sucking firms … selling out your musical style … etcetcetc)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's not my problem.
<cuttle>
regardless of morality people are pirating and streaming
<cuttle>
that is not newsd
<cuttle>
news
<cuttle>
to the majority of people in the music industry
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, no
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this wouldn't be a post *for* people in the music industry.
<cuttle>
but the thing is
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it'd be *for* people who link me soundcloud. ಠ_ಠ.
<cuttle>
you want more music to be made
<cuttle>
so maybe you'd better pitch in
<cuttle>
well
<cuttle>
most things on soundcloud
<cuttle>
are sketches or newly made tracks
<cuttle>
that haven't been released in a way that would let them be on spotify yet
<cuttle>
soundcloud is a place to kick ideas up
<cuttle>
not to officially release tracks
<cuttle>
so i guess if it's *really* that inconvenient for you, restrict yourself to the selections that are on streaming services
<cuttle>
but like don't get mad at people for giving you soundcloud links
<cuttle>
that's fucking wack
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
aren't people “on soundcloud” implicitly ‘in the music industry’ as you put it earlier?
<cuttle>
sure
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Shouldn't they *know* better than to think that <N person>, that they could link music to, will give a flying shit?
<cuttle>
...
<cuttle>
well the large number of huge artists on soundcloud may be shouting into a void then
<whitequark>
(soundcloud) why don't, you know, use a bookmarklet to save the .mp3?
<cuttle>
they may be entirely wasting their time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think they're shouting into an echo chamber.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A group of people who, themselves, are in the music industry.
<cuttle>
sure well that's most indie music
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Just like software.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
open-source, GitHub, is shouting into the same kind of void.
<cuttle>
the majority of people just listen to the radio, occasionally buy kesha cds, and are only starting to use spotify and rdio
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: because then I have to use an MP3, and the point I never got to make due to cuttle's interjection,
<cuttle>
but i guarantee much more people listen on soundcloud than make on soundcloud
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: was that the only thing worse than soundcloud links being the only thing available for your ‘indue music,’ is *MP3 files* from your shitty band-website being the only thing available for your ‘indie music.’
<whitequark>
why?
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: also
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: tell that to fucking chance the rapper
<whitequark>
actually, no, not like that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no idea who that is
<whitequark>
what else can you have?
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: only way to get his two mixtapes, only thing he has out
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: is downloading zips of mp3s
<whitequark>
I've honestly no idea
<cuttle>
generating MASSIVE buzz
<cuttle>
right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sure. in select circle .
<whitequark>
that's like 100% of my music experience, in essence.
<cuttle>
well like, hip hop listeners
<cuttle>
not
<cuttle>
technology userse
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it'll never hit the massive audience it could/should, though. If it never comes on the radio, as you yourself said, a *huge* percentage of people never care;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and if it never gets put on iTunes or Spotify or Rdio, a *even huger* selection of people never care.
<cuttle>
well it's now on the radio
* ELLIOTTCABLE
nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and that's great.
<cuttle>
on non-shitty-enough hip hop stations
<cuttle>
the point is *that's how he got there*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
we all know that skill will win out. it's true.
<cuttle>
and that's how fucking radiohead released in rainbows
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
something *good enough* will overcome idiotic marketing choices.
<cuttle>
or in the case of lil b
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: oh, so itunes or spotify or rdio
<whitequark>
funny thing
<cuttle>
bombarding the internet with myspace accounts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
if you write some insanely excellent-UX software and *only* push it to GitHub,
<whitequark>
is that all of those are only ever available for US.
<cuttle>
pure tenacity will win out
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
then somebody will create binaries under the GPL and push it to the Mac App Store.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that doesn't mean it was a *good choice* or even *remotely sane* to not push it to the Mac App Store in the first place.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: what?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: Spotify wasn't even available in the U.S. for years.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: I had alexgordon buy me a U.K. debit card, so I could sign up, years early, and use it.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: actually it was gift vouchers
<alexgordon>
but yeah
<whitequark>
US/UK, two countries instead of one
<cuttle>
started out in sweden
<cuttle>
so 3 countries :P but yeah, proves your point
<whitequark>
it's tangential to the point
<whitequark>
but
<cuttle>
because at first it was only in sweden
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not sure how that's proving his point.
<whitequark>
it's funny to watch you be all like "if it's not on itunes it can gtfo", since most of the world doesn't have that and is not going to get it any time soon.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Thought his point was that “U.S. privilege is making you immune to the *actual* problems here.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which absolutely isn't the case; I'm one of the few in the U.S. who *has* experienced that particular problem.
<whitequark>
I actually wonder if I would use them if they were available here
<whitequark>
streaming services, definitely not
<whitequark>
I think in iTunes you actually own whatever you bought?
<whitequark>
and it has somewhat sane prices?
<vil>
yes
<whitequark>
cool
<vil>
no drm even
<vil>
for music anyway
<whitequark>
but you need osx or iphone, right?
<vil>
nope
<vil>
windows too
<vil>
and they're just mp4s
<whitequark>
mmm
<vil>
errr, m4a
<vil>
anyway, they can be converted easily to mp3
<whitequark>
so, aac
<vil>
from within itunes even
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
point was iTunes Radio, not iTunes-purchasing-MP4s, which is an ancient and pointless business model in the coming times.
<vil>
yep I think so
<vil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I happen to like owning things
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: screw $service, if $service requires a persistent connection.
<vil>
that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… none of the ones I use, do …
<whitequark>
um
<vil>
too many services have died in the past and left users without any of their music
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Spotify nor Rdio require a connection.
<whitequark>
how a "radio" does not ?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Spotify doesn't even require a connection *at all*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… it's not a radio …
* whitequark
sighs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you obviously don't have the slightest conception what any of these services do, which isn't your fault.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
let me explain, since I doubt you've ever taken the time to read a blog post or something summarizing the field, given that none of the related services are available in your country yet:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
you sign up, and you get *a music library* in the cloud. You can “download”/“buy” any song you hear, like, or hear about, without paying a cent beyond the subscription service.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Your entire library, just like with a huge collection of MP3 files on a RAID somewhere, is available anytime you want to hear any of it;
<whitequark>
can I take the music, burn it on a DVD, and listen to it in 100 years ?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
your entire library, if you like, can be synced down to your computer as static data, not requiring an internet collection;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
your entire library, can be synced to a phone, and listened to without internet service, in a subway, on the way to work.
<whitequark>
hm, that's pretty cool actually
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Rdio exclusively, in fact, even syncs *what you're listening to* to all of your devices, so you can switch which device or system your music is coming out of, at will, seamlessly
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
when I walk to my car, music comes out of my headphones. when I turn the ignition, Bluetooth picks it up, and it comes out of my car's stereo. When I get to work, it switches to my work machine.
<cuttle>
oh wow
<cuttle>
that's perfect
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
when I get back home in the evening, it seamlessly starts playing out of my home system.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
over Airplay from my laptop to my Apple TV.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all beautiful and effortless, like, one tap or click apiece, except for the Bluetooth, which is just an ignition-turning, no taps at all.
<whitequark>
still, the one thing I want to hear
<whitequark>
is the answer to the DVD question above.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and no, your music isn't available next year, if the system goes down.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If some obscure apocalypse conspiracy theory is more interesting to you than truly effortless, beautiful UX, day in and day out, then you're an idiot;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and more importantly, if you choose Spotify over Rdio, you *do* get that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in the Spotify case, you're welcome to treat the entire cloud-system as a “music tasting service,”
<vil>
because no music service has ever gone out of business before
* yorickpeterse
does this old thing called "Download/buy actual music that he owns"
<whitequark>
^
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and buy each individual song that you especially like, in which case you get the MP3s in your music library.
<yorickpeterse>
and since I have a Thinkpad it can survive an apocalypse
<yorickpeterse>
Take that rdio!
<vil>
yorickpeterse: lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not to mention that Spotify also supports all your pirating, Radiohead, and Soundcloud stuff, if you so wish; it acts just like iTunes, mixing MP3s in amongst your cloud music choices however you wish.
<alexgordon>
eh I just use spotify
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(it also syncs MP3s over WiFi into your mobile library, again, just like iTunes.)
<alexgordon>
if it's not there I look for nzbs...
<alexgordon>
if it's not there I buy it on amazon
<alexgordon>
if it's not there I look on itunes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I recently switched from Spotify to Rdio, but I'm mildly convinced that Spotify is the better service
<alexgordon>
if it's not there I FUCKING RAGE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Rdio is just prettier, and has *a couple* really, really nice features that Spotify is missing …
<vil>
alexgordon: sounds about right
<vil>
except I start with bandcamp
<alexgordon>
what's bandcamp?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… while Rdio is missing a *HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE* collection of fucking small but essential features that Spotify handles just fine
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ugh rdio pisses me off often, but whatever.
<alexgordon>
but I'm not going to use itunes now
<alexgordon>
I refuse
<alexgordon>
fucking DRM'd slow piece of shit
<vil>
alexgordon: bands create their own site, vast majority of money actually goes to them
<alexgordon>
amazon is drm free AND cheaper
* yorickpeterse
uses Pragha
<whitequark>
well, I guess I can always export the list from rdio or whatever, and then just get the mp3s any way I want
<whitequark>
buy them or pirate them or whatever.
<yorickpeterse>
I'll have none of your proprietary crap! *shakes cane*
<whitequark>
could probably even be automated.
<alexgordon>
vil: ah, well the people I listen to... aren't on that kind of site :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
nah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Rdio doesn't support MP3s
<vil>
alexgordon: it's not all indie as in hipster indie
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
i.e. bringing us fulllllll-circle back to my original statement:
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: as a backup
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“If I can't shuffle it, fuck you.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which sucks.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Never said it *didn't* suck.
<whitequark>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this brings me side-track into a really, really important talk given by @aral at Realtime Conf this weekend
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
really loved i
<whitequark>
well, you've convinced me to try rdio
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it*
<whitequark>
there's an android version, lemme look
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
he presented a really interesting trichotomy, and talked about why Open Source Sucks For Everything Ever and Fuck Linux™,
<erinspice>
Owning music is overrated.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
people are one of either (Consumer|Professional|Enthusiast.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(he called it ‘Enterprise,’ not professional, then took that back halfway through the talk because he realized it has a lot of baggage for us devs, as a term.)
<vil>
erinspice: music is the second most important thing in my life, and I want to own it and/or support the people who make it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Consumers don't care about stuff as much as professionals do; and professionals don't care as much as enthusiasts do.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
A dude will tinker with his old beater car that's some sort of antique ALL DAY, if he is an enthusiast for tinkering with cars,
<erinspice>
Owning is not as much fundamentally tied to support as in the past.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whereas a professional doesn't have the time, or the care, to give a shit about that, with his semi tractor. he'll just take it to somebody, and say FIX IT I NEED TO GET BACK ON THE ROAD.
<vil>
it's closer than Spotify/Rdio's systems
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
finally, the consumer won't even do that; they'll just go car-less (if they live in a city), or buy a new one, or complain, or DO NOTHING AT ALL, if it doesn't Just Work™.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
MP3s are fine for music enthusiasts.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
streaming stuff is great for the equivalent of professionals
<vil>
which I am
<vil>
(an enthusiast that is)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
those of us who need music *a lot*, and live by it, but don't have the time or care to give a shit about the artists or the state of the industry or some other crap. We just need our supply of music to get through the day.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
most people, are consumers: they'll happily listen to music if it shows up on the radio, and perhaps even talk about it to their friends, but that's damned-well just about it.
<whitequark>
that actually makes a lot of sense
<vil>
agreed
<erinspice>
indeed
<whitequark>
not about linux specifically though, if we're not talking about desktop linux, and why would we :)
<erinspice>
Desktop Linux is just fine.
<vil>
2013 is the year of desktop linux man
<erinspice>
<3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The year of desktop linux, indeed
<erinspice>
I haven't used anything else since 2001.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway
<erinspice>
y'all suck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm really sorry to jet out without giving a chance for refutal and continued interaction
<vil>
erinspice: what distro?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but I *have* to get shit done, and I've let my rant here distract me, and it's goddamn late, and I'm way behind
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
love you all <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
rckts: also, welcome back <3
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: nono, that actually made a lot of sense
<erinspice>
just vanilla Ubuntu right now
<erinspice>
peas.
<whitequark>
and there isn't much to add.
<vil>
ew unity tho
<erinspice>
nah, Gnome 3.
<vil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: <3
<vil>
oh good
<vil>
unity is horrid
<erinspice>
First thing to go.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also, whitequark, don't try rdio, unless you're doing it For Me
<erinspice>
agree
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
from everything I know about you, Spotify's a better choice
<vil>
I run OS X, but my Mac mini server is Debian
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
even if you have to hop through some hoops to get set up with it, since it's not supposed to be available in your country
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OS X and Arch, here
<erinspice>
man, I had to code on OS X once. Never again.
<vil>
Arch is next summer's project for the server
<vil>
erinspice: it's not bad once you get everything set up
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: bbbut rdio is available for android
<whitequark>
I've been told it's two neurons though, same with the textbook
<whitequark>
idk
<yorickpeterse>
yorick: where are you based?
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: hilversum
<yorickpeterse>
.... fuck off
<yorickpeterse>
You're lying
<whitequark>
what
<yorick>
I'm sorry but it's true
<yorickpeterse>
bullshit, what area of town?
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: oude haven / esso-shell gebeuren
<yorickpeterse>
...
<yorickpeterse>
this is creepy
<yorickpeterse>
I live in Hilversum too
<yorick>
oh dear
<whitequark>
now kiss!
<yorick>
sadly I'm not gay, but it would be fun
<yorickpeterse>
like, I live about 5 min away from that area
<whitequark>
yorick: never let your preference stay in the way of good times!
<yorick>
heh, couple of months ago I met someone who lived 100 m away, that was scary
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: so where do you live? :D
<yorickpeterse>
Gijsbrecht
<yorick>
ah, ugly street :D
<yorickpeterse>
meh, it serves its purpose
<yorickpeterse>
AH 50m away, all I need
* whitequark
is playing prison architect
<whitequark>
it's... very american
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: damn this is scary :D
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: the game would be too easy if you just dug a ditch and called it a gulag
<yorickpeterse>
"Prison Architect: Siberia"
<whitequark>
well I mean more like
<whitequark>
the whole "CEO of prison" thing
<yorickpeterse>
yorick: I wouldn't be surprised if we passed each other at some point in time
<whitequark>
it's not a commercial enterprise dammit
<whitequark>
or duh, executions
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: turn it into a circus
<yorickpeterse>
Cirque do prison
<whitequark>
what
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<purr>
<elliottcable> hr'd jolfing an O{S
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: monetize it
<yorickpeterse>
instead of the electric chair it would be "Death by circus lion"
<yorickpeterse>
then make people bet on how long it would take
<yorickpeterse>
(welcome back Gladiator fights)
<whitequark>
whatever you do, please, never ever talk to american congress
<yorickpeterse>
Coming back to the whole relocating thing, I can put a word in and I'm pretty sure the answer would be "HIRE HIM! *phoenix wright gesture*"
<yorickpeterse>
Though immigration *can* be a bitch at times
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. a US co-worker's application took like 4-5 months due to ~reasons~
<yorickpeterse>
Which doesn't actually prevent you from living here, and you can work in certain circumstances I believe
<yorickpeterse>
Though just not full-time if I'm not mistaken
<whitequark>
sounds good.
<yorickpeterse>
what timeframe would this be, months or at least a year from now?
* yorickpeterse
sounds like a recruiter
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: would you hire me next year? I don't know any ruby or any big data or any machine learning, though
* yorick
is not looking for a job though
<yorickpeterse>
Knowing programming and willing to learn is more than enough
<yorickpeterse>
and not using Windows
<yorickpeterse>
Then again we hand out macbooks so that's easy to solve
* yorick
uses linux.
<yorick>
I'll put linux on the macbook.
<yorickpeterse>
Same here
<yorickpeterse>
yorick: hate asking the question, but what age would you be next year?
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: 20
<yorickpeterse>
Not that it really matters but there's a difference between "kik 16" and something else
<yorickpeterse>
Ah
<yorickpeterse>
Shouldn't really be an issue me thinks, though not sure about full-time
<yorick>
yorickpeterse: it's good to hear, sometimes the "omg I can't get a job how can anyone get a job in this economy" people start sounding almost believable
<yorickpeterse>
It very much depends on the attitude, experience, etc
<yorickpeterse>
I've worked with people a decade older who didn't even know what "Object Oriented Programming" really ment
<yorickpeterse>
* meant
<yorickpeterse>
Open sauce work is often a big plus
<yorickpeterse>
and conferences
<yorickpeterse>
it's how I, and most others probably, landed their jobs
<yorick>
conferences are quite expensive a bit
<yorickpeterse>
meetups for that matter are also good