ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #ELLIOTTCABLE — “do something cool, shove it into throats, everyone thinks it's crap, then it's all amazing.” “everything else is just details.”
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: "you're not clever enough to predict the marker, especially if you think you are" ?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: basically
<KillerX>
yo ELLIOTTCABLE (<-- @anantn on twitter)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh, that's right
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
enjoying IRCcloud? ;)
<KillerX>
heh yup
<KillerX>
for how long have you had your own channel and what do you use it for?
<alexgordon>
KillerX: he uses it for seducing
<alexgordon>
children mainly
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
KillerX: tried the iOS clients? Or are you a FirefoxOS user, as an ex-mozillan?
<KillerX>
heh
<KillerX>
No I don't do it on mobile, though I do have a FirefoxOS device
<KillerX>
I can't type fast enough on my phone and my sentences are usually pretty long :)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(And this channel has existed in various incarnations for something like five or six years)
<alexgordon>
2009 I think
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Similar page, I had to swallow some capacity for typos to handle mobile IRC
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: half-ish of the original ##Paws'ers were from my previous vanity-channel. So, i've counted it as a continuation.
<alexgordon>
you had a channel before ##paws?
<alexgordon>
AND I WASN'T INVITED?!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oops.
<alexgordon>
DIE
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<purr>
<IamTash> lol wut
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<whitequark>
arrrrgh
<whitequark>
KSP is so good yet so horribly bad
<whitequark>
it's a really amazing, immersive game which could compare in addictiveness to some shitty MMO, though it's everything except
<whitequark>
and yet it consistently falls short of being the best thing ever
<whitequark>
physics? yeah, it works, except it falls apart if you have >150 parts, and it's really unstable otherwise. even gmod had better physics (havok), and that was crappy as hell
<whitequark>
astrophysics? yeah, here it is, complete with timewarp (no waiting literal 600 days before Jupiter intercept), except it only uses analytical solutions, and so doesnt solve n-body problem, and so there is no lagrange points
<whitequark>
which is totally understandable, since if it *did* solve n-body problem (which you can do fast enough on a GPU, I presume), none of the orbits would be actually stable or cyclical, and the UI for displaying all that would be a nightmare, and maneuver planning too
<whitequark>
it still sucks though in a game about spaceships
<whitequark>
aerodynamics? which aerodynamics? it's so unrealistic it's laughable. also, no real heat effects at all...
<whitequark>
automatization? there's SAS, a PID-controller-based movement stabilizer, and that's about it. which is infuriating as hell, because try to get something on a geostationary orbit without any precise controls *at all*
<whitequark>
sure, it's a simulation game, but so what? what should it simulate? I'd say having a command to burn for 5.15s on 13% throttle is completely in scope
<whitequark>
speed of light? haha
<whitequark>
so, mods kinda sorta fix some of that. you can have one which forces you to build an actual communication network which features propagation delay, you can have another one to calculate maneuvers ahead, and a bit more
<whitequark>
but they still follow the same general rule.
<whitequark>
they would be awesome if they were built in the game and integrated well, but as a loose set of parts released by different people with different goals and barely interacting with each other? hell no
<whitequark>
this may or may not be related to the fact that I'd *want* to have an, uh, reality simulator and not a game about spaceships. I dunno how much people want the same. Judging by the set of mods, pretty big amount.
<whitequark>
still. only ever simulating one spacecraft simultaneously? seriously guys? *sigh*
<whitequark>
it is just like in minecraft
<whitequark>
I got bored of digging blocks manually pretty much immediately
<whitequark>
so, there was a set of mods where you could have pipes, automatic mining/building, etc
<whitequark>
in about two days I bumped into two limits: first, speed of physics simulation, and second, the fact that you could not actually build an electric distribution network with a PID-controlled feedback loop maintaining the optimal number of running generators
<whitequark>
since then I never really opened minecraft
<whitequark>
guess it will be the same for KSP.
<whitequark>
</nerdrage>
<whitequark>
fuckit, I really wanna the matrix
<whitequark>
it's even worse that relativity and, to a lesser extent, the need for a time warp completely destroys any prospect for a collaborative space simulator
<whitequark>
(I wonder if that's why 0x10c died)
<whitequark>
also I really considered just writing that minecraft plugin
<whitequark>
but when you start writing such mods, it stops being a game and starts being an incredibly complex and elaborate way to masturbate
<whitequark>
though you could say that life in general is an incredibly elaborate way to masturbate, too
<devyn>
whitequark: I read that entire monologue and many of us share your pain
<whitequark>
ha
<whitequark>
devyn: so what do you do?
<devyn>
obviously building the Matrix would be nice
<devyn>
a virtual reality mostly like our own reality except hackable
<devyn>
but... I don't know to what degree we can even possibly emulate our own reality
<whitequark>
any appreciable level of simulation of reality would require enormously huge quantum computers
<whitequark>
I think we will have that level of tech, sometimes. Not in three lifetimes of mine.
<whitequark>
so it's more a question of "how abstract can we make things without them appearing too broken"
<whitequark>
or, alternatively
<whitequark>
"how do we raise a generation of people for whom a simulated reality is natural"
<whitequark>
and "how the fuck do we communicate with them afterwards"
<devyn>
the virtual reality doesn't necessarily have to be anywhere near perfect, or perfect relative to our own experience
<devyn>
it just has to be close enough that it's not distracting, and I think that there's actually a fair bit of room there
<whitequark>
exactly
<whitequark>
I think it's related to the complexity ceiling
<whitequark>
the fact that minecraft uses 1-meter-sized cubes pisses me off much, much less than that it has an artifical limit on how complex a structure you can build
<devyn>
definitely
<devyn>
though, which artificial limit are you talking about here?
<whitequark>
first, it only simulates chunks in radius 8 or something like that
<whitequark>
second, you cannot really extend minecraft with, uh, minecraft, you have to fall back to java and screw your butt off
<whitequark>
but mainly it's the computational limit
<devyn>
a Minecraft-like world running on a distributed network where every chunk is loaded all the time could be a way to solve that somewhat
<whitequark>
well, yes, and also no
<whitequark>
yes, because it's the only way
<whitequark>
no, because distributed systems are hell
<devyn>
then how is it yes and also no?
<whitequark>
what I mean is that it's incredibly hard to have real-time physics *and* a distributed system
<devyn>
IIRC Notch was planning to make 0x10c run everything all the time which was why it would have to be a subscription service
<devyn>
right
<whitequark>
it's a multiverse, not really a single world
<whitequark>
so it's much easier to do in a distributed way
<devyn>
can you think of a way that it might be possible?
<whitequark>
it is possible, it's just not going to react well to network delays and faults
<whitequark>
remember: network is always unreliable.
<whitequark>
this really depends on how much do you expect from this
<devyn>
infinite redundancy
<whitequark>
you probably could minimize their impact, but afaik it's a huge area full of its own research and we've barely scratched the surface yet
<devyn>
:)
<whitequark>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
my hope is that devices like the Oculus Rift will encourage more research time to be put into stuff like this
<whitequark>
it's definitely happening either way
<devyn>
there's certainly demand for it
<whitequark>
distributed, reliable physics simulations is an incredibly useful thing to be able to do
<devyn>
it's just, the closer it seems to people, the closer it actually ends up being because that in itself motivates people
<whitequark>
perhaps less so realtime, but still
<whitequark>
I don't really believe in the power of crowd for such stuff
<whitequark>
you get progress from tax dollars working on research, not thousands of excited teenagers
<devyn>
who's to say researchers aren't motivated the same way?
<devyn>
we're all human, after all
<whitequark>
researchers like their topics either way
<whitequark>
it can be a nifty VR project or some forgotten protein from an archaebacteria
<devyn>
of course, but motivation is variable even if one is very interested in the subject
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<gkatsev>
ELLIOTTCABLE: huh? they're not going to do another realtimeconf?
<gkatsev>
if that's true T_T
<joelteon>
anybody up
<devyn>
joelteon: hi
<joelteon>
hi
<purr>
joelteon: hi!
<joelteon>
i've got a flight in 6 hours
<joelteon>
bit too late to go to bed
<devyn>
haha
<devyn>
I don't want to go to bed for a few hours
<devyn>
so
<purr>
<Willox> Everything is possible when you have windows
<whitequark>
well, where do you think I got the burning cheese link from
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<joelteon>
what color iphone should i get
<joelteon>
i like the champagne colored one
<devyn>
not an iphone
<joelteon>
ight champagne it is
<cuttle>
devyn: what
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi
<cuttle>
alexgordon: hi
<devyn>
cuttle: the non-iphone iphone
<cuttle>
devyn: why
<devyn>
I'm kidding. I just don't really like iPhones
<cuttle>
the only non iphone i would get would be a pre with an ecosystem to go with it
<cuttle>
androids are like iphone minus polish
<cuttle>
windows has a lot more polish, i'd probably enjoy a windows phone
<devyn>
I don't really mind the lack of polish... the open source community around Android is just so good
<devyn>
and it's not like it's ugly anymore
<devyn>
it's not as refined in UI but it makes up for that on the backend
<devyn>
perhaps most users don't care about that, but I do
<cuttle>
well yeah but you would use like
<cuttle>
linux on the desktop
<cuttle>
and vim and emacs for daily use
<cuttle>
and shit
<cuttle>
and open/libreoffice
<devyn>
no. I would not use libreoffice lol
<purr>
lol
<cuttle>
i cannot stand to use any of those things on a daily basis
<devyn>
I use Google Drive for that stuff
<cuttle>
also can't stand to use google docs
<devyn>
well, what do you use, and why is it better?
<cuttle>
pages
<cuttle>
lol
<devyn>
what do you like better about it? what do you feel Google Docs is missing?
<cuttle>
i really don't have much use for the cloudness of docs
<cuttle>
i used docs and hated it for a few months while i was between laptops
<cuttle>
when i have an iphone i'll probably use icloud and pages
<cuttle>
google docs is
<cuttle>
ugly
<cuttle>
hacky
<cuttle>
unpolished
<cuttle>
hard to get things done
<cuttle>
try to make an outline for example
<cuttle>
it's *shit*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all.
<devyn>
um, multi-level unordered list? not that hard to do
<cuttle>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<cuttle>
devyn: yes
<cuttle>
devyn: that is how you do it, and it is absolute shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've got something I want to throw out real quick, before getting back to Real Life:
<devyn>
cuttle: okay, so how does Pages do it better?
<cuttle>
devyn: just in every way possible
<devyn>
that is so specific /s
<cuttle>
first of all
<cuttle>
you backspace when you're two levels into a list
<cuttle>
and it makes you
<cuttle>
- not in a list
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Step 1. Create a programming language where *APIs*, not ‘modules’ (or files or inclusion-points or …), are versioned. Ideally, make it granular down to the individual methods and arguments, if the user wishes.
<cuttle>
- indented one level
<cuttle>
like what the shit
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: problem: api can be identical but backend functionality can change radically
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: yes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I don't mean, like, the API calls.
<cuttle>
devyn: also like, kerning and shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I mean versioning *at the API level*.
<cuttle>
devyn: just tends to look like shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
say, “This API changed, so we're incrementing its version.” I don't mean you call into it differently, just that something affected it.
<cuttle>
oh ok
<devyn>
cuttle: huh? gDocs expects you to shift-tab or tab to outdent/indent... that's kind of the standard
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Step 2. Treat dependency resolution as *network distribution*. Vector clocks as version identifiers and such, instead of fucking semver bullshit.
<cuttle>
devyn: yes but tell me one situation when that is *ever* desired behavior
<devyn>
cuttle: what is desired behavior? I'm not quite sure what you were saying
<cuttle>
you're expected to shift-tab so if you backspace, it does something that is 100% completely useless
<cuttle>
not nothing, something that is useless
<devyn>
ok, let me check what it does when I backspace
<devyn>
because I can't say I ever have
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ah sounds fucking awesome
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(Foo updated from 1 to 2, but Bar also monkey-patched an API provided by Foo v1? Detectable, resolvable, automatically.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
who the fuck uses shift-tab for outdenting.
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah sounds like a versioning/packaging system I wouldn't fucking hate
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want something where the package-manager has *insight* into WHAT YOU USE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and then every time you update anything (and this shouldn't be far-out sounding, and it's disappointing that it is), the package-manager should *enumerate* for you, every single change you need to pay attention to.
<devyn>
cuttle: ah, I see what that does. yeah that's weird. I think I understand why and it's not because it was intentional but rather because they neglected to do something
<cuttle>
devyn: and it's a microcosm of the entire platform
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
what cuttle said. Google Docs is just, terrible.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
in so many little horrible ways.
<devyn>
I don't tend to use WYSIWYG editors anyway
<cuttle>
hahahah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'd *like* to see some sort of git/hg/svn/etc integration: when an API is changed (i.e. the vector-clock identifying the version is incremented), it should be related to the changesets that caused it,
<cuttle>
conversation stopper
<devyn>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
allowing us to grab: history leading up to that point, description, author/changer, date/time …
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
etcetcetc.
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i want something like git, that doesn't suck
<cuttle>
like sure git is great
<cuttle>
but it hurts my brain
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
agreed.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
git's great.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but it's not user-friendly.
<cuttle>
not as in confusing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I hear hg is that.
<cuttle>
but as in
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but GitHub is all that matters.
<cuttle>
hg is just
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
git is … irrelevant.
<cuttle>
different-from-git-in-arbitrary-ways
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
<whatever backs GitHub> is what matters.
* cuttle
nods
<cuttle>
linus hates github xD
<cuttle>
linus is such a fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
have you seen dominictarr's dat?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
linus ain't *that* much of a fuck
<cuttle>
nope
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
he's an Elliott >:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and, like an Elliott, he can sometimes be wrong, and often be opinionated. ;)
<cuttle>
:P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
anyway. bbl.
<cuttle>
aight
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: like the idea
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: have fun in real life
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
one of you go dive into deciding how we can Win The Internet by treating dependency resolution with distributed-system know-how.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'k?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
'k.
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: where to see dominictarr's dat