sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<piano7>
Has there been any significant research on stable coins? I already know of Maker.
<sipa>
stable coins?
<piano7>
cryptocurrencies that are less prone to volatility
<sipa>
that purely depend on how they're used
<sipa>
value comes from usage, not from the definition of the currency itself
<piano7>
There are ideas of desiging protocols that can approach tagging the value to a determined amount
<piano7>
for example, Maker uses collateral to try to absorb the volatility
<sipa>
that relies on a trusted party
<piano7>
well some do yeah, like tether is a good example of a stable coin that relies on central trusted party
<sipa>
but there is nothing interesting about tether
<maaku>
piano7: what you are looking at is called a synthetic asset. that might get you some google results
<maaku>
it's kinda off-topic here though because there isn't really any interesting crypto or theory that goes into it
<sipa>
it's just a digitized token for which an issuer guarantees an exchange rate with the dollar
<mryandao>
there's freicoin that bakes dumurrage
<sipa>
there is no reason why tether even needs to be a blockchain
<piano7>
I agree about tether
<mryandao>
*demurrage.
<sipa>
piano7: same is true for anything
<piano7>
I'm more interested in research about decentralized stable coins
<sipa>
you can't define value within the system itself
<sipa>
that's just nonsense
<piano7>
look into Maker it's what their whole project is trying to do
<mryandao>
i believe at some point there was some discussion on UTXO expiration/evaporation for bitcoin?
<maaku>
not for everything.. there are synthetic asset constructs which attempt to peg to external values without actually having a single third party guarantee the peg
<mryandao>
so lost coins can be recovered eventually by miners
<sipa>
piano7: looks like total ICO scammyness to me
<sipa>
mryandao: terrible incentives
<mryandao>
sipa: i suppose miners can just refuse to confirm then wait for your UTXO to evaporate
<mryandao>
lol
<sipa>
yup.
<maaku>
they do so by constructs similar to a prediction market -- you buy/sell futures in a market, which informs inflation. only works if you assume most participants are honest and no one tries to corner the market
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<maaku>
also has the same incentive problems -- if inflation is controlled by what's visible on chain, then block txs to make the market one-sided, resulting in inflation to miners
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<bsm117532>
"stability" is a red herring that for some reason finance types buy into. No assets are stable. Even fiat currencies have wonky swings.
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<bsm117532>
Instead of achieving stability by pegging (which has a failure condition where collateral runs out), it should be achieved by having a robust derivatives market.
<bsm117532>
The ability to place orders on *both* sides of the market allows more effective arbitrage and damps price swings.
<bsm117532>
On another topic...
<bsm117532>
I'm very excited by the bulletproofs paper. But, they focused mostly on proof size rather than speed. Has anyone done any benchmarks comparing to zkSNARKS or other ZKP systems?
<bsm117532>
Also what's the status of the code, is it available yet? (andytoshi, gmaxwell, sipa)
<bsm117532>
piano7: that's funny...I actually put an interest rate into the satoshi code a while back. But this manipulation only affects *perception* not any of the economic in/outputs, and therefore will only affect price stability for irrational market participants.
<bsm117532>
The divisibility in bitcoin is sufficient though. This is just an overall normalization factor.
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<sipa>
bsm117532: bulletproofs just need a DLP hard group
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