sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gougee>
I sincerely hope i don't sound dumb here. Ive been on irc for ages and watched btc since the begining but i simply don't understand what is happening here. I have 4 btc w coinbase and they sent me an email saying that they are holding my btc in bitcoin cash as well. What does this mean? I am a poorfuc and this shit freaks me out cause i don't understand what they are doing...
<gougee>
Anyone here that can help me understand?
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<JackH>
#bitcoin is better
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<Taek>
luke-jr: I can say with confidence that blake is a suboptimal choice for an ASIC-friendly algorithm
<Taek>
The problem is that it contains both rotates and additions, both of which are difficult to implement optimally in hardware.
<Taek>
SHA3 on the other hand doesn't have as many constructions which cause headaches for ASIC designers
<sipa>
my very vague ideas about constructing a PoW function are that you should use a very cheap but large non-cryptographic expansion stage first on the block header
<sipa>
and then use a cryptographic hash function on the expansion
<sipa>
by making the block header effectively affect the cryptographic hash function's input many times, the ability to optimize for specific values in it is reduced
<sipa>
i also think that PoW changes are a very nuclear option, and not something to consider in the short term
<sipa>
though havin research available won't hurt
<Taek>
sipa: I don't know a ton about secure hash function design, but my feeling is that you'd want a bunch (like thousands) of really simple rounds which are basically just hardcoded s-boxes for a really wide input
<Taek>
ASICs aren't restricted to doing 64bit operations the way normal CPUs are. From a design perspective, as long as you stick to simple bitwise operations it's really easy to have registers that are multiple kb large
<Taek>
I'm also strongly against a PoW change. Imo you should only ever do it if it becomes transparently obvious that Bitcoin won't survive without one.
<sipa>
the concerns a PoW function has are different from a hash function
<sipa>
the only thing that makes hash function design hard these days seems to be performance
<sipa>
and losing a factor 100 in performance for PoW doesn't sound like a big deal
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<esotericnonsense>
jumping in here as someone who hasn't designed this sort of circuitry, it seems to me that what is meant by 'asic-friendly' in this context is not really related to the performance
<esotericnonsense>
e.g. it doesn't really matter how much faster the optimal ASIC is vs. the optimal CPU/GPU algorithm
<esotericnonsense>
what seems more relevant is that there aren't non-obvious optimisations that result in some future generation of hardware being far faster than the previous
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<esotericnonsense>
the speed is essentially irrelevant I would think as long as verification isn't too low (I guess there would be some silly bound on performance somewhere, if one round of hashing took ten seconds it wouldn't be 'progress free' for example)
<esotericnonsense>
slow*
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<sipa>
esotericnonsense: indeed, the only goal is removing non-obvious optimjzsations
<sipa>
you want the implementation to be as straightforward as possible
<sipa>
esotericnonsense: i'd say checking PoW can't take more than a millisecond or so
<sipa>
but it doesn't have to be a microsecond like it is now
<esotericnonsense>
we also overload the PoW at the moment (by using the same function for PoW and for identifying the block)
<esotericnonsense>
it's not obvious to me that it's necessary to do that, just simpler
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<sipa>
esotericnonsense: if PoW checking is more expensive it'd be better to not reuse it for hashing