sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<NewLiberty>
@yoga14 that attack vector is why BTC does not have larger block sizes yet.
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<bsm117532>
andytoshi: Yes I've been thinking a lot about combining Mimble wimble and a DAG/braid structure. But the way I've been thinking about it, one needs to do conflict resolution (double-spend) at the individual transaction level. Once you aggregate, a single double-spend can "poison" a larger set of transactions with which it gets aggregated.
<bsm117532>
This seems to be an insurmountable obstacle...I don't see any way to untangle a double spend without destroying the privacy-preserving features of aggregation.
<amiller_>
andytoshi, this looks cool
<amiller_>
andytoshi, it's really useful you wrote out all the cryptography this way
<amiller_>
i'm confused why there is no high level explanation of the goal
<amiller_>
i think the goals for this are a combination of scalability and privacy
<amiller_>
i think the privacy only kicks in when miners "forget" information that they all had to have and validate
<amiller_>
i can see how that is useful for privacy, but that's the key intuition for how privacy is achieved, the crypto protocol on its own doesn't make it private
<andytoshi>
sorry amiller_, because the high level stuff was stuff i knew would work .. so i naturally wrote out the hard stuff to avoid wasting time :)
<amiller_>
for scalability i don't understand the interaction between this compact chain and the orgiinal chain
<andytoshi>
you are correct about miners needing to "forget", i think at this point getting any privacy out of the aggregation is sorta open
<amiller_>
how is the compact chain different than just a node that only keeps the UTXO state and the most recent thousand blocks or whatever to handle short forks?
<andytoshi>
amiller_: the difference is that all transactions are still attached to a chain that has expected work-to-rewrite that's the same as the original chain
<andytoshi>
you can imagine a bitcoin node just snapshotting the state at blockheight-1000 and giving this to a user, this is obviously bad .. then you can imagine if blocks committed to utxoset, then this isn't nearly as bad (someone would have to rewrite the 1000 blocks to lie)
<andytoshi>
but even in that scenario, rewriting the -whole chain- for 1000 blocks work will get increasingly enticing
<andytoshi>
in this scheme, would-be forgers expect to do as much work as rewriting the chain (though they might get lucky with nontrivial probability), which keeps the incentives aligned
<andytoshi>
amiller_: gimme 2 minutes, i'll refresh the doc, i've written a bit of high-level stuff
<amiller_>
ok
<amiller_>
cool
<andytoshi>
kk same URL should have a new section 2.1 with some high-level stuff
<andytoshi>
(and some of the crypto is updated to use assymetric pairings and co-CDH, but this is less interesting and still not done)
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<amiller_>
ls
<amiller_>
sorry
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<andytoshi>
in the morning i will add a section 2.2 which outlines the desired scalability and talks about 'hooks' for privacy (this could be so private if only we could somehow avoid publishing X data at any point, etc) since i don't have good specific ideas for privacy beyond CT
<amiller_>
ok this is sorta cool
<amiller_>
i think what you are saying is that there is a sort of layered trust model,
<andytoshi>
a MVP scheme greg suggested was to have miners advertise tor hidden services and you send txes to them and they aggregate, then in theory each block's real contents are only known to single miners, and if they don't collude you get good hiding
<amiller_>
where there is an attack that could cause double spends but couldn't cause "inflation"
<amiller_>
if there are no 51% attackers or ridiculous network partitions ever, then these basically coincide in the other attacks they prevent
<andytoshi>
i think that's roughly it .. i'm not sure what you mean by "an attack that could cause double spends" beyond a 51% attack
<amiller_>
but if there is a temporary 51% attacker that causes some long fork, they would be able to print infinite money that SPV clients would accept
<amiller_>
even if with UTXO commitments
<andytoshi>
well they'd be able to print as much money as exists for a chain of that length..
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<amiller_>
however with mimble-wimble, they wouldn't be able to produce that infinite money
<andytoshi>
they can't print infinite money under any circumstances
<andytoshi>
right
<amiller_>
you can print infinite money if you are attacking a SPV merchant
<amiller_>
and have 51%
<andytoshi>
here you can give a SPV merchant a single pairing to verify to ensure no inflation
<andytoshi>
oh, such a merchant would still need to verify the whole utxoset to do what i'm thinking
<andytoshi>
but one thing this sinking signature scheme gets you is that _every transaction ever_ signs the blockheight 0, and you can aggregate all those signatures into one, and this single signature proves that every transaction was noninflationary
<andytoshi>
this is an extreme use of the sinking signature construction
<andytoshi>
so you expect total_coins*H + all_transactions'_excess = sum_of_utxos ... you want to ensure that the excess is some multiple of G (no coins hidden in there) .. you can be assured of this by the aggregated signature
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<andytoshi>
(this extreme SPV is a bit silly in mimblewimble tho, if you do the compact-SPV you get this expected-value stuff and "no transactions can be replaced without rewriting their block" and it takes like a meg of data and 20 core-seconds to verify all the pairings, by my estimate)
<andytoshi>
err, not compact-SPV, compact chain
<andytoshi>
what i'm calling "full mimblewimble security"
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<oz0ne>
anyone awake?
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<kanzure>
amiller_: miners don't need to forget the information; in most cases, if you have p2p-network-level transaction aggregation, the miners will not have the data in the first place. (i guess you mean "miners might record their mempools" and in that case, what you really need is to have someone include your transaction in an aggregation without sending it to the flood network, right?)
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<andytoshi>
kanzure: if you do that naively you run into lots of DoS attacks .. e.g. i can create a series of conflicting transactions, and every tx that flows by me i aggregate another conflict onto
<andytoshi>
the result is that i've basically killed most of the transactions on the network since they can't be combined into a single block
<andytoshi>
i'm not sure how to deal with this except by something gross like requiring transactions be signed by their outputs (as an IsStandard rule, not a consensus one), so on the p2p layer you can't noninteractively combine
<andytoshi>
or having users directly communicate unmerged transactions to miners, which then requires miners to forget
<andytoshi>
or having specific nodes (like in dash(?)) that are responsible for merging, but then you've got the usual SPOF-or-sybil problem
<andytoshi>
what i'd really like is some algebraic way to combine transactions that overlap, but this is hard (maybe there's some reason it's impossible)
<bsm117532>
You need some kind of zero-knowledge mechanism to resolve double-spends, or you'll destroy all the advantage of aggregation.
<andytoshi>
what?
<bsm117532>
I have no idea how to do this.
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<bsm117532>
I see two ways out of this: (1) have miners hold on to individual (non-aggregated) transactions so that in the event of a double-spend, they can create a new aggregation that resolves the double spend.
<bsm117532>
(2) Use a signature aggregation technique that is not one-way: so that a double-spend signature could be "subtracted out".
<bsm117532>
Either case opens up a new form of attack: de-anonymizing other transactions by issuing a stream of low-value double-spends.
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<bsm117532>
+1 petertodd. Keys should never have "expiration" dates. They should have revocation dates, and a date-range of validity instead.
<petertodd>
"expiration" dates might be the most misleading terminology in all of PGP...
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<bsm117532>
It's not just PGP though, it's all common usage of PKI (certificates, etc). They all want an expiration date. We're supposed to guess when the key will be compromised.
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<maaku>
bsm117532: it's perfectly reasonable to plan key rotations in advance...
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<bsm117532>
Why do you want to rotate keys in the first place? Only because you don't know when they get compromised. There are better ways to deal with that.
<maaku>
there are many organizational and situational reasons for key rotation, on or off schedule
<bsm117532>
What's a reason for an "on-schedule" key rotation? (absent another event, like server replacement)
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<amiller>
andytoshi, your site looks down :(
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