sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<waxwing>
Taek: why not just have a simple program that schedules joining a tumble session (that themselves are scheduled one per day or per hour or whatever)? "give to the tumblebank" sounds too much like reverting to old-fashioned centralized mixers, no?
<waxwing>
("tumble session" i meant "tumblebit classic tumbler mode")
<Taek>
well, the nice thing about tumblebank is that it can't walk away with the money, and doesn't know who you are. So it's better than a traditional mixer in that worst case your tumble attempt fails.
<waxwing>
well yes i understood that you meant tumblebit, it seems a very workable model to me, i just think in what the paper describes as "classic tumbler mode" you could easily just join e.g. one tumble per day or whatever.
<Taek>
right but that adds transaction volume
<waxwing>
so the refund timeout is very long? (in your idea)
<Taek>
yeah it'd be weeks or more
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<bsm1175321>
I've been thinking a lot about the collision between tumblers and double-spends. A double-spender could do a lot of harm, by causing his txn to be mixed with innocent non-double spenders.
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<bsm1175321>
Basically, that a mixer participant can cheaply force a reorg of a bunch of transactions that have nothing to do with the double-spend. So, users of remixers should probably take this into account when considering whether their transaction is "confirmed" -- the probability of a reorg is higher, when the payer is using a mixer.
<nsh>
heh
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<Taek>
that's a good point.
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<katu>
bsm1175321: try to think about profit motive. what would double spender gain from this?
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<nsh>
disruption of fixing is an end in itself to certain actors
<nsh>
*mixing
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<katu>
for starters, you dont have control how the mix tx propagates
<katu>
as everyone broadcasts it
<katu>
second, you can join the mix pool and simply don't reply to DoS
<katu>
im assuming coinjoin type mixers
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<bsm1175321>
My argument is that *any* double-spend by any other remixer participant turns your txn into a double-spend.
<nsh>
contagion?
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<katu>
bsm1175321: yes, the mix tx can definitely revert
<katu>
but same can happen even without doublespend
<katu>
i just dont see any point
<katu>
*unless* somebody is so retarded to "penalize" doublespends
<katu>
which is completely and utterly hopeless
<bsm1175321>
Good point. Well I've been thinking about braids/dags in which the double-spend can be detected/reverted without polluting everything else in the block.
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<nsh>
'Tezos is the first, and only blockchain implementation operating with decentralized governance.' -- https://tezos.com/
<nsh>
(generally the cryptographic or security engineering competency of an altcoin is inversely proportional to the flashiness of the web presence)
<bsm1175321>
Can it also ask voters if they know dick all about software engineering or crypto?
<nsh>
:)
<bsm1175321>
I typed to slow, nsh beat me to the punchline.
<nsh>
these guys look like language/typesystem wonks. might be vaguely interesting :)
<katu>
nsh: im still waiting for nomic blockchain
<katu>
is that it?
<nsh>
as in the game nomic?
<katu>
yea, this looks like a nomic
<katu>
but sadly not for consensus rules
<katu>
boring
<nsh>
there was a proposal for a blockchain where the consensus or other logic was alterable by participants
<nsh>
not sure i recall enough to find it again quickly though
<bsm1175321>
There's this bizarre notion out there that if we just "poll the sheeple" everything will turn out okay, right?!?!? Let me introduce you to my friend, Byzantine...
<nsh>
allowing for stability to arise from a dynamic-equilibrium-finding process rather than a priori engineering is an interesting idea
<nsh>
and possible viable
<katu>
nsh: yea, its a pretty tough thing to implement
<katu>
as you need the ability to restart from old forks when current consensus decides to jump back in time (because everybody agreed current rules just screwed the utxo)
<katu>
and it gets all sorts of self referential, quite not unlike various PoS attacks
<nsh>
as natural languages evolve through usage and affect-charge accrual and results in partial and overlapping covering sets of roughly-consensuated meaning, it's not inconceivable at least
<bsm1175321>
Systems do not, in general, to find dynamic equilibrium. Even the simple predator/prey problem has very unpredictable behavior.
<nsh>
but there's a lot more wiggle-room in how a sentence is parsed than how a transaction is processed
* nsh
nods
<nsh>
utterance i should say, to avoid literalism
<adlai>
there's zennet/tauchain, also the project of typesystem monks
<nsh>
hmm
<katu>
tezos src looks fun though
<katu>
the amendable consensus code is proposed in ml, switch on majority. it all suffers from horrible NaS-like problems
<katu>
but better than playing a nomic over mailing list i suppose :)
<bsm1175321>
They seem to really dislike a "roundtable", whatever that is...
<bsm1175321>
I can only assume they meant round-robin...
<bsm1175321>
Or maybe duck-duck-goose?
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<cjd>
and when they get from 5 qbits to a few thousand
<cjd>
word on the street is it's a few decades off
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<NewLiberty>
We don't even know enough about what quantum computing will do to determine what algos might not succumb to it.
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<wumpus>
I don't know about you, but I'm getting quite sick of all the 'oh no all current cryptosystems are dead' quantum-computing related FUD, I'd wish they'd either just get the thing working or shut up about it until I'm dead :)
<sipa>
Quantun computing is trading exponential runtime for exponential engineering time.
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<Eliel>
sipa: I might want to quote that someday somewhere :)
<sipa>
i don't know from whom i got ot
<wumpus>
yes good quote
<sipa>
it may also turn out to be completely false
<cjd>
lol excellent quote
<sipa>
i'm sure decades ago people thought the same about traditional computing chip design
<Eliel>
I suppose the computing chip turned out to be useful in improving computing chips faster
<cjd>
yup HDL language
<kanzure>
is speculative exccution an improvement though? hehe
<nsh>
it's possible that quantum algorithmics requires a jump in human mathematical or physical understanding or intuition that technological and materials science accelerating gains cannot provide
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<gmaxwell>
"oh crap, people turned our time server into a cryptocurrency."
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<bsm117532>
FWIW, the best possible inherent resolution of bitcoin, braids, or a similar system as a clock is given by the time to cross the network (aka orphan rate), so ~5s (due to Bitcoin's randomly interconnected p2p network). A bit of averaging heuristics could get this down below a second, but not a heck of a lot better than that.
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<petertodd>
gmaxwell: interesting! I actually proposed that a few years back on the cyrptography mailing list
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: although, I proposed the version w/ opentimestamps so it could scale indefinitely
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: ah, I see, yeah, they're doing a merkle tree too - good
<bsm117532>
How many "honest" roughtime servers are required? How many roughtime servers does an attacker need to spin up to usefully modify someone's clock? And what's the cost of that?
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<kanzure>
"Very briefly: using some tricks we believe that it's viable to deploy servers that sign a client-chosen nonce and timestamp on demand. Once you have several of these servers, clients can generate their nonces by hashing replies from other servers with some entropy. That proves that a nonce was created after the reply was received. Clients maintain a chain of nonces and replies and, if a server misbehaves, can use replies from several ...
<kanzure>
... other servers to prove and report it."
<bsm117532>
The economic cost of introducing a false timestamp in Bitcoin is superior to their vauge notion of an ecosystem of trusted servers and human auditing of fraud proofs, IMHO.
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<petertodd>
bsm117532: yeah, but they're aiming for 10 second accuracy; bitcoin's accuracy is more like hours
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<bsm117532>
That time resolution has absolutely nothing to do with a security model.
<cjd>
10 second accuracy, that's pretty nice
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<petertodd>
bsm117532: yes it does - 10 second accuracy probably can't be done in a decentralized system like Bitcoin
<cjd>
annoyingly we could just have one really honest guy sign all of the bitcoin blocks and if he ever signed a double-spend you could prove it
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