#bitcoin-wizards on 2016-09-11 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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00:07 <so> how does sharding differ from atomic cross chain swaps?

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00:09 <so> sidechain ~ shardchain

00:10 <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/

00:10 <kanzure> https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf

00:10 <kanzure> http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/

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00:48 <so> for example, ethereum is a two-shard system right now

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01:01 <bsm1175321> I can't understand WTF the word salad by Vlad is about.

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01:03 <so> hear hear

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01:15 <so> bob, is the advantage of your impromptu sharding proposal that some nodes wouldn't need to store the entire chain?

01:16 <so> or maybe the idea is that you'd propose simultaneously mining all partitions for N coinbases per block?

01:21 <so> maybe there's a safe way to merge-mine with the right shard ratio

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01:45 <amiller> what kind of security guarantees do you preserve, when nodes don't store the entire chain

01:45 <amiller> do you still try to guarantee that all the chains are kept available and consistent

01:46 <so> I'm assuming his impromptu proposal would mean they SPV and verify sometimes

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01:49 <katu> bsm1175321: peter todd to the rescue, https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011817.html

01:49 <katu> kanzure: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin is dead

01:49 <kanzure> blame bsm1175321

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01:50 <katu> damn that was fast

01:50 <katu> well, whoever you are, it's still in google cache

01:53 <kanzure> speed force, and such.

02:09 <bsm1175321> so: That's the definition of sharding, not having to retain the entire UTXO set.

02:10 <so> isn't that also true of another chain?

02:10 <so> or even a sidechain?

02:10 <bsm1175321> We moved our blog to Medium, the ELI5 of blogs: https://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin-e77bd5feebf5

02:11 <bsm1175321> Medium insists on appending bullshit at the end of your URLs and preventing you from using most modern elements in your blog. (like SVG)

02:11 <bsm1175321> so: I'm not sure what you mean...

02:12 <so> what can you accomplish with sharding that isn't accomplished with cross chain swaps?

02:13 <bsm1175321> Cross chain swaps are trading one asset for another -- the price floats. Sharding is a division of labor, there's no "price" associated with a "shard".

02:15 <so> if the throughput is divided then some shards are weaker than others? why should they be equally valuable?

02:16 <cjd> you could use a pegged price to make the sidechain effectively behave as a shard...

02:16 <cjd> but the pegging stuff does not sound like it will work WRT incentives

02:16 <cjd> basically without issuing a shitcoin, there is no incentive to mine - even a sidechain

02:17 <so> for instance in ether the shard discussions seem to be related to the observation that they're running the same instructions on all machines, so maybe they could run a verification on a fraction as long as one verifier is honest

02:18 <cjd> or 1 machine

02:18 <cjd> but that's basically PoS in a nutshell since the creators of a PoS currency will just keep most of the coin anyway so they can run it

02:19 <so> in the bitcoin context a similar set of observations lead to related chains or attempts to use the hash throughput more efficiently

02:21 <cjd> there is a highly annoying realization that you can't proove against double-spends without paying an enormous amount on validation, and any validation which can be skipped will be

02:22 <cjd> sidechains which are hard-pegged to BTC will not be merge-mined unless they somehow pay off the miners... This is assuming miners are selfish agents, which has been untrue in the past

02:36 <bsm1175321> shards wouldn't be equally "valuable" -- the idea is that if you're willing to contribute 1GB of disk space to the UTXO set, in a bitcoind node, you should be able to store and validate the corresponding fraction.

02:37 <bsm1175321> It's a pure CS problem, not an economic problem. How to incentize the shard holders is relevant as well.

02:37 <so> shard is then SPV++?

02:38 <so> there are many ways to save space, though

02:38 <bsm1175321> In a way, yes. The hard part is proving to shard holders that the *rest* of the UTXO space is consistent/valid.

02:39 <Taek> so: with sharding, ideally you can receive a payment from any shard and still know with absolute certainty that the payment is valid

02:39 <Taek> but you don't have to validate every shard yourself, only a few of them

02:39 <Taek> or maybe even none of them

02:40 <Taek> maybe you validate some other piece of data that somehow allows you to believe that none of the shards have been compromised

02:40 <so> look for andrew's question above

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02:41 <Taek> Consistency is definintely a requirement

02:41 <Taek> I hadn't really though about sacrificing availability to achieve sharding

02:42 <Taek> oh, though eventually availability is definitely also a requirement

02:42 <Taek> e.g. you can have temporary unavailability, but a permanently unavailable system is useless as a currency / store-of-value

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03:12 <Taek> There was a paper (or maybe just a blog post?) recently that pointed out the fact that if your 6 confirmations take a long time, security is actually lower than if they take a short amount of time

03:12 <Taek> because if they take a while, your theoretical attacker has more time to mine 6 competing confirmations

03:13 <Taek> I would be grateful if someone could link me to that

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03:20 <so> any slowdown suggests a drop in hashrate => less security

03:23 <Taek> it's reasonable that the slowdown also happens just due to randomness, in this case security is also still reduced

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13:13 <vega4> In order to determine a valid blockchain BTC uses the concept of total expected worked spent on building a given chain; that seems clear and solid; now lets put on plate the subject of Coin Age. I'm confused. It seems that Peercoin utilizes Coin Age to determine a valid history of things. I wonder. If a currency uses Proof-Of-Stake to reach consenus, what prevents an attacker to generate branches with arbitrary timestam

13:13 <vega4> is only valid for hybrid PoW/PoS mechanisms, as far as reaching consensus goes.

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19:49 <FNinTak> Related to the sharding discussion - More efficient Proof of Space

19:49 <FNinTak> http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/333.pdf

19:50 <FNinTak> Related to sharding specifically because verifying these proofs requires non-trivial resources

19:51 <FNinTak> Either the verifier also stores the full graph (which is massive), or

19:51 <FNinTak> graph + path commitments are published and then opened; but even that is multiple MBs

19:52 <FNinTak> However, in the context of a cryptocurrency, the graph is static - So sharding verification amongst full nodes/verifiers would be very useful

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19:57 <vega4> related to my own question - as of now, I can answer myself that PoS currencies introduce checkpoints broadcasted from a trusted authority, therefore just creating the illusion of being distributed. I'm ok with Bitcoin's PoW and their checkpoints it would be hard enough without these hardcoded checkpoints in BTC's case.

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