sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<petertodd>
amiller: one of these days I should write up a proof-of-stake proposal, and at the top make it 110% clear what assumptions I need to make it work :)
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<vega4>
am I the only one who just after reading the title provably secure *PoS* wants to smash his head onto a wall?
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<vega4>
Bitcoin is centralized. there are two mining pool who alone would be able to perform 51% attack, and people still want to prove that PoS is safe, seems like every nitch of people will find their God.
<katu>
petertodd: i think you once promised to write formal proof that PoS can work with the only assumption being one has a random oracle for timestamps (ie track bitcoin chain for those)
<vega4>
with one random oracle we can setup a database, sinle server and forget about the consensus alltogether
<katu>
no.
<katu>
vega4: the timestamp server provided by bitcoin is distributed / decentralized.
<katu>
and there is no other known (to me) way to replicate property of bitcoin NUMS
<vega4>
ok then, I thought about a time stamp server, if we think about entity such as 'distributed timestamp' server the term does not hold to what I have in mind when thinking about 'time stamp server'
<katu>
time stamp server is just generic term, both centralized and decentralized
<vega4>
what do you mean by a time stamp server in the context of BTC then
<katu>
both are stimm timestamp servers. anyhow, the point is to prove whether it can be used outside of bitcoin, or not.
<vega4>
as far as I'm concerned there is no notion of time in btc. only the order of blocks. and if you consider a TSS as disteibuted you need to trust the single entities, creating sort of a loop bla bla bla
<katu>
yes there is
<katu>
time is only arrow of time. future and past.
<katu>
you *can* tell whether hash happened before or after other hash from timestamp server.
<vega4>
true that is
<katu>
(and this hash is also stamped with actual time, but doesnt really need to be for it to be timestamp)
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<vega4>
"only assumption being one has a random oracle for timestamps"; sorry I come from crypto / math field. distibuted random oracle seems too abstract
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<katu>
yea, misleading term on my parn. lets call it 'NUMS oracle'
<katu>
*part
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<vega4>
I was thinking yesterday.. suppose World War 3 suddenly broke out. I was thinking like.. the price of BTC would have really skyrocketed.and then I thought about the security of a blockchain. suppose there would be a lot of cheaters by then. what I like about the proof-of-work is that no matter what happens. if one wanted to alter the history of transactions he would need to provide all of the proofs.imagine a situation i
<vega4>
each of them hold a HDD with a blockchain. one is poorely PoS and the other HDD is PoW. which one would you trust your items. you've got no internet connection at a given moment and the last block is from like 10 minuts ago.
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<katu>
vega4: whatever system can work with large latencies wins
<katu>
in case of total infrastructure collapse, real internet will be very low bandwidth and way too expensive. most of networking will be through high latency (but high capacity too) sneakernet
<vega4>
DTNs/MANETS are my active field :P
<katu>
nice
<katu>
which reminds me, are there some serious sources about propagation data?
<vega4>
actually, these fiedls got me into cryptocurencies recently
<katu>
one needs to do correct models, as its now too difficult to testnet in real world.
<vega4>
what do you mean by propagation data?
<katu>
all i have is ballparks about latencies, propagations, community graphs. these are mostly inferred from social networks, which is grossly misleading
<katu>
vega4: capacity and latency of a sneakernet in relation to distance
<vega4>
I guess that would depend on the actuall routing protocol
<vega4>
and medium characteristics
<katu>
routing is easy, this is about people movement.
<katu>
routing is pay-per-flood basically
<vega4>
ah so you mean the simplest viral dissemination
<vega4>
so what we are looking at is the propagation data for viral dissemination in case of movement model of people behavior. there was a paper on that
<katu>
its the only sensible way. you can route according to past contact, but that is inherently higher latency
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<katu>
vega4: neat. yeah, i think cdc studies generally seem like way to go
<katu>
but again, cell network radious work over larger distances than flu transmission
<katu>
*radios
<vega4>
actually, if you ask me... I wouldn't rely on the history of contatacts... there are a lot of different schools for routing in MANETs/DTNs same use history of node contatacts, others form into local zones and introduce border gateways
<vega4>
*some
<katu>
yea, all meshnet mostly deals with lan
<vega4>
locayt.com
<katu>
which is valid concern, for that lan to be high performant
<vega4>
one of the projects I've been working on
<katu>
you cant flood locally
<vega4>
put on halt
<katu>
vega4: for entertainment, social routing seem like natural fit to disseminate content.
<vega4>
I'll publish a paper soon; it will connect the world of cryptocurrencies and pocket-switched networking;)
<vega4>
that is why I'm here recently
<katu>
(ie not location based, but social network based regardless of distance - this operates on assumption that your tastes always matches some of your friends)
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<vega4>
need to develope a solutons which would handle lots of transaction is short time; BTC does 1-2/s
<vega4>
comapred to 2k/s in case of VISA and mastercard
<katu>
meh, the bandwidth discussions are sort of boring tbh
<vega4>
yeah but the thing is
<katu>
unless we're talking utxo compression / folding into some sort of tricky crypto structure
<vega4>
one needs incentive to route your data
<vega4>
and that's were things get interesting
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<katu>
regarding incentives, its quite similiar to internet p2p
<katu>
tit for tat and its eigen halo can go pretty long way
<vega4>
sure but imagine torrents where everyone earns BTC for sharing
<katu>
it is possible to cheat, but cheating physically is quite a blocker
<vega4>
or imagine cloud hosting where everyone could participate in cloud storage for BTC
<katu>
yes, i've looked both into eigenspeed and postorage.
<katu>
its doable, but scales poorly for mobile devices.
<katu>
because sneakernets have additionaly latency problem
<katu>
you need to reward speed of delivery
<katu>
not just "routing"
<katu>
vega4: so, if somebody travels back and forth between 2 hubs
<katu>
hes rewarded for that, as hes essential for those hubs to be connected
<vega4>
excatly; I think you will love to read my paper; I've spent long long recent months on this:P
<katu>
rewarding local hub communication is useless, because theres plenty of links
<katu>
vega4: i ended up with somewhat numerically unstable eigentrust, where opinion about high value nodes diffuses
<katu>
and those high value nodes provide semi-proof in that they actually permit this consensus to form
<vega4>
I gotta run, we will get back to this, if you would be willing to
<vega4>
katu: I've just looked up EigenSpeed couldn't find postorage. compared to eigenspeed I'm not concerned with bandwidth assesment or hardware layer at all. I'm just concerned with rewarding intermediares for they work on a higher layer of abstraction. the one who delivers first wins. and I want to ensure intermediaries that the data originator has 'paid' for the service.
<vega4>
there are also problems on how to prevent cheating adding fake intermediaries etc tec
<vega4>
while keeping a very disruptive envionment in mind
<vega4>
the name of the protocol is GRIDNET;d
<vega4>
awaiting my publication
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<katu>
vega4: postorage is different from eigenspeed
<katu>
postorage is provable consensus, eigen protocols are opinion diffusion and reconcilation
<katu>
as gmaxwell said, eigen is an nice excercise in numerical instability :D
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